The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode - #363 - Ben Azadi

TRANSCRIPT

Will Bulsiewicz
Yet at the same time, like we shouldn't live in fear of inflammation because really inflammation should be this thing that we see as being really good when it's properly channeled.

The people with the healthiest gut microbiome, gut microbiomes, those people were the ones who were eating at least 30 plants per week. Their problem is the gut microbiome. Their problem is the absence of fiber. Their problem is the absence of short-chain fatty acids. And if we could address that, their health will be transformed.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Oh my goodness, friends. What an honor it was to have Will Bulsawitz, i.e. Dr. B, back on the show. You guys know him. He is the incredible, multi-New York Times best-selling author of Fiber Fueled, and now he has his newest book, Plant Powered Plus. And like I talked about in this episode, I just really adore him because he is such a kind, loving, supportive human being. And while he comes from a very plant-focused perspective, he's very open to all dietary paradigms and people finding what works for them. So whether you love plants, have a fear of plants, whatever your thoughts on plants are, I think this conversation will leave you empowered about integrating them into your diet. I cannot recommend his supplement, 38 Terra Enough. There is a lot of confusion out there in the prebiotic world. Yes, prebiotic, not probiotic, but there is confusion in the probiotic world as well. But when it comes to prebiotics, which are the food substrates which specifically support the gut microbiome, what do you do? Do you get it from food? Should you add it in? Are you worried about digestive distress? That's where 38 Terra comes in. Will talks about it in this show, but he put years and years of research into this and tested it extensively for safety. And it's low FODMAP, which I absolutely love. So for you friends who struggle with FODMAPs, this is the way to support your gut microbiome without worrying about that. You can get 10% off your order, or if you choose to subscribe, which you can pause or cancel at any time, you can save up to 35% off your first subscription order when you use the code Melanie Avalon at 38terra.com. That's 3-8-T-E-R-A.com. We recorded this a little bit in the past. Dr. B says he has some other supplements coming out soon, so maybe there'll be even more products to choose from when you check out this link. So again, that's 3-8-terra.com with the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off your order, or up to 35% off your first subscription order, which you can pause or cancel at any time. So obviously, do the subscription. We talk about so many things in today's episode, including why you shouldn't count grams of fiber, the profound benefits of postbiotics, aka short chain fatty acids, a sneaky little thing called LPS and whether it's a friend or foe, drama and politics around the Mediterranean diet and whether or not you should follow it, what happens while you sleep with your inflammation, the difference between supplemental curcumin versus turmeric in its whole foods form,

Melanie Avalon
how to boost your serotonin levels, and so much more. The show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon.com slash plant powered. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out.

I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life, comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right, I think that's all the things. As a brief reminder, you can get 10% off Dr. B's incredible prebiotic supplement 38 Terra when you go to 38 terra.com and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon, or you can get up to 35% off your first subscription order, which you can pause or cancel at any time. And now, without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with my dear friend, Dr. Will Bulsowitz. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is a long time coming and it is with a repeat guest. That's how you know it is somebody very, very special. And friends, this is a guest that I have been following for years and years and years and you guys are probably pretty familiar with him as well. He is a multi New York Times bestselling author. And we first had him on the show for his incredible book, Fiber Fueled. And we are now back for his newest book, Plant Powered Plus, Activate the Power of Your Gut to tame inflammation and reclaim your health. That's right. I am here with Dr. Will Bulsowitz, also known as Dr. B. And friends, what I really, really love about Will's books. And I felt this when I read Fiber Fueled, I felt it again reading Plant Powered Plus, which is I know for my audience in this show, we have a lot of like keto people, a lot of low carb people, a lot of high protein people, like high animal protein people. And I think we have a good understanding of the importance of fiber of fruits, of vegetables, of all the things. And that said, I know there's a segment of you guys, myself included, who sometimes get a little bit nervous about fiber because of digestive issues and digestive distress. And there's just always a lot of questions about what is the right diet and what is the right approach to fiber and what should we be eating. And when you read Plant Powered Plus, you will not only will you get an insanely insightful and scientifically validated exploration of how fiber is actually affecting your health on so many levels. And we'll talk about in today's episode, but this book really dives deep into fiber's effect on the microbiome and the immune system and the production of like postbiotics and short-chain fatty acids, which is my personal recent obsession.

Melanie Avalon
So I love that whole aspect of it. But not only does it go into that, it provides a really healthy mindset, I think, and supportive mindset where you feel empowered to add more plants into your life without feeling, I think, the pressure or the intimidation of having to go like completely 100% vegan or something like that.

It's a very friendly, supportive book, and also very sciency on all the things. So I have so many questions. I literally have 19 pages of notes, so we'll see what we get to. But yeah, Will, thank you so much for all the work that you do. You're changing so many lives. And thank you for coming back, and thank you for being here. And congrats on New York Times.

Will Bulsiewicz
Thank you, Melanie. It's a great privilege to be back and gosh, 19 pages and notes, are we just going to rapid fire it?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, we could do that. I have never done that before we could just like rapid fire

Will Bulsiewicz
That would be kind of interesting like a new format of rapid rapid fire for like 60 minutes straight

Melanie Avalon
Oh, man. Yeah, we could do that. Or we could not. But in any case, so to start things off, again, well, obviously, I have so many questions for you. And I'll let listeners, you know, revisit our first episode as well. But okay, I'm always, you know, it's been so long, because it's been like four years.

Can you tell listeners a little bit about your personal story? And, you know, what led you to this plant and fiber obsession? And in particular, in this book, you actually, you go more into your your personal life and how that actually played a role in your health. So why are you doing this? What you're doing today?

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, well, so first of all, I am so grateful that you introduced the book the way that you did, because I see this as a book for everyone, and I don't want people to like literally judge the book by its title or its cover, because I feel that there's so much more and there's something, so there's something there, like I'm trying to give you your aha moment where you discover something about yourself, and maybe that's in the nutrition sections, and maybe it's some little tweaks that you can add to your diet without completely changing it, but also maybe it's in these other sections that really represent the plus part of this book, which includes an emphasis on circadian rhythm, on time restricted eating and fasting, supplement protocols, and like the brain-gut connection. So there's an exploration that goes far beyond just nutrition and plant-based food, things like this.

For me, like this book is the, of my three books, the most true representation of who I am and the way that I think that we should be approaching our health. It's a progression in my maturation as an author, and it's allowing me to dig into topics that I've really, really wanted to talk about and haven't had the chance to up until now, and you just must understand that like who I am, I am someone that when I was a teenager, my dream was to become a medical doctor and started this ridiculously challenging path. When I was 18 years old, I didn't finish until I was 34, and then came out, but yet along that path, I sort of sacrificed myself, sacrificed my own health, and discovered that I was the one who was sick. And in that moment, I didn't want all of the things that I had been taught to do at these incredible hospitals by these great doctors. So even though I trained at like all these great, elite American institutions, when I became the one who was sick, I took a step back and I go, be able to hold up. I don't want five different medicines for five different problems. How can I change my diet? How can I change my lifestyle? What are the things that I can do that are actually going to address the root of the problem? And that was the beginning of a transformation.

For me, it transformed myself physically, it transformed my health. It also transformed my view of healthcare, and ultimately became the way that I practiced medicine day in, day out with my patients. But I reached a point, Melanie, where like to me, there was this bigger conversation that the entire world deserved to hear, and it wasn't good enough to just be this thing that was happening in the clinic one-on-one with a few thousand people that live locally in my community, that like I needed to make this accessible. And so that's what ultimately led me into social media, ultimately led me into writing books. And I'm proud of the fact that, you know, you can go to the bookstore and grab a copy, but I'm also quite happy for you to go to the library and borrow a copy, spend a weekend with me, and let me see what I can do to try to transform the way that you see your health.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, so many things here. So actually, okay, so two things.

One, I have a habit with this show where the, so like I prep for like months and months and then the night before I put everything away and I actually go and I read all the Amazon reviews because it gives me a good perspective of like what content is resonating with people from the book. And it's like kind of like a nice overview through the reader's eyes. And the common theme, I don't know if you actually read the reviews because I think it's very healthy not to read your own reviews, so.

Will Bulsiewicz
I stopped doing that many years ago.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I know. So no worries there. But I will tell you, the common theme for me reading, because you have hundreds of reviews, everybody's experience with this book is they really feel the personal connection that you provide that you just mentioned. And I understand why, having read it and hearing you speak about it just now, you feel like this is coming from your heart. And as the reader, you feel seen and understood and heard. And so that intention definitely manifested in the pages. So good job.

Oh, thank you. The second thing, this is like just a random question, but you said it relates to what you just said, so I'm going to ask it. You said like early in the book that you, okay, you described yourself, you know, prior as like a grinder and an overachiever. And you said, I'm paraphrasing, but you said something to the fact that that used to hurt, like, that it used to hurt your feelings. Like, I guess you didn't, you know, like identifying as that, but now it's a cherished part of your self identity. I'm actually just really curious that, you know, that drive and that grind mindset and everything, because I'm the same way, but I'm still haunted by it as wondering, like, if I shouldn't be that way. Like, do you really feel like it's a cherished part of your self identity?

Will Bulsiewicz
Uh-huh, I do. Yeah, so I think like it's a question of if someone calls you an overachiever, should you be offended by that? And when I was in my 20s, I remember after my intern year at Northwestern, so you must understand that the internal medicine program where I trained in Chicago is one of the most difficult programs to get accepted into. We have, I think we had like between three and 4,000 applications for 40 spots. And then among those doctors who are all elite, and I would so happily like turn my health over to them and let them tell me what to do, I ended up being the one, the one person who won the award. And you sort of like get this response from people like, you know, hey, you're just such an overachiever. And in that moment, it kind of hurt my feelings.

Like, are you saying that I don't deserve what I got? Right? And that was, you know, I was 26 at the time. So I feel like, especially from a guy's perspective, I was such a baby, I was such a kid. And so I was still trying to figure out who I was. And now, you know, here I stand before everyone, I'm 45. And like, I feel like I'm in the prime of my life. And if you were to say to me, hey, you're such an overachiever, I not only welcome that, you're damn right I am. I've worked my ass off. And I'm proud of that, right? Because I'm trying to squeeze the most from myself that I possibly can. And I wake up every morning, like basically trying to get after it. And so now it's sort of flipped from, you know, hey, this guy with a strong work ethic, but I'm a little bit scared of the idea that you could tell me that I'm not worthy to the total opposite. Look, whatever gifts I was blessed with, I accept those, but I'm also here and trying to do the best that I can with those gifts to try to expand and work hard and put them out into the world. So yeah, that's the way I feel about it. I mean, how do you feel about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon
No, I mean, I love it so much because I, I am very similar as far as like the grinding and the overchieving and being given that label. I love it.

It's like I was talking to my therapist about it this week. I was like, if you told me I can't be this way, I would be upset and I was like, because she was saying I need to accept myself, like however I am. I was like, but listen, if I wasn't doing all the things, I don't know if I could like accept that. But no, I do love it. And I do find it interesting though, because I think sometimes people who are doing all of that energetically, that it can come at the expense of their health. Sometimes that is a, you know, something that becomes an issue like with stress or burnout or all the things. So I just think it's super important to what I'm aiming for is to like do all the things and the grinding and the overachieving and accept myself and love myself and also like self care at the same time.

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, no, I'm with you 100%. And to me, part of the challenge that I've taken on is to try to accomplish, to fulfill my professional goals and simultaneously not sacrifice the energy that I put into my kids, into my family, into my wife. And so to like strike that proper balance and also take care of myself.

And so a big thing for me has been the discovery of specific health habits that actually empower me and allow me to do that. And that's part of what you actually find in this book that's different from my first book. So people always wanna know like, what is different? Well, like I'm on a journey of self discovery. I find new stuff all the time and forgive me, but when I introduce something into my life and it changes my life and it becomes a non-negotiable or I just refuse to give it up, like as a medical doctor, I wanna share that with you.

Melanie Avalon
I was hoping you were going to say that. I was like, I have to tell everybody.

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, exactly. And so then it works its way into my book, which then allows me to go out into the world and go on podcasts like yours and have this conversation.

So, you know, an example of this is the power of morning sunlight, which is chapter six, where we talk about circadian rhythm and all of the things that come from that. I didn't know anything about that. And I just discovered in recent years, and now I go outside every morning. I did it this morning. And it changes my day. I have better focus. I have more energy. I can get more done. I like plow through tasks. And then by 10 o'clock at night, I'm ready for a good night's rest.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. Okay, I'm going to do it.

I'm just going to go on the random rabbit tangent hole since we're talking about it. Because in that section, because I think there was like four ways to increase. I don't know if it was the same section, but there was a section on like increasing your serotonin levels and you know, different ways to do it. And one was the morning light exposure in the morning. And you also have a whole section on melatonin, for example, and you know, things that affect that. This question, especially for like a gut health related book, haunts me perpetually, which is these different neurotransmitters, creating them originally in our brain. So like melatonin in the pineal gland, or serotonin, I'm not sure where it originates in the brain, but compared to the gut, like we'll often hear X amount of neurotransmitters or like X amount of serotonin is creating it in your gut, or same with melatonin. What is the correlation there? So like, what's created locally in the gut? Does that really work locally? Like, does that even affect our brain? I know you talk about like transferring through the vagus nerve and things like that. But I'm just wondering when we read those studies, what correlations we can actually make to the local neurotransmitters in our brain.

Will Bulsiewicz
Okay. This is a great question. So serotonin is like, you know, in simple terms, this is the happy hormone. It affects our mood. It affects our ability to focus our energy levels. And the, we always hear this statistic, 95% of serotonin exists in the gut. That's a hundred percent true. All that is true so far. Yet at the same time, the serotonin 95% being produced in the gut, that's not crossing the blood brain barrier. It's not directly affecting your mood.

So if people make it sound like gut serotonin is the same as brain serotonin that, that actually would not be true. But the serotonin that's produced in your gut does have a massive influence on a number of different things, including your gut motility. Basically gut serotonin is the drum beat that keeps you in rhythm. And by keeping you in rhythm gives you good, regular, healthy bowel movements. When we fall out of rhythm, that's how we end up with constipation. That's how we ended up end up with diarrhea. And this gut serotonin, there's also precursors to gut serotonin that do have the ability to cross the blood brain barrier. So it's not so, I don't want to get so crazy with this, this, this, this, this, this, this. What I want to say is that we tend to treat the body in this compartmentalized fashion. And the reality, Melanie, is that the body is not compartmentalized. It's one. It's all interconnected. There's ways in which when you do things that increase gut serotonin, you are simultaneously setting yourself up to improve your mood. It may not be the serotonin itself that crosses into the brain, but there are many other aspects of your health that are getting activated at the same time that will ultimately influence your mood because the gut and the brain are so connected together.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And asking this question makes it sound like I'm staying in the reductionist pattern, but does the melatonin cross the blood-brain barrier that's produced in the gut?

Will Bulsiewicz
No, but the melatonin is interesting, because again, I am a medical doctor, went to great medical school, and yeah, I didn't know this until very recently. Actually, the vast majority of melatonin in our body is produced in our gut. So we have about 400 times more melatonin in our gut than we do compared to our brain. That melatonin in the gut is not the same as the one that's helping you to fall asleep at night.

But it is there for a reason, which is that our 24-hour rhythm, we are not the same at all hours of the day. It's not like a car that you just go turn it on and it's the same, it doesn't matter what time of day it is. We are very much adapted to the specific timings of everything that we do. But there's two main frameworks. There's daytime mode. Daytime mode is about getting activated, about making sure that we have sufficient protein for our cells and performing the tasks that we deem to do while there's daylight. And then the flip side is nighttime mode, which is we're going to bunker down, rest, recover, repair. And gut melatonin helps us to accomplish those things. It's directly connected to our gut barrier. And ultimately as a result of that will affect our gut microbiome as well. And the interesting thing about this, Melanie, is also that, again, I didn't realize this until recently that serotonin is the precursor to melatonin. So when we do specific things, you mentioned at the beginning of this section of our conversation, there's four things that I discuss in the book that you can do to increase serotonin. One is to step outside. Light exposure helps to create serotonin. This is the reason why seasonal affective disorder, which is like sort of the moody blues that people get in the wintertime. The treatment is light. The second thing that you can do is exercise. Exercise helps to enhance serotonin production. This actually is not that surprising because there's overwhelming evidence that vigorous exercise actually helps people with mood disorders. The last two, three and four, are both coming from our food. One is tryptophan. Tryptophan is the precursor to actually serotonin and it's one of the amino acids. And you can find it in all kinds of food. It's like famous for being in Turkey, but it's not just in Turkey. It's also found in like a lot of nuts and seeds, for example. And then the fourth is fiber. Fiber helps to produce serotonin in your gut. Fiber also has an anti-inflammatory effect in your brain, which can affect your mood. So fiber, it helps to facilitate this process of taking tryptophan and transforming it into serotonin. So those four things, light exposure exercise, tryptophan and fiber, help us to basically increase our bodily serotonin, which helps us during the daytime serotonin. And then the serotonin that we produce in the morning will be transformed into melatonin. You'll have it both in your gut and in your brain. The gut serotonin helps you to repair and recover overnight. The brain serotonin helps you to get into good, deep, restful sleep. So these are basically circadian tools, no matter how you sort of look at them.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you mentioned the lights with the seasonal affective disorder. I wonder, like I just got a, well not, it was about six months ago, I'm doing a study for a new like UV lamp device for vitamin D.

I wonder how close, like doing a session of that with like a bright light is compared to actually being outside. What do you think?

Will Bulsiewicz
Well, so here's the deal. It has to be the right type of light. Let me say that the way that I think about sunlight today is very different than I used to think about it. I see it as nutrition. It's something that our body needs.

And what's being served is not the same all day. The specific type of rays that we receive at seven in the morning are different than the ones that we receive at say two or three in the afternoon. So UV light helps us to actually produce vitamin D. And vitamin D is low and insufficient in many people here in America. But morning sunlight, which actually really doesn't have as much ultraviolet light, but it does have the blue light, which by the way is why our sky is blue. And it also has red light, which is like a popular thing when we think about red light devices. That is the light that we need in terms of activating our circadian rhythm. And so specifically it's the blue light that our eye has been trained to pay attention to. So there's these special light boxes that are exclusively for circadian activation where they have 10,000 lux. And that can be the alternative for people who, for example, live far up north, particularly in the winter time. But I'm always a fan of getting outside because you can't recreate the spectrum of rays and all of the other benefits that we receive from being outside using a box. There's just no way for us to do that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. And even like the direction of the light I think is important. Like there's something about the light coming from above and like the angle that it comes at, which is I think a reason or it's a reason at night you're not supposed to have on like overhead lights, even like aside from the blue light spectrum, but like you shouldn't have like lights on above you because it signals like daytime.

Will Bulsiewicz
There's so much to that story and it's like even things that we don't even pay close attention to like putting on your sunglasses when you take a walk outside. To me, I've stopped doing that because I want my body to receive that natural light.

I believe that there's benefits to that no matter what time of day I'm taking a walk. And the same is true with my glasses. The blue light, which is the important light from a circadian perspective, the blue light is a short wavelength, which basically means that it's very easy to sort of block it or disrupt it. So this is the reason why you can't just like go to a well-lit part of your house and look out the window. That's not going to do it. And it's the same reason that wearing your glasses while you're outside can potentially like reduce the benefit that you get from being outside. So just make sure that you're always taking your glasses off if you can when you're going to go outside and take a walk.

Melanie Avalon
The thing that actually convinced me to get LASIK was because I read about wearing contacts all the time being an issue for that. And I was like, okay, I'm getting LASIK.

Will Bulsiewicz
How's it turned out?

Melanie Avalon
It's like the best thing ever. Are your glasses, I've always forget near-sighted versus far-sighted, can you not see far or close?

Will Bulsiewicz
That's a good question. Cause I feel like I'm confused.

Well, so I've worn the same prescription since college. And then like recently, I think because I do so many device based things now, like I'm just like in front of a computer all day that it's starting to mess with my eyes a little bit. So I need to go into the doctor a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
But are the glasses mostly to see far away?

Will Bulsiewicz
So it's mostly to see far away, yeah. So I'm nearsighted.

Melanie Avalon
I would say, I mean, LASIK, it's life-changing. It's crazy.

You wake up and you can see. It's so weird. Something else about the circadian rhythm that I don't think I knew this before reading your book, or at least I hadn't really thought about it, but you mentioned it a little bit here, which is the being in this daytime state of being and the nighttime state of being. It is fascinating to me that the immune system is most active at night, so we're in a more, quote, like, inflammatory state at night. I kind of live in fear of inflammation, so, but at the same time, like, that's a good thing, I'm assuming, that we're in an inflammatory immune state while sleeping. What's happening?

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah. Yeah. So, well, so first of all, like I completely understand what you mean when you say that you live in fear of inflammation yet at the same time, like we shouldn't live in fear of inflammation because really inflammation should be this thing that we see as being really good when it's properly channeled. That's how we defend our body from, you know, infections and things like this. That's also how we repair, right? So there's inflammation that exists when you exercise. You go to the gym, I'll just paint a quick picture. You go to the gym, get a good workout in, you feel amazing. You go home, you go to bed, you were loose when you went to bed and then you wake up the next morning and you're sore. That's inflammation. And that was the enhancement of your immune system overnight, your immune system getting more active because your body is actually trying to repair from sort of the micro injury that exercise is. And that's a good thing because you're going to emerge and be more powerful, stronger, more resilient as a result of that inflammation.

You know, in the same way that you get exposed to an infection, your immune system is stronger, more resilient because of the battle that you had to put your body through. And to me in some level, it does make sense that we would get our immune system more active at night because again, that's our repair mechanism. But the issue is that when our immune system is active, when there is inflammation, it drains our ability to do other things. It makes you feel exhausted. This is why literally every single person who has an autoimmune disease, they all complain of fatigue. They all feel exhausted. It's an overactive immune system. So, and there can be other manifestations of this sort of nighttime inflammation concept. For example, you know, you go to bed and your nose clogs up at night and it was totally clear all day. Like what the heck? I can't breathe. And you go through the night with a clogged nose and then you wake up in the morning and within about an hour of waking up, actually clears out and your nose opens up and you feel okay. That's all circadian. That's nighttime inflammation. And then what's happening is you flip into daytime mode. And when you go from nighttime mode to daytime mode, there's a key thing that happens inside your body, which is a spike of cortisol. Cortisol is the stress hormone, but in this context, it's actually so good for you. And that cortisol is anti-inflammatory. So then your nose clears out. So these are all just different manifestations of like the circadian nature of our immune system.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's so fascinating and what I really appreciate in the book is you have a section on supplements which is by no means the overall focus of the book. There is a section on it though and you have morning supplements, your go-to morning supplements, your go-to evening supplements, and then you have, for example, curcumin from turmeric and you say take it based on when for you in your daily circadian rhythm you feel the inflammation the most, which I found was, I found that really, really fascinating.

Also really quick side note tangent because people laud the benefits of curcumin so much. I eat, actually there'll be two questions here. So I eat when it comes to turmeric like powder a ton of it, a ton of that and a ton of ginger. And you were mentioning earlier about how we have a tendency to have a reductionistic approach to the body where we segment it out and we rather than looking at it more holistically. There's all the people will talk about the benefits of curcumin as an isolated compound which gives turmeric its benefits, but you'd have to eat X amount of turmeric to get the active amount of curcumin that they study in these trials. So my million questions in this lead up is one, something like that where there's a whole food like turmeric, what are the benefits or what's the cost benefit or which direction or what is the perspective of eating it like in its whole food form like as turmeric versus like curcumin the isolated supplement. And then two, actually two I'll wait because it's like kind of a different subject matter. But yeah, so how do you approach that like nutrients from whole foods, getting them from whole foods versus getting a like a supplement form.

Will Bulsiewicz
Okay, so I'm gonna use the curcumin and the turmeric as an example to lead us into sort of a broader answer to this question, because I think it's an important question, which is that number one, I'm of the belief that we should optimize our diet as far as we can possibly take it. So like, I would never advise people, hey, take here's 15 supplements, take these 15 supplements without also simultaneously giving them dietary advice. Whenever possible, it would be my preference to get it from your diet. The issue is that what we're talking about here, turmeric is not easily compatible with the American palate. Right, like if we lived in India and we ate very spice heavy, then it would be a routine part of our diet. And I wouldn't necessarily have to talk about the option to supplement, but the truth is the average American is not eating that way.

So if you wanna get the benefits that exist associated with this, the option that you have, in addition, like it doesn't mean you stop, like it doesn't mean, oh, I'm just not gonna eat it in my diet, then I'm not gonna have china masala anymore. And then I'll have the china masala, but also know that you have this insurance policy, which is supplementation. And that allows you to basically like ensure, to me supplements are about number one, adding in what's missing, but also number two, identifying what is so important, you don't wanna botch it. And you're gonna make sure that you not only get it right, but you get it right in the optimal way. For the vast majority of Americans, I would argue like turmeric is already missing. And there's an opportunity that through supplementation, you can like very easily add it to your daily supplement routine and know that you have it on board and not have to worry about having curry five times this week. So in terms of extracts, I think that there's an important conversation that we need to have there because it's not the same to extract a nutrient and then give it impurified isolation to the body as intuitive as that may sound. That's not the way that it actually works in the real world, right? Like you can't go and say, well, this is the value of turmeric and there's nothing else in turmeric. No, that's not true. There's a ton of other stuff in turmeric, tons of other vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, fiber, et cetera. So we would much prefer to start from a whole food perspective. And if it's not the whole food, I would still prefer that it's a ground down version of the authentic food as opposed to some sort of chemical process where you're extracting the nutrient that you think is the right one and then applying it. And we have seen some issues with this. So with turmeric, we have seen studies where the isolates, the concentrates can't potentially be problematic when they're over-consumed and cause abnormal liver function. There's other examples out there like fiber, like Melanie, you know, I mean, I'm a huge believer in fiber from our diet, also from our supplements. But Inulin is an example where Inulin being extracted from the chicory root as opposed to giving someone chicory root.

Will Bulsiewicz
When you extract the Inulin, it's like a excessive concentrated monofiber that can actually, if it's over-consumed, it can cause actual inflammation within the liver. So, you know, point being, like I try to stay closer to balance and things that come from a more natural perspective.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that totally makes sense. People need to, people need to meet my diet. The amount of turmeric I eat every night is shocking. And ginger, like I said, I just love them so much.

Will Bulsiewicz
They're so good for the gut and that's amazing and I'm sure you had to work to get yourself to that point right like that's not you didn't grow up eating that way.

Melanie Avalon
Honestly, I don't know when I, yeah, I'm not sure when I started. I know I very quickly ramped it up. I was like, this stuff is good. Like, so I literally have like 12 bottles, like spice bottles, and I go through them pretty fast.

Okay, so many, so many questions and topics, because you mentioned earlier how, you know, there are all these new topics that you're, like evolving topics that you're exploring and we're excited to discuss. And okay, which, okay, here's one. So short chain fatty acids. I have recently become a little bit obsessed with short chain fatty acids. I'm actually contemplating like writing a book just on short chain fatty acids. So I loved reading everything that you had to write about them. And it's really interesting to me because I feel like in the history of our understanding of the microbiome, people have been very much alert and influenced and interested in, like, I feel like at first it was probiotics, then it was prebiotics, and now it's postbiotics. So I guess just open question. When did you, oh yeah, because that's something that you say in the book. You say that, like in your opinion, short chain fatty acids, I hope I'm not misquoting, you think they might be the most like anti-inflammatory thing you've come across, speaking of inflammation. So what has been your evolving understanding of short chain fatty acids and how much do we need to focus on them because if they're a byproduct of, you know, prebiotics and probiotics in our diet, then do we even need to like focus on them because they happen naturally from these other things? So should we focus on the precursors?

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, so short-chain fatty acids, okay, so this is a family of compounds. There's three main ones that people need to hear about, and perhaps you've heard these names before. Acetate, propionate, and butyrate. And they are produced from prebiotic fermentable fiber. So not all fiber is prebiotic. The stuff that's like the grit, you know, the roughage, we call that insoluble fiber, that tends to just pass through. And that doesn't mean it's zero value. There's still value to it, but it's not the precursor to short-chain fatty acids.

Whereas the soluble fiber, the stuff that can dissolve in liquid, the soluble fiber is the food for your gut microbiome. They consume it, it gets transformed, it stops being fiber. And it re-emerges as these short-chain fatty acids that we're discussing. The three of them, they're not exactly the same. Acetate, propionate, and butyrate have their own unique effects. So like, for example, propionate is much more of a metabolic focus. So when we think about things like blood sugar control, insulin sensitivity, propionate is the go-to star right there. Whereas butyrate is sort of the anti-inflammatory powerhouse, impacting your gut barrier, impacting your immune system, spreading throughout your entire body, impacting your brain. And then acetate is like the high-volume player. It's not as strong as the other two, but we have way more of it. So you have about three times more acetate produced than you do the other two, the propionate and the butyrate. So when did I become interested in these? There was this story, Melanie, that when, and ultimately manifested in my first book, Fiber Fueled, like I'm proud of the fact that I wrote this book. And if you want, what I see is like the most comprehensive story about short-chain fatty acids to date. I still think it's my first book. I absolutely think you should write a new book because there's new research since my first one. But I compiled all of the research that was available as of 2020 on this topic, put it into that book. And that's because this was the story that I saw unfolding in my clinic. This was the story that affected my own health. And I was putting the pieces of the puzzle together, which is all these people that come into this gut health clinic, this digestive health clinic, IBS, acid reflux, celiac disease, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Their problem is the gut microbiome. Their problem is the absence of fiber. Their problem is the absence of short-chain fatty acids. And if we could address that, their health will be transformed. So this is like a general view to how I'm thinking about what's happening in the world today and what we can potentially do about it. My goal is most of the fiber to be coming from your diet when you eat a variety of different plant-based foods, instead of like focusing on, hey, there's this one. No, no, don't worry about that. Just eat for different variety.

Will Bulsiewicz
You're going to get the balance of everything that you're looking for. You're going to serve your gut exactly what it needs in terms of many different types of fermentable fiber that becomes short-chain fatty acids and your body takes care of the rest. So I do think that there's value to supplements, but to me, the supplement is the pre-biotic, which actually feeds your microbes. And then your microbes grow stronger and your body produces short-chain fatty acids from that.

So, and we could double-click and go deeper into that if you want to, but there are new supplements and this is a whole different conversation of post-biotics. I'm super excited about the post-biotic supplement world. I exist in the supplement world because I started a company to create better gut health supplements called 38 Terra. So I'm constantly like studying this topic to figure out what is best. And I'm excited about where things are going with post-biotic supplements, but I would not use them to replace what I see as like the key piece, which is the fermentable fiber and resistant starch that our gut microbes are truly starving for.

Melanie Avalon
I was curious what you were going to say about, you know, potential postbiotic supplements and you did say with butyrate, for example, as an oral supplement that it doesn't really go where it would need to go, right, for the way it's naturally created, if taken orally.

Will Bulsiewicz
I do worry about it because when we consume fiber in our diet, we feed our microbes and there's a intentional delayed release, right? So like where something gets released into the body, when you think about different medicines and things like this, it's really, really important because your stomach is not the same as like the first part of your small intestine, which is the duodenum, not the same as the jejunum, the second part, not the same as the ilium, and certainly not the same as the colon. And where we need these short chain fatty acids is in the colon. That's the way that we're made by nature. That's where our gut microbes are. And when you consume fiber, it's a natural delayed release. The fiber is completely unchanged, passing through about 20 feet of intestine until it gets to your colon. And then the microbes in that location are releasing it to create the short chain fatty acids.

So the problem is that when you take a butyrate supplement, you, number one, like, again, bear in mind, there's three of them, acetate, propyrinate and butyrate. And the balance between them is very consistent. 60% acetate, 20% propyrinate, 20% butyrate. It's always that way. So what happens when we start cranking up the butyrate, but we're not addressing the acetate or the propyrinate? What's that gonna do to our body? We don't really know. And what does it mean when you take the butyrate and it gets absorbed in the very first part of your small intestine right after the stomach? What does that do? As opposed to getting released into the colon, which is where we're supposed to have it. We don't really know. But I think that the concern that I have is like, we're operating under an assumption that this is the same. And I don't think it is. So until proven otherwise, my preference is to go with the tried and true, which is the prebiotic supplement that targets the microbes and then allows us to feel better. I mean, I won't lie. I've definitely heard some people who have told me, hey, this butyrate supplement, it helps me. I'm so happy to hear that. But I also want data. I want research that shows me that that's the right choice for people. And until proven otherwise, I'm gonna stick to the things that are much more well-researched and much more firmly established.

Melanie Avalon
Not saying I did this, but I might have tried a butyrate enema once. I was like, I'll just put it where it's supposed to go. I never did that again, though.

It smelled so bad opening the capsule. I was like, Oh, I can't. I'm not doing this again. This is a one time only thing. It does not smell good.

It's not like a coffee enema. No, no, no, no.

So.

Will Bulsiewicz
Well, for people who have, for what it's worth, we have research studies with people with ulcerative colitis or ulcerative proctitis. Those people have chronic inflammatory health conditions, their gut microbiome really struggles with fiber.

And if you could provide them the butyrate that's missing, it can initiate the healing process. So on a limited fashion to administer that therapy through the bottom to me is like quite reasonable and that's not the same as like basically signing up for a monthly subscription to a product that you're going to take by mouth in perpetuity.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I don't want to discourage listeners. I'm just saying, be prepared.

Be prepared for the smell. Okay, amazing. And so you mentioned that the importance of getting these plants to feed these microbes. And I'm, okay, and you also, you also mentioned, you know, that we need to count, again, it might be paraphrasing, but like count plants, not grams, like count the number of plants we're eating, not the grams of fiber per se.

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, like literally said exactly that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So my question is, first of all, how many actual different types of plants do we need to be eating?

Two, say we have like a spice blend. Can that count as like 10 different plants in that one blend? Three, if you have a person who's eating a limited amount of plants, but a high grams, but a lot of different types of plants, does it come down to the individual about what may work best for them? Like how intuitive can you actually be when it comes to how many plants to eat and how to gauge that?

Will Bulsiewicz
These are great questions. I think that there's a lot of wiggle room to find what works for you. And that's part of what I present in my book is not to say, like I pretty explicitly say, this is not one size fits all, that I'm gonna build the framework, I'm gonna educate you, like exactly what are the key things to be focusing on, and then you're gonna discover the right mixer blend that works exactly for you. So I believe that there are many different paths to healing.

So when you started this episode, naming a bunch of different dietary patterns, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, I can take every single one of those people and apply the general concepts from this book to their diet in their own way, meet them where they are, start them in a process. They're not gonna end up with something radically different than what they're currently doing, but they are going to enhance it and improve how it impacts their health. So how many plants? Okay, there's the science-driven answer, and then there's my sort of more pragmatic answer. The science-driven answer is 30 per week. That comes from the American Gut Project, which was at the time the largest study across the globe to allow us to make connections between what we eat and the impact on our gut microbiome. And when they performed their analysis, the healthiest, the people with the healthiest gut microbiome, gut microbiomes, those people were the ones who were eating at least 30 plants per week. That was more important than the label that you applied to your diet. Didn't matter if you were vegan, not vegan, didn't matter. What mattered is, did you eat 30 different plants per week? To me, that's not, like it's not this magical number. You often present it that way, but it's more about the idea. It's an abundance mindset. You don't get to 30 plants per week by eating literally the same food every single week. You get there by asking the question in the kitchen, what can I add? And if you think that way, every single meal becomes an opportunity to level up. Does adding spices, varieties of spices impact your health? 100%, and I would definitely encourage that. Is that the same as eating a salad that's going to have like, you know, multiple grams of multiple different plant-based foods? No, it's not like the milligrams of a spice compared to grams and grams of a specific food. They're not the same, but it doesn't mean that I would discourage focusing on variety across all of these opportunities, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, seeds, nuts, legumes, herbs, and spices, and mushrooms.

Melanie Avalon
and mushrooms being the honorary fiber.

Will Bulsiewicz
Mushrooms aren't even plants, they're fungi, but they're so similar to plants. They have beta glucan fiber, which is specifically known to help to optimize our immune system. So to me, yes, mushrooms count.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome, okay. Another topic that I'm really excited to talk about.

So I mentioned earlier living in fear of inflammation and I say that a little bit in jest and at the same time, there probably are three health related concepts which have created substantial anxiety or fear concern for me and it's inflammation, constipation and LPS. I've been, ever since I discovered the concept of LPS like a decade ago, I've been like worried about LPS. I was excited to read about it in your book. So first of all, can you introduce what LPS is and its role in the body and how it relates to the immune system? And also, have you read Dr., I don't remember, I've had Dr. Gundry on the show a few different times and one of his books is all about LPS as a beneficial signaling molecule. Have you read, have you heard his thesis on that?

Will Bulsiewicz
No, I haven't read his books, but we can unpack that. There is definitely some nuance to LPS.

I think that we have to be careful because the overwhelming weight of the evidence is a discussion about the ways in which LPS becomes problematic for our body, but I can explain the good parts versus the bad parts because it's just a matter of sort of understanding how the body works with it, if you do like.

Melanie Avalon
Sure, yes.

Will Bulsiewicz
Okay, so first of all, like, what is LPS? Well, many, many, many years ago, before, like, long before humans existed, when the only things that we had on this planet were single cellular organisms, there were these bacteria that were sort of under attack. And so what they developed was this coat of armor that surrounds their body, and it protects them from the other bacteria that are trying to kill them. And that coat of armor is actually LPS.

So we call this lipopolysaccharide. It's a super nerdy thing, but just suffice it to say that it's a combination of both fiber and carbohydrate merged together. All right, so this coat of armor protects these bacteria, and they live with it. And they continue to live with it here today, like, you know, millions, billions of years later. And our immune system, as it evolved, became calibrated to specific characteristics of the bacteria that are bad. So our immune system started to identify and understand, oh, if I see that, that specific coat of armor, that's how I know that that particular one is a problem. And the issue that comes about is it really is a story about our gut barrier. Because living inside of us, our microbiome, we have 38 trillion microbes, and it's a diverse mix. And there's good guys in there. And there's also bad guys in there. It's a little bit like, you know, just imagine the place in which you live, right? Like, the vast majority of people, when you walk out your front door, they're good people, but you still like your door at night, because there can be some people out there that are a problem. That's why we have a police force to like sort of keep the streets clean and safe. And the gut barrier is what separates your gut microbiome from your body.

And when the gut barrier breaks down, and it's not as strong as it needs to be, things can sneak across. And these bacteria like E. coli, salmonella, shigella, these are pathogens, they all have this coat of armor, the LPS, and they'll try to sneak across the gut barrier. And when they get across, your immune system will recognize them immediately, and try to destroy them. And so that activation of the immune system, that's inflammation. And it's one thing when your body is responding to a full scale infection, but it's different when it's just like your gut barrier is weak, it's not doing its job. And then these bacteria are sneaking across and creating chronic low grade inflammation. And that's where we get ourselves into long term trouble, just like the nonstop activation of the immune system. So now, our body, our immune system is incredibly adaptable. And during the course of our lifetime, you go from like, where you are at birth, to start to build your sort of like library of understanding, your immune system is constantly adding an enhanced understanding of what is good and what is bad. And what they've shown, there was a particular study that perhaps Dr. Gundry was referring to, from Russia and Finland, where they looked at different kids and the level of exposure to LPS early in life.

Will Bulsiewicz
And there was actually some benefit to exposure to LPS in the right amounts. But when it gets to be an excessive amount, that's when our active, that's when our immune system gets activated, and we get inflammation.

So I think in the interest of like simplicity, because it's such a complex topic, what I really want people to hear and understand is like when you hear about people that are super sick and the ICU, they're on life support, they can't breathe on their own. They have medications through a special IV, just to keep their blood pressure up. That's the direct manifestation of LPS. That's the level of inflammation that occurs with an excessive amount. When we go through our days, we're not necessarily exposed to that amount, but a smaller amount can still be problematic and activate our immune system to create inflammation.

Melanie Avalon
it's even a reason historically because being in a more like animal product inclusive dietary sphere with like paleo and everything that I've been, the way I've been eating for a while, which is more approachable to things like saturated fat, which I know is a hot topic or fiery topic. But even with that historically, when I was first learning about saturated fat, I was, or sorry, learning about LPS, I was learning about how, you know, saturated fat increase the, like the availability of LPS in the bloodstream, like when taken, when eaten with a meal.

And it's not because it actually ushers it across the, the gut or the intestinal wall or what role is that playing?

Will Bulsiewicz
So we have these studies. So like the most clear example, which is one of the ones that I cite in the book is where they had people consume cream and the cream is like pretty darn high in saturated fat. And then the end result is this spike in lipopolysaccharide by 40% that occurs in the following hours. So it's not totally clear, but we do believe that saturated fat may be affecting the tight junction proteins that hold the gut barrier together.

And if true, then that ultimately will result in increased gut permeability, which people call weak gut. And that's how LPS gets across. But these things are, Melanie, so interconnected because if, for example, the saturated fat was ushering the LPS across, you would create inflammation. And when you create inflammation, that actually itself will break down the gut barrier. That by itself will actually cause damage to the microbiome as well. So I think the key takeaway here is that the gut microbiome, the gut barrier, the immune system, they rise and they fall together. So when you do things that create inflammation, you are basically taking down all three. But when you do things that are anti-inflammatory, you are elevating, fortifying, making more resilience among all three. So I think that is like, it can be the part that takes us down, but it can also be the part that is our hope for a better future, is that you can take that and use that to your advantage. So, and to the point of saturated fat, let me just be totally clear. I'm not arguing that you're on a zero saturated fat diet. I'm certainly not on a zero saturated fat diet. But I do think that we have a problem in America of a lack of balance, where we excessively consume saturated fat relative to the amounts that we need, and we insufficiently consume fiber. And that to me is where the problem really exists because you could mitigate a lot of the issues that exist around saturated fat if you were to achieve a proper balance in your diet that includes a sufficient amount of fiber.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Like even in that study, I think it was that study you referenced, one of the studies where they added, was it that study where when they added fiber, it mitigated the rise of LPS?

Will Bulsiewicz
So I discussed, there were two studies and I discussed them like back to back in the book. So it comes across almost as being the same study, but the first study was the cream in isolation that caused this big spike in LPS.

The second study was a breakfast where like basically they serve people breakfast. And you could think of the way that it's described in the book is the breakfast is almost like going to McDonald's, right? It's like a hash brown and like, you know, I forget like some sort of like egg McMuffin. Like that's basically what they were eating, right? And then they offset it with a high fiber. They added to that a high fiber addition and it basically mitigated all of the injury that was taking place through the junk food breakfast.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, which that's very, I mean, that's good about the fiber, not so much about the junk food breakfast.

Will Bulsiewicz
Well, and I think to me, like this gets back to my argument. I'm not trying to argue that a person who's eating paleo needs to feel compelled to abandon the dietary pattern, particularly if they think it's working for them.

My argument is that there's many facets to what creates a healthy diet, and the vast majority of us are dropping the ball on the plant-based side of it. That doesn't mean it's 100%. It just means that we need to make sure that we are sufficiently adding these specific foods to our diet from a whole food source in order to basically ensure, like take care of our gut microbiome, our gut barrier, get the short chain fatty acids that we're talking about, and also so much more.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I mean, this is such a reason that I so appreciate your work and talking with you because it's, like I said, it's a very supportive space to have these conversations, especially because I think people do find that different things work for them.

So to that point, can I ask you some controversial questions? Okay. So this, okay, you talk a lot about the Mediterranean diet. Oh, and by the way, I didn't mention this yet, but you, are you still currently working with Zoe?

Will Bulsiewicz
Not anymore.

Melanie Avalon
anymore but you you did serve as there was your title.

Will Bulsiewicz
So I was their US medical director for a period of four years. And yeah, it was fun.

Those are my friends. And it was one of these deals where I tried something different than, like I'm a medical doctor, I've worked in hospitals my whole life. So, and I tried something different here and had a good experience with it, but it also was a finite thing. And so as it came to the end of it, I have a lot of things that I wanna do. So it's like a matter of protecting my time with the choices that I make.

Melanie Avalon
which I completely understand and respect. Yeah, we, Tim Spector has been on the show once or twice and we've talked a lot about like Zoe, especially on the intermittent fasting podcast. But, and so, you know, they did quite a few or they have done and are doing a lot of amazing studies. And so I think the Mediterranean diet came up in some of those studies as well.

And my question about the Mediterranean diet. So this has really haunted me for a while because I had, so I had Marianne Nestle on the show. She's done a lot, but one of the books she wrote was called Food Politics. I've also had Nina Teichels and they both talk a lot about the confusion around the Mediterranean diet and the politics of it and especially like funding from the olive oil companies and how we don't really have a single definition of the Mediterranean diet, which you actually talk about in the book, it was so interesting to talk about, you know, how the Mediterranean diet has manifested in all these different cultures throughout history and like how it's different. So the Mediterranean diet, olive oil, how much is politics and funding playing a role there in these studies showing like the benefits and add four tablespoons of olive oil and all the things.

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, so I think that number one, the first step to understanding this topic is to separate out what we see as cultural foods from Mediterranean area countries. Those are widely diverse, right? Like a Greek diet is not the same as an Italian diet, is not the same as a Lebanese diet. So there may be some similarities that are held, but they're not the same.

And we must separate that from a research definition that is being applied to how we understand the pattern of what a person is eating. So we all have a pattern to what we eat. And if you were to collect the proper information from that, you can determine whether or not it fulfills certain check boxes to achieve a specific pattern. It may not, you may not think of it as being Mediterranean at all, but if you get a certain number of specific things, it is a Mediterranean pattern. And that's what we're looking for with these research studies. And that to me is not particularly controversial.

It would be controversial if you said, oh, well, everyone that lives in the Mediterranean eats the same dietary pattern. No, of course they don't. But that has nothing to do with the tools that we're applying in these research studies, which is the key piece because that's where the evidence exists. And there is, I would argue, quite overwhelming evidence to a Mediterranean pattern. And I don't think that that is dominated by outside funding. There's no doubt that many people provide funding. I mean, I think it comes on all sides on some level. And that's, I would say, Melanie, that's the most generous that I could possibly be, that clearly the dairy industry fund studies, clearly the beef industry fund studies, and so too does the extra virgin olive oil or like olive oil industry. Clearly they fund these studies, but let's look at the entire weight of evidence. A quick example, like one of the studies that I discuss quite heavily in the book is the PREDIMED study, which to me, if we're gonna get serious about nutrition, I would love to hear a person share with me a better study that's been done from a nutrition perspective in the last 25 years. This is 7,500 people. It's funded by the Spanish government. This is not funded by industry at all.

Three groups, 2,500 people per group, five years per person. And they're being randomized to one of three dietary patterns. And that is a low fat diet, I'm sorry, yeah, a low fat diet versus a Mediterranean diet that is being supplemented with extra virgin olive oil, four tablespoons, quite a bit per day. And the third is a Mediterranean pattern that's being supplemented with a handful of nuts on a daily basis. And there's a lot of papers that have come out of this. This is not one paper, this is like dozens. But suffice it to say that the, like if I were to summarize, the Mediterranean patterns dominated the low fat diet. And the shocking part to me is like coming from the perspective of being pro-fiber, I would think intuitively that the handful of nuts would be a superior choice to the extra virgin olive oil that has a fiber content of zero and a lot of calories.

Will Bulsiewicz
And the answer was in many cases, actually there were several examples where the extra virgin olive oil group did the best. So, I mean, these things, Melanie, these things are difficult on some level to discuss because if I, to the best of my ability, try to make an honest assessment, I'm sure I have my biases. My biases on some level are certainly informed by the things that I've seen work in my own life, the things that I've seen work with my patients. There's no doubt.

But at the same time, I try to make an honest assessment of what like the breadth of the literature that's out there says. It's not just one study, we're talking about what do all the studies combined leave us with? And that to me, like, I think it's quite overwhelming. I would actually argue that, you know, if all the nutrients in nutrition, like to me, fiber has the most benefit or the most evidence for being anti-inflammatory of everything. And if we're gonna talk about dietary patterns, I would argue and feel confident in saying that the Mediterranean pattern has the most evidence for being anti-inflammatory, more so than a vegetarian diet, more so than a vegan diet or any other sort of variation.

Melanie Avalon
With PrediMed, wasn't it not retracted, but they had to redo it or they had to reanalyze it?

Will Bulsiewicz
There was, yes, that there was, so for the, I mean, again, you must understand there was, there's been multiple different papers, multiple different outcome measures that were assessed. The primary outcome was a composite endpoint. So by composite, it means it wasn't just one thing. It wasn't just, did you have a heart attack? It was a combination of, did you have a heart attack, stroke, or die from cardiovascular disease? If the answer was yes to any of those, then you had the primary outcome. And if the answer was no to all three, then you did not have the primary outcome. And so that was the main thing that they were looking at.

And as I recall, and this is like, I didn't necessarily prepare for this particular question, but as I recall, there was a site where there was an issue that existed. So they had to go back subsequently and reanalyze the original data, but it didn't actually change the outcome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I again, I didn't like specifically prepare for it either my recollection was something I think also it wasn't really randomized because they used it ended up being like everybody from like the same hospital or something, but I do know that when they re analyzed it, they still had the same conclusions, I think, I think it's a good example of just all the I don't know, like this conversation right now is a good example of all the confusion out there, because it seems like regardless of what study you look at, you know, it can be interpreted a certain way or it's just it's overwhelming for people. So

Will Bulsiewicz
Well, yeah, no, I get that I, you know, it's interesting. So pretty mad is a funny example, to be honest with you, because you might have people who push back coming from a more animal oriented dietary pattern, and they might push back against it because they don't like a Mediterranean within that context.

And the funny thing about it, Melanie, is that in the plant-based world, they push back against this too.

Melanie Avalon
push back for the olive oil.

Will Bulsiewicz
They push back because it was not a 100% whole food plant-based diet. That was low on oil. And I sit here and I say, look, this is 7,500 people in a randomized control trial with strong methods and strong outcome measures. I'm not saying it's the only thing in nutrition, but when people are bringing forward their randomized control trial of 100 people and trying to compare it, that to me is not really apples to apples.

People may have different interpretations of all these different things. This is a complex topic. You and I could do a whole podcast about what this sort of like can of worms that's just opened up. But from my perspective, I look at the totality of the evidence. I've prioritized systematic reviews and meta-analyses. And this is an important part of that process because a systematic review and meta-analysis properly done. They're including all the studies, positive ones, the negative ones, all of them. That to me is like the most fair way to approach this because then you can't just cherry pick. Cherry picking is so easy with the internet.

Melanie Avalon
Unless, how do we know, I literally think this every time I see a meta analysis, how do we know that the person making the meta analysis isn't setting it up, even if they're not cherry picking with like setting up the criteria, I feel like you could set up the criteria to make it show what you want on it on all sides, like the selection criteria.

Will Bulsiewicz
Yeah, so you certainly could. You certainly could.

And this would be the argument, here's like part of the issue that exists. Have there been, are there shady doctors? Yes. Are there shady attorneys? Yes. Are there shady researchers? Yes. Does that mean that the majority of them are shady? I would argue no. I would argue my friends that went to medical school, like the people we were talking about at Northwestern, these are people who like have great compassion and want to help people, right? They're not sitting there thinking, how much money can I extract from your life and you suffer? They're not thinking that. And I would argue the vast majority of people who are in academia and like performing these studies are quite idealistic in their approach and wanting to be helpful and answer important questions. That's been my impression from like the time that I've spent in these spaces. But I think that the problem is that you can raise questions because there are examples where it's not true.

Melanie Avalon
That's really, really good to hear. I'm honestly, I'm still recovering from, I don't know if you know Charles Pillar. He's the one who broke the, he's the investigative journalist from Science Magazine that broke the story about all the fraud and Alzheimer's data research. And he wrote a book called Doctorate about it. And I'm still, it's rare that I get, I don't normally experience the emotion of anger very often. And it was shocking, like everything that happened. And so I'm still, it's good. My point is it's really good.

It's good to hear what you just said, because after that, I was like, oh goodness, I can't trust anything.

Will Bulsiewicz
I mean, I totally get when people feel that way. I totally get when people feel that way.

I have existed in all of these spaces and I understand the criticisms that exist of these spaces, medicine, research. I have not only existed in these places, I've existed in the highest level. And the same would also be true of supplements, Melanie. People 100% can sit there and criticize supplements. And I think that a lot of criticism is warranted and justified. But that doesn't mean that all supplements are inherently bad and a waste of time and money. I think that we need to learn to discriminate with who we choose to trust and believe in.

Melanie Avalon
That was the perfect segue because I was literally just about to ask you about, well, first of all, congratulations on 38 Terra. So to that point, because I know at least for me and my supplement line, it's because of what you just said that it's really hard. I agree with you. I feel like we're very, very similar in our perspective of supplements, which is, at least for me, it's like in the ideal world, we would get everything from food, we'd be good. We're not in the ideal world.

It can be hard to get everything that you need with our modern diet, environment, lifestyles, all the things. So I do think there's a place for supplements. And it's really hard to, you just need to know what you're putting in your body. And so the reason I made my line was because I wanted to, I was like, you know what, if I make exactly what I want, then I know exactly what I'm getting and putting in my body. So what you've made is, I mean, because all of my SKUs and lines, most of them are things that are very approachable, like a lot of brands make them, like magnesium, berberine, things like that. But you have a very unique product. So why did you make 38 Terra and what is it? And why is it called 38 Terra?

Will Bulsiewicz
Okay, so the real issue that came up for me is that for the same reason that you're describing, I didn't feel that there was transparency in the gut health supplement space. And patients and also people who read my books were coming out of the woodwork and asking me, what do you recommend? And in my mind, I'm like, am I really gonna say Benafiber? That's wheat dextrin owned by a drug company, probably spray with glyphosate. And we have absolutely no clue. And they're never gonna tell us. So I just felt like I can't put my name to it and I think we can do so much better.

And that's what motivated me to create the company. I started working on this in 2021. My co-founder is Simon Hill from The Proof podcast.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. I've had Simon on the show.

Will Bulsiewicz
So yeah, so we basically partnered up in creating this brand because it's something that we really believe in. And we have a vision of where this is going, which is the best formulations using the best ingredients and complete transparency.

So our first product is called daily microbiome nutrition. And it's the pre-biotic supplement that I always felt should be out there, but I never saw it because it's a blend. So I talk about like the importance of variety, but yet all these companies sell you the same thing that existed when I was a kid in the eighties. It's a monofiber. So instead what we do is we take seven plant-based ingredients from high quality sources and they're ground down from their whole food, like, you know, their whole food basis. They're just ground down, we're not extracting. And so that includes fiber, resistant starch and polyphenols. But like as an example of our commitment to transparency, we invest into third-party testing programs, including the product is NSF certified for sport. So every ingredient is tested before we can make the product. Our manufacturing process is routinely audited and our final products are all tested before we can release them to the public. And those tests are for over 300 different things plus verification that what's on the label is exactly what's in the product and nothing more. So I'm proud to like, to me, this is like a key mark of distinction. You have to pay for it because it's very expensive for the company to like, you can imagine, test every single batch. But we're very proud to have a product that's NSF certified for sport. We're also proud to be certified FODMAP friendly, which means that it's developed for people with sensitive guts. We're very proud to be certified glyphosate free because like these big things and this conversation about glyphosate emerges. Well, this was my concern in the first place. This is part of why I felt that I wanted to create a brand was so that I could slap a certified glyphosate free because I'm not seeing that out there on other fiber supplements. But also these products, they're formulated by me directly. Like I have a meeting in 10 minutes to formulate our next product. I'm not gonna discuss that anymore because it's about a year away, but we have a new product that's gonna be dropping in May. We have a new product that we're hoping to drop in June. We have another two products that'll be dropping later this year. The orientation is for gut health. And I guess the last thing that I'll say is that we also are invested into testing our products to prove them. So this product daily microbiome nutrition, we did a 15 day microbiome study. So again, this is a pre-biotic and here's what we showed. During the course of 15 days by day three, your short chain fatty acid levels have already jumped up. By day five, uremic acid, which is a marker of inflammation within the gut has actually plummeted. By day eight, your microbiome has changed. And by day 15, we have the emergence of acrimancia, which is like I could talk about acrimancia for an hour.

Will Bulsiewicz
It's like arguably the most important bacteria for a healthy microbiome. We have the emergence of acrimancia, significant increases in acrimancia, significant increases in bifidobacteria by day 15, plus inflammatory markers are plummeting, so anti-inflammatory.

So, and that's all coming from this 15 day microbiome study that we did. So the point being that like to me, leveling up was the idea of like creating the products that I personally as a gastroenterologist always wanted to see in the market, but also going an extra step of like testing those products, being transparent about that testing and continuing to follow through with research to prove that they are what we say they are.

Melanie Avalon
amazing. I just so, I just appreciate it so much. It's so important.

And you even said in the book, and it's something I've come to agree with as well, which is I used to live in an idealistic world in my head where I was like, oh, I'll just, if it's organic, that's what matters. And now I know that it's more about the testing of the actual product. So even if it's not technically quote organic, or that organic doesn't speak to all of this other testing that you can do from third parties and everything like that. So that's absolutely incredible. And the findings of that study is amazing. So congratulations. And also you are so kind, you have a discount code for listeners. So if listeners would like to get this, so the company is 38 Terra, the website is 38 terra.com, 38 terra.com. And you can use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off your order. Or if you subscribe, you can save up to 35% off your first subscription order. For the subscriptions, can people pause or cancel that subscription?

Will Bulsiewicz
pause or cancel literally any time. And also if it's not a fit for you, then as long as you let us know within 30 days, you get your money back.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, I always ask because I think people, I've experienced this with my stuff, people are hesitant to subscribe because it feels like a big commitment. If you can pause or cancel at any time, snag that discount. So thank you so much for that.

And the link is 38terra.com, 3-8-T-E-R-A.com. Go there now, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get 10% off your first order or 35% off your first subscription which you can pause or cancel at any time. So, oh my goodness. Okay, I think we got through like one tenths of all things.

Will Bulsiewicz
Oh, I'm so sorry.

Melanie Avalon
No, this is absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for your time and all that you're doing. I just cannot express enough my gratitude for what you're doing.

Like I said in the beginning, and I'll say it again now, just the science you bring, the encouragement, the support. I mean, clearly it's resonating with people because like I said, Multi-New York Times bestseller, congratulations. And the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I am so obsessed with the importance of mindset, which we didn't even really get into that, but there is a chapter, there might be multiple chapters. There's sections in the book on mental health, emotional health, the role of trauma in your gut health, the role of spiritual health, the role of awe. So definitely friends get the book to read all about that. So long way of saying, what is something that you're grateful for?

Will Bulsiewicz
Oh my goodness. First of all, thank you for having me on the show. I would just have to say, I'm grateful for my family. For me, the things that I do in this world, I wouldn't be able to do without their love and support. And there's times where it's challenging for all of us, and they make that sacrifice. And so to me, that's what I'm most grateful for.

Melanie Avalon
I love it so much. Well, thank you so much, Will. This was amazing. We'd love to have you back in the future.

Congratulations on everything, and enjoy. Have a good time at that meeting developing the next product. It's exciting.

Will Bulsiewicz
Thank you, Melanie. It's always fun to be on your show with you and I hope to see you in Charleston sometime. I hope you swing down this way.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes, I do plan to, so see you there. Thanks, bye.

Will Bulsiewicz
Thanks, Melanie. See ya.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line Avalon X.

Please visit melanieavalon.com to learn more about today's guests. And always feel free to contact me at contact at melanieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.