The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode - #366 - Dr. Michael Greger

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Michael Greger
In all the major trials that have been done, you know, the p- people on average start out obese and at the end of the trial or when the drug stops working, uh, after about a year the drug completely stops, or you don't lose any more weight, you stay on for the rest of your life. Obesity so dramatically decreases one's lifespan, uh, reducing the life expectancy as much as six or seven years.

And like bariatric surgery, I think these GLP-1 agonists should be considered as a last resort for those unwilling or unable to treat the cause of their obesity, which is that people eat too much crap.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Oh my goodness, friends, what an honor it is to be back with the legendary Dr. Michael Greger. I really love having people on this show who come from a very, very whole foods, plant-based perspective because I know we often have a lot of conversations that are more keto leaning or paleo leaning and meat inclusive and high protein. So it's nice to get different perspectives on everything. I've been reading Dr. Greger's work for years, and definitely check out his new documentary, How Not To Die. In today's episode, we dive into so many topics. We talk about what it actually looks like when plaque builds up in your arteries, the role of fraud in scientific research, whether or not eating animal products is the equivalent of a vegan junk food diet, engaging in activism when it comes to health change, problems with the evolutionary argument when it comes to the ideal diet that we should be eating, whether or not GLP-1 agonists are a good thing, how we can actually make change when it comes to the food available based on socioeconomic status and so much more.

The show notes for today's episode will be at melonieavalon.com/how not to die. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram Find Me Friday announcement post, and again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things. Without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr. Michael Greger. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about today's conversation. It is with a legend in the health world, somebody that I have been following for years and years and years. He's been on the show before. He's back for his new documentary. So the backstory on this conversation, and I, I talked about this a little bit last time, but I've been following the work of Dr. Michael Greger for, for so long. I even-- And I told him this last time, but I even did a, like a nutrition training course, and they had me watch DVDs of his, of his DVDs from NutritionFacts so I could learn all the things. And then since then, I read all of his New York Times bestselling books. He has so many. So he has How Not To Die, How Not To Age, the How Not To Age Cookbook, How Not To Diet, and that's only some of them.

Melanie Avalon
And so like I said, he's here now because he has a new documentary, How Not To Die. And friends, it's actually free. So you can watch it completely free.

It's on Unchained TV. So I watched it there. You can watch it online. You can download an app that's very friendly for your cell phone, easy to watch. And this documentary, of course, has Dr. Michael Greger, and then it has so many people that you guys are probably familiar with, people like T. Colin Campbell, people that we've had on the show, the Sherzais, Dr. Ayesha and Dr. Dean Sherzai. It has Dr. Dean Ornish. That's only a few of the many incredible people who grace this documentary.

So I have so many questions, and Dr. Michael Greger, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Dr. Michael Greger
I'm so excited to be back.Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
So I actually went to film school at USC in LA, so I particularly appreciate the film medium. What was it like transforming your book into a documentary format?

Like, did you have, like, an exact idea of how you wanted it to go? Were you-- Like, what was it just like?

Dr. Michael Greger
This was so cool. So this came out-- So this is actually not my idea at all. But this, uh, philanthropist by the name of Jim Greenbaum, who's in the LA area, I think, he, you know, uh, is a big fan of my work and was like, "You know, we need to get your work, you know, out there more than it already is." And it's like there should be like, you know-- uh, so you're out in books, you're, you, you do a lot, you have this online presence, but there should be like a How Not To Die documentary. And I'm like, "Awesome." Great. I mean, 'cause I know documentaries have had a big impact on people kinda in this space, like the, you know, What The Health or Forks Over Knives or... And, like, that's just one way, you know. So it's basically just repackaging the content in a different medium to just expose to different audiences. I was like, "Oh my god, it's a fantastic idea." And he was like, "Great.Okay, I'll do it." And I'm like, "Great." And so I didn't hear for a while, and I just thought, "Oh, I guess it's just not, you know, happen-- Who knows what's going on?" But no, he was, you know, finding a director and, you know, getting other people to help out.And what it ended up being is because my original How Not To Die talk The presentation based on the book had this kind of, you know, interesting narrative arc.It was really just, well, you could kinda just stick to the script basically and just intersperse video of me giving the presentation with, you know, cuts to other experts and, you know, some kinda science background.And so that was just kind of the framework.So it just kinda naturally came about that, oh, all right, we already have kind of this hour-long presentation.Let's just kinda spice it up with all sorts of cool stuff that, you know, I can't do on stage, but oh, wow, we can do with a documentary.And, and so, you know, all sorts of people stepped up to help out, and so we just had a, like, a video team, you know, follow me around and video me just giving talks I would normally give.Like, I didn't actually...Oh, well, there was an interview filmed just for this, but beyond that it was just kind of me giving talks.But, you know, they interviewed my mom, and it was very cool.But this, this is years in the making.Maybe this is something I don't know about the documentary world, but like th- I know, like, the book- books always take a lot longer than thinks, than, uh, you think it will.But this, uh, so they've been working on this for years, but it finally came out, and perfect timing 'cause we, you know, we released in December, we released a 10th anniversary of How Not to Die, came out 2015, and so the- and so we had this updated version where I updated everything and added all sorts of new juicy stuff.And then they had this documentary come out just when it was...Like, we actually did not plan that.Um, uh, but what perfect timing.So it was a way to kinda, you know, remind people about the book.And so...And the question was, you know, do we, you know, get some streaming service to, like, do, do we try to sell it to, you know, whatever, Netflix or whatever?You know me.

Dr. Michael Greger
I want everything to be free for everybody, the broad- as possible reach. And so I was just like, "Well, let's just put it online to everybo- anyone who wants to host it or take it or do anything with it, take it. Do it," you know? So it's, like, on YouTube, the whole thing for free.

It's on our Nutrition Facts site. Other people have hosted it on their websites. The important thing is just getting this information to as many hands as possible.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, incredible. And it really is powerful, the visual medium, because one of the first things I was thinking about when I was watching it was, you know, I can read about plaque in arteries and I can read about all this stuff, but to actually see it, like, when you show the slides of the plaque, I was like, "Oh, I don't think I've ever seen this before."

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh my God, tho- those slides in particular, that's not just plaque in the, like, the coronary arteries. Those are cr- that's plaque in the cranial arteries. Those are arteries inside your brain, feeding your brain, and, and basically, you know, I contrast these, like, open, clean, beautiful arteries, which are just like a circle basically, versus what atherosclerosis in the head looks like, and it's just completely, almost completely closed off, narrowed down, clogged off with this kinda greasy, yellow-looking gunk. And it's just like, "What kind of arteries do you want in your head?" You know.And so talking about how, you know, those with, you know, cholesterol over 225, 25 times the odds of ending up with amyloid plaques in your brains 10 to 15 years later.So, you know, what's good for our hearts is good for our heads, and I was trying to...How do I c- encapsulate that in a visual way?And yeah, it was, the, those were slides.It was just straight pathology of, like, uh, people with disease, with, you know, clogs in their brain versus not.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. It's, it's really, really powerful. It's like we could just see all these things. It just gives you a whole new perspective.

And, and speaking of the plaques, I actually recently interviewed Charles Piller. He's the science journalist who cracked the story on fraud in Alzheimer's data research.

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh, juicy.Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh my goodness, what... That, that interview, like, changed my life, and reading his book changed my life because now I never can look the same way at scientific data, which... And, and just, like, research, and that's something that you talk about in the film, is, like, the role of funding and research and, you know, why we have... why certain ideas manifest the way they manifest. It's pretty, pretty concerning.

Are you hopeful? You, you talk about us being, like, in a transition window, comparing things to s- you know, the smoking industry in the past. How are you feeling now? Especially with, like, the new food pyramid. I'm dying to know what you think about that.

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh, God. Just when you're starting to get hopeful.

Yeah. So I'm actually coming out with a book on, on, like, how to read a research paper next year, where I'll be talking about some of the things. So basically, I mean, you know, here I am... I mean, basically what I do is try to lay out the best available balance of evidence on any particular topic, but that doesn't necessarily mean the evidence is particularly any good. It could be the best evidence. It may be the best we have. And look, you have to eat something, so might as well work with the best data you have. But, you know, the global health and wellness industry has an estimated value of, like, $4 trillion, right? And so it's just like, no wonder there's so many basic- baseless claims and pseudoscience. Like, I mean, you know, uh, uh, that's... Uh, and you say, "Okay, well, that's why we need to stick to the real science," right? The peer-reviewed scientific literature. But the peer-reviewed literature is broken, right? And says who? Longtime editors of the most prestigious medical journals on the planet, right? The New England Journal, The Lancet, right? Errors, fraud, falsification, fabrication, image manipulation, selective outcome reporting, publication bias, uh, predatory publishing, p-hacking, something called HARKing, which is Hypothesizing After Results are Known, ghostwriting, conflicts of interest, not just among the researchers, conflicts of interest among the editors of the journals, the clinical guidelines writers, entire journals themselves. And, you know, as bad as the, you know, medical misinformation mess is, the nutrition literature's even worse. But, you know, at least the peer-reviewed literature offers at least some barrier to entry, unlike people just spouting nonsense online. And so it really comes down to, you know, paraphrasing that Winston Churchill quote about democracy, which is, you know, the peer-reviewed medical literature is the worst form of evidence except for all the others.

Melanie Avalon
With where we're at now, like I said, with the new food pyramid. So it's interesting because-- So this audience is pretty, like very whole foods based, but also pretty... Like we're very-- Not we, but a lot of my listeners follow like a higher protein diet, animal-based diet.

So I'm really curious because you talk in the documentary about a very much all or none approach when it comes to whole foods plant-based diet. And you say, I'm paraphrasing, but you say something to the effect of, you know, if you just make a moderate change, do you want, you know, moderate diabetes or moderate cancer or moderate whatever it may be? So it's very much, you know, going all in. So I'm, I'm really curious what you think about people who are doing-- who have cut out like processed foods and all of that, but they're still having like animal protein in their diet and doing a whole foods, but not completely plant diet. Like how do you f- how do you feel about them?

Dr. Michael Greger
Well, look, I think that's fantastic. They've do- they've done half the work, right? A whole food plant-based diet has two components, whole and plant, right? Basically, I view them like junk food vegans, right? So the, so the junk food vegans that are eating vegan donuts, okay, well, they got half the story figured out, right? They got the, you know, the, the, the minimizing animal products, right? But oh my God, they're eating fucking donuts, right? Whereas, you know, on the other side of the equation, thank God they're not eating donuts, right? But they're, you know, eating, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're eating s- you know, tallow encrusted s- you know, porterhouse steaks or whatever. And it's just like, it's awesome that you're not eating donuts, but, uh, you are not eating the healthiest foods on the planet. So, uh, you really need both. Halfway is better than zero the way most people are eating donuts and the steak.

So this is, uh, uh, congratulations. That's awesome. You're halfway there. Keep up the good work.

Melanie Avalon
So how do you feel about like the evolutionary perspective that people will take? So, you know, saying like hunter gatherers ate animals and plants. Is it just that they weren't eating the ideal form or does it matter that back then it was different than the way we eat now these foods?

Dr. Michael Greger
I think it's a very compelling argument for, you know, shouldn't we be eating foods that we were kind of evolutionarily designed to eat? And I couldn't agree more, but why do people go back to the Paleolithic? That's two million years ago. Well, well, yeah, I think they go back there because that's what they want to eat, so they're like, "Oh, that's, that's the... Okay." We last broke off from our last, you know, great ape ancestor twenty million years ago, back in the Miocene era. So from the-- for the first ninety percent of our evolution, from twenty million years ago to two million years ago, until we started-- till we learned how to hunt, for the first ninety percent of our existence, we ate what the rest of our great ape cousins eat, which is almost, almost exclusively a plant-based diet. And so basically just massive amounts of fruits and greens and so plant-based, in fact, we lost the ability to make vitamin C. Most animals on this planet make their own vitamin C from scratch. But it's like very few ani- like we and fruit bats, it's just a few animals that, uh, basically their diets were just so chock full of vitamin C, our bodies just junk that DNA that makes vitamin C, 'cause what's the point? We're wasting our time making our own vitamin C 'cause our, our diet is so plant-based and so rich in the, in the foods that where only vitamin C is found, plants, that we just junk the DNA.

So our entire digestive tract was evolved to handle over triple digit grams of fiber a day. You know, you look, uh-- even just in the Paleolithic period, you look at this paleo pool, coprolites, fossilized human feces, hundred and seven, hundred and ten grams of fiber a day. Oh my God, that's like, people are getting like twelve, you know. So you want to eat how humans evolved, uh, their, their physiology evolved? Okay. Well, here's the bulk of it, and that is-- and so that is a really strong argument to eat a plant-based diet. No wonder why the primer, the number one recommendation of the Blue Zones food guidelines, where they went to look around the, the, the populations with the most centenarians, the longest, healthiest lived populations on planet Earth that we know of, the first on their list of recommendations is eat at least ninety-five percent plant-based. It makes sense why that would be the healthiest.

Melanie Avalon
Do you think the same-- 'cause that completely makes sense about-- I, I've thought about that a lot, about why we lost our, our ability to create vitamin C. Would a similar thing apply to... We haven't lost the ability, but we have, you know, a very poor conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA.

Would that maybe indicate that we were eating or needing to eat like seafood abundantly?

Dr. Michael Greger
Only-- I mean, so the concentrated sources of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids really only found along the coasts. I mean, you-- we do have evidence from like, you know, you look at these bonobos, and they're eating these sea vegetables. Like you see them in ponds munching on seaweed, and the question is, "Huh, I wonder if that's where they're getting these, these omega-3s from." But, you know, part of the p- the issue is that they were not blocking this elongation pathway by eating all these junky omega-6 oils like cottonseed oil, uh, you know, safflower oil, sunflower oil. We, most of these kind of cheap oils used in junk food, the omega-6s, and they actually use the same enzymatic pathways for elongation to make arachidonic acid. And so that kind of slows that conversion.

And of course, we don't, didn't have that before we had a junk food industry, and so that could facilitate this conversion. And, you know, you look at, uh, you know, uh, so, you know, uh, the, the human brain is about a third DHA dry weight. So when, you know, someone calls you a fat head, that's, that's pretty accurate. And you look at, you know, the, you know, brain weights of, of, you know, vegan children and, you know, they're identical. I mean, we can obviously convert enough to, you know, do everything that we need to do unless we are in this, you know, uh, modern world where we're eating a lot of junky omega-6 rich oils, which may, uh, impair c- conversion. I mean, I still would recommend people consider doing maybe 250 milligrams of, uh, of a pollutant-free DHA, you know, so these algae derived. And so then you're not getting the pollutants in fish, but you're getting the good stuff that what we want from the marine kingdom.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so here's a question I'm really, really curious about because especially when you're talking about, again, the transition window and like where we're going. So it's really interesting with like the GLP-1 agonists now, you know, massive amounts of people are actually losing weight, like they're losing weight, which would have a beneficial effect on their health presumably. And yet I think at the same time, it's allowing people to do it by often just, you know, not changing what they're eating. They're just eating way less .

So what do you think about this turn in this version of the simulation we live in? I jest, but you know, where people are now, lots of people are losing weight, but they might not be doing it in a quote, healthy way, and definitely often not a whole foods plant-based way. How do you feel?

Dr. Michael Greger
Well, so I wrote a book on the subject called Ozempic, where I talk about the pros and cons. So basically it turns out that obesity so dramatically decreases one's lifespan, uh, reducing life expectancy as much as six or seven years. And like bariatric surgery, I think these GLP-1 agonists should be considered as a last resort for those unwilling or unable to treat the cause of their obesity, which is that people eat too much crap. And so anything that gets people to eat less crap, whether it's, you know, rearranging their intestines or take-- injecting these drugs can be beneficial. But y- of course, you don't need, you know, the drug or surgery to de-crap your diet. You know, people need to realize these, these drugs aren't a cure for, you know, obesity.

In all the major trials that have been done, you know, the p- people on average start out obese, and at the end of the trial or when the drug stops working, uh, after about a year, the drug completely stops where you don't lose any more weight. You can stay on for the rest of your life, and you won't lose any more weight. So, you know, three-year study, all the weight is lost in the first year, none for the next two years. And then, of course, if you stop, all the weight comes back on. And where people stall out is obesity. So they start out on average obese, and they end up on average obese on these drugs with no additional benefit. Now, they're less obese, and that's critical. They start out more obese, and they end up obese, but they're less obese, and there's so many health benefits of being less obese, you could argue that the benefits outweigh the risks in certain cases. And so that's why these drugs can be so useful. But if we actually want to not be obese and we want to improve our health further by not just eating smaller portions or less food, but actually eating healthier food, that would be, uh, beneficial.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha. Gotcha.

And then going back to the documentary a little bit, one of the, one of the parts I really loved, and it's a more personal part, but is I think is it, is it your grandmother or your mother talking about when you were younger and I'm and that your... Was it your high school picture that was a mugshot or your college picture?

Dr. Michael Greger
Ah, no, my med school.That's funny.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I was like, "Whoa. He was, uh, he was out there." So okay I'm really curious, your, the activism that you did like in med school, what effect did that have on what you're doing today? Like, do you still do things like that?

I mean, getting arrested, that I, I... That's a lot. So I'm just curious what your experience was like and how it informed what you're doing today.

Dr. Michael Greger
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I- in my family, like, it was just like, that was just the kind of the expectation. So both my parents were very active in the civil rights movement, both have, uh, you know, you know, juicy FBI, you know, files, both, uh, have a picture on my wall of my mom getting dragged away and arrested. They've both been arrested many, many times. And that's just what you do.

You stand up against injustice. So I went to med school in Boston. I would just skip class and go, uh, feed people on the commons as part of this organization called Food Not Bombs, uh, which offers just free healthy food to everybody who wants it. Turns out it's illegal to feed people, surprisingly. And there's all sorts of ways you criminalize the homeless. You couldn't sleep overnight in the commons, blah, blah, blah. So as active civil disobedience, I would continue to feed people, and we slept out on the commons to, to get arrested with everybody else.

Another organization called Homes Not Jails, where we would go into city-owned properties that they were just sitting on completely empty. Meanwhile, people are on the streets need homes, and we'd move in a family, a homeless family, and of course, get arrested for trespassing and breaking and entering and... But it was just, I just felt it was kind of a... In fact, uh, Virchow once had a quote that the medi- that public health is just medicine on a-- or politics is just medicine on a broader scale, or public health. Like, it's just like it's all the same thing. We're trying to reduce suffering. We're trying to make people healthy. We're trying to, to, to fulfill the, you know, promise in the, you know, World Health Organization's or the United Nations, uh, Declaration of, uh, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that everyone has a right to, you know, food, housing, medical care, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

So Yeah. I mean, in fact, I remember calling, you know, you get one call from jail. I remember calling my mom and telling her that I was arrested first time, and I'll never forget what she said. You can imagine, ah, Jewish mother, worried, blah, blah, blah. No. First thing she said was, "What took you so long?" I was like, "Yeah, that's right, Mom." Yeah, yeah. So she was very proud of me and yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, and bringing it to today, I do feel like that's a major issue, especially because we know that, you know, health conditions and obesity and all of that, you know, tends to be very prevalent in low socioeconomic status people. And the system-- I don't know, like how do you think practically the system could change where the poor have access to healthy food or can afford it?

Like how, like how could that even manifest? 'Cause the system doesn't seem to be set up for it right now.

Dr. Michael Greger
And it's getting even worse, right? With GLP-1s, uh, you know, who can afford them, right? And so those-- we have these two classes of people you can imagine. The junk food companies took a page out of the tobacco industry's playbook and targeted these, the same, uh, the, uh, the same communities. And so where are all the tobacco ads and the alcohol ads and the fast food ads? They're in these poor communities.

And so how do you get a dollar menu burger? You do that through government subsidies. Our taxpayer money going to make sugar artificially cheap, going to make feed crops artificially cheap to support these industries that are making everybody unhealthy, and then we have to pay taxpayer money to, you know, help them in Medicare mitigate. So I mean, there's lots of things we can do. We could end subsidies for these, these companies that are just, uh, you know, making, you know, uh, cheap brown sugar water and selling it to people. I mean, the, you know, we could, uh, we could put restrictions on advertising and just like there's no, you know, cigarette ads on TV, why are there junk food ads?

We're not taking away anyone's rights to be as-- to treat their bodies as terrible as they want. They can still smoke cigarettes and bungee jump and not wear their seatbelt and disconnect their smoke alarms, whatever they wanna do. But, you know, we don't have to expose our kids to this kind of deceptive advertising. And we can make default healthy options. We can make the healthy option the most convenient option, the cheapest option. There are programs, for example, in Scandinavia, they have free fruit programs in schools where you-- every- all the kids go to school and on their desk, everybody, there's a piece of fruit. And you say, "Well, wait a second. Wow, it must cost a lot of money to give every single kid in the country free fruit." Guess what? It pays for itself, right? Because who pays for the healthcare? The government pays for the healthcare. And just having kids eat more fruit, they-- cuts down on their risk of chronic disease. They actually save money in the long run.

And so if you're gonna subsidize anything, why aren't apples free, cabbage free, sweet potatoes free? You still wanna pay some money to get a bag of chips? Pay money and get a bag of chips. But why isn't, you know, the healthy basics, you know, why aren't we subsidizing that, if anything, to, you know, to, to support the, the health of people? If people wanna pay to hurt themselves, let them pay to hurt themselves. But, you know, why aren't the basics free? Um, I don't know. That, that's, uh, the, the, the, that's, uh, that's the world I wanna live in.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. No, same. And it's j- it's just sometimes I just think like I just wonder, you know, if it could've been any other way, like if there had just been different decisions that had been made like in some room somewhere, and we, we would have like a completely different situation. But oh my goodness.

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Garger. This has been amazing. So now that you've, you know, done this documentary, what's, what's next for you? Another book? Another documentary?

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh, well, so the next big book is How Not to Hurt, coming out December 15th, 2026. Super excited.

So it's, uh, a, a l- uh, diet and lifestyle approaches to pain management, so you know I do migraines and arthritis and, you know, on d- on, on down the list. And there's all sorts of amazing things we can do to, um, help people in chronic pain. And so, uh, then I'll be doing a speaking tour in 2027, going to Asia for the first time. Going to Australia and Singapore and Malaysia and very cool.

I've never been there. Then the next, uh, series of books will be on cancer survival.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing.Well, I would love to have you back for How Not to Hurt.That sounds incredible.I had a whole episode yesterday basically on turmeric.

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh, cool.Oh, I'd love to come back.Let's do that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.Well, have a wonderful day.And last question, which I ask every guest, which is what is something you're grateful for?

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh my God.I am grateful for AI tools that are making my, my life so much easier and so much more effective.And if AI doesn't kill us all, it's going to be very useful.

Melanie Avalon
Literally, that's how I feel Okay?All right.Well, have a beautiful rest of, of the day, and you're amazing.Thank you so much.

Dr. Michael Greger
Oh, keep up the great work.

Melanie Avalon
You too.Bye.

Dr. Michael Greger
All right.Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X.

Please visit melonieavalon.com to learn more about today's guest, and always feel free to contact me at contact@melonieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.