The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #358 - Charis Chambers

TRANSCRIPT

Charis Chambers
A lot of my work is increasing the awareness that we have things to help. And so you can bring it up because we have something that can give you relief.

That ownership of your body of being just yours and in being your own responsibility and thereby you having agency over your body, that does not reinforce so much. The shift is something that has to be combated on a personal level, on a community level, where parents and people who have power say, actually, we're going to do better than what the standard is according to this government leader or whatever.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Oh my goodness, friends, words cannot describe how much I genuinely enjoyed this conversation today with Dr. Charis Chambers. She is the chief medical officer of the Clue app and widely known as the period doctor on social media. I cannot recommend the Clue app enough when it comes to tracking and truly understanding your cycle to best empower you for your goals. And like we talk about in today's show, people have a lot of concerns about data privacy. One of the benefits of the Clue app is it is based in Berlin and is behind a paywall, meaning they do not sell your data. That said, you can get a year for free, which is so amazing. For that, just log into the Clue app and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. That will get you 12 months completely free. Or you can go to Melanie Avalon dot com slash Clue app and that will auto direct you to the login and apply the coupon code. We talk about so many incredible things in today's episode. Topics like the shame and embarrassment surrounding the menstrual cycle in our culture and why changing that starts with parents. We talk about myths when it comes to our periods, i.e., do girls actually sync up when they live together? We talk about what's normal when it comes to periods, including pain with periods, how ovulation can change throughout your life cycle, how your period relates to longevity, whether or not you should freeze your eggs, stigmas when it comes to birth control, which may be helpful for other things beyond birth control, and so much more. In particular, I really love the empowerment that Dr. Chambers is doing for so many women, especially of different socioeconomic statuses and races. And we have some really good conversations about the bias paradigms rampant in education when it comes to creating a healthy relationship with our menstrual cycles. And something I really, really loved, I love that we talk about whether or not you should be syncing to your cycle. I know I've had a lot of guests on the show who talk about the benefits of adjusting your diet, your lifestyle to the different phases of your cycle. But what if you don't want to do that? We talk about that. The show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon dot com slash Clue. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group. I have biohackers intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love.

Melanie Avalon
And then check out my Instagram. Find the Friday announcement post. And again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things.

As a brief reminder, you can get 12 months free of the Clue app. For that, just log into the Clue app and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. You can also go to Melanie Avalon dot com slash Clue app. And that will auto direct you to a link that will help you log in and apply that discount code. And now without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr. Charis Chambers. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is on a topic that we have talked quite a bit about on the show and that is women's reproductive health, sexual health, menstrual health, and all of the guests that I found the show to talk about this have usually been like authors and researchers. I have not had somebody involved specifically in the app world when it comes to this. So you guys might have heard of the Clue app. It's actually an app that helps you track your menstrual cycle for all the things, for your health and wellness, for fertility, whatever, however you want to optimize and supercharge your life with your menstrual cycle. That's where the Clue app comes in. So when the opportunity was presented to me to have Dr. Chambers on the show, Dr. Sharis Chambers, who was Clue's chief medical officer, I was an immediate yes. She is a board certified OB-GYN and a specialty certified pediatric and adolescent gynecologist. She's really big on social media. She's known as the period doctor. So you can find her on Instagram, TikTok, all the things. And I am just smiling even more because we are both living in Atlanta, Georgia, which is awesome. So we're neighbors. So we're gonna have to actually hang out sometime. I'm just saying that now. So I have so many questions, questions from you guys, questions from myself, but just to start things off, Dr. Sharis Chambers, thank you so much for being here.

Charis Chambers
here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm beyond excited to talk about this because it is my favorite topic as you probably have guessed.

Melanie Avalon
Which actually that is a fantastic place to start because I'm just okay just having flashbacks I was I'm very Atlanta now as you know but raised in the Bible Belt South and I don't so it's interesting because I grew up in this microcosm of like a Christian upbringing and So I don't know How different it would have been you know in like a non-religious setting but I at least know that in My world growing up there was always like this shame a little bit of shame and secrecy around like your menstrual cycle Which is I was when I was in the shower today getting ready for this I was like contemplating that like the entire shower like where did like it's so interesting that that that shame and secrecy Like it's still pervasive today You know, so yeah, I'm really curious your thoughts on that and like when it became your favorite thing

Charis Chambers
Absolutely, so it's funny because I've been in this work for so long that those topics and that very same thought process that you had in the shower, it comes up all the time. I can't believe that we are still whispering, can I have a pad?

Can I have a tampon? It is such a strange thing when you really think about the facts that over half the folks in this world have had or will have a period, that we are functional, that this is a normal thing. And we'll say, hey, I've got to go pee, and people say that all the time, or I've got to use the bathroom, whatever. But speaking about the natural function of a period is so shrouded in stigma, and so I also grew up in the South, I grew up in a Christian family, and that secrecy was not just something that was specific to my family or community, but it was certainly something that I saw in church, just how women's bodies were regarded and how we were taught to behave and carry ourselves so as to not bring any attention to our periods. Even when I got my very first period, and I actually talk about this in my book, my very first period, my mom talked to me about periods, and one of the rules that she kind of stated was no one should know when you're on your period. I was like, wow, what kind of secret society is this? That seems kind of nuts. How can I hide bleeding, but I'll do the best I can? That was just how we were raised.

Melanie Avalon
It's so, so fascinating. And actually, I was going and getting tampons literally this week. And I was being, I was aware of like, even when you like, still for me today, like when I walk in that tampon aisle, it's like, oh, you know, like that aisle, like don't let people see you going, which is so, so crazy.

So okay, so did you have, what was your experience with your cycle growing up? Did you have a quote, normal cycle? And I'm sure we need to like define what that even means. Thank you.

Charis Chambers
I remember my first cycle and I started at the normal age, I was 13, but I thought it was profoundly late because it just seemed like everyone had their periods already, which again speaks to how normal is conflated with abnormal depending on who you're around. So my very first period was during the summer, we were about to go swimming, and I loved swimming so much at that time. And so for my very first period, I used a tampon. And I didn't realize at the time how progressive my mother must have been to walk me through that, but it was totally fine, and there weren't a lot of taboos around that.

But the general guidance of how to care for myself, which was like, hey, never sleep in tampons. Make sure that you put all your stuff away in a trash bag and then wrap that in a special trash bag and put that in the trash in the garage so your dad and brother don't see it type of thoughts. That was my guidance. But I never really had trouble with my period. It was very straightforward, about five days or so, every 28 days or so. And so when we think about a normal cycle length, it's roughly seven days or less. We really don't want you to exceed seven days of heavier bleeding. And it typically occurs for our adolescents, we say every 21 to 45 days. But for adult women, we typically stay closer to like every 21 to 35-ish days. And so it was normal for me, but I watched my sisters not have particularly normal cycles. Like my older sister would say, you don't feel like you're gonna pass out in the shower when you're on your period? I was like, no, that sounds concerning. My younger sister would be like, man, you're not balled up in pain when you're on your period? I was like, no. And so I began to realize just in my home that periods have range, that my period is not everyone's period. That normal to abnormal type of story began to develop. I was like, hey, there's more here than what people let on.

Melanie Avalon
And how common, so like the experience with your siblings, you know, this like pain, and I know I'm getting all the memories. I remember when I was like going to Florida with one of my friends and she was, she couldn't even like leave, we couldn't even go out because she was in so much pain. And I was just, I didn't have that experience of the pain or anything like that.

How common is that where people are, you know, having really unpleasant symptoms with their menstrual cycle?

Charis Chambers
So period pain, which we also call dysmenorrhea, is something that's reported in up to 90% of people with periods. So there's some sort of discomfort that people are going to experience at some point with their period.

Severe pain, however, is something that's a little bit harder to quantify in the sense of it being more of a spectrum of sorts. But when we think about a category, for example, where it's typically characterized by severe pain, like endometriosis, that's going to be 1 in 10. And so you can expect about at least 10%, maybe up to a quarter of people, to have pain that at least requires meaningful treatment and meaningfully affects their day-to-day life.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

And do you think historically, like, do you think the issues with pain and things like that are a symptom of our modern lifestyle? Like, do you think hunter-gatherers, when they had periods, like how, like, how much do you think periods have changed from like hunter-gatherer days?

Charis Chambers
And I think that's such an interesting point because it's brought up on social media all the time. There's videos that say, you know, periods were never meant to hurt. I'm like, oh, how can you know that? But- Who are you there? Right.

There is the understanding of how things like stress and inflammation and endocrine disrupting chemicals and all these other things negatively affect our periods, how obesity and our diets have caused our periods to start earlier and the onset of puberty to begin earlier. And so it's natural to assume that maybe, yes, there would have been less inflammation and then a later onset of periods related to diet, the lower levels of obesity and all of those things. Not to suggest that our hunter-gatherer days or whatever were like peak health days. I think the life expectancy was like, you know, the third or fourth decade. And so it's like, do we want to model ourselves after that necessarily? But there is some consideration to shifting of periods as it relates to what we are doing in modern times, processed foods, obesity, varieties of other chronic conditions and how they affect our periods. But it's not enough where I could say that before this, you know, there was no such thing as period pain. I do think it's very likely that it was never acknowledged and that it wasn't acknowledged because there wasn't an opportunity to treat it. It's very silly to dwell on something when you don't believe it can be changed. And so when you think about how people were historically, they may have just thought that it was life. And so you don't complain necessarily about the things you don't change. You just adapt to them. Part of a lot of my work is increasing the awareness that we have things to help. And so you can bring it up because we have something that can give you relief.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha. Okay. I love that perspective so much.

So here's a question that's kind of the opposite of the hunter-gatherer question. It's something I think about this a lot. So I've had a lot of guests on the show, like Dr. Mindy Peltz and Jolene Brighton and a lot of people who talk about living your life according to your cycle. So like in the different phases, you know, how do you eat? How do you exercise? So here's my question coming from me. So I don't know what part of me it is that like feels this, but I guess I identify as like the strong, independent woman. I kind of feel like I'm like a man inside in some ways. And so for me, I'm like, I don't want to be, I don't want to have to adjust my life according to my cycle. And I'm haunted and torn by this idea of like, on the one hand, that seems super intuitive and like being in touch with your body and probably the most healthy thing. And what I quote should be, you know, wanting to feel and then how I actually feel, which is like, I don't want my cycle to even be a thing ever because

Charis Chambers
Exactly. And I love that you bring that up, honestly, Melanie, because the storylines around cycle syncing and what that looks like to change your diet and your workout and even how you plan your social life around your cycle assumes a variety of things. It assumes you have the power to change these things, right? It assumes that you're on no hormonal medication to meaningfully change your cycle so that you are having those rises and falls that are expected of each of the phases of the menstrual cycle. It assumes a lot of things that are not a reality for the modern woman like yourself or even myself who prefers to be able to plan my family how I want to.

And so I've got an IUD that actually prevents me from having regular bleeding, but I still can track my cycle and understand different nuances. I don't need that to be how I live my entire life. I don't need to check it every day and be like, okay, I'm mid luteal phase. This is what I can do today. For some people, that's really empowering. For other people, that's very daunting. It's like another thing on my list of things I have to do because of this body, because I have a uterus and ovaries. This is another thing I have to consider. And so I want to make sure that when we are talking about reproductive health opportunities and ways to approach reproductive health, we appropriately leave the range and duality and nuance that is required to consider all of the ways people navigate life. And a lot of these things as relates to like cycle sinking, they really come from a place of profound privilege, where you have the privilege of modifying your life and your exercise and your diet and all of those things, which would suggest access and resources that are not really all that accessible to many people globally. So I want to make sure we call it what it is. It's lovely, but for me to state it as a requirement for optimal health is a disservice to so many people who do not have the privilege that others do.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm just loving this conversation so much. This is incredible. Especially because I think, yeah, I haven't really had a nuanced conversation about it like this.

And I remember I was having a conversation offline with somebody who will not be named. I was expressing these same thoughts of what I just said about how, you know, I don't need my period and I just want to be independent. And then the person told me that that was like, that that's because I was ingrained in like the patriarchy. And I was like, I don't, I don't think it's the patriarchy. I think I just don't want, like, I don't like dealing with my menstrual cycle.

Charis Chambers
What's remarkable is that the patriarchy is actually one in which they tell you exactly what women can and should do and what men can and should do. And so it is actually a perpetuation of the patriarchy to tell someone like you who has a full thinking and well-rounded individual who's decided, I actually don't want this by virtue of my understanding of my life and to say, actually, you just don't know that you don't want it.

That is patriarchy.

Melanie Avalon
This is such a great conversation. Yeah, and I just remember I can feel the Visceral excitement feeling which this is a quick question as well But I remember because when I first got my cycle I started with pads and then I remember when I first Like actually got a tampon in because goodness knows that was really scary and difficult the first time which by the way Okay, another tangent.

I promise I'll come back to all these things You you mentioned a book and I'm like having a minor freakout because I always read the books Is this a book that's not out yet?

Charis Chambers
It's not out yet. I'm so sorry. And I was like, I shouldn't have even said that, but yes. It's not out yet.

Melanie Avalon
out yet. When does it come out? No, I'm just like obsessive with like reading the people's books. So I will read it and hopefully we can like have you back on. When does it come out?

Charis Chambers
It comes out May 19th, and it's called the Period and Puberty Parenting Revolution, and I just love alliteration probably too much. But the idea is that we are in a very interesting time in which reproductive health education is not being championed like it should be. It's actually kind of regressing, and there's a very intentional change on what reproductive health access looks like, and the narratives that are leading these conversations are not grounded in science or evidence. And I genuinely believe the earlier we educate folks who are going to be navigating life with periods, the better we are for future generations, and the first educators of those people tend to be parents.

And while the book is a parenting book, it is for anyone who meaningfully impacts or influences people with periods to change the way we consider things, to unlearn stigma and shame, and to approach these topics with a confidence and clarity that comes from medical accuracy that's partnered with compassion. I talk about tampons, I talk about period products, I talk about all of these things that I've always wanted to talk about with all of my patients but never had enough time because there is so much nuance in this space, and there's so much guilt, and there's so much of what you should be doing or shouldn't be doing, but I don't want to tell parents what values to have. I want to give them the tools to raise their kids and to rear them with values that their kids can carry as unique and free-thinking people. And so it's a very cool thing that I'm very excited about, but I did talk about my first period in my book, and so the process of writing that book had me reliving the moment of my first period and everything that came with it. So that's where my mind went when you asked me.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. No, this is incredible. And yeah, I'm going back to all my moments of my first, which I actually, I don't even know if I remember like the very, very first period, but I do remember the first time transitioning to the tampons, like I was saying, and a few things. One, how overwhelmingly awkward and embarrassed I was getting my mom to help me like get a tampon in. Like still, I'm like, I like shudder with like that memory, which shouldn't be that way.

So I'm so happy that you're like, I don't like the word should, but I would like it not to be that way. And I'm happy that you're writing this book because I think that's just so, so, so, so incredible because my memory is my mom being like, and I love my mom. So this is like, no, nothing negative about her, but it's just society. I remember her being like, you can't, she's like, she came to me and she was like, we can have a talk or you can read a book or you can watch a movie. And I was like, I want to read a book. So she like gave me a book and then I didn't really like talk to her about it. You know? So this is great that you're opening that dialogue and educating. So last thing I'll say is interestingly, putting a tampon in for the first time was very painful. And, and at the same time, so freeing. That was the moment I was like, Oh, I don't have to like be dealing with pads all the time and everything. That's when I think I first felt the idea of like feeling free from my period. I actually though still like even putting in a tampon now still is like painful for me actually. And I don't know if that's, but I've just said to myself, that's normal. So I'm wondering, I'm wondering how common it is for people to just like write off things as normal, like we were talking about.

Charis Chambers
too common so to your point about like tampon insertion one one of my most popular videos I mean it has millions of views on YouTube is a like minute and 30 second tampon insertion tutorial video using a vulva puppet that I purchased from Etsy that is like anatomically correct and I freaking love it and so many people comment on a daily basis and this is like a few years old thank you so much I got one in oh my gosh like and if the notes are just beautiful I also got a message from a mom on Instagram that said hey I've got you know a pre-teen dancer who really wants to wear a tampon because the pads are too bulky for her uniform but I was never taught to wear a tampon I'm 40 and I don't know how to wear a tampon and my child is asking me can you help me and so I sent her my video and she's like oh my goodness this was so helpful so there there is you should have been proud of yourself for figuring that out because there's people today who have had babies who still don't know how to insert a tampon which is mind-blowing it is mind-blowing how we normalize this lack of agency around our bodies which is a byproduct of the patriarchy because it's suggesting we have been taught that our bodies aren't really ours to begin with and so we don't feel the need to have that ownership and understanding of it to manage it that way you know we belong to our parents at that at one point and then we're handed off to our husbands and you know so that ownership of your body of being just yours and in being your own responsibility and thereby you having agency over your body that is not reinforced so much especially in certain you know settings settings and communities I find tampon use very empowering but many communities mislabel it as inappropriate or I've had I had someone who was like 26 before she used a tampon because her grandmother said that tampons were in quote for whores that tampon a period product that is meant to help you manage your period can be equated to some sexual promiscuity and flawed character like what that is it's so it's so ingrained but anyway that was quite the tangent but no in theory tampon insertion should not be painful in my practice when there is someone says man I'm really having trouble inserting a tampon or can't get one in or it's really painful what I typically do is an exam looking at their bottom to just make sure that there isn't some extra tissue around the hymenal opening that's one of the most common causes of it the other common cause is that we just haven't quite mastered the angle of insertion and sometimes there's difficulty as it relates to the way the applicator is shaped you know some people insert tampons with cardboard applicators and those have much rougher edges and so there's a lot of modification that can be done to improve tampon insertion experience but yes most of the time when someone says they they have some pain with tampon insertion like hey let's just make sure everything is okay down there

Melanie Avalon
It's interesting because logically, because like I said, every time I put one in and I don't have like a heavy flow, so it'll be, it'll be light. It'll be like a small tampon, but I will still get pain from it.

Even though I have literally done like, you know, the dilated exercises that you order, you like work your way up. I have done dilator. So I'm like, I know that I can like get up to this size, but why is a small little tampon still?

Charis Chambers
There's so many reasons, there can be structural reasons, and then there's just nerve issues that can happen depending on lived experiences, prior injuries. For a lot of folks that have kind of that type of pain, especially for like a light or regular tampon, what we also recommend is like pelvic floor physical therapy.

And I don't think enough people know about that, but it's not just for postpartum. It's for anyone who have pelvic muscles that might be a little tight or might have some sort of memory of any type of event that makes them kind of over respond or over tighten or have an exaggerated pain response to things that possibly would not cause that amount of pain.

Melanie Avalon
in a typical setting. I definitely need to look into this.

And actually that sparked a memory because I actually, so I do M-sculpt, which is like muscle stimulation for your muscles. And the place I went, they actually had, it wasn't M-sculpt, but it was a similar contraction machine for the muscles, for like your pelvic muscles, I think, do you know what I'm talking about? You like sit on it. I'm just curious if you like it or not. It was like such an, it was, I only tried it once, but I was like, this is interesting.

Charis Chambers
I haven't done it personally. And from what I understand, it's not, it's not a for everyone type of thing.

In certain cases, without adequate evaluation, like a thorough evaluation, these things, even things as simple as like Kegel exercises. So right, tightening that pelvic floor can worsen some pelvic floor dysfunction depending on the type. And so I do recommend that people get, you know, adequate evaluation by a qualified healthcare provider to make sure that some of these, you know, fun, innovative things are not actually worsening underlying conditions depending on their history and their needs. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
awesome. So I just have to ask, and I'm sure I'll learn all about this when I read your book, but you said the education is actually regressing now, like in society. And so why and how? So

Charis Chambers
So it's more so the push behind education. There's been a lot of policies to actually limit education due to a desire to control narratives around gender and sexuality, depending on age. And so in states like Texas or even Florida, there have been changes to sexual education laws for public schools saying, hey, we're actually not going to talk about that until sixth grade. Well, most people actually start their periods around 11 or 12. And by sixth grade, you enter at the age of 12, you leave around 13 roughly, you're going to be missing quite a bit of people. And those people tend to be black and brown. And so to just decide arbitrarily that this is the age that's worthy of discussion and that this group of people doesn't get to talk about it, like they just don't get any guidance until they're in it, it's really unfair and inappropriate.

And almost all of our comprehensive sex education guidance and research tells us that the earlier we talk about it the better, you just need to make it age appropriate. But if there's some sort of agenda that says, actually, we want to make sure that we are promoting only like a heteronormative view of things, then the more we talk about gender differences and periods and even those things, there's an opportunity for conversations and questions and appropriate critical thinking that would challenge that narrative. And so there have been policies put in place to make that actually illegal, to mention certain words in classrooms. Where sex had used to be. And so that's a real problem. The shift is something that has to be combated on a personal level, on a community level, where parents and people who have power or influence on folks with periods say, actually, we're going to do better than what the standard is according to this government leader or whatever.

Melanie Avalon
wow okay that's fascinating and this is a very like specific question but i'm just curious so i'm again having this like the the conversation of flashbacks i guess what do they call it i guess hell what do they call it

Charis Chambers
Health class, sex ed, there were so many things.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I guess we first had it in fifth grade at my school.

Mine was seventh. Seventh grade. Oh, wow. Yeah. We first had like, they would separate us and yeah, I have a memory in fifth grade and we would, there was some sort of like talk situation. I don't think it was a class, but it wasn't like an ongoing class, but there was definitely like a talking that happened. And then in middle school, yeah, health class was actually, we didn't have health costs until high school. Right.

Charis Chambers
I had actual health in high school that was kind of a joke, but also that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we didn't have health class and that's when that's when I learned. Are you ready? Do you want to know what I learned?

That's when I learned that condoms do not protect you from STDs. So don't use condoms because basically the Literally, that's what they told us because the messaging was they didn't want us having sex because it was a religious school. So They literally told us condoms don't like protect you. And so I just remember like thinking that doesn't make much sense So the sperm can't get through but the STDs

Charis Chambers
You know? That's the problem when information is filtered through bias, right? It's always going to be flawed because there's always going to be this ulterior motive. And that's one of the things that creates the greatest issues in sexual health, especially for young people.

Abstinence only, sex ed, is profoundly ineffective. And there's, I mean, just a laundry list of research articles that prove that. It actually has a greater risk of teen pregnancy than comprehensive sex education because it's not good enough to say, don't have sex. Like it's just, it's just not good enough. It's not realistic. 50% of graduating seniors have had sex. Saying that isn't enough. You need to tell people what to do when they're in these situations. What does consent look like? How do I model it? What is safe? And so saying that the condoms do not protect against STDs is obviously profoundly incorrect. It is not 100% protective against STDs because nothing is other than abstinence. And that's a true statement, but we have to deal in reality, not in ideology.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, it's so true. All of this aside, I really love my upbringing. I'm so grateful for everything and where I am.

So this is just one, if I ever were to have children, this is one of the things I would change is how I... That's what I've said. Honestly, one of the few things I would change is how I would talk to my kids about sexual health and wellness. It's very passionate about this. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. You're health class that we both had. I'm presuming yours, my mind was separated by male and female. I would assume that in the dream world, there's zero shame about any of this and we can just talk about it and there's not this whole stigma.

In the meantime, we're not there now. So is it beneficial with these classes that they're still separated by biological male and female or should they be co-ed?

Charis Chambers
I think it's a problem because in the world that we are living in, the people that are experiencing periods are experiencing it in a co-ed world. And so it's not really protecting anyone necessarily by separating them. I do think that there is probably greater comfort in more intimate discussions in a group of people that experience periods. But to just educate on what periods are, that education needs to be across the board. That needs to be something that is given to folks regardless of whether they bleed or not.

Because these people need to know how to treat people who bleed. They need to know to not make fun of the girl who has a period stain on her pants because she can't control that. And so help her instead of making fun. And so the education is necessary. One-on-one guidance, that absolutely needs to be happening more privately. But to educate a group does not require separation. Moreover, there is a lot of gender fluidity in our younger ages where if you were to say girls and boys over here, there's someone that's like, well, I don't really fit in either. And we're not going to check their chromosomes. We are not going to check their internal anatomy or their genitalia because that's wildly inappropriate and traumatizing. And gender in and of itself is so, so complex. I was watching a video of a young woman who was telling the story of how she realized she was born without a vagina. It was just a very interesting story, but she had something called androgen insensitivity syndrome. And it is something where a baby is born with XY chromosomes, but their body is not able to process testosterone. And so they cannot form the phallic structures of the male genitalia, and so they essentially form as female. And so they live phenotypically as female, and that's just what their body does, but they have XY chromosomes. And this is not a new discovery. There are many people who live with this in this world, but where does that person go? You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh, we're doing this based on, like, what do you mean? And so instead of having someone to declare their allegiance to this black and white land of gender that actually is self-inflicted and not even real, maybe just talk to everyone about periods, because we live in a world where periods are everywhere and people are managing periods everywhere we go. And if we are not the ones having them, we need to at least know how to be decent people who can support them.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, amazing. And that's that's really, really fascinating.

Okay, so when did you start working for Clue? So I started in September. Okay, so recent, sort of recently. Congrats. So probably right when we connected then.

Charis Chambers
Yeah, but in 2016, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists rated Clue as the best period tracking app and I was in residency at that time. I was in my training and from 2014 to 2018, I remember being like, hmm, let me read about this Clue app and I loved everything they were doing. I loved how they were focused on privacy and education and empowerment and body literacy and all those things. So I've always, in my heart of hearts, had this like superlative for Clue that I never shared in like this internal hierarchy of mental tracking apps where I was like, Clue is like the gold standard.

So when this opportunity came about, I was just blown away. I was like, this aligns so perfectly with like my whole personality that I cannot pass this up. Like, please, please let this, you know, happen and so it has been a joy. It's always a joy to work in your lane of talents and passions, but it is especially a joy to work in an organization where that integrity and that mission is so clear and so consistent across all levels of leadership and the passion is just felt. You can tell that people aren't there just for the purpose of having a job. It's because they get to do really, really cool work and that's my favorite part.

Melanie Avalon
This is so amazing. So to that point, who should be tracking their cycle and how early should we start?

Charis Chambers
Man, this is such a great question because I get to see the earliest people with their periods right like people come to me because they Like they started their period last month and one of the first things I talked to them about is tracking their cycle So for too long We have told people with periods that their desire to know about their bodies must be because they have some other goal Oftentimes to conceive and it has been normalized for women to only be Informed about their bodies if their purpose is to have a child because that's when society can't agree that that's a worthwhile Endeavor I think that people with periods of all ages regardless of what their desire is for future fertility Deserve to understand their bodies and manage their life in a way that supports their dreams and not have a period that limits that So whatever as you mentioned, you're like some days. I just I'd rather not be a part of it Oh, I don't want a cycle thing.

You know, I think that everyone should be able to live that way So to answer your question Everyone should be tracking their cycle Everyone should be tracking it as soon as you start to believe you should be tracking it because it is giving you inside an information And as a doctor as someone who cares for these people It is one of the first things I ask if they come to me and say my periods are irregular Irregular doesn't mean a lot without the data. I say well, what does that mean? Does that mean you believe for too long? Does that mean you bleed too often? Does that mean you bleed too heavily? What does that mean? And so the better you can describe it the better I can help you and the better you can identify when you need help So anyone who has a period anyone who has a cycle as in functioning ovaries in my opinion should be tracking that cycle if not for the purposes of optimizing their daily life and cycle sinking for the purposes of managing and understanding and

Melanie Avalon
for their health. Okay this is so exciting because so like I said I asked for some listener questions and we got some questions from Amy and she had two and I'm actually gonna start with her second one because it's a kind of already answered. She said is anyone advocating for more comprehensive education on the benefits of cycle tracking for young teens? I believe that teaching young people about this could eliminate some of the mystery surrounding womanhood.

So yes there is. That would be her guest today.

Charis Chambers
Yes, and Clue. As an organization, we're actually doing, planning something really, really interesting for Q2 around menstrual education, especially for this group, just because it is a global imperative at this point to educate the youngest folks.

And what I actually just say often is when we educate our youngest menstruators, our teens, to better understand their bodies, they'll better understand their bodies in their 30s. They'll better understand their bodies when they are trying to conceive. They may better understand pregnancy and postpartum and the hormonal changes and body changes that occur there because they've been given the permission and agency and resources to understand their bodies from the very beginning. So it starts to model how you navigate your reproductive life and the changes that are happening physiologically as you age and as you mature. And I think that modeling needs to happen as young as possible.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is so great. And so her first question was, and you don't have to necessarily speak directly to what she mentions, but she says, how does the Clue app differ from the Natural Cycles app? Wondering if it would be worth it to switch.

So maybe just in general, how does Clue differentiate itself? Like you mentioned the award it got, how does it differentiate from other cycle tracking apps?

Charis Chambers
Yeah. So one of my favorite things about Clue is that it is women-led. So women-led to me matters. I think it says a lot about the origin story and just some of the ways in which leadership is valued and the people are valued who hold these leadership roles.

The data privacy of Clue far exceeds a lot of the standards of some of the other apps. That data privacy lends itself to how user information is used and processed and what it looks like to share that information for financial gain, which is what a lot of other apps may do and why they are free and free in like air quotes because you pay with your information. And a lot of people don't realize that, especially in this current time of a fear of increased fertility information surveillance. It is really important to have data privacy and protection that's real. And so because Clue is based in Berlin, it is not subjected to like US subpoenas and things of that nature. And so you can be assured that your data is actually secure. And that is not something that is new. It is not something that just came to the forefront after the overturning of Roe. It was something that was a part of the integral like foundation of Clue because that was always a value.

Also Clue is science backed. And what science backed really means is that there isn't a desire to sensationalize things. It is a desire to educate the users. And so that education comes from scientists. It comes from research articles. It comes from actual research studies and Clue allows you to opt in to use your de-identified data to actually fill the research gap. And that might be my favorite part and I even might. It is my favorite part because there's such a major research gap as relates to menstruation and what menstruation looks like in a variety of communities that haven't been historically valued as one's worth studying or worth tracking.

But Clue because it is a global app that can be used by anyone is really making ways to fill that research gap. The other thing is just product excellence and a very simple interface. Like simplicity is key. And I use Clue. I love it's like, hey girl, you want to track something? I'm like, sure. And it doesn't feel crazy. It doesn't feel inappropriate. And you get to pick exactly what profile you want. So for example, Clue has a non-bleeding tracking profile, which I use because my IUD prevents me from having a period, which is celebrated, which I love. But I'm able to still track how my feelings are and how my ovaries are affecting me. Just because I don't have bleeding doesn't mean I'm not having a cycle. I am. And I still want to track that information. I'm not trying to conceive. And so my app isn't going to say, the Clue app isn't going to say, hey, you're ovulating. Don't have sex. Like some of the apps that kind of assume the conception is the goal. And then there's just a very ethical brand stance as it relates to, again, data privacy, but also just showing up for marginalized folks and for people that have been forgotten in the reproductive health space.

So I think Clue is unlike any other app, but those are some of the examples of why they are different.

Melanie Avalon
I love that you led with the data privacy part because I actually got a lot of questions about that. Like Maris said, what are they doing with our data? Karen said, and this was interesting, she said there are concerns of governments using app information to quote check if someone had a pregnancy that did not result in a live baby and prosecute for them. One suggested tactic that people are doing to fight this is to try to add enough fake info into the apps, like from men using them to try and distract them and make it harder. I'm not sure if that would actually work though.

I do think it's hard for USA based apps to deny sharing data with government. So you just clarified that Clue is not based in the US. You said Berlin.

Charis Chambers
And they're protected by the EU. It's like GDPR standard of data privacy, which is much higher than even the standards in the US.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, do you know if just clue experience that where people are like make doing fake data to try to so I?

Charis Chambers
I think Clue doesn't experience that as much, possibly because you have to pay for Clue. There's a subscription rate. That means that no one's just going to log on for free and do reckless things.

I think that one holds a greater standard, and some people are like, well, why do I have to pay to use Clue? Because they're not selling your data to the highest bidder, which is why you can pay a very nominal annual fee to have high quality product, to have a really high quality product.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, this is great. Okay. I feel so good about this conversation.

And on the science piece, so I was thinking about this actually this week because on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, my other show, we always open by discussing a recent like clinical article in like a journal or something like that. And sometimes we will look at the actual article and then we'll look at how it's portrayed in the news. And it's wild like, well, hey, it's wild what headlines like you can pull positive or negative headlines from any study really. And even the abstract, oftentimes the abstract, for in my opinion, doesn't even properly capture like the abstract is where I feel like bias can come in and they can kind of like highlight what they want to highlight from the findings. I'm curious, because you're talking about how this is very science backed and all the things, how does Clue approach interpreting the science like as objectively as possible? Is there a filter of paradigm that they're approaching science from? Like how do they interpret the science?

Charis Chambers
So I think the science department at Clue and I work closely with them, they have the highest standards for what is put out for our users, what is published, what we stand behind and what we don't. And what that looks like is people that are used to interpreting science articles and those who don't get swayed by sensationalized headlines in our more like, you know, general publications. So there's multiple reviews of even press releases and publications from the science team, from myself. And so there's many eyes that are not just looking to see if this kind of tracks or pushes out the storyline or headline that is most beneficial to us, but one that is actually scientifically accurate.

And so that standard is something that I mean, obviously we just learn when you are being taught how to review research articles, like what does this actually mean? But what is the clinical significance? What does this mean for actual users? Is this a moderate increase? One of my favorite books that I have read, it's like my favorite, was once it's called Like How to Lie with Statistics.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that sounds interesting. I like that.

Charis Chambers
It's super, super old, it's a book, and obviously it's written kind of facetiously. But the idea is that you must be critical of any statistic that is ever presented to you.

You can say, oh, you're twice as likely to die if you walk over here. Is that risk 0.1% and then it goes to 0.2? Is that significant? What does that actually mean? And so as we, especially as a physician who is constantly taking statistics and translating that to patients who do not have that clinical background, being able to do so appropriately and ethically and accurately is what I live to do. So having multiple people that have accountability that isn't just to an agency or just to a company, but to their own ethical standards as scientists and people that live by that and don't find that as a burden, but as a joy, that's how you can have a higher science standard for what you're pushing out to your ears.

Melanie Avalon
So actually, speaking of statistics, and I love that title of that book, I'm curious, has there been, do you know if Clue has found with all of the data collection that it has done things that don't match the common statistics, like what we commonly think, just as far as like, like, have there been any epiphanies that they've had from the data that were unexpected or surprising based on all the user data?

Charis Chambers
Not exceptionally, but one of my favorite findings that was from a Clue study was one that just showed that cycle syncing just isn't a thing, as in syncing with your friends like your bestie or like your room. And of course, people, they push back on that all the time, but it was one that you can actually easily do because the app is tracking it, right? So because of all the data in the app, I mean, they had millions of cycles that they could track and there was no sign or any meaningful support of syncing. And of course, that's one of all the myths that exist around like periods, it's like one of the most benign, so it's not one that I go toe to toe with. You know, I'm like, okay, if that's what you want to believe, that's fine.

But it was super interesting because Clue had so much data, they could actually show it and say, hey, this isn't a thing. So that's one of the things that's been like a larger study that was done, but nothing that has been profoundly like paradigm shifting as relates to what's been found. What I do think because Clue tracks such granular data, you can look at different patterns and things, but a lot of the insights that are most profound are going to be on the individual basis. It's going to be on an individual's ability to notice patterns in themselves because there's so much information that's being tracked. But Clue is doing some interesting studies. There's a study that they're working with related to type 1 diabetes and how insulin sensitivity changes throughout the cycle. That's not something that's new because there's science that shows that insulin sensitivity actually decreases in the luteal phase. I had a patient with type 1 diabetes and I was just talking to him like, hey, girl, we've got periods now and there's going to be some changes. Have you noticed difficulty managing your blood sugars during any time? She was like, right before my period starts. She's like, you little smarty, yes. There's science that shows that you are less sensitive to insulin during that time, so you have to increase that. And I'm sorry, but that's just what it looks like now that you're having periods. And so it's interesting to see these things, but we can get greater insights to build upon the knowledge that we already have. So it's more of bringing that knowledge further or taking it further and filling in gaps as opposed to laying entire new groundwork on menstrual health.

Melanie Avalon
Are they, I'm wondering, okay, so a topic I would really want to research, especially with this being the biohacking podcast, well, a few different things. I'd have to like formulate my thesis here, but a fascinating fact that I think a lot of people don't know is that I believe the ovaries age the fastest of every, any organ in our body.

Charis Chambers
have you heard that i would say so in a sense that would make sense if you define aging by like actual function and when that function

Melanie Avalon
I've interviewed a few different people, two people, who have talked about the role of ovaries in studying the ovaries in the science of longevity because of how they age. I'm really curious, are they looking at all on cycles and longevity in people?

Charis Chambers
I don't know if there's something specific that is being targeted as relates to longevity, so to speak, because longevity is kind of one of those blanket terms that means like a lot of things, obviously length of life, right? But quality of life.

And so that would be some markers and subjectivity that I don't know that they're tracking, but there's a lot of information that's being tracked as relates to like perimenopause with an idea that once people head into menopause, cycle tracking tends to fall off. So I don't know if there's any work to keep those folks who are beyond the time of having more regular cycles or entered into menopause on the app for the purpose of longevity information. I do think it would be a disservice to stop gathering information once the person has gone that full year without a period is truly menopausal because that wouldn't tell us enough about longevity. I hope that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon
No, it does. It totally does.

And yeah, one of the questions I ask a lot of people on this show actually, and it's because for a few different reasons. One, I'm fascinated by longevity. Two, I don't personally think I want to have kids. So three, I'm really curious the correlation between having kids and longevity, because I just think about it in a kind of esoteric way. But I think if from an evolutionary perspective, our bodies are set up for reproduction. So everything is to reproduce. Then by not having kids, does your body prolong things? Because it's waiting for you to have kids still. I would love to see more studies on the science of having kids and longevity. And then there's a whole role of actually having the kids and how that affects things.

Charis Chambers
I mean, yeah, so they're just generally speaking, most studies show that people who have children do live longer. I think it's like some not so long amount, like one or two years, like six months to 12 months, something like that.

And it's unclear as to why exactly it's possible that maybe the kids harass them about health or I don't know, or that maybe having kids is a certain marker of healthiness and even mothers who have kids older live longer.

Melanie Avalon
Like, if you can't have it older, then it makes sense that your body is on that track of living longer.

Charis Chambers
Yeah, those are some of the things I understand. The difficulty of longevity and life length and those sorts of things is because, this sounds very morbid, but the clue relies on what the user tracks.

No one's tracking their death.

Melanie Avalon
Right, exactly. I was literally thinking that when I was asking the question. I was like...

Charis Chambers
It's like, oh, I can't log to this month. I actually departed.

I do think longevity is something that is really, really important and super valuable to discuss as it relates to a variety of populations, but I do think it's important to bring up the disparities as relates to health and life expectancy at baseline. There was a study that came out in JAMA recently that talked about how race and racism obviously affects mortality and how Black and Brown people, especially Black people in the United States, have much shorter life expectancy that correlates to levels of inflammation. When I think about longevity, especially as a Black woman, it's something that causes me a little bit of pain because when I think about the people in my family, longevity is like the other side of our goal. We just want to live the regular life expectancy. So longevity on that side of quality and on all of those things, that's a beautiful marker, but we're trying to get to the standard benchmark.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, that comes up in a majority of the books I read on health and wellness is like the socioeconomic status and race and everything and how it, you know, just the major influence it has on health conditions and it's a really, really big problem.

So I was going to say, okay, so people who are using, and again, I just so appreciate your perspective here and empowering people to view their cycle the way it best benefits their life and using the app for their goals. And I love what you were saying about how, you know, some apps just assume like, oh, it assumes that you want to get pregnant by tracking. That's like, that's like what we're just assuming you're here for. Yeah. To that point, I am super, super curious. So regardless of somebody's goal, so if they want to get pregnant, maybe they don't want to get pregnant. Either way, getting pregnant or not getting pregnant, it is important to know when you're ovulating. So how effective is using tracking and with an app, like using the tracking with Clue, using that as your main tool for timing of getting pregnant or not getting pregnant?

Charis Chambers
So Clue is specifically not meant to be like a birth control option, right? So I think natural cycles, that's the one you mentioned, there are apps out there that are intended to be used as a form of birth control and have FDA approval as that, and Clue is not one of those.

Now there is Clue Conceive Mode, which is the clinically validated algorithm, and its efficacy has been demonstrated in clinical research studies. The efficacy of it outside of clinical research studies is, again, harder to glean because most people don't go back to their period app and say, I got pregnant, they just stopped tracking. And so it's certainly variable, it varies depending on the age of the tracker, which group you're looking at, how intentional someone is tracking. So I can't give you direct, I guess, percentages or numbers related to that, but just for your purposes. In general, in a general sense, when we're looking at birth control on a graph, so to speak, and we're labeling like the ones that are the most effective and the least effective, the tracking of your cycles is always going to be in the least effective category, along with like the pullout methods, pharmacides, and male and female condoms. So yeah, so it's always going to be like, I would say 70% to 80% is...

Melanie Avalon
I didn't, I actually didn't know that there were apps that were approved, like FDA approved as birth control. I did not realize that.

And then, so here's a question from Teresa. She wants, and you mentioned, you mentioned earlier, like the different life phases. She said, what is it like when you were in perimenopause? She says my oaring in perimenopause will sometimes give me minor symptoms and my temperature will be up slightly. Is ovulation moving later? I read we have frequent cycles without ovulation. What does that look like? And how can we even tell how does ovulation change from age 40 to 50? So ovulation changing throughout like our life cycles. Does it?

Charis Chambers
move around? Absolutely. So ovulation and even cycle length can start to change as early as in your 30s because our peak time of fertility is technically around 27, which is so disturbing when you think about it. But it's just the exponential drop off in the amount of eggs that we produce and then the aging of the ovaries that starts to manifest as early as in our 30s.

Perimenopause is a time that obviously precedes menopause and it can be up to 10 years of time. And so the early phases of perimenopause, we typically see that you're missing like one to two periods in a year. And then in later perimenopause, that can be like five to six periods in a year. And so when you're missing these periods, that's typically meaning that there's going to be an ovulation or you're not actually ovulating regularly. When ovulation occurs, so when your ovary releases an egg, you have two outcomes. It is pregnancy or a period. There is no in between. And so when we go without a period for a prolonged period of time, not to use that word unnecessarily, and you are not pregnant, that typically signals that ovulation did not occur. And that's just because of the way our hormones respond. Once an egg is released, progesterone increases, then it decreases and that is what triggers the lining to shed. And so if that increase and decrease doesn't happen, it's typically because ovulation didn't happen. And so yes, it can be very challenging to track ovulation as you get into your perimenopausal time period. And certainly as you get into your fifties, that ovulation is going to be even more erratic and difficult to track. How the other? There is research that shows that someone spontaneously conceived in the literature at the age of 56. So if you are still having a period, if you have not gone a full 12 months without a period, then you really need to consider that you're still able to have a pregnancy. And so some sort of contraceptive practice or method needs to be in place. So while we can't necessarily identify exactly when ovulation occurs, there's tests that can be done, especially in research settings. There's typically like a progesterone test that would show that the progesterone increased to a certain amount, which is good enough to signal the ovulation occurred, but no one's going to do that on a regular basis just for funsies. And certainly a period tracking app is not sufficient, but yes, we expect changes to ovulation. And that is most often manifested in like a tangible and physical way by the periods becoming less frequent.

Melanie Avalon
Speaking of ovulation, so now I'm just thinking about all of it. I'm really interested in freezing your eggs and things like that.

And something I think about with that is, would a person's cycle at all be an indicator of their egg quality? Is there a connection between the eggs that you're producing and then how your cycle manifests?

Charis Chambers
So in theory, yes, I mean, in theory. So if you are not having a regular monthly cycle, one would expect that you are not going to be ovulating regularly, and so those eggs are not as accessible or they're not available or as accessible for conception. But the actual quality of the eggs, like how good those eggs are, that is not reliably correlated to the characteristics of your period itself.

Okay. Gotcha. So I froze my eggs. Oh, you did? Okay. Yes. When I was 34, I froze them. Just because I told myself in residency that if I was 34 and wasn't married, I would freeze my eggs. At that time when I started the egg freezing process, or when I decided to start it, I wasn't engaged. I got engaged in January and started the egg freezing in February. I was like, well, I said I was going to do it, so I'm still going to do it. It was very straightforward. I really enjoyed the process and I just felt really empowered to be able to freeze my eggs. I love that science allows for that and it just made me feel less stressed. I felt less stressed with my husband, like, hey, we don't have to enter our marriage with this weird clock behind us telling us when to start our family, and I felt really empowered.

Melanie Avalon
making that decision. Oh, that's amazing. I love that. Yeah, I'm very intrigued by it. And I'm around the time that I probably would be doing it. So yeah.

OK, so, so interesting. OK, so you mentioned earlier we were talking about surprising findings, and you were talking about the cycle-sinking myth with your friends. What are some of the other myths that you see very commonly that make you cringe, especially with social media? Yeah.

Charis Chambers
Oh my gosh, there's so many. I think the ones that are so cringy now are related to all of the weird concoctions and recipes that people say will stop your period or

Melanie Avalon
shorten it. Okay, I haven't seen that. Clearly my algorithm is not set up for this.

Charis Chambers
your algorithm is protected. Now, you know what? People tag me in them. They're like the period doctor, what do you think? And so then I get to see all of them. So I remember a few summers ago, it was like jello and lemonade or lime juice or something and salt. This one that I saw more recently was cayenne pepper and cinnamon. And it's just like people were just making things up.

But when patients come in and ask me about those, I say, well, let's talk about it. Let's talk about physiology. These are the signals that your body uses to tell you when you're going to have a period. And you tell me, how does cayenne pepper change the signaling? No, no, go. Can you think of anywhere? I'm like, no, I can't. What about jello? They're like, I can't. So those are difficult. I think the other ones that are really harmful, like the more harmful myths and misconceptions out there are around hormonal therapy, which is what I tend to call birth control, especially when I'm using it for non contraceptive reasons, which are many. So for my youngest patients, the youngest patients I personally diagnosed with endometriosis was 12. And endometriosis, yeah, is managed primarily by hormonal therapy. And that's because endometriosis worsens when there's fluctuations of your hormones that are like your unaltered normal hormonal fluctuations for someone with endometriosis causes this chronic disease to progress and worsen. So we manage that by applying hormonal therapy or administering hormonal therapy that minimizes those fluctuations. But because social media said that birth control causes infertility, I may have a patient with endometriosis who says, I actually don't want to treat it with what you have because I'm worried about infertility. All the while endometriosis causes infertility, especially if it's untreated. And that's not theoretical. That's not pretend. That's real. And so it's really challenging when the misconceptions are so pervasive that the patients who need things the most cannot feel empowered to utilize those things because the noise of misconceptions are so loud.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And so when you're saying hormone replacement therapy, birth control, is it birth control or is it estrogen, progesterone? Yeah.

Charis Chambers
So hormone therapy, hormone replacement therapy.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, sorry. Okay, that's probably my bad.

Charis Chambers
That's okay. So I call it hormone therapy because we're using hormonal methods to improve or treat their symptoms and conditions.

It is the same or it falls within the category of hormonal contraception. Some of them do. Some of them do not.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, gotcha. Again, flashbacks. I'm thinking about how I actually was on birth control irony aside of being in a religious upbringing school, but I had to go on birth control to get Accutane in high school. And it was a whole, it was like a dramatic thing for me because I was so excited to get the Accutane and you had to go through this whole like program and like be on birth control for a little bit and then like take these quizzes.

And, and then my dermatologist, the initial dermatologist who was prescribing it, I had to be on birth control for like a month or something. And then I came in, she was like, Oh, I think the birth controls working enough. So we're just going to keep on birth control and I won't prescribe Accutane. And I was like crying and but, but it did help, I assume it did. I just look back and like I've interviewed like Abby Epstein and Ricky Lake for their documentary, the business of birth control, like they have quite a few business of like movies and documentaries and books. But I'm really intrigued by, and so that's why I really like appreciate this conversation because like with the endometriosis, like that could really help that situation. And yet I think about like my situation where it's like, I don't think I needed to be on birth control for acne. Like I just look back and I'm like, I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done that to, I would not put my child on birth control for acne, but that's just my personal like perspective. So it's a nuance, like I'm curious your thoughts on like the nuances of it.

Charis Chambers
Yeah, it's very nuanced. I think even just that statement, right? I wouldn't have wanted to put my child on birth control for just acne, but Accutane is actually a teratogenic medication. It's actually really strong. It has major side effects. We have a very strong bias for how we view birth control. Birth control is still medicine. Birth control is just progesterone and estrogen, which is but your body already makes. It doesn't have this crazy harm against if there was a fetus. It wouldn't terribly and permanently damage it. Even just that statement suggests that we're conditioned to accept the side effects and risks of other medicines, but when it becomes birth control, it's unacceptable. It's inappropriate and it's wrong.

I do think a lot of that is because of patriarchy and just the way society has taught us to look at medicines that we use for the female body. A lot of people are like, but birth control doesn't cure anything. Well, neither does my blood pressure medicine. Neither does insulin, right? Neither does the majority of SSRIs or none of those things, cure things, but you've decided it's appropriate. And so deciding for adolescents who are in debilitating pain that it is appropriate for them to be in pain is just wrong or deciding for the adolescent whose acne actually is significantly impairing their self-esteem and their social life that it's inappropriate to be on birth control is wrong.

Melanie Avalon
No, I'm so glad you said that and because I kind of stopped myself short and I would have extended it to say I just I have a different view now of both the birth control and the Accutane which I agree like the site like that that is it's an intense drug. It is so intense.

Charis Chambers
And we were just doing it 12, 12 weeks.

Melanie Avalon
Here's all it was like, oh my God. It's so intense and it has so many problems associated with it.

And then at the same time, like you said, I went on it and for me, it changed my life for the better. I went from loathing my skin, it being such a negative thing in my life to it just went away, which was the most freeing thing. And so I guess we make everything so black and white and we put morality into it. And I just think we need more education information about everything so people can make the best choices. But then we're like kids, it's the parents who are leading that for them. So thank you again for your book.

Charis Chambers
Nuance, and I love this because it stretches me. It makes me want to be better, and just the fact that we are talking about what longevity looks like, and we want to redefine what aging looks like, but we are so archaic in our beliefs of what adolescence should look like, that acne is just par for the course, and it's a birthright, or it's just an expected thing.

But for some people, that's really, really traumatic for them. For some people, their pain is really, really awful from their very first period. And so I want the nuance that we're bringing to aging, to menopause, to how women show up, to extend to our youngest folks, because they are free and real people who are deserving and worthy of a good quality of life, like the same quality of life that makes us human, that makes us want to feel fulfilled. It should not be minimized just because

Melanie Avalon
they're younger. Now with social media, and we've talked about all these myths that get perpetuated on social media. And at the same time, it does open the dialogue because now it is talked about more.

So how do you feel about like the pros and cons of the social media situation? Like if you could like flip a magic wand, I mean, well, obviously you're like, you're like an influencer on social media, like spreading all this education. Do you feel like it's like going to battle every day? Or is it like a good thing? How do you feel?

Charis Chambers
So some days I do feel like I'm going to battle and I feel like I'm going to battle with a slingshot and a prayer and people have like, you know, all sorts of things. So I love social media.

I love social media because it gives people who historically did not have a voice a voice. I think social media and just the nature of communities that can be built online allow for people who have been marginalized and forgotten and been decentered to finally feel centered. Everyone can find their people online. The problem is that voices that may not have the best intentions, voices that have major biases without meaningfully disclosing those, voices that have political agendas and things that are actually harmful for the health and wellness of the folks listening, those are also amplified too. And the nature of the algorithms that are out there elevate things that are sensationalized, that cause really, really strong emotional responses. And many of my educational videos are not going to really be able to fight against something that says all of your doctors are lying to you, you know, or under control or whatever. And so it does feel difficult. But what I know is the alternative is a world in which people are not able to speak up. People are not able to share their stories. Voices are not able to be heard and communities are not able to be created where people feel seen and validated and where they can can build trust. And so I remember the days where I just spoke to patients in my office every 15 to 30 minutes, every day back to back to back. And I was not reaching millions of people like I reached today. So I have to acknowledge the beauty and the incredible impact that is possible with social media while also acknowledging the potential harm.

And so I think that there need to be limitations on social media. There needs to be, you know, guardrails and safety opportunities, especially for younger kids. But I would not want to be in a world where social media did not exist, where people like myself who otherwise would just be stuck in a clinic saying the same thing over and over again can make one video and reach millions. Like that's kind of really amazing. And I can impact the lives of people that don't necessarily can't come to my office or don't have the resources to travel or don't have insurance or whatever that would be necessary to be seen. They can still benefit.

Melanie Avalon
it from the work. I feel that's basically that's how I feel about all of it as well because people, my mom's always like, Melanie, you should be like, well, I, um, no, I, I, and doctors are absolutely, absolutely incredible.

I just, I appreciate that I can like create content and, you know, reach so many people. Also I don't have, I mean, you are a doctor. I don't have the liability that comes along with being a doctor. So that's nice with writing your book. What was the most challenging aspect of it?

Charis Chambers
I think the most challenging aspect was carrying throughout every chapter the grace and consideration necessary to be able to disarm the reader without offending or polarizing them. We live in a world that is so extreme and so polarizing, and it hurts my heart, especially because there is not much truly controversial about periods, like in baseline, right? Like it happens, it's physiological, like whatever you believe, it happens, right? So it is so hard to have to wade through the foolishness that happens when you pile politicalization and hypersexualization, adultification, all of these things that make periods and puberty feel heavy. And so while that is difficult to navigate, I have to always hold space for what people carry individually and make sure that if I am creating an environment in which I expect and hope that people are truly going to learn, above all, I have to make them feel safe.

And safety requires that I can't leave with extreme thoughts or blanket statements or gross generalizations. I have to leave room. And so everything I wrote, I was like, who's forgotten here? Who'd be offended here? What does the opposition look like in trying to be as thoughtful as possible? Because I want my book to not just reach people who think like me, I want my book to reach everyone. I want my book to reach anyone who can benefit from medical accuracy and compassion in the puberty and period space. And I had someone say, you know what? I don't have any kids, but I feel like I'm going to read your book to heal the girl inside of me, the little girl inside. I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. I was like, I got to go reread it for the little girl inside the adult. So I think that was the hardest part. There's a lot of responsibility to writing. There's an immortalization of your words. And it doesn't feel like a tweet. It doesn't feel like a 60 second reel. It feels like something that is tangible that will outlive me. And I just wanted to give it the grace and thoughtfulness.

Melanie Avalon
that it deserved. I can understand, especially because, you know, like the way I opened the show was talking about all of this shame and stigma and just like tiptoeing. It's like the most tiptoeing subject. And so I can totally see how writing that and making sure that you're seeing everybody and everybody feels included or is included, how that would be really challenging. And I know for me, because I talk pretty openly on this show about all of these topics, and I think it's because I had such a, like I said, from the way I was raised and the epiphanies I had about how I realized how biased it was, and I've just made it a mission to like talk about this very openly. And my audience in general is extremely kind and empathetic and open-minded. And I'm, and like the only, I rarely get like negative feedback. I will say when it, if I do get like somebody directly emailing me, it's usually because of talking so openly about like sexual health and wellness and things like that. So it's definitely still, you know, very something to be navigating on that note.

So Clue is being so kind. They are actually, speaking of fabulous listeners, they're actually giving listeners a code for 12 months free. So like Charis was saying, this app has a paywall, which is incredible because it supports data privacy and they are not selling your data to people. So you can feel very comfortable and confident that when you're having Clue and using Clue that your data is safe and, you know, not being used in a negative way that you would not like. And so it is a paid app. And that said, you can get it a year free, which is amazing. So you can use the coupon code Melanie Avlon. You do need to log in for that to work. So we will put a link in the show notes that will directly help you log in and apply the code. If not, you can go to helloclue.com slash login and then use the coupon code Melanie Avlon to get 12 months free. So thank you to the Clue. Thank you Clue for giving our audience that.

Okay. This has been so amazing. Was there anything that you wanted to touch on or share with listeners before? Oh, and tell me, tell the name of your book again so listeners can either pre-order it or order it.

Charis Chambers
It's available for pre-order at all of the major retailers. It is called the period and puberty parenting revolution, and it will be truly released on May 19th of 2020.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. I'm so excited.

I cannot wait to read it. I would love to have you back after I've actually read it so I can dive even deeper. Was there anything else that you want to share with listeners? Anything that you wanted to clarify or put out there and then how people can best follow your work? Sure. So,

Charis Chambers
The only thing I will clarify, and I would just add this to how Clue is different, and this is something that I noticed when I was actually signing up for Clue. When you log into Clue and it gives you the little terms and conditions that most people just scroll through and you're like, yeah, it has the most straightforward, easy to understand terms and conditions where you can opt into every single thing. I can opt into my de-identified data being used for research studies. I can say, I don't want that, and all of the things, even something as simple as a streaming service, I was like, I can actually read and understand this.

The reason is their job and their goal is not to dupe you. It is not to trick you into opting into something. It is a model of true informed consent, which is what I like to carry into my appointments with my patients. When I have a patient that comes in and says, I didn't take that medicine because I didn't understand it, I say, I'm so happy you didn't. I never want you to take anything you don't understand, so let's talk more about it so you can feel good about it.

I love that because Clue models that same thing. It is not trying to trick you into just signing away all of your rights. It is trying to say, how can we protect you best? Even though we think it's great to use your de-identified data to fill research gaps, we want to make sure that you feel good about it. Do you truly? I just think that is something that is a rarity in this day and age. It's just a rarity to feel considered and to feel protected in that way. I just love the idea of being a part of something that is continuing to consider and protect people in a world that doesn't do so all that much. Yeah, I just wanted to add that.

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing out of all the brands. I work with I have one brand where their contracts they write them It's still legal, but it's written so you can actually like understand it and I'm like, this is so refreshing like and it really shows like you said that they're not hiding anything like they really care about that you have agency and how your Data is being used and what you're agreeing to so I love that love that and then okay The last question that I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day the importance of mindset So what is something that you're grateful for?

Oh my goodness

Charis Chambers
I'm so grateful for health. And I think health looks a lot of different ways for people, but as someone who was diagnosed with a chronic illness at a really young age, almost 10 years ago, to live the life I live and to be able to have had a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby, I don't take it for granted that one day.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. Well, thank you, Charis. This has been absolutely amazing.

We will put links to everything in the show notes. Again, listeners, go get the Clue app now. Decide what you're opting into. Use the code Melanie Avalon to get 12 months free of that. And congrats in advance on your book. And this has just been so wonderful. Thank you for everything that you're doing. It's really, truly stunning. Thank you.

Charis Chambers
You are excellent. You are probably one of my favorite podcast hosts I've ever talked to, ever, and I've done a lot.

I think it's just your authenticity and just the way you ask questions, it feels so comfortable and calming. And so I pride myself on creating safety and comfort, but I think you do quite well in your podcast base doing the same thing. So tell your mom, you're actually doing exactly what doctors do, or the good ones at least.

Melanie Avalon
You're the best. Well, enjoy. This is so wonderful. Enjoy the rest of your day and hopefully see you soon.

Thank you so much, you too. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guests and always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com and always remember, you got this.