The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode - #378 - Jason Fung

TRANSCRIPT

Jason Fung
You could say that, okay, calories is sort of how the whole thing is played out, but what is controlling the calories behind it? The whole thing about breakfast is, is it's been a sledgehammer that people have used.

"Oh, you're gonna die. You're gonna die." It's like, what? You think the human body is just so stupid that you're gonna die if you don't eat breakfast? When you stick to natural foods, you're not only gonna take care of that homeostatic hunger, physical hunger, because you're gonna have natural satiety hormones, you're gonna take care of a lot of the emotional problems.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this.

Welcome back to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Oh my goodness, friends, how exciting to have the legend Jason Fung on the show today. He is honestly one of the people that I have followed for the longest time in the world of health and wellness. He is such an inspiration to me, and this is such an honor.

Jason's new book, The Hunger Code, is absolutely incredible, and we dive into so many topics in today's episode. Things like should you rethink the body fat equation, like literally with math, the three types of hunger that explain why you might be gaining weight, struggling with losing weight, all the things, the role of calories versus hormones when it comes to body fat, why you should skip breakfast, the shocking effect of memory on food intake, I'm talking about food amnesia, whether or not food addiction is real, why our modern environment stacks the cards against you when it comes to everything weight loss, and so much more.

The show notes for today's episode will be at melonieavalon.com/hungercode. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love, and then check out my Instagram Find Me Friday announcement post, and again, comment there to enter to win something that I love.

All right, I think that's all the things. Now without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr. Jason Fung. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is with, honestly, probably the most well-known popular guest to my audience. That's highly possible. It's definitely somebody that I've been following for years and years and years. So you know him for The Obesity Code, The Complete Guide to Fasting, Life in the Fasting Lane. We actually had him on the show, I don't know if you remember this, Jason, but you came on for The Cancer Code back in, like, I g- was that 2020 that that book came out?

Jason Fung
2020. It was a while ago, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
And your, you have your newest book, The Hunger Code: Resetting Your Body's Fat Thermostat in the Age of Ultra-Processed Food. So when the opportunity came on to have you on the show for this, I was obviously a 100% complete yes. I just, I'm just smiling because especially on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, which we launched that show in, I think tw- I don't even know, 2016 or 2017. Like, you were always mentioned in the listener questions, like, 24/7. So we were always talking about your work, and really, really grateful for all that you're doing, and I loved reading The Hunger Code. So friends, this book dives deep, deep, deep into the, which we can talk about, the potential myth of calories in versus calories out and the role of hormones in comparison to that. And then it's really a deep dive into all of the things that affect our hunger. So Jason talks about how we have three different types of hunger, and there are all these tips and tricks that you can follow and, and implement into your life to deal with your hormones and your hunger. And something I really liked about it is I love when I find really cool random studies with little ... with like, like, things that I haven't heard before about our eating habits and how we can, you know, optimize our lives in that way, and there were so many incredible studies in here that I've actually been talking about on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. So loved this book.

I have so many questions. And oh, I don't think I've even said his name. I'm here with Dr. Jason Fung. Jason, thank you so much for being here.

Jason Fung
Oh, thank you so much. Great to be here.

Melanie Avalon
So to start things off, this book ... So, okay, I've just mentioned all of your, your different books, but what was the book immediately prior to this one? It was-

Jason Fung
Probably it was a while ago. It was The Cancer Code. That was in 2020. And then COVID was happening, and all this crazy stuff was happening.

So I sort of took a little bit of a break and then, mm, you know, but then there's been some new research and stuff, so then I thought, "This is really interesting." Uh, Ozempic was becoming very popular, which was sort of pointing the way to sort of how, how you really have to focus on weight loss, which is on the hunger piece, not the calories piece. So then that's why I thought, "Well, this is actually really, really interesting," and I haven't seen a lot of stuff written about this, so I thought, "This actually is really important," so that's why I started working on this, this new book, The Hunger Code, and that's, uh, you know, it's, it, it, to me, it's very exciting. It's sort of new stuff. It's not 100 ... You know, it's not, not all diet related because really there's a lot more to it than just the diet

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's, it's overwhelmingly comprehensive in everything that it covers and-- Okay, I didn't realize that, that The Cancer Code was the last one. Okay, so this is interesting just hearing with what you've said.

So you said something in the book about GLP-1 agonists and like Ozempic, and it was actually the exact opposite of something another guest said, but very similar, and I'll tell you what it is, and I'm curious your thoughts on it and how much it even matters in the grand scheme of things, which is you were saying that taking these GLP-1 inhibitors, that it shows us that it's about hunger, not calories. I had a prior guest on the show who literally said the exact opposite. He was like, "These clearly show that at the end of the day, it really is just calories," 'cause people... it m- they... it just makes people eat less calories. So, I mean, I know where you land on it 'cause I read the book, but the calories versus the hunger, does it even matter at the end of the day? Where do you land?

Jason Fung
I've heard that argument too, that it's all about the calories and, uh, and then, you know, oh, that's, that's what it shows. It's like, I think it's... truthfully, I think it's, uh, really shows really a very shallow sort of level of understanding. Because if you think about, you know, if you say, "Okay, people are over- are getting overweight because they're overeating," right? So it's like, okay, that's fine. That's a very shallow level of understanding because you have to understand why they're overeating.

It's e- e- it's not that they're overeating. You have to under- understand why they're overeating. So if you're overeating, why is it that you're overeating, right? And the answer is, of course, you eat because you're hungry, and you stop eating when you're full. So the problem of the overeating is really a problem of overhunger. That's the real problem, right? That's what the GLP-1 shows you because GLP-1s do not restrict calories in any way, okay? So if you think about what the sort of root cause analysis, if you look at sort of what's causing problems, right? You could say that, okay, calories is sort of how the whole thing is played out, but what is controlling the calories behind it? If you're not hungry, you're not gonna eat. It's not about willpower, right? You didn't eat because you didn't wanna eat, right? The hu- the, the hunger, when you turn it off, stops you from eating, right? So it's the hunger that is sort of the, the more deeper root cause of the whole issue, if you will, right? So you can restrict calories, and people have done it. There's lots of ways to restrict calories. You could wire somebody's jaw shut, or you could cut somebody's stomach, right? To the size of a walnut, which is what bariatric surgery does. And the thing is that when you physically restrict calories, what happens is that you just get hungrier. So if you wire somebody's jaw shut, which was very popular in the '60s as a weight loss control method, what happens is that people just get hungrier and hungrier until they find a way around your physical restriction of calories. So they drink smoothies and eat ice cream and stuff, and they regain all that weight. It's incredibly unsuccessful. It fails virtually every time. 'Cause if you think about it, suppose you just go on a calorie-restricted diet, well, hunger keeps going up and up and up. So your calories goes down, but your hunger goes up. Well, you're eventually gonna lose, and it's really miserable while you're doing it. So what happens instead if you're to reduce hunger, such as with the GLP-1, right? So if you reduce hunger, you also will reduce calories, but notice that you're not fighting with yourself anymore, right? Before, you're always fighting with your hunger because calories went down, hunger went up. They're complete opposites. If you control the hunger, hunger goes down, calories goes down. So therefore, you're actually going to succeed, which is precisely what Ozempic has showed. Like virtually all the studies have showed that, right?

Jason Fung
So it's not about controlling the calories, because when you control the calories, you're going to fail, right? It's about controlling the source. Sort of like if you have a fever, you could put some cold cloths on your forehead and stuff and the temp- your temperature will go down, but you're still gonna have an infection, right? 'Cause the infection is what caused the fever. So if you treat it with antibiotics, then you treat the infection, which naturally lowers your fever, right? As opposed to lowering your fever, which does nothing for your infection because it's, you know, the, the infection is the sort of deeper cause, right?

So you always have to go into that deeper level of understanding. And in The Hunger Code, I talk about the sort of this, this concept in logic called the three whys, right? And, and to understand a problem, you have to unders- y- you have to sort of ask the question why three times. Otherwise, you're going to be stuck at a very shallow level of understanding. So if you're to say, for example, "Why did the Titanic sink?" The wrong answer is because it hit an iceberg, right? And you say, "Well, why would that be the wrong answer? It did hi- hit an iceberg." Absolutely, it did. Because if you stop at that shallow level of understanding, then your advice to prevent future marine disasters is don't hit icebergs, right? Which is really stupid, right? It's like y- that's not good advice. So therefore, you really have to go to a deeper level. So you have to ask the second why. So why did the Titanic sink? One, the first why is because it hit an iceberg. Why did it hit the iceberg? It's like, because the captain couldn't avoid it in time. And the third why is to say, why couldn't the captain avoid the iceberg? And the answer is because it was going too fast. Now, that's the real answer. So the solution therefore is in bad weather, slow down. And that's actually good advice, right? As opposed to the don't hit icebergs advice, right? You know, the don't hit icebergs people is exactly the same level of understanding as the calories people. 'Cause if you say, "Okay, well, you know, why are you gaining fat?" Well, because calories in is greater than calories out. Yes, that is true. But that's the don't hit icebergs level of understanding. The, the more important question is why is calories in greater than calories out, right? Not that it is, but why is it greater than calories? Why is calories in greater than calories out? And the answer is because you're hungry, right? And then the third question, the third why, which is I think even more interesting, is why are you hungry, right? And that's where you have to say, "Well, that's a really critical question," 'cause if you can understand why you're hungry, then you can actually control your hunger, which will therefore allow you to successfully lose weight in the long term. And the answer is there's three different types of hunger. There's a physical type of hunger called homeostatic hunger, which is controlled by hormones.

Jason Fung
There's a emotional type of hunger, which is called hedonic hunger, and there's a social type of hunger, which is called conditioned hunger. So there's three very different reasons why you might be overeating, but the point is that you can't get to that level of understanding until you get to that sort of third why, right? And so what Ozempic does, of course, is it, it, it plays on the homeostatic hunger. It uses the GLP-1 system to overwhelm your hunger. It basically shuts it right down, but it'll shut down all your hungers, right? So it shuts down all of that, and therefore you eat less, and therefore the calories goes down, right?

But again, this whole calories in, calories out thing is, is y- people are just stuck at this really shallow level of understanding and insisting that they're right. The, the, the, the calorie bullies are like, "Oh, I'm right, I'm right. You did hit an iceberg. You did hit an iceberg. The advice is don't hit icebergs." It's like, okay, well, that's just not helpful.

It's just like if you're to say, okay, your, uh, you know, your kid had took your car, went on an icy road, flew off the, the edge, right? What's your advice, right? It's slow down, right? Your, your advice is not, "Well, the reason you flew off the road is the force of gravity and the force of friction, you know, the force of friction was less than the force of... The centrifugal force pushing you off the ground." Like, that's stupid, right? Slow down. Your root cause was you went too fast. Slow down, right? But you have to get to the why did you slide off the edge of the road? It's, like, because you were going too fast, right? So this is the whole argument. It's not that the calories in, calories out is necessarily wrong, because it is technically right, just like don't hit icebergs is technically right, but it's not useful, right?

And, and that's the real problem. And, and, and there's so many s- s- the same examples, right? It's like, why did the plane crash? It's like, well, because the force of gravity was higher than the lifting force. Well, that's always true, right? It's like, but that's not useful, right? You know, your plane crashed because you didn't do proper maintenance on it. So you do proper maintenance, right? But you have to get to that understanding of, well, why is the force of gravity higher than the force of lift? Well, because your engine didn't work. Why didn't your engine work? Well, because you didn't maintain it. So therefore, when you say, "Okay, how do I prevent crashes?" It's like, get proper maintenance, not make sure the force, lifting force is greater than the gravity force, right?

Because that's a superficial understanding, and that's the whole problem with these calories people, is they're so smug and so sure how right they are because they're like, "It's physics, right? It's, it, it's, uh, it's all, like, you know, gravity versus lift. How can you deny that? It's physics." It's like, no, because you're not understanding the sort of deeper problem.

Jason Fung
So here's the thing, right? So if you think about the types of hunger, you have homeostatic hunger, you have hedonic hunger, you have conditioned hunger. So suppose you have somebody who is not getting enough sleep, right? And that's their problem.

And we know that if you get sleep deprivation, you will get... You will gain weight. It's a very common reason why people gain weight, sleep deprivation. So therefore, what's the solution? Well, the calories will pe- people say, "Well, eat fewer calories." It's like, wait a second. Your problem was you didn't get enough sleep. Why would you be talking about calories? Your solution should be get better sleep, obviously, right? So what does it have to do with calories? Or say you have a situation, somebody is depressed and they're eating a lot of junk food because it makes them feel better. Well, that's why they're gaining weight, 'cause they're eating junk food like crazy. They're eating potato chips and ice cream all day long because they're depressed, and it makes them feel better. It's a comfort food. So therefore, the solution is to deal with the emotions and try and figure out another way to feel better rather than eating, right?

It had nothing to do with the calories in, calories out. It had everything to do with their emotional state, right? But you only get to that point by understanding the sort of deeper reasoning. So every time people talk about, "It's all calories," like, like, they're pretending that it's a math problem, you know? It's just add this, minus this, and it equals this. It's like, it's not a math problem. Nothing in the human body works quite like that, and that's why when you simply focus on the calories, it almost always fails, and that's just the reality, right?

Every single study has shown that if you just restrict calories, you're gonna fail in the long term. And it's not like nobody's ever done this. Millions of people have done these calorie-restricted diets, and it completely fails.

Melanie Avalon
Well, okay, so many things here. Speaking of it being a math problem, I had a mind-blown moment when you, you rewrite the, the equation. So, you know, you make the, the proposal that instead of thinking of, thinking of it as, you know, our body fat equals calories in minus calories out, we can change it to, I think, calories in equals body fat plus calories out. And I literally went and I did, like, the math with it where you, like, add one to both side. I was like, "Oh yeah, that actually does work out." And, like, when you think about it that way, you know, that's such a reframe.

Okay, so question about the, the three hungers. Because I think when we think of... Well, first of all, I think when we think of hunger, most people think of the first type, the homeostatic, so the, you know, the, the, the physical hunger. But we've also got, like you said, this hedonic hunger that involves emotions, and then we've got the condition hunger based on our environment. So in a way, I feel like the hunger, maybe people would understand it more if it's like the desire to eat. Either way, why do you think like with Ozempic, for example, presumably, and you've touched on this, but presumably it's affecting the homeostatic hunger, so just the, the literal physical hunger, but it seems to work for the others as well. So are those hungers on a hierarchy where if you really address like that, you know, actual hunger, that it filters into the emotional and the environment and everything else?

Jason Fung
Well, it's sort of like that. I mean, when you're talking about GLP-1 drugs, what's happening is that you're using one system, which is the GLP-1 system, to basically overwhelm all the other systems. Because it's not a normal level of GLP-1. It's a sort of super high level, uh, supraphysiologic, if you will. So you can't achieve those levels of GLP-1 by yourself, so it's, it's artificial. So you can use super high levels of that to overwhelm everything else. Just like, you know, for example, if you take certain drugs or like chemotherapy and you're nauseated, right? Well, all your hunger will go away. It doesn't matter if you have social hunger or if you have emotional hunger. You're so nauseated that you just can't eat, right?

And there's different ways that the GLP-1 system does this, like through the, directly through the brain, but also slowing the, the, uh, emptying of the stomach and so on. So there's multiple ways that it works. But each one of them can-- Like they're all part of eating behavior, so they all sort of exist on a continuum. But at any time, one of them can sort of take over one of the others. And this is, this is, for example, hedonic hunger, which is the emotional type, is one of the big things that affects it is actually the ultra-processed foods. So ultra-processed foods are designed to create sort of maximum pleasure, and therefore they can lead to things like food addiction because of the way they're processed. And that can overwhelm your homeostatic system, right? Because of the way it's, it's, again, this sort of artificially constructed food that is able to create so much sort of eating behavior that it overwhelms the other, the natural breaks on the system. 'Cause your body normally tries to slow down what you're eating, right? But people have had the sensation where y- you start and you just can't stop, right? It's, it, it, like an addiction. You know, if you're addicted to alcohol, you can't stop even though you know it's really going to kill you. It's the same with ultra-processed foods. And the, the key is not the food necessarily or the calories or whatever. The key is the processing has made it such that you really can't stop. And it's not really... You know, it's, it's-- What's, what's funny about food addiction, for example, is that the, the research behind it is sort of exploding, especially in the last five or six years. And you really have to treat it as an addiction, right? And the reason that's important is because an addiction you have to treat with abstinence, right? And that's where it falls apart. Like if you have somebody who's addicted to alcohol, you would never say to that person, "Hey, just have a drink. Everything in moderation," right? Because when they start, they can't stop. You'd be like the worst friend ever, right? But when people are addicted to ultra-processed foods, people are like, "Well, everything in moderation. You can have it." It's like, why would you say that, right? It's like, would you say to a cocaine addict, "Oh yeah, just take a little bit of cocaine. Just take a little less cocaine.

Jason Fung
It's fine." It's like you're not a very good friend, are you? You're not a very good doctor if you say that. Yet, at the same time, food addictions we don't, we don't treat as real, but they're, you know, what the research is showing, especially in the last few years, is that it is real. And people describe it all the time, right? People say, "I'm addicted to bread. I start, I can't stop. I'm addicted to chips. I'm addicted to, you know, pizza. I'm addicted to sweets. I'm addicted to chocolate." We just didn't believe them.

They're saying it all the time. We just didn't believe those people. But it turns out that they were much more right than wrong. And, uh, now we have ways to measure it, something called the food addiction score. And, and, and as predicted, a lot of the foods that are-- A lot of the people who struggle with weight are actually food addicts, not simply loss of willpower. Just like somebody who's, uh, an alcoholic, right? Addicted to alcohol. You can't just will yourself away from that addiction, right? Or if you're addicted to narcotics like Michael Jackson or something. You can't just will yourself. All the money in the world won't do that for you. But what you have to do is acknowledge it as a real addiction and, and treat it as a real addiction. So that's, you know, that's, that's the thing. So, so if you have that, that may completely overwhelm your other types of hunger. So all of them are sort of important in their own way, but they're going to be different. Like it's not like a hierarchy. It's like some people-- For some people, it's going to be the homeostatic hunger. For some people, it's gonna be the hedonic hunger, the emotional. Some people, it's gonna be the social hunger, right? Which is called conditioned hunger. If you have a problem with conditioned hunger, well, then you have to bring a totally different toolbox to bear because it wasn't about the diet, it's about your habits. And therefore, how you're gonna get better is by treating that conditioned hunger.

Whereas the person who, you know, had an addiction to refined carbohydrates, their problem is you need to cut out refined carbohydrates. And the person who was sleep deprived, who had too much cortisol, the problem is to get more sleep, right? So you see that there's actually c- different solutions for everybody, right? But- The problem with these calories people is they wanna apply the same solution to all these different problems, right? The, the, to the man with the hammer, every problem is a nail, right? So it's like, oh, your problem is sleep dep- deprivation. Solution: calorie restriction. What? Right? Your problem is food addiction. Solution: calorie restriction, right? It's like, huh? Your problem is h- bad habits. Well, solution: calorie restriction. It's like, what are-- why do you bring the same solution to every single problem? Why don't you try and understand the problem so you can treat it? Perimenopause, you're gaining weight. Solution: calorie restriction. What? The problem is perimenopause, right?

Jason Fung
It's like we all know it's a high-risk period of weight gain, so why do you treat it as a willpower problem? It's obviously a hormonal problem, right?

So the, uh, you know, the, the problem goes on and on, and it's, it's really trying to... And, and what I write about is always trying to understand the deeper levels of what the problem is so that you can come up with a good solution, right? Not just, "Oh, hey, it's all about calorie restriction, calorie restrict- That's gonna s- solve everything." So if your problem is that you're under stress and that's why you're eating, the solution is deal with the stress, right? Deal with it in a way that is not eating.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that completely makes sense about the different hungers and kind of like with the, the GLPs turning off the, like you-- turning off one system and overwhelming everything else. I can see how that would happen.

Like with hedonic hunger, for example, say you could be depressed and, you know, not wanting to eat at all, and then that would overwhelm, you know, the other, the other two systems. Or like with the conditioned one, I guess if your environment literally changed so that you couldn't eat, then that would overwhelm the other ones as well. The addiction piece, I-- So I feel so strongly about this, and I loved reading your take on it in the book because like you were saying about the moderation that people advocate for with food, and maybe this is just coming from my own personal history, but for me, it is like the foods that really, I wouldn't say like turn me on, the foods that would just be a, a gate- a gateway food, I just can't have any of them because if I, if I have just a little bit, and they're all like ultra-processed foods, it's like Funfetti cake and stuff, like if I have a bite of that, I am so miserable. Like the idea of like moderating that is not anything I want to engage with, and yet I feel like society says, "Oh, that means you don't have self-control around food." And it's like maybe, maybe, maybe I just need abstinence here. So I, I really like empowering that in people.

Jason Fung
But it, but, but it's, it's such a s- such a silly thing, right? Because it's like, well, if you know that, you know, somebody has an addiction to food, and I, I hear all these... Uh, the, the reason people didn't treat it as real is because people say, "Well," th- there's really silly stuff, right?

It's like, "You have to eat, right? So therefore you can't abstain from food." Like, like I'm not saying abstain from food. I'm saying abstain from ultra- the, the ultra-processed foods that you're addicted to, right? So if you are-

Melanie Avalon
The Funfetti.

Jason Fung
Exactly. If you're addicted to alcohol, I don't say, "Don't drink anything," right? Why? That'd be stupid, right? Of course you can drink water. Of course you can drink tea. So if you're addicted to Funfetti cake, I don't say, "Don't eat beef," right? Why would I say that, right? So it's a stupid argument.

And then other people say that, "Well, food is all natural, right? So therefore you can't be addicted to it." It's like, well, you know that, um, cigarettes come from tobacco plants and morphine comes from the poppy plant and marijuana comes from the marijuana plant, right? I suppose those things can't be addictive either, right? It's like, of course they're addictive. Alcohol comes from, you know, whatever you're fermenting, right? Grains or whatever. Hops. It's like, of course you can be addicted to those. The key is that you process them. It's the way you process them and sort of isolate and concentrate the addictive substances in it, and that's what happens with ultra-processed food.

So you can be addicted to bread or cake or chocolate, but very few people will ever tell you, "I am addicted to eggplant," right? "I can't stop eating it," right? It's like, of course I can stop eating it. I love eggplant, actually. But I can stop eating it. It's not that difficult. Or, "I'm addicted to beef. Like, I will eat until I explode." It's like nobody ever says that, right? "I'm addicted to liver." Like who says that? "I'm addicted to eggs." It's like people eat eggs, but it's not like you're addicted that you can never stop, right? But it's the processing that really makes that thing addictive, right?

So these arguments that, "Oh, it cannot exist," or, "You can't not eat food. You have to eat something," it's right-- That all these arguments have such huge holes in the argument, yet, you know, people just repeat them over and over as if that explains it, right? It doesn't explain anything. And people, if you listen to people, they'll tell you exactly the same thing. They'll tell you exactly what they're addicted to, 'cause they know. They're living that life, right? So if you understand that, then you have to say no, just like the alcoholic has to say, "No, we have to not drink alcohol." And how do you treat an addiction, right? So you go to like Alcoholics Anonymous or something and you can s- say, okay, well, what do they focus on in a real addiction problem such as Alcoholics Anonymous? Well, they talk about forgiveness, right? They talk about making amends. They're talking about, you know, being at peace with yourself, spirituality, having friends, right? That's the sponsor or whatever. Well, that's the way you treat addiction, not just, "Hey, just say no," or, you know, "Hey, just don't do it," right?

It's like the way we treat food addiction is so primitive compared to our understanding of addiction medicine. It's like we're in the Stone Ages, right? We don't even acknowledge this exists, even as everybody says it, right? "I'm a chocoholic," right? "I'm addicted to sugar. I'm addicted..." Right? It's, it's, it's, it's just crazy when you actually think about it

Melanie Avalon
We don't acknowledge it exists, or we shame people for trying to break that addiction by abstaining

Jason Fung
Yeah, isn't that sad? That's, that's the saddest part.

It's like, "Oh, of course you..." It's like, "Oh," you know, people say, "Oh, I'm addicted to the cake." It's like, "Oh, you can have a little bit of this birthday cake." It's like, why would you say something like that?

Melanie Avalon
I literally have, like, childhood memories where my mom would be like, "Melanie, when you go-- like, when we go to our grandparents, you have to have some of your grandmother's cake because she, like, made it for you." And I was like, "Maybe I don't want the cake maybe." Like, so it's, yeah, it's so, so interesting.

Think-- I just had, like, an in real time epiphany. I, I r- I think the, the eating window and the eating approach that I landed on personally, I came to because I realized it was a way for me to almost, like, hack the three hungers. Like, it let me have all three hungers and not experience the, like, the weight gain and the metabolic effects of if I were to indulge in them all the time, which is that... So I do daily fasting, and I do a one meal a day eating window. And in the eating window, I only eat whole foods. And so that addresses the, so the, the homeostatic hunger, because I am hungry when I'm eat- when I start eating, so I, I get to experience that hunger and then, and then be full. It addresses the emotional side of things, 'cause I'm not, like, constantly using food to deal with emotions, 'cause it's just not an option, 'cause I'm fasting. And then for the third one, the conditioned, it is a habit. I do have my, like, nightly one meal a day thing. And so I- in a way, I, I get to experience all the hungers without them creating damage.

Jason Fung
Yeah, and that's exactly what, uh, in the book I talk about the three golden rules and, you know, the first two is, one is cut out the ultra-processed foods, and two is make sure you have a daily fasting period or some kind of regular fasting period. And that's exactly right, because by building that rule in, so I'm not gonna eat between, you know, 7:00 PM and, you know, 12:00 AM or whatever, uh, 12:00 noon, I should say.

That, that what it does is it creates those sort of guardrails so that you can sort of follow along, right? It creates structure into that eating window, right? So if you think about a eating plan, right? So say, say you have-- say you wanna do a marathon, right? What do you do? One, you get a coach, right? And then the coach will say, "Okay, week one, we're gonna do this. Week two, week three, week four." You, you have a, you have a plan; you have a guardrail, right? So if you think about it, it, it, you know, this, this sort of eat fewer calories, it's a completely stupid plan, right? Does it tell you anything about what you're supposed to eat? No. As long as you eat fewer calories, right? Does it tell you anything about when you should eat? No, not at all. Does it tell you anything about how you should eat, right? Eat slowly, eat mindfully, right? Does it tell you about, you know, what, what you're supposed to eat in terms of processing? No. Nothing. Does it tell you about where you're supposed to eat? Like, eat at a table. Don't eat in, you know, uh, while you're in the car or don't, you know, because these things can trigger you, right? 'Cause you can develop habits like eating in front of the TV, right? So, you know, if you think about the sort of who, what, when, where, how sort of thing, all the questions you want answered about this eating plan that you have, this calorie-restricted diet gives you nothing. There is no plan. It's as if some-- your, your running coach were to say, "Well, do whatever you want as long as you run, and then we'll get to the marathon and you'll run." Right? It's like, "What are you talking about? That's the worst plan ever. Like, you're fired." Right? As opposed to the person who says, "Okay, week one, week two, week three, eat this. Don't eat this. This day we're gonna go for a long run. This day we're gonna go for sprints." You know, that's a plan. That's a real plan, right? And that's what you don't have with most people. And, uh, uh, unfortunately, this is like 99% of doctors give you this plan of just eat fewer calories, right? But no, no idea how to do it, what to do. You're not taking into account friends, like who you're eating with, you know, because that's actually really important. So if, you know, talking about the social side of things. If you think about how important it is, uh, you think about, you know, for example, if you're in a, a board meeting or something like that, or a meeting at work or something like that, right, and you're really bored, it's a milling afternoon, somebody orders a plate of cookies.

Jason Fung
What's gonna happen? You're gonna eat the cookies. Why? 'Cause you're really bored, and you want a little thing to pick you up, and that's gonna give you pleasure, so you eat the cookie, right?

It takes a lot of willpower to not eat that cookie. Now, replay that and, uh, say it's the 1970s. So there's this equally boring meeting at work, but there's no cookies. Are you really gonna get up, leave the meeting, go downstairs, find a coffee shop, buy yourself a coffee, come back in while everybody stares at you and says, "Where did you go?" Like, "What are you doing?" Right? So it wasn't the willpower problem at all. It was a social situation problem, right? But it's like, okay, well, why don't we actually acknowledge that, right? So it's like maybe you have to figure out ways to get around that, right? Maybe you have to change your physical environment. Maybe you have to change the people you hang out with, right? Because again, if your friends are eating french fries all day long, you're eating french fries. If your friends are eating salad all day long, you're eating salad. That's just the way life is, right? It's, it's, it's-- there's lots of studies. If you-- if your best friend becomes obese, your own risk of obesity goes up by like 100%, right? It's like when, uh, my, my brother started playing basketball, I started playing basketball. That's just the way life happens, right? When I go out with my family to eat, I eat pretty well. When I go out with my high school friends, it's not so good. It's actually pretty bad, right? Lots of, you know, fried foods and french fries and all this kind of stuff. The difference wasn't me. I'm the same person. The difference was the social situation, right? And it's so important, and yet nobody acknowledges just how important it is. When we're talking about the different levels of hunger, as I remember talking on the, The Fasting Method- You know, some of the coaches there, 'cause we have The Fasting Method, we have, uh, coaching. She was saying, the head of coaching there, she's a PhD in psychology, she's saying, "There's an interesting way to put the hungers, and I think that the homeostatic, the physical hunger that we all think about as hunger, is probably, like, 10% of the actual problem. The other 90% is between emotional and social." And if that's the case, then really having some kind of person, whether it's a, you know, like in a, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous, you have a sponsor that you can talk to, but, or a coach, right? It's like I don't understand why people don't un- don't do the, you know, don't have, like, a weight loss coach or some kind of coaching, which is what we do at The Fasting Method. Because it's like, look, you have a personal trainer. Like, there's lots of personal trainers, right? It's like, you know, there's ... You can find an exercise program literally in 30 seconds online that is very, very good. So why do people have personal trainers? Because they know that they won't exercise unless there's that trainer standing right there.

Jason Fung
They've made the commitment to the trainer, and that's why, that what's, that's what keeps them accountable. So it's a social problem, not a knowledge problem, right? We treat it like a knowledge problem. You must eat this and not this, right? It's like, it's not a knowledge problem. Never has been a knowledge problem. The problem was accountability. The problem was the social situation. The problem is the people, right?

So then you hire somebody, like a trainer or a coach, that makes you accountable, and then you're successful at working out or running or doing your marathon or whatever it is that you do. But we should really apply ... And people have life coaches, people have CEO coaches, they have executive coaches. They have all kinds of coaches. Why? It's not because they're stupid. It's because they know that that is going to make them more successful.

It's the same for weight loss coaching, but that's by, only by, uh, understanding that there's a huge social component, the condition component, to your eating behavior do you get to that point where you can say, "Oh, though this makes sense, then. Let's, let's think about that sort of framework."

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And to that point, it is possible, you know, to engage in eating situations and, and not eat. I, 'cause I, I do that a lot. And that said, I've been doing that for, I don't know, since 2011.

And it does not get ... I mean, it is easier. I can do it now pretty easily, but I still feel weird if I, like, go to something where I'm not eating and everybody else is. Like, I still feel weird because of my fasting window. I had a ... Oh, but I will say, I felt, related to that, with the, the social eating situations, I felt very seen, and I think a lot of our listeners will as well, because you, you do talk about the, you know, hormonal benefits of eating earlier rather than later and the effects on insulin and things like that. And you also say, though, if you're skipping, you know, one meal, breakfast socially for a lot of people works best to skip breakfast. It's nice to hear that, to hear that, 'cause I feel like everybody's like, "You have to eat breakfast all the time. If you eat one meal, eat breakfast." So it's nice to know that people can find what works for them socially, 'cause I definitely skip, skip breakfast.

Jason Fung
It's certainly true, because the whole thing about breakfast is, is it's been a sledgehammer that people have used. "Oh, you're gonna die. You're gonna die." It's like, what? You think the human body is just so stupid that you're gonna die if you don't eat breakfast? Forget the fact that your body has stored on you thousands and thousands and thousands of calories. Like, that's what body fat is, right? It's a store of calories, right? So if you don't eat, you're gonna draw down those stores of calories, just like if you put food in the refrigerator and you don't go shopping, you can take food out of the refrigerator, right? Your body puts calories into body fat that's stored there. When you don't eat, your body will take those calories out of body fat. Why? So this is 100% natural. Why would it kill you, right? It makes no sense. But, you know, people distort things for their own ... You know, a lot of the, the research, of course, was done by breakfast food companies, right?

So trying to point out how important it is to eat breakfast. And I'm not saying that you have to skip breakfast. Like, some people, it works very well to eat breakfast, right? It keeps them more full down the line and so on. But if you wind up eating a whole bunch of ultra-processed foods, right? Then, you know, because you want the convenience, right? And convenience is one of the keys. So the real problem with breakfast is that everybody's in a rush. So instead of eating, like, eggs and, you know, meat, eggs and ham or something like that, you wind up eating, like, cereal, right? Some ultra-processed, refined carbohydrates, right? And the problem with that is that you're gonna spike your insulin way up, and then that's gonna store a bunch of, of body fat and just leave you hungrier down the line, right? So you're not actually reducing your hunger. You're actually inducing the hunger by eating all those ultra-processed carbohydrates in the morning, right? So you're in a rush, so you grab a muffin, you grab a donut, you grab cereal, right? All ultra-processed carbohydrates. So it's like eating breakfast can work, but you have to have the time to boil an egg and eat it and clean up and all that stuff, right? And people just don't have the time and don't wanna get up early for that. That's fine. Then don't, don't eat breakfast. It's fine, right? But again, it's, there are other nuances. So I, I talked about a lot of this in The Obesity Code. In The Hunger Code, I talk a lot more about the nuances of, you know, it's not necessarily the carbohydrates, but it's really the insulin that's the issue, because insulin is the hormone. And, and so I dive a lot deeper into the whole process. Like, it's not just about the carbohydrates, the proteins, fats, carbs. It's not just about the calories, but also about the process of digestion, then absorption, which affects the hormones, which affects your weight, right? And all along that path, there are ways to adjust it. Just like, you know, for carbohydrates, you can try to increase your resistant starch.

Jason Fung
You can try to eat things that are higher in amylose versus amylopectin. You can use vinegar and other organic acids to reduce the insulin effect.

You can change your meal timing, like eating the proteins first, or you can try eating earlier in the day. You can do things like walking after a meal. All those things Are going to affect your insulin levels, which is going to affect your weight gain in the end.

Melanie Avalon
I had no idea about the amylose versus amylopectin and the different types of it. Like, I, yeah, I h- I, I was, uh, really blown away by that.

Actually, one of my favorite tips because, again, so listeners, there are, there's all these different sections in the book. It really covers... Like, you did an excellent job at at covering all the things that, you know, could play factors in people's different types of hunger. But one of my favorites, and I actually went on a, a rabbit hole tangent looking at more research around this topic because I just found it so interesting. But it was the thing that you mentioned about how the prefrontal cortex is probably involved in our hunger because they did studies with people with amnesia, and if they didn't know that they had eaten, they would, like, they would just eat a- it all again.

Jason Fung
Wasn't that fascinating? It's like wow.

I think they wound up eating... And, and I'm sure you couldn't do those studies now because it's a little bit unethical, right? But, uh, yeah, so in the study they, they took people out to a meal, gave them a full meal. They ate, and then like 10 minutes later gave them another full meal. They ate all that, and then when they gave them a third meal they ate like 80% of that or something like that. It was like wow, that's ridiculous.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting and, and it led to one of my favorite tips which was make meals memorable. And when I went down the, the rabbit hole, 'cause I was like, "That's so interesting," so I, I went down a whole rabbit hole like reading reviews of the studies on memory and episodic eating and distracted eating.

And one of the things I was reading was saying that, like, if you eat distracted, not only do you eat more then, but you actually eat more later and it's because you were d- you weren't remembering. Like, the, the brain basically like remembers what you last ate. And so you have a tip where you say make meals really memorable. Like add spices, like, you know, make them flavorful and memorable in a moment and that'll actually have an effect, which I found fascinating.

Jason Fung
Mindfully as well, so make sure you're not like distracted and all that. Make sure you're savoring and, you know, being grateful and all this sort of stuff. Like, it's actually really important stuff. Like even though it's not always measurable, I think there is a lot of scientific truth to these things which often gets poo-pooed like, "Oh, you can't measure it," right? Th- they're still really, really important.

So to dumb it down to a single factor like it's all calories, right, is, does it such a disservice because it's like it had nothing to do with the calories. It had to do with the fact that you were, you know, watching the movie and stuffing your face with the popcorn just out of pure mechanical habit, right? And they've done all these studies, right, where they fill people's popcorn tray. Like I don't know if you've read those studies but, you know, when people are ea- eating popcorn they gave them like really stale, f- awful popcorn. People just ate it anyway because they're so distracted by the movie they just didn't care, right? And it's like and then when they ate the popcorn when they weren't watching the movie they're like, "Oh, this is awful." It's like it's very funny this whole, this whole thing. But yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to what you're saying and, and, and again, why would we deny the truth of all that, right? Because it does play a role in eating behavior.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, completely. And speaking of the ultra-processed food, you mentioned that our, so our total energy expenditure today is down, however our physical activity is actually up.

So the difference there, is it that the metabolism is actually down or do you think it's the, speaking of the ultra-processed food, could it be that the thermic effect, like just processing these foods is so easy now that we have lost that aspect of it?

Jason Fung
It certainly could be the thermic aspect of food because a lot of the ultra-processed foods are basically pre-digested, right? They're trying to make it easier to digest so therefore it bypasses all of those sort of satiety mechanisms much more quickly. So if you think about satiety mechanisms, there are ways that our... Satiety is the way that our body signals us that, "Hey, you're full. You need to stop eating." So if you eat a very bulky meal, right, like, you know, something like leafy green vegetables or broccoli or whatever, it's a big, big volume. It fills up your stomach, right? And therefore you get the message that you need to stop eating. Or when you eat foods that are hard to digest your body, your, it, it stays in the stomach. So when food goes down into your stomach your stomach actually holds it and then sort of churns it around, mixes it, puts in stomach acid and so on. But natural foods are actually, are held there much longer. Ultra-processed foods tend to get, go through the stomach very fast. It's called gastric transit time. And so if, if the food is being held in the stomach then your body's gonna get the message that, "Hey, you should stop eating because your stomach is full," right? So anything that's very bulky, right? And there, there, there used to be this thing called the volumetrics diet which had, uh, you know, a decent amount of research behind it or, you know, there, there's old methods like, you know, chew your food like 40 times each, right? And, and again, that's to make it mindful, to make it memorable so that you're slowing everything down, right? So if you're eating slowly you're going to have time for the satiety mechanisms to catch up. So yeah, it could be certainly the thermic effect. It could be the ultra-processing of foods. It could be... I, I think there's actually probably a lot of different things that contribute to this.

But it was interesting because of the lot, the research was basically saying that if you look at the activity of modern humans, 'cause there's this argument that people are less active now. You know, we walk. It'd be in the past when we used to drive and now we drive sort of thing. But that actually doesn't hold up because how much energy we expend through sort of movement and exercise throughout the ages has actually remained relatively constant. So this obesity epidemic isn't simply that, "Oh, now we have cars." Well, we had cars in 1920 The obesity epidemic didn't get going until the 1980s. So it's not the car- it's not a car problem, if you will, right? It's still ultimately a diet problem. I think there's multiple aspects, right? Because certainly if you're more active, then you're less likely to do other things, but they play different roles. So exercise is one of these things that has, you know, it's not the calorie effect necessarily. It could be the effect on stress relief. It could be the effect on the sympathetic nervous system. There's so many different aspects to it other than the calories, right? But it's a complex subject, right? And I think it deserves some...

Jason Fung
You really have to think about it because there's, you know, in, in the book there's, like, 50 tips, which means there's, like, 50 different ways you can go off the rails, right? And the problem is when somebody says, "Oh, it's all this one thing, calories," right? Then you're missing the other 49 other things, right?

It's like, that could be the problem.

Melanie Avalon
So actually to that point, so thought experiment, because we're saying, you know, that it's not all one thing. If we didn't have processed foods or ultra-processed foods, if it, if we only had access to whole foods, do you think that would, would that solve it for the majority of people?

Jason Fung
I would think that that's a very big step in the right direction because it takes care of a lot of the issues around homeostatic hunger. So natural foods trigger sort of satiety mechanisms. Like, you can eat, you know, a hamburger patty, but could you eat 50? Unlikely. It's, you know, it's just very, very hard to do. Whereas if you eat, like, one potato chip, could you eat 50? Yeah, quite easily, right? Or if you had one sip of cola or, or soda, could you drink a whole liter of soda? Uh, probably, right? Because natural foods have natural satiety mechanisms, so therefore that takes care of the whole homeostatic thing, and it also takes care of a lot of the hedonic things because the ultra-processing is what, what we were saying about the processing is what leads to the sort of extra reward that you get with foods, right?

And that's been engineered in by different ways. Like, you know, they've written books about, you know, the bliss point and stuff. What's the exact proportion of salt and sugar and fat, and what chemicals can we use? What texturizers, what emulsifiers, what artificial flavors, what artificial colors, right? It's, it's a very scientific process of how to get you to eat more and more and more. So but when you stick to natural foods, you're not only gonna take care of that homeostatic hunger, the physical hunger, because you're not gonna have natural satiety hormones. You're gonna take care of a lot of the emotional problems because, again, you, it's very hard to become addicted to natural foods because people don't say, "I'm addicted to shrimp," right? So that takes care of two big things, and then it's just the social part of the hunger. But again, you know, it's, it's not like they're ind- independent of each other. If you solve two of the, the three big problems, well, you're most of the way there, right? And that's simply by cutting out a lot of ultra-processed foods. And the other thing about ultra-processed foods, again, food addiction and ultra-processed foods, research on this is, is really just exploding in the last five years. There's so much evidence. And now, of course, with new dietary guidelines and stuff, there's this huge focus on ultra-processed foods, which I think is very, very welcome. Because what it tells you is it's, it goes way beyond just the sort of calories, just the macronutrients, right? The protein versus fat versus carbs, to understand about processing as part of the problem, and I think that's, that's something that is, I think, very, very interesting and we're only gonna hear more and more about that in the, in the future because the data's just coming in.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. To that point, do you think... I think about this a lot, like, especially, you know, something like smoking and tobacco was so prevalent for so long and such a normal part of society, and now it's very much, you know, people don't... They know it's not a good thing and it's not cool to do anymore.

And with the, with the ultra-processed foods, like, slowly things have been actually taken out, like trans fats and then, you know, like, red dye, whatever recently, and then, you know, the, the food pyramid changing. Do you think there actually is a future where the culture changes as a whole and we actually stop eating these, or do you think it's too ingrained in the system?

Jason Fung
No, I think, I think you have to acknowledge where the problem lies first, right? So if you think about smoking, the real change was when, you know, people... When the surgeon general said smoking is bad for you and you should stop smoking, right? It still took, like, 20 years. One of the big things, I think, was stopping the advertising of cigarettes to minors, right? So if, if you think back, right, they, they used to advertise cigarettes to children all the time. They had this very famous character called Joe Camel, which was one of the most recognizable figures, you know, anywhere, and it represented, you know, one of the, uh, you know, Camel brand cigarettes. And they had, like, cigarettes in the vending machines, right? Which, which sounds completely insane now, right? That you could go into any hospital or anywhere and just go to a vending machine and buy a package of cigarettes, and they sold cigarettes in the pharmacy, right? This is... Like, it's just the most bizarre thing to think about these days.

I actually worked as a student when I was in high school, I worked in the pharmacy, and, like, half my day was selling cigarettes in the pharmacy, right? So it's, it's, it's totally bizarre, but to think about that now, you had the, you know, the old cars, remember, had the little ashtray on the, on the thing. The, the air- old airplanes had a little ashtray on the side. Like, totally bizarre. So yeah, definitely we can change. It's just a matter of getting- Behind it. So ultra-processed foods is in that process. And what's funny is that tobacco companies in this process of, you know, they, they were slowly getting edged out because everybody was basically taxing them and putting restrictions on advertising and, you know, no more cigarette vending machines and stuff. So they actually went out and bought all the ultra-processed food companies, and basically applied the exact same playbook, right? So they started advertising to kids and sugary cereals, and, uh, you know, buying the research off, right? And saying how you had to eat breakfast and all this sort of stuff. They exact- applied the exact same playbook. And it really wasn't until you started to ban all the advertising that you really started to make the smoking sort of uncool, right? 'Cause before people would smoke because it was cool and they didn't care that they would get lung cancer. Everybody knew that anyway. They still smoked, but it was cool, right? So th- that's the thing that really sort of I think turned the tide in, in the United States was that sort of banning of advertising, getting rid of Joe the Camel and stuff, right? Uh, Joe Camel. You know, it, it was just a, it was sort of this great, you know, example of how to do things right. So I think we're in that process now with ultra-processed foods where we're saying that, "Hey, these chemicals and these things are bad for us," right? I mean, a lot of this stuff is, is just not stuff we should be eating.

Jason Fung
So you look at the market for like whole foods and organic foods and, you know, non-processed foods and people wanna be healthier, but y- they need the help to say, "Look, it's really important. We need to focus in on this and maybe we need to stop advertising to kids and maybe we need to take away some of this, you know, this, this advertising for ultra-processed foods, that we need to get people just back to eating natural foods," right? But it's a long process.

It's like a two-decade process even for something as clear cut as smoking, right? But we've started and that's, that's encouraging because up until this most recent dietary guidelines, everybody is stuck on calories, calories, calories, right? And, and the reason that calories is, is such an effective boogeyman is that nobody sells calories, right? So you could go like no, you, you buy food, you buy drinks, you buy snacks. You don't buy calories, right? So therefore by putting it, uh, a- as calories, calories, kind of making calories the, the, the, the sort of villain is that nobody suffers, right? You can still go selling your potato chips and your, you know, uh, ultra-processed foods because hey, broccoli has calories, steak has calories, right? So they're, that's no different, right? So they're trying to lump themselves in. It's, it's, it's very sneaky what they're doing but this, this research on ultra-processed foods is slowly sort of peeling back the, the dangers of it, right? And there's been a couple of very, very interesting studies. One four months ago looking at the effect of ultra-processed foods on kids' behaviors, which I thought was very, very interesting and there's a clear link, there's a clear association between how much ultra-processed foods they eat and their behavior in schools, right?

So it, it goes beyond just weight. It's, it also, we talk about attention spans and, you know, mental health. That could be playing like a very important role and, you know, a lot of the ultra-processed foods really stimulate insulin and just yesterday I saw this study on post-menopausal women. They looked at the nurse's health study, so 34,000 people or something like that, and they looked at all different diets and said, "Which one is the best? Which one do, do perimenopausal women do the best in in terms of cardiac health and weight?" And it was the low insulin diet. So eating things that don't stimulate a lot of insulin was by far and away the best diet to do, which is exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about cutting down refined foods, refined carbohydrates in particular, you know, intermittent fasting which is another way to lower insulin. All those ways to lower insulin is the way to prevent weight gain in perimenopause, which is sort of one of the highest risk periods.

Just talking about me- perimenopause as an aside, I always think it's, it's, it's so funny because you have all these people that tell you it's all about calories, calories, calories.

Jason Fung
But it's like okay, if it's all about calories and therefore about willpower, then why is it that women in perimenopause always complain about weight gain? So you can look up any study. Women gain weight in perimenopause. That's just a fact, right? Everybody knows it.

If you actually listen to people, they'll tell you, "I'm eating the same thing, I'm doing the same thing as I did for the last 15 years. Nothing's changed, but now I'm gaining weight." Like it's not a calorie problem 'cause their calories are the same. It's not an activity problem. Their activities are the same. The problem obviously is their hormones. Their hormones are changing. They're perimenopausal. So if it's the hormonal part that's changing that's causing the weight gain, why are we focused on calories? It was the hormonal change. I don't know if it can be any more clear than that, like honestly. And that's why you have to focus on the hormones.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, to that point I actually have like a dozen listener questions. I don't I don't think we're gonna get to really any of them, but Mariss for example, she said, "Why are all my numbers A1C, fasting insulin rising in perimenopause when I do daily 20, 22 to 24-hour fasts, work out with weights, stop eating by 6:00 or 7:00 PM and take berberine?

So frustrating," with three exclamation points.

Jason Fung
It is frustrating. The problem is like estrogen and progesterone, which are two of the big hormones that change, determine weight. Like think about it this way. I mean, if you change your diet, your diet you can change insulin predominantly. If you were talk about stress and all this stuff, gonna affect mostly cortisol. But the problem is actually estrogen, progesterone Right? So that's why you're doing all the sort of right things, but those things are focused on different hormonal systems. The estrogen, progesterone part, you may not necessarily be able to fix because hormone replacement therapy is still a pretty controversial topic, right?

But if you think about it, it's actually really important because during-- when estrogen goes up, for example, then your appetite starts to go down, and you can actually track this in the menstrual cycle. So if you look at during a, the, the 28-day cycle, they, they've done these studies where they've looked at women, and they actually-- as you go from day zero to 14 ovulation, estrogen is rising and people are eating less and less. So if you look at the calorie intake, a normal cycle, it actually goes down from sort of day zero to day 14. And then after ovulation, estrogen goes down, progesterone goes up. And as the progesterone goes up, it's a stimulant to appetite and they start to eat more. So there's this very predictable pattern of sort of estrogen going down, going, you know, you're going up at the beginning of the cycle, you're eating less and then progesterone going up. So, you know, during menopause of course, those levels are sort of all going out of whack, estrogen's going down. So therefore you're losing that protection. People may be more hungry, right? And then the change in progesterone as well in terms of, you know, eating behavior but also fat storage. Because remember, it's not just about the calories you're eating, right? It's about where your body is directing those calories to, right? So if you think about estrogen and testosterone, for example, during puberty. So b- prior to puberty, men-- boys and girls have roughly the same amount of body fat. After puberty, after, you know, when they're 18, girls have about 50% more body fat. Is it willpower? No, not at all. It's because the boys have testosterone which directs all of their energy, all of their calories into building muscle. And in girls you have a lot of estrogen and progesterone which is directing a lot of the, uh, calories towards subcutaneous fat in the breasts and the hips in preparation for childbearing, right? So it makes sense, but the, the gain in fat had nothing to do with willpower, diet, all this kind of stuff, right? It had everything to do with estrogen, progesterone and testosterone. So, so that's the thing. That's the answer to the question. Unfortunately it doesn't help you in terms of what you can actually do about it necessarily because if you work on the diet more, it wasn't a insulin problem. If you work on like the stress more, it wasn't a stress problem, it wasn't a cortisol problem, it was the estrogen, progesterone problem, right? So should you take hormone replacement?

Jason Fung
Like those are questions that are a bit controversial, right? So the whole hormone replacement question is there's been sort of a couple of hundred de-- hundred and eighty deg-degree, uh, flip-flops in the last few decades, so, you know, that's a different question.

But that's the, that's the answer is like it's, it's a hormonal issue but it's an estrogen, progesterone issue rather than the other one which is why it's often very frustrating that you can't attack it with a diet.

Melanie Avalon
To that point, I love, love the example of puberty and how the fat deposition changes because I love when there's an example where it just makes things so obvious. Like clearly hormones are playing a role if a boy and a girl can eat the same amount of food and it becomes fat or muscle or whatever-- like wherever it goes on their body is different because of their biological sex. Like how much more clear can you get?

Or like, or with, um, like the ultra-processed foods, the concept that, you know, a lot of poverty will have like obesity problems. So how-- you know, if it's a lack of money to buy food and they're buying ultra-processed foods and they're actually gaining weight, like I just feel like that's a really good example of clearly there's a problem here with ultra-processed foods.

Jason Fung
Yeah. Yeah. Because really if you think it's a, you know, willpower problem, the rich people should actually have more obesity issues, right? But they don't.

Why? Because they don't tend to eat those cheaper sort of ultra-processed foods, right? They'll go for the more expensive natural foods which are better for you in that they're, they, they activate the normal proper sort of satiety signaling and hunger signaling and all this sort of stuff, right? So it is, it is-- you know, once you start to think about the sort of epi phenomenon on obesity and, you know, linked to socioeconomic status and stuff, it makes way more sense when you, when you have that framework other than calories in, calories out, right? Which is such a, such a simplistic flawed notion. It's like anybody who says that to me, uh, you know, I, I sort of instantly know that it's like, okay, these people haven't really thought about it too much, right? You know, and, and it's very, it's, it's very hard to sort of get through to those people because they're so sort of set in their ways of thinking. They, they think that it's all a math problem when it's, it's actually a much more complicated issue of not just hormones but it goes further than the hormones. It comes into, you know, emotions and social situations. It's just like if you look at countries for example, it's like Japan has one of the lowest obesity rates in the world and the United States has more. Is it just a willpower problem? I don't think so. And what happens when you take that Japanese person and plunk them down into San Francisco? Well, they gain weight. They gain a lot of weight, right? Then within a couple of generations the Japanese Americans are actually just as obese as the regular like Americans. And it's like why? What's the difference? It wasn't genetics, 'cause they're still the Japanese people. They're, they're still Japanese. The difference was the environment that they're in, right? The, the people around you influence what you do to a huge degree. So this is called social modeling And that's why they have these social influencers, right? Influencers on social media. So that's why they're so important. That's why everybody's paying these influencers to tout whatever, because they know that those people, you know, have an outsized influence. That is, you know, and, and, and we all know this, right? Like, peer pressure is the term we use in, in schools and stuff. What your friends do is what you do, right? That's really important. But it extends further than that all through your life. Everybody around you is eating natural foods, you'll eat natural foods, right? If everybody around you is eating ultra-processed foods, you're eating ultra-processed foods. And that's the difference, not the, not the willpower, not the anything else. It's where you live. Like, where you live actually determines to a huge extent your rate of obesity. If you live in Japan, your rate of obesity is very low. If you live in America, it's very high.

Jason Fung
If you live in Italy, it's very low. If you live in New York City as an Italian, it's very high, right? So it's like, it's where you live. That's really important.

And again, why don't we acknowledge this? Because we're stuck in this, you know, simplistic notion of calories in, calories out. That's all it is. It's all about willpower, and your friends don't make difference, and where you live doesn't make a difference, and your emotional status makes-- doesn't make a difference, and your hormonal status makes no difference. It's like, no wonder we've gotten nowhere in the battle against obesity, 'cause we didn't even begin to understand the complexity of the problem.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I'm just thinking about all the messaging that just further supported this whole issue.

Like with the, like Coca-Cola, I think, like the companies that would put all the focus on exercise. So like, "Oh, let's raise all this money, so put the focus on exercise so that people can keep drinking, keep drinking Coca-Cola."

Jason Fung
They put a lot of money. They put millions and millions into promoting exercise. And exercise is good in many ways, but for them, for Coca-Cola, it was a way to sort of take themselves out of the blame and then put it on something else. Like, you know, "Don't blame the sugary soda for your obesity. Blame your lack of exercise," right? That's the messaging that's there, right?

And un- unfortunately, they have huge clout because, you know, they have lobbyists and all this sort of stuff. So even if you look at people who are very well-meaning like Michelle Obama, it's like, "Oh, we're gonna do this. Let's move," or whatever. It's like, okay, well, how about let's have better food and get rid of the ultra-processed foods and get rid of advertising to children, right? Because that's what worked for, for smoking. Like, we gotta get it so it's not like, you know, it's not in their face all the time that they should be eating. You know, you watch television or whatever and there's advertising for snack foods constantly on streaming, on billboards, on, you know, everywhere you go, right? It's like, okay, well, even though she was very well-meaning about it, she chose the least effective way to do it, right? Which is exercise.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Another one, and I know this is a little bit controversial to say, but the, like, the health at every size movement.

So I, I'm all for, like, love yourself at every size and body positivity and body acceptance, and yet there was this whole movement where they were l- literally trying to say that it was healthy to be metabolically unhealthy. And I f- feel like it was, I feel like it was because it is so hard to make these changes because of where, like the, the conditioned hunger and the soc- the societal hunger. And so it's just easier to, like, write it off as healthy.

Jason Fung
Yeah. And I, I really didn't like that either because it wasn't actually true, right? So it, it was, it was ... You know, there's a lot of health consequences of being overweight and obese. And, and, and a lot of the studies coming out of the GLP-1s, the Ozempic studies, are basically showing exactly that. When people lose weight, there's actually all sorts of improvements in health parameters that you can measure, right? Diabetes, heart attacks, strokes, all this sort of stuff. And back pain and knee pain and all this sort of stuff. So the problem I had with the whole body positivity is not that they shouldn't be positive, but it's like, don't lie to people that this is actually healthy. It's not actually healthy, right?

So it's fine. Don't-- You shouldn't be fat-shaming. You know, we should be treating people with compassion. Just like, you know, the problem with, and I think the, where it arose, came out of this whole calories in, calories out. So the story we get sold is that it's all calories in, calories out, so you just need to eat less or move more. It's all about calories. Just like your other guest was saying. It's all calories. It all comes down to calories. So if you can't lose weight, then you didn't have enough willpower to eat fewer calories or move more, right? It's a willpower problem, right? It's a discipline problem, right? So therefore, if you're overweight, it didn't just mean you're overweight. It means you're lazy and stupid, right? So that's where the whole fat-shaming came out. It came, comes out of this calories in, calories out messaging. That's why I call them the calorie police, because you're not treating people with compassion anymore, right? Just like if you have somebody who's an alcoholic addict, right? You could say, "Uh, it's all alcohol in, alcohol out," right? If you can't break the addiction, you're just lazy or stupid, right? It's like, no, they're addicted. Like, let's treat them with compassion. And that's where Alcoholics Anonymous is like, okay, spirituality, forgiveness, you know, making amends, all this sort of stuff, right? And I think we have to do the same for obesity. It's not necessarily their f- their problem. It's not, it's not a willpower problem, it's not a discipline problem, it's not any of that. But let's figure out what the problem actually is. Is it a sleep problem? Is it a stress problem? Is it a hormonal issue? Is it an ultra-processed food issue? Is it a social issue? Is it a ha- habit issue? What is it? So that we can fix it and treat people with compassion rather than labeling them as if this is all calories, therefore this is all willpower, therefore your weight is really a reflection of your, you know, moral status, right?

You don't- You know, willpower and all that sort of stuff. So that's, that's where I think I, I really don't like the, uh, the whole calories in, calories out, all those calorie bullies, because it really leads to sort of a detrimental sort of attitude towards treating obesity as a willpower problem, when it never was. It was actually s- much more complicated, much more nuanced.

Jason Fung
But rather than trying to understand the nuance, they're bas- basically trying to hammer us with this calories, calories, calories, right? And so that- that's where that fat positivity movement came out of, like, we shouldn't be shaming people. We shouldn't be doing this. And I absolutely agree with that.

On the other hand, you shouldn't be telling them that this is healthy, right? It's like, like telling people lies is never good. It, it, it's never a good strategy, right?

Melanie Avalon
Not the solution. Yeah.

Jason Fung
Yeah. It's like, I agree you shouldn't fa- shame these people. I agree you should treat them, but don't just tell them it's healthy because it's not healthy.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Could not agree more.

A nice maybe ending question. Zoe, she said she read The Obesity Code, and she wants to know if any of your theories or ideas on diet and fasting have changed since publishing that book.

Jason Fung
If anything, I'm more convinced of the correctness of, uh, of that book, honestly, because as I mentioned, if you look at the, um, the... what, what people are talking about now, they're talking about insulin, and they're talking about fasting with much more acceptance. So all the studies coming out now are showing that, hey, it's really a hormonal issue. It's not a calories issue. You know, that study that k- I was telling you about yesterday, that just came out yesterday in the Journal of the American Medical Association, again, the low-insulin diet was the best diet by far, right? So getting to the complexity of that. So all of the stuff about insulin, about cortisol in The Obesity Code, it's all, it's all still there. It just took a lot longer than I thought for people to accept it.

But, you know, and that's where The Hunger Code sort of takes off from The Obesity Code. It's really a follow-up. And if you read the, uh, The Hunger Code, you'll notice some people... It's funny because I read this one comment saying, "It's a rehash of The Obesity Code." I'm like, there's nothing about any of, of The Hunger Code in The Obesity Code, right? I talk about hedonic hunger, conditioned hunger, homeostatic hunger, gastric transit times. You know, there's nothing in there, right? You know, other than maybe the first little bit, which is basically, you know, expanding on the hormonal piece. But that's where I think this is trying to take off from. But no, I, I haven't changed my mind about any of that. It's, I think the research is really just coming in stronger and stronger that we have to focus in on all of these issues, right? The insulin and the cortisol was the focus of The Obesity Code, right? So again, eat fewer refined carbohydrates, and I made a clear distinction in that book that it was the processing, right? The unrefined carbohydrates are not necessarily a bad thing, right? You can eat a lot of natural grains and stuff and still be fine, right? You don't have to cut them all out. You could if you want to, but you don't have to, right? There are other ways to sort of get to that. So that's, you know, that's, that's my feeling. It's, it's, it's, if anything, sort of held up to the s- to the, the test of time, if you will.

Melanie Avalon
One just really quick note about the insulin thing. Something I like that you said in this book, and it's because I feel like people are always like pair, pair carb... Well, you talk about no naked carbs, but I feel like people are always like, "Pair carbs with fat.

Pair carbs with fat." And I'm like, I don't know why the messaging isn't pair carbs with protein because for me, fat, like if you look at the studies, it seems that it just elongates... It doesn't change the area under the curve much. It just kind of like elongates the, you know, the release of the carbs compared to protein where I feel like it mitigates that a little bit.

Jason Fung
I think that both of them can work, but the problem is, you know, sometimes when you pair carbs with fat, it can result in a very-

Melanie Avalon
Like hyperpalatable?

Jason Fung
Yeah, hyperpalatable rewarding situation. Like if you take pure starch, it's not that good, right? Like if you just take boiled potato, like pure starch, it's not that tasty that people are just gonna keep eating it, right? But if you pair it with fat, like french fries, potato chips, right, then all of a sudden it's really, you know, a lot better, right?

Same thing with fats, right? If you take pure fat, again, you can drink olive oil, but not that many people do because it's not that tasty, right? It's not that great to drink olive oil. You can, but it's not great. But then again, you s- pair it with a little bit of carbohydrate and it's a bit of an unnatural situation because carbohydrates are the way that plants store energy. So if you think about carbs, it's like potatoes and rice. That's the way a plant stores energy. Animals store energy in the form of fat, right? So when, when animals eat, like a pig or a cow or whatever, and they want to store energy, they store fat. They don't store starch, right? That's just the way it is. So therefore, they're two different sort of storage forms, so in nature, they, they don't mix that much. So that's why when you pair them together, you get these novel combinations that can be very palatable. So pairing the carbs with the fats is a little on the tricky side because it is a little bit unnatural because they're, they're just the way that people evolved, right? Plants have starch and animals have fat, right? So they don't mix and that's why when you go to a very, very... You know, some plants do, of course, coconut oil and avocado oil and stuff. But in general, it's, it's, it's, it's, th- they're, they're a little bit exclusive to one another. So yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to be careful. Sometimes the carbs plus the fat can work, and sometimes it doesn't work.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. For me, I, I just feel like it's like carbs stimulating the insulin and then the fat easily stored, so together- Maybe not the best combination all the time?

Jason Fung
Yeah, it w- it may not be the best combination, and that's where something like protein may be a better sort of intermediary for separating them in the meal or, you know, something else. But a- as I said, this is all great discussion because this sort of points out the complexity of the whole situation, right? Everybody wants to be like, "Carbs good," or, "Carbs bad," or, "Fats good," or, "Fats bad." It's like, ah, there's a lot more to it than that.

Like, i- i- and, and the more you know, the better you'll do because then you'll be able to appreciate the nuance of hey, this is this, this is this, right? So this is the whole thing about the calories is like you're trying to make it into ... You're trying to shoehorn all of this complex physiology into a single statement of calories, right? It's like, you can't do that. Just like heart disease, it's not just about smoking, right? What, what causes heart disease? Well, it's age, it's sex, it's diabetes, it's high blood pressure, it's cholesterol, it's exercise, it's, you know, smoking. You, you know, there's like 10 different factors that affect heart disease. It's like there's lots of different things. Whereas obesity is like, oh, it's only one thing, calories. Like, why? Like, how, what disease does that, right? No disease in humans is like a single factor like that. Maybe a few genetic diseases, but other than that, everything's this multifactorial, complex mix of things, so you have to attack all of them, right? Whereas with obesity it's like, oh, it's a simple one thing, math, right? It's like, okay, well, if that's what you think, y- you've already lost, right? You have the wrong idea about what, what the disease is, so therefore you're not gonna be able to treat it.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. So takeaway is nuance and all the things. And friends, again, cannot recommend enough The Hunger Code. Get it now.

We only barely scratched the surface. It's all in there. And thank you so much for everything that you do, Jason. Like I said, I've been following your work from day ... Well, not from day o- I mean, I don't know what your day one was. Not from day one, but, but from, from my day one in this world. The last question I just ask every guest on the show, and it's just because I realize the importance of mindset, which is something that you talk about in the book as well. So what is something that you're grateful for, grateful for?

Jason Fung
I'm really grateful for, I think, you know, the, the open-mindedness of people. I've been, been, I've been grateful that a lot of people have read what I've written and been helped, and I think it's because people are looking for something sort of different than the, what they're, you know, being shoved down their throats, which is calories, willpower, calories, discipline, r- right? This no pain, no gain sort of thing, right? So I've been, I've been grateful that people have sort of read it and accepted it, and, and it always makes me very happy when I hear somebody, like sometimes somebody will come up to me and say, "Oh, I saw you on, you know, YouTube," or, "I read your book and I lost like 50 pounds." I'm like, wow, that to me is, is ... I'm so thankful that people have accepted that bec- and, and that I was able to help them, you know, without even knowing them, right?

But just by pointing out the right thing. It makes me, you know, I'm grateful for, you know, for your support and for all the people who have supported me through this to get the message out there because, again, it's, it's, it's gratifying to help people, right? And I think that's, i- it's, it's this whole thing about altruism. It's like, you know, when people look back at the great things they did in their life, it's always about helping other people. Mostly like families and friends, and I was able to help my son do this, and I was able to help my friend do this, right? So, you know, I'm grateful for, for all the support and the acceptance that I was able to help people because it makes me feel good, right? It makes me feel like I've done something important. So you know, that, that to me is, is sort of the best gift that I have gotten is that, you know, this, this feeling that I've been able to help people. So you know, and, and it's through, you know, people like yourself who have been able to spread the message and so on.

Melanie Avalon
Well, you are certainly doing that. Again, thank you so much for all that you've done. I know listeners all over are h- you've, you have changed so many lives, and they are so grateful. So thank you.

I love your new book. Friends, get it now. Get The Hunger Code, and would love to have you back in the future.

Jason Fung
Oh, absolutely. Thanks so much.

Melanie Avalon
Thanks, Jason. Bye.

Jason Fung
Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Melonie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalonex.

Please visit melonieavalon.com to learn more about today's guest, and always feel free to contact me at contact@melonieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.