Stacy Toth blogs with her husband (Matthew McCarry). They co-host and produce the top rated syndicated podcast, The Paleo View as well as authored 3 bestselling family-friendly cookbooks as well as multiple eBooks, including Healthy Inside & Out! They and their award-winning recipes have been featured in several national publications, television, radio shows, podcasts and online.

Stacy & Matt are well-known for their candor and openness from everything from the ups and downs of two decades together, parenting, pop culture, and lifestyle changes that saved their health. With multiple autoimmune diseases and a lifetime of gaining and losing hundreds of pounds, Stacy focuses on finding health and wellness - inside and out - through self love, respect, and acceptance.

It may all be held together with duct tape and lots of love, but we focus on reducing stress, finding joy, and spending quality time together. Most recently, because of a team of amazing women entrepreneurs also focused on sharing the mission of clean living and safer skincare, Stacy quit her executive career to work full-time online and with her Beautycounter babes! She's sharing all about their new life at RealEverything.com

LEARN MORE AT​:

realeverything.com
@realeverythingblog on IG

SHOWNOTES

01:35 - BEAUTY COUNTER:  Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Go To Beautycounter.com/MelanieAvalon For Non-Toxic Beauty Products, And Something Magical Might Happen After your first purchase! Also Get Exclusive Updates And Discounts On Melanie's Beauty Counter Email List, At MelanieAvalon.com/BeautyCounter!

3:30 - LISTEN ON HIMALAYA!: Download the free Himalaya App (www.himalaya.fm) to FINALLY keep all your podcasts in one place, follow your favorites, make playlists, leave comments, and more! Follow The Melanie Avalon Podcast in Himalaya For Early Access 24 Hours In Advance! 

03:45 - Paleo OMAD Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook group to discuss and learn About all things biohacking! All conversations welcome!

5:15 - Stacy's Personal Diet History

8:35 - Managing Inflammation And Autoimmune Disease In The Body

10:00 - The Science Of Toxins And Skin: Is Natural Best?

13:15 - How Much Does Diet Vs. Skin Products Affect Skin Health?

18:00 - An Elimination Skin Routine 

EWG Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database

19:50 - What products are most toxic? 

22:30 - What nutrients are needed for skin health?

25:15 - Topical Nutrient Absorption 

Lifespan: Why We Age – and Why We Don’t Have To

30:25 - The Skin As A Reflection Of The Gut And Microbiome 

35:25: kApex by BioOptimizers: Struggling with energy levels or digestion on a low carb or Keto diet? kApex is specifically formulated to help you digest your food, burn fatty acids, power your mitochondria, and so much more! Say goodbye to Keto-struggles, and hello to epic energy, without crashes or burnout! Use The Link http://www.kenergize.com/melanieavalon With The Coupon Melanie20 For 20% Off Your Order!

38:00: BEAUTY COUNTER:  Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Go To Beautycounter.com/MelanieAvalon, and Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Purchase! For Exclusive Offers And Discounts, And More On The Science Of Skincare, Get On Melanie's Private Beauty Counter Email List At MelanieAvalon.com/BeautyCounter!

38:20 - If Your Skin Seems Fine... Should You Change? 

40:40 - European Vs American products

42:45 - Photodamage From UV And Blue Light

43:15 - Heavy Metals In Mineral Makeup

48:00 - What is a good skincare routine?

50:35 - Saturated Fats And The Skin

53:00 - Topical Fat Absorption 

56:00 - the hidden ingredient loophole 

1:00:05 - Melanie's Beauty Counter History

1:01:20 - Stacy's Beauty Counter History

1:04:10 - B Corporations 

1:06:05 - The Beauty Counter Non Toxic Standards Vs. Other "Natural" Healthy Lines

1:07:30 - Heavy Metals In Makeup

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. So I am here today with Stacy Toth. Actually, I've never met Stacy in person, and actually, this is the first time Stacy and I are talking, but we run in very similar spheres. 

Melanie Avalon:
She is the co-host of the top podcast, The Paleo View, which, I've listened to a few episodes of that, Stacy. It's a wonderful podcast. I absolutely love it. And you co-host it with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, and so we have a real similar world. So it's a pleasure to meet you, sort of, in person.

Stacy Toth:
Thanks so much for having me. And nice to meet you as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Stacy is also the author of a ton of really best-selling cookbooks, multiple e-books, including Healthy: Inside And Out, and she has a really, really fascinating history of how she came to this whole world, and the topic that we're going to discuss today, which is skin care. But Stacy, would you like to tell listeners a little bit about your personal diet history, and how you did come to where you are today, both with health, with diet, with food, with all of that stuff, and then, ultimately, with skin care?

Stacy Toth:
Yeah, absolutely. So I've been blogging, podcasting, authoring, blogging, way before blogging was cool, over a decade at this point. And I originally found my niche and success with The Paleo Diet. Our blog was originally called The Paleo Parents back in the day. And we transitioned our three young kids at the time to living a paleo lifestyle. And for us, that means nutrient density and low anti-inflammatory.

Stacy Toth:
Today, nothing is perfect, in terms of how one would eat, as prescribed by a piece of paper or a diet challenge. But it has enabled, for example, my oldest son, who's now 14, to go off of a daily inhaler, which he was on when he was much younger, and no longer needs. 

Stacy Toth:
My middle son had really bad eczema, the doctors, when they had to put him on steroids at two and a half years old, and he no longer has eczema. He does occasionally get dry skin patches. But we work through ingredients that work for his skin, so that it is managed, and doesn't fully flair. And we've done that all with diet and lifestyle.

Stacy Toth:
So, by eliminating foods that caused irritation and inflammation in all of us, it caused health, and then, the byproduct of that was also weight loss. And I think, early on in our journey, and my husband and I really focused on weight loss. And we got caught up in what I would call a diet culture mentality. We, together, lost 200 pounds. 

Stacy Toth:
And I just feel like, after being in this community for a decade, it's made me realize that there's so much more to health than weight. And so now, I try to focus on health at any size, and really focusing in on being healthy, inside and out. And that will look different on every single body, but the goal is to have low inflammation, and good cholesterol, and all of those kinds of things that indicate health, versus the size of someone's pants, or whatever it might be.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I feel like it's a really similar story with a lot of people that they... A lot of people do originally come, well, for two reasons. A lot of people came to the paleo diet in the food world for the fat loss. Other people, it's like a lure, and then they stay for the health benefits. Or the flip side, which you talked about, as well, they come there for the health issues, but it becomes more of a comprehensive overall diet that just supports so many things.

Melanie Avalon:
But I really love your approach, and your perspective, because you really understand that it really is up and down, and a constant learning about what works and what doesn't work. And something might work one day, and not another day, and I think, especially just dealing with things like chronic inflammation, and autoimmune conditions, I appreciate your realness in the matter.

Stacy Toth:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, what is so important to me, that anyone who is going through this understands, which is, for example, I have insane amounts of autoimmune... Celiac is my base autoimmune disease. But then, I also have thyroid, and I have a couple of conditions that affect my gut. And it all plays out in terms of how I need inflammation in my body, so that my immune system is regulated.

Stacy Toth:
And so, I can't eat tomatoes. Tomatoes, for me, are almost as bad as a gluten. And I'm celiac, and I'm actually, also, genetically anaphylactic to gluten, which is really rare. And so, for me, tomatoes are almost that bad, in terms of inflammation triggers. But to me, that doesn't make tomato a bad food for someone who doesn't have the same conditions that I have, or whose body doesn't process it the same way. 

Stacy Toth:
So I think a lot of people go looking for, "Give me a set of rules to follow, and tell me exactly what I need to do." But then, it's not going to look the same for everybody. So I delved about as much as I could into that. 

Stacy Toth:
Like I said, I've been blogging, and all of the books and cookbooks and podcasts for so long, that it reached a point where I was like, "I've said everything I can say. I have thousands of recipes out there. Whatever you need, it's there." And I started learning more about toxic lifestyle in general, whether it be the cleaning products that you use in your home, or the products that you put on your skin, there's so many factors to health than food, and the sunlight that you absorb when you're outside, to the exercise that you get, and how much you sleep, all of it plays into your health.

Stacy Toth:
And as we were podcasting, and we started tackling so many of these other lifestyle issues, one of the things that hadn't been tackled, three-plus years ago, when I started doing more of nontoxic living, was skin care. And so, it became a lot for me, the importance of researching, from a PubMed perspective, on the science of skin.

Stacy Toth:
I had all these notions in my head, at that time, that natural was best. I was using coconut oil the way that Chris Rock refers to Robitussin. My kids had an injury, the skinned knees outside? Coconut oil. Whatever it was, it was coconut oil. I think he also references Windex, right? It's like Windex and Robitussin. 

Stacy Toth:
For me, it was coconut oil on everything, food, body, whatever. And the more that I learned, it was like, "Oh, my goodness, natural is not necessarily the best. There's no active ingredients in coconut oil that is nourishing my skin, and the type of fat that it is can actually be occlusive." And I was having really bad acne, and I couldn't figure out what was going on. As soon as I stopped using coconut oil, and started using cleaner ingredients on my skin, my acne cleared up. 

Stacy Toth:
And acne is a sign of inflammation, so it was a way of me to identify the next step in my phase. I had really tackled and dialed down on food. I was working on supplements, and all of these other things that I was doing. I was a competitive lifter, I did the sport of Strongman for a long time. 

Stacy Toth:
And so, I had all these different things that I had going on, that was working on my health. And yet, I had a face full of acne, and I just didn't feel like it represented how healthy I lived my lifestyle. So, in that research, it became a passion of mine that I wanted to share about. And my kids were older at that time, too. 

Stacy Toth:
My son is now 14, but when I started the blog, he was four, so it no longer was relevant for me to be The Paleo Parents anymore. It wasn't strictly paleo. We eat rice, because it doesn't bother us, and I was lifting, and I needed carbohydrate, and so, there were things that I was like, "You know what? I'm going to restructure what we're doing, and I'm going to tackle this from a nontoxic living perspective."

Stacy Toth:
So our blog went from being paleo parents to being real everything, and my passion became helping people identify what their skin issues were, and what are some ways that they can help improve their health, both inside and out? Because it really does play a huge factor.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, wow, so... So many things that we could touch on there. First of all, I agree with you completely about, there's no one right diet for everyone. Just wanted to acknowledge that. It drives me crazy, when people try to prescribe, "Oh, do this, and that will be the answer," or, "Do this." So, same page there. 

Melanie Avalon:
I love how you brought up the whole thing about coconut oil. I think it's so interesting with the skin care. Because, on the one hand, you have the people who are wedded to conventional products, so the obstacle or the discussion that needs to happen is about why to switch to more natural. 

Melanie Avalon:
But then, on the flip side, we have the ironic situation that you acknowledged, where people go super all natural, and just want to use coconut oil, and castile soap, and nothing else. So, really fascinated to dive in deep, and get your perspective on what does blend the best of both worlds, when it comes to skin health. 

Melanie Avalon:
So, a foundational question I'd love to start with, with that whole sphere, and this relates to everything you're saying with diet being so related to our state of inflammation, and our skin health. So, Stacy, how much do you think one's present skin condition comes down to diet, versus what they're using on their skin, or not using?

Stacy Toth:
Well, I think that's a good question, and lifestyle, yes. I think that's a loaded question, though, because it really depends on the person, and the type of products that they might be using, and their body's reaction to it, right? So one person might be having... For example, I've worked with people who have, especially teenagers, who have a diet and lifestyle of not sleeping, and eating terrible food. And I would say, maybe 90% of that is lifestyle.

Stacy Toth:
And then, as soon as they get their hormones in balance with health, then it's just a simple topical treatment. So, for example, my 14-year-old only uses one product on his face, and he's fine. And some of his friends come over, and I'm like, "Oh, do you want to talk?" Like, I used to say, and see what's happening. And I'd love to help you, but I'm also not going to violate your personal space about your own body, and bring it up.

Stacy Toth:
But then there are, I think, other people like me, who had so much lifestyle and diet dialed in. And the products that I was using were actually causing inflammation. So I went from someone who bought everything from Seophora. I was a super makeup junkie. Before I had kids, I did makeup tutorials online, before online was cool. 

Stacy Toth:
There was all these underground makeup trading websites, which, now I think back on it... I was like, "That was so gross." People would use some of the expensive high end products, and then trade with other people, so they could try a whole bunch.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you serious?

Stacy Toth:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, man!

Stacy Toth:
It was a scene.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny.

Stacy Toth:
I'm telling you, I've been online, before probably most of your listeners have been online, in terms of LiveJournal, and all kinds of stuff. And so, for someone like me, to have completely switched over from all of those products that Sephora was using... And I was crazy about the naturalness of the stuff that I was using, on my skin, and my hair. My hair was gross. I was doing no poo, it was a situation. And probably that extra oil on my scalp wasn't helping my hairline, which was full of acne as well, right?

Melanie Avalon:
How long did you do that, by the way? I always wanted to try it, the no poo thing.

Stacy Toth:
Oh, months.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? Did you hair ever-

Stacy Toth:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
"Adjust"?

Stacy Toth:
No, it never adjusted, ever. I was really into curly hair, and I had, at the time, I had a corporate executive job. And I just was so embarrassed by my greasy hair, and there wasn't clean, dry shampoo yet. So, anyway, it was a whole situation. But for me, that was 90%, at that point, what I was putting on skin was causing my acne, versus the 10% of additional tweaking that I did with supplements, and some other things, around that same time.

Stacy Toth:
Still, to this day, even though I have super dialed in lifestyle, and nutrition, and skin care, I might make a choice that's not the best for me. This week, I've been eating cheese, and I have a zit. And I 100% know, that that's why I have acne, and I knew that that was going to happen, but I made the choice anyway.

Stacy Toth:
So I think it's a matter of learning, each individual person, what are their triggers? And the only way you can do that is by doing some sort of elimination process. And then, getting to a place of normalcy, with low inflammation, as best as you can get it. And then, tweaking, either back, to see what you can add in. Or if you're happy with that, tweaking some other aspects of your life, to see if they can make a difference, as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So, sort of like, with the diet, you can see, the symptoms come up, after an elimination diet, to see what foods don't work with you. Sounds like it's really similar, with skin health. 

Melanie Avalon:
So what would that look like, actually, if somebody wanted to do a, "not an elimination diet," but an elimination? So if we did that, that elimination phase, for the skin, would that include, both an elimination diet, and an elimination skin care routine, or...

Stacy Toth:
I actually recommend people change things out, one at a time, because your skin can react to something. And if you just changed four things, you're not going to know, what it's reacting to. And if you have normal skin, maybe you're using, like, a conventional product, with less safe ingredients. 

Stacy Toth:
And then you move to a cleaner ingredient product line, and your skin reacts, and you get breakouts, or you get redness, or whatever it might be, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, and say, "I'm not going to use these cleaner products, they don't work for me," right? 

Stacy Toth:
It might have been one thing. Or it might have been that your skin was just like, "Whoa! What's happening?" And it just needs a little bit of transition time. So, I actually recommend, I really like the website, EWG, Environmental Working Group, has something called a Skin Deep Database. And you can get the app for free on your phone. 

Stacy Toth:
You can also plug products in, just on your PC or whatever, as well. And they prioritize the safety of products that you're using by the ingredients that are listed, and each ingredient is rated on a scale of one to 10 for safety. And then they'll look at all of the ingredients, as well as the transparency of the brand, because the brand might not disclose all of their ingredients, for example. And then, it will give you an overall rating for that product.

Stacy Toth:
So one of the things that I recommend people do, if they do want to transition, is go through all of the products that they're using, and prioritize the ones that they're using the most often, the ones that have the highest toxicity rating. And then, specifically, I personally have found a lot of science to suggest that the things that you breathe, and the things that you consume, so things like a lipstick are the absolute, most toxic, because you're actually consuming them.

Stacy Toth:
The rate of absorption, for example, in cadmium, which is a heavy metal, is 60 times greater, than if you were put something topically on your skin. Because your skin has a natural barrier. And so, while it is absorbed, the absorption rate, and the risk of toxicity, is actually lower. So it's a matter of looking at what you're using, and identifying high risk items, and then, I suggest people transition them, one at a time.

Stacy Toth:
Also, because it's expensive, to completely replace everything that you're using. And for some people, that works. Like when I went paleo, it was an all or nothing thing for me. I hadn't transitioned and run out of foods, and then, I just replaced them with healthier foods. I just was like, "Okay, today, I no longer eat any grains or beans, or dairy, or refined sugar." It was like, "This is the life that I live." But I think it's harder, with the skin, to know how everything's reacting, if you're not going slow. 

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's the same way. I am sort of an extremist. I'm like, "All or none," "In or out." So I feel like I, despite all the guidance and advice you just give, I feel like, if I were using the conventional makeup, and then I listened to this episode, I would have been, "Changing it all now!"

Stacy Toth:
Yeah, I would categorize makeup in one bucket. Because if you have proper skin care on your skin, other than the powders and lipsticks that I just mentioned, which are absorbed differently, you've actually created an additional barrier on your skin, beyond your skin's barrier, with the protection of the treatments you might be putting on your skin, and stuff like that.

Stacy Toth:
And so, makeup, most people are not going to see a reaction to. I know some people are sensitive to foundations, or a CC or a BD cream, or something like that, in makeup. But usually, that's because the ingredients are terrible, and they're clogging pores. So it's pretty rare that I hear from people, that they react from makeup, so I think it's safe to swap all of your makeup.

Stacy Toth:
But I think of it more as, so after you've eliminated everything, and you're reintroducing, you're doing that, usually one at a time, so that you can see how your body's reacting, as you add back in some of the foods that you might be concerned are causing inflammation. So it's the same. I think it's, if you want to think about it that way, it's better to do it, one at a time.

Melanie Avalon:
Got you. So while we are still in the food-related sphere of this conversation, what are the primary nutrients that we do need, to support skin health, that we do get from food? Just as far as fats go, and vitamins, and just from that end?

Stacy Toth:
Yeah. Well, I'm a big proponent of Vitamin D, and getting natural sunlight. I think it's really important people understand that that is a super important nutrient that's regulating almost all of your hormones, and how they interact with one another. Like you said, healthy fats are important. I don't have a gallbladder, so the fats that I consume look like a little different for somebody else. I personally really do well with mid-chained fats, so ones that aren't super saturated, and aren't mono.

Stacy Toth:
But it really has to do with, also, hydration, so making sure that you're drinking enough water, and that you're not overconsuming sugar, for example, and that could be in any form. That could be a high carb, processed-type diet. If you're consuming a bunch of refined carbohydrates, then your body is processing them as sugars. Or if you're drinking diet sodas, your body is consuming them in that same sort of way. And so, all of those play into, for example, your under eye.

Stacy Toth:
So I get a lot of questions from people who have dark circles under their eyes, and they want to know what, topically, they can put on it. And the first thing that I tell them is that they need to drink more water, and that they need to eat less sugar. And that that is going to give them better results than any product that I can recommend. 

Stacy Toth:
I really think it just depends on the person, and the lifestyle that they're living, but ultimately, eating a nutrient-dense diet, and specifically, just seeking out foods that are high in nutrients. So, whether it's zinc, or it's Vitamin C, especially, collagen is really great. Vitamin C and collagen both play a synergistic role in the aging process, especially for women. 

Stacy Toth:
As we get older, our collagen production slows down, and if we don't have adequate Vitamin C, the collagen that we do have won't be synthesized. So if you're seeking out foods that are nutrient rich, so when I look at a food label, I'm less concerned about the calories, or even the fats and carbohydrates, than I am looking at the actual nutrient profile list.

Stacy Toth:
Because if I'm about to consume something that has 1,000 calories, and it doesn't offer me significant micronutrients, then it's a nutrient poor food. It's giving me calories without nutrients. So it's about seeking out foods that are really nourishing you, both inside, and that will play on the outside, as well.

Melanie Avalon:
And then, when it comes to those nutrients, do you know much about the topical absorption of things like Vitamin D, Vitamin C, when put directly on our skin, compared to... Well, we could ingest Vitamin D in fish. But compared to ingesting them, is one route more beneficial? Is it more about what you're addressing?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I feel like, especially with skin care, makeup products, they're always like, "Full of Vitamin E, full of Vitamin C, full of this, full of that." But are those actually applicable when put directly on the skin?

Stacy Toth:
Again, the answer is that it depends. I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but no, that's the answer. 

Stacy Toth:
So, for example, someone who has low testosterone, and is getting created by a doctor, could get a cream that is absorbed into the body, and it's measured and expected in a certain way for it to be absorbed into the body. But you can also inject testosterone, and that's going to be absorbed in a different way. So the answer is, yes, essentially, anything that you're doing is absorbed. But it's a matter of what you're trying to protect against, or what you're trying to absorb, and the volume of that.

Stacy Toth:
For example, we did a podcast on chlorine absorption. And one of the things that we went really in depth on is Vitamin C. Because, as a result... Well, not as a result of lifting, but I was trying to show off to someone, and I wasn't using good form, and I wasn't wearing a belt. And it was in a garden, and I was lifting up a piece of concrete, and I tweaked my back. And my back is, essentially needs surgery, but I've been living a low inflammatory lifestyle and doing physical therapy for three years, because I don't want to do surgery.

Stacy Toth:
And so, I swim a lot, and because my body does well with swimming. And my concern was that chlorine, absorbed into the body, is not so great. If I'm in the pool several times a week, what was the risk for me? And one of the things that we researched was that both topical prevention, as well as increased consumption, either by supplement, or by foods rich in Vitamin C, can play a role. 

Stacy Toth:
Where, logically, that plays in, is Vitamin C is a really powerful antioxidant, and it's probably healing the body, and helping the body either prevent the absorption, or process that through the body's natural detoxification process more quickly. So you can topically apply Vitamin C, which I do. I actually apply a Vitamin C facial oil serum, before I go into the pool now, because I know, will at least help with my face not being so affected by the chemicals. But it's not like I can bathe myself in a Vitamin C serum. That'd be pretty expensive, [inaudible 00:24:00] if you jumped into the pool.

Stacy Toth:
So I also increase my consumption of Vitamin C foods to prevent that. And I think, like I said, with testosterone, like it is with Vitamin D, there's different kinds of ways. So, in one case, the testosterone, you want to increase absorption through the skin, and in the other case, with Vitamin C, I'm creating a barrier and preventing against chemicals that are outside, causing damage. So it's really dependent on what someone's goal is, and what they're trying to achieve. 

Stacy Toth:
But in most cases, both are doing something to your body, whether you want it to, or not. If you're putting something in or on your person, or if it's in the air, and you're breathing it, it's affecting you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so interesting, and actually reminds me, I've been doing of research on... Because David Sinclair has his new book out on longevity. I've been reading that, and he was talking about the role of antioxidants in health and life span, and how we often think that the reason antioxidants are so supportive is because they're having an antioxidative effect, which they are. But that, likely, the foundational reason they're helping life span is because they're out regulating the body's natural production of antioxidants.

Melanie Avalon:
But I was just thinking about how you were talking about Vitamin C, and topically, it does work, and creates that barrier, and helps things. But you're talking about how, in the body, it's making the body healthier overall. So I think it's definitely a complicated, comprehensive picture. Like you're saying, it depends. There's so many complexities.

Stacy Toth:
It's such a copout answer, but I'm like, unless you're going to narrow down the question really specifically, I can't just make it like it's [inaudible 00:25:44].

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I know, that's the thing. Especially with skin care, there's so many potential issues people deal with. And I was asking in my Facebook group for questions for this episode. And there were so many specific questions, that it was like, "Ah, it's difficult," because it would be a very specific answer, I assume, for all the different things.

Stacy Toth:
I just think the skin is a really good reflection of the microbiome. So when you think about how unique each person's microbiome is, that's, I think, how unique their skin needs are, right? So I have a sister who's actually a fingerprint expert for the city. Super cool. 

Stacy Toth:
And in addition to being a fingerprint expert, she's also went to school, for just, bio-criminal investigation in general. And so, she knows a lot about, for example, iris uniqueness. Or she was talking to me that every single person's sinus cavity is actually unique as well. So when they're looking at skulls on imagery, they can actually identify people uniquely, just by their sinus cavity, and obviously, by fingerprints, as well.

Stacy Toth:
And so, one of the things she and I were talking about was DNA uniqueness, and how identical twins are identical DNA on paper. I was talking to her, and I was like, "I don't understand that, because there's so many nuances to our DNA, that even if you're identical twin, your lifestyle factors, and how that's affecting your body, on a day to day basis, is being affected."

Stacy Toth:
She was like, "Actually, there aren't public versions of this yet, but the scientists have figured out a way to dive into the sub-parts of DNA, and now, read those factors." When you're born, maybe they are completely identical, but then, over time, we're affecting our biology by every single thing that we do, and the things that we touch, and the foods we consume, and the products that we use, they're all playing a role into our body's uniqueness.

Stacy Toth:
And so, every single part of us, from our microbiome, to what's on our skin, to our DNA, is being affected by this stuff. So it's fascinating. I know you went on a tangent, but I'm like, I could geek out about that kind of stuff all day long. I think it's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I do, too. Oh, man. This is so great. Yeah, so the epigene, was that what she was referring to?

Stacy Toth:
I guess. She didn't use that word, because I think she... I don't know if she thinks I can't understand it, but I'm just sitting there, eyes all big, like, "Tell me more!" She's my baby sister, so we're 11 years apart. So I'm like, "Okay, cool! Well, tell me more, I want to talk about this more!" But I don't know. 

Stacy Toth:
I think my podcast partner is currently working on a book on microbiomes, so we talk a lot about the science that she's researching for that. And I just, I think the best way to think about it, is to think that your skin is a reflection of your microbiome, like your gut is a reflection of everything about your health, from mental health, to how your body is detoxifying, how it's absorbing the nutrients that you're eating. I mean, we haven't talked about that.

Stacy Toth:
But as a person with celiac, when I was eating gluten, that's when I was most morbidly obese, because I was craving food so much. Because I wasn't absorbing the food that I was eating, because if it was bound with gluten, my body wasn't able to absorb it. 

Stacy Toth:
So it's not just about what you eat, but it's also about determining whether or not you're actually absorbing those things, because if you have an intolerance to something, it could be preventing that. And so, your gut is a reflection on all of that stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
So I do want to ask a specific question about that, when you say it is a reflection of the microbiome, but then, the whole health, in general. Do you know anything about this specific... And I know the microbiome is so complicated, but do you know if there are specific strains that are, actually have been found in studies to relate to skin health? Or is that not really on your radar?

Stacy Toth:
I have not yet found anything, related to good health. I know that there are skin care lines out there, who use probiotics in the skin care products, to "improve" the biome the skin, but from my research and experience, unless that's a soil-based probiotic, it's not going to survive, especially if it's bound up with things like preservatives, that are probably killing a lot of the active cultures in the probiotic.

Stacy Toth:
So the best thing that I recommend for people is to increase their probiotic food consumption, whether that's by fermented foods, such as kombucha, and yogurt, and sauerkraut, and ideally, both, take a probiotic. So, for me, I take a soil-based probiotic each day, and that's one of the things that I said, when I was tweaking my skin, and I was working on supplements. Taking a probiotic was definitely one of the things that helped improve my gut, which, in then, in turn, improved my skin. 

Stacy Toth:
Because I just was healthier overall, and my skin. My body was less inflamed, and therefore, my skin inflammation was reduced, as well. 

Melanie Avalon:
I feel like the microbiome is such a frontier right now, so it'll be really interesting to see what comes from that. So going back to skin care, just in general, if somebody is seemingly fine with their skin routine, I guess, from two perspectives, using conventional products, but they feel like they have great skin... Or somebody who is on the flip side, maybe going the all natural route, and they're using barely anything, and they feel like they have great skin, do you think that they need to make changes at all? I guess there's two populations there, which might be different answers.

Stacy Toth:
For the person who's using conventional products, and is happy with their skin, I would say, take some hormone testing. There's a lot of companies that do at home testing. You can also, I think, even urine test with doctors, to see what you have going on, both from within your system, and what's not. I mean, there's tons of studies out there that show... For example, there was one, I think it was on PubMed, that took a group of teenagers and removed the products that they were using, and they saw a drastic reduction in the negative hormone responses to things like parabens, within three days of switching over. And I bet those teens would have told you they were fine, too.

Stacy Toth:
So until you test, I don't think that you can say that you know that you don't have stuff going on. And I think a lot of this stuff, we can see, is affecting us, because our cancer rates are increasing dramatically. So that's obviously a result of the Industrial Revolution, in general, as it comes to pollution and plastic in the food that we eat, and all of that kind of stuff. But it's also been proven in countless studies that the ingredients that are in a lot of the standard products these days are causing health problems, as well.

Stacy Toth:
If you were look at the EU, for example, they've banned 1,400 ingredients, that, US has only banned 38. So the EU has identified that there's over 1,300 ingredients that are causing harm to the citizens. And yet Americans are using those products. And the thing that gets me the most is that a lot of these companies are actually the same, and they have an EU formula, and then, they have an American formula. They switch the ingredients to be cheaper and worse for Americans, and make a higher profit, but literally, have the same lotion on the shelf, on EU and America.

Stacy Toth:
And they could choose to give Americans the better formula, and they don't. So I think, for me, I couldn't point to anything in particular, that I could say, "Oh, this particular cleaning product, or this particular skin care product was irritating me in a way that showed harm." The harm is happening on the inside, in a place where we can't see. 

Stacy Toth:
So, and unless you're, like I said, unless you're doing extensive testing on yourself, to know that what you're using is fine... And if you're listening to this podcast, I'm assuming that you're a person who's interested in being healthy, it's just a better thing to switch. It can't hurt, to switch to cleaner ingredients, when you know that the products that you're using cause harm. And like I said, you can see that EWG app to see what particular ingredients might be in that product, and what kind of harm it can cause.

Stacy Toth:
It can cause hormone disruption, it can cause fertility issues, I mean, our country has never had worse fertility than it does right now. And even if you're not trying to have babies, that's really representative of your overall health, because our sex hormones play such a role in everything else that we do. 

Stacy Toth:
Or it could be heavy metals, and your body's not detoxing them, which, as almost everybody knows, can cause poisoning in the body for things that you might not even realize are happening as a result of it. So, for that, I would say, why not switch? But for the person that's using all natural products, and is really happy with them, there's more power to you. Great, I'm happy for you.

Stacy Toth:
I think the point that I would say, as a woman with a teenager who is no longer a spring chicken anymore, there comes a point where those products aren't doing much for you. Maybe they're maintaining your skin today, but as you get older, they're not going to provide anti-aging benefits, or some of the other things that you might want.

Stacy Toth:
The other thing is if they don't have, for example, a natural SPF. So if it's not like a zinc oxide, you're causing photo damage to your skin. So you might not see it today, but in five years, you're going to have aging from the UV rays. And every single person today, especially those of us who are listening to a podcast, are exposing themselves to blue light, which is also causing aging. So a zinc oxide could SPF protects against that, as well. 

Stacy Toth:
So there's a lot of things, that you can go cleaner. But it's probably not going to be all natural, just because, from my experience and research... A lot of the, for example, all natural makeup, when it's tested, is really high in heavy metals. Because it's coming from a soil-based production that has metals and minerals attached to whatever it is that the color, or the clay, or whatever the base is. 

Stacy Toth:
I'm really passionate about testing. I'm a science-minded person. I want to see the results. I don't want someone just to tell me that something is natural. Snake venom is natural, poison ivy is natural, but I don't necessarily want to rub that on my skin, so I am interested in someone testing a product, and showing me that it's safe, and that it has benefits for my skin.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I was going to say, I don't know if you know this, but I don't think, there's no reason you would know this. I personally had heavy metal toxicity to an extreme amount, with mercury, so it's a huge passion of mine, when it comes to lifestyle choices, and vetting skin care products, vetting makeup. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I think, it's so interesting, because a lot of people try to be "healthy" with their makeup. So they go to these, like you were saying, these mineral-based foundations. And I am just like, "Guys! That's a prime source of things like lead, for example."

Stacy Toth:
Exactly, yes, especially if it's a powder-based mineral. Because, like I said, if you breathe it in, and you will breathe in powders. Even if your mouth is closed, you will inhale powders, as you're putting them on your face. Those heavy metals are being absorbed insanely more through your body. I mentioned the cadmium study earlier, but let's just say, 60 times, not 60%, 60 times more through inhalation, than on your skin.

Stacy Toth:
So, I mean, my mind literally explodes when I hear that, and people come to me, and they're like, "But I love my mineral-based powdered foundation!" I'm like, "Well, I love you, and so, I need you to stop using that!"

Melanie Avalon:
That is crazy, 60 times? That, and the stat about the chemicals in the, Europe, versus US. I'm going to put all this information in the show notes, guys. Which, by the way, the show notes will be at melanieavalon.com/skincare. 

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so, some more questions about the skin. To follow up, I asked about a simple routine. Because I, for example, I pretty much use castile soap to wash my face, and I'm a really sensitive butterfly. And for me, that is working right now. I don't know in the future, where that will go, if I need more moisture, or things like that.

Melanie Avalon:
I have heard that, when it comes to anti-aging, that moisture is the key. What have you found, when it comes to moisturizing the skin. Because you talked in the beginning about how coconut oil, for example, actually might not be the best thing for moisturizing the skin. So what does the skin need to retain moisture? Is it water? Is it fat? Is it some magical combination of random things?

Stacy Toth:
Yes. No. So, my definition of a simple skin care routine is wash, tone, moisturize. And that can look different for people, when people have a home-based, all natural skin care routine, apple cider vinegar is serving as their toner, in most cases. I actually had a good friend who liked honey as their moisturizer. She mixed it with oils, to, as you know, probably, there's all kinds of health benefits to honey, in terms of the bee pollen and stuff that's going in there. 

Stacy Toth:
And it can be antiinflammatory, and antibacterial, so it was actually helping her acne. And I actually use a, this is a complete side tangent, but an ointment that we use on my kids, when they get cuts and scratches, instead of it being the typical antibiotic ointment, we use a honey-based one. And I actually showed it to an ear doc, who told me how cool that was. But he loves the studies on it, and stuff like that. So there are ways to do things more naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
Was it manuka, by the way? I'm just wondering.

Stacy Toth:
It was not a manuka-based, so manuka is obviously amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
I wish it wasn't so expensive.

Stacy Toth:
Yeah. No, no, no, I can send you a link to the brand of products that uses honey for moisture. They also have a lotion. I'm not as big a fan of that one, but the ointment is amazing. So, anyway, I think everyone needs to wash, tone, moisturize, because you're washing your skin, especially if you're using something like castile soap, which can be really stripping of the skin. And if you have more oily prone skin that's probably working well for you.

Stacy Toth:
But someone who has drier skin, who lives in a higher climate, or who is aging, and has less oil and collagen in their skin, that's going to be really drying to them, which will hurt. You can get dry skin acne, which, for those who are curious what that looks like, it's usually a kind of small white bumps all over, versus the kind of cystic red pimples that are more associated with clogged pores, and oily skin.

Stacy Toth:
So if you're having that, it might be because you have dry skin. So, no matter what kind of skin you have, after you wash your face, you have to balance the pH. And that is what a toner is doing. There's all different kinds of toners you can use, like I said, as basic as apple cider vinegar, that never worked for me, but I know some people love it, to different face mists. I use something called In Essence, which has mineral-rich seawater as the base of it.

Stacy Toth:
Or you can use toner pads, which is what my son uses. It's like a cleaner version of Stridex, and he uses as his wash, tone and moisturize. I don't recommend his skin care routine, but he's a 14-year-old boy, and I'm happy he's using anything. But there's a lot of different versions of what a toner could be, and could look like. And then, a moisturizer, so I am not a believer in oil being a moisturizer. An oil is usually something that you can put into a moisturizer. So my nighttime moisturizer, I actually use a face cream, and then I put two drops of Vitamin C oil into it.

Stacy Toth:
But it's more of a treatment, so, for someone with really dry skin, or for someone with acne, you could use a blend of oils that kind of balances the skin, and soothes the skin. But oil, in and of itself, isn't going to be nutrient rich with active ingredients that are going to do anything to really protect and nourish the skin. And some of those oils, in most cases, can be occlusive, so it's a matter of finding the right oils that work for your skin.

Stacy Toth:
And for most people, coconut oil does not work. It works for a short amount of time, and then it builds up in the skin, and your pores become clogged, and it is occlusive. It's obviously a saturated fat.

Melanie Avalon:
When you say, it is a saturated fat, what is the context surrounding that? Like, what are the implications of that, when it comes to the skin? 

Stacy Toth:
It's just a very heavy fat. It's solid. If you put coconut oil in water, it sinks. And your skin is mostly water, right? If you think about something that's solid and hard like that, and you just drop it, it's so much heavier on the skin. And it's penetrating into your pores, and then it's stained deep in them, to clog them, versus if you're using a lighter oil, then that is something that topically can stay on the skin.

Stacy Toth:
If you've used a moisturizer, so, for example, something with hyaluronic acid, that is helping the skin bond to things. So if you look at what happens to water, when hyaluronic acid is present, under a microscope versus when it's not, it's actually able to absorb so much more hydration, because of it. And so, that's what I mean by active ingredients. 

Stacy Toth:
It's not that your oil might not work for you, but that over time, it's not going to be enough for that anti-aging. And it might not be nourishing your skin, in a way that really helps you be glowy, or helps your skin be bright, or different kinds of things, than just, if you have acne or not. I notice it when I change the type of skin care products that I use. I use the same brand all the time, just because I've found one that is safe in tests. And it's the only one that I've found that's like a B Corp, and does all this kind of stuff, and I feel good about that. 

Stacy Toth:
But I change up my routine from, this particular skin care line to this particular one, especially as the seasons change. And I notice the difference in how my skin looks and feels, or how it responds to food. For example, I think part of the reason that I got this zip, it's not just cheese, but because the weather's changing outside, and fall's coming, and it's cooler. 

Stacy Toth:
So I think that an oil can work. I myself use a Vitamin C oil I mentioned, but that oil is more of a serum than a true oil, because it's not just one oil, it's been blended with several kinds of oils, and then, it also has other active ingredients, like Vitamin C added, so that when your skin is taking in that moisture, it's doing something. It's giving it a real benefit and nourishment.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and actually, it's really interesting. I've been researching recently the availability of topical fats on this skin, and whether or not, like where, how far they would go into the skin cell, and whether or not it can enter the bloodstream. And it's really fascinating, because they were saying, and then I found a lot of studies that were in support of conventional makeup products, and skin care products, and everything.

Stacy Toth:
I'm shocked! Who funded those studies?

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I know! And they were saying, "No, in clinical tests, these products actually just basically remain in the outer layer of the skin cell and don't penetrate deeper, and don't enter the bloodstream, so it's not a problem." And I was like, "Eh, I don't know. Where is this coming from?" It's frustrating.

Stacy Toth:
Yeah, so there is something to your skin not absorbing everything. And I've done a lot of research, from a variety of different kinds of sources, and I can say, the skin does not absorb 100% of everything, because it is a natural skin barrier. But if you're someone who has an autoimmune disease, your skin barrier is weaker if you have a cut, obviously.

Stacy Toth:
So for example, most people have small tears in their cuticles. And if you're applying something to your hands, there it is, it's being absorbed straight into your bloodstream that way, right? There's a lot of ways that it is getting into your bloodstream, that people don't want to talk about, especially in your armpits, for safer deodorants, for women who are shaving their armpits, and then putting deodorant on, that's obviously going in, because you just opened the pore. 

Stacy Toth:
There is a barrier, and not everything gets through. I think the most I was able to find is, 39% is absorbed within, I think it was 30, it might have been 60 seconds, I don't have the source up in front of me. That's not a fact I have memorized, but it's something like that, right? It's about 40% within a minute is absorbed into your body. 

Stacy Toth:
So, even if you're using something, and you're, "Oh, it's only 40%," well, I mean... What's in that product that you're using?

Melanie Avalon:
I know, yeah.

Stacy Toth:
Forty percent could be really problematic. So, for me personally, the reason that I have done a lot of that research is actually for gluten. Because gluten is a protein, and in certain forms, the protein structure is not large enough, to penetrate the skin, and in other forms, it is. 

Stacy Toth:
So, for example, when wheat is turned into fermentation, or when it's turned into a sugar alcohol, those forms no longer contain the protein of gluten. And they are not going to be problematic for me, because I've told you earlier, I'm celiac, and I'm anaphylactic to boot. And so, I have to be really careful. But then there are other versions of the protein that are absorbed, and that do have gluten in them, so it's one of those, "it depends" kind of answers with skin.

Stacy Toth:
And it sucks that it's so nuanced, and it's not disclosed anywhere. I have a good friend who has an allergy to a particular ingredient, that's like, a weird, random, I think it's a nut, right? It's like a random thing, and she used a cream on her lady parts, that she looked at the ingredient list. 

Stacy Toth:
It did not contain anything for a concern for her, and she used this product on her lady bits. And turns out, that it had that nut in it, because companies are not required to disclose all of their ingredients. It's the loophole that good old America has.

Melanie Avalon:
What is this loophole? If it's less than a certain amount, I'm guessing?

Stacy Toth:
No. They can just pout it under fragrance. And not only is the fragrance loophole, huge, and a major problem for the US, but there is no way for the US government to regulate. So, for example, Claire's and Justice makeup for teens, that was tested by a third party mother who had concerns, she sent it off for testing, and they contained asbestos.

Stacy Toth:
Justice pulled the products voluntarily, because they didn't want to expose tweens and teens to breathing in asbestos in their makeup. Claire's didn't want it to hit their bottom line, and left the product on the shelf. And the FDA could not mandate a recall, because they don't have that power. The laws for the US personal care products are less than two pages long, and have not been updated since, I think, 1938. And back then, the most problematic personal care ingredients that we had were coal.

Stacy Toth:
So there is no prevention from companies doing whatever they want, and there is no requirement that they disclose every single ingredient, which is why that EWG transparency rating exists, because a company might say, these are their ingredients, or these are their active ingredients, but they don't have to tell you everything that's in there. So it's crazy. 

Stacy Toth:
It's, honestly, this is why it became my passion, because I'm like, "Here I am, I'm doing all of these things in my life, to live so clean, and yeah, I don't even know what I'm adding, from a topical perspective, in terms of how it's affecting my health." And the regulation on that is so far behind. I mean, there's legal, it's like, a bill that's been trying to go through for years, called the Personal Care Product Safety Act. 

Stacy Toth:
And each time, it gets sent to committee, and it dies in committee, because there's all these companies lobbying against it, because the large personal care brands don't want to be restricted in any sort of way. That law, that won't even be able to go through, would give the FDA the power to recall, and would give them the ability to test five ingredients a year, to say whether or not they're safe for Americans to use. And even at that level, it won't go through.

Stacy Toth:
So let's say it did go through. Like I said, we're at, I think, 38 ingredients that were allowed, or that are banned, but Europe is at 1,400. How many years would it take to catch up to Europe, at five ingredients a year? It's just crazy. The American people need to be outraged and do something about it, but people just don't know.

Melanie Avalon:
So, so maddening. But thankfully, we have people like you, and so, making a difference, and getting it out there. With all that said, this is actually how I came to know Stacy. I was introduced to Stacy through Noelle Tarr, actually, who co-hosts the Well-Fed Women Podcast. 

Melanie Avalon:
But what company or brand have you found, because you mentioned in the beginning, that you did find one company, that you felt good about, with these ingredients? So, how to say the company? The company's Beautycounter, and I've become a huge, huge fan of it myself, especially. Stacy knows way more details than I do. 

Melanie Avalon:
I came to Beautycounter, because I was looking for non-toxic, particularly in makeup. Because, like I said, Stacy, I actually do follow a very minimal skin care routine. So I came to it more for the makeup, because I was looking for makeup that would actually work, that would look good, that was not the, like we're talking about earlier, the "natural makeup."

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I would go into Ulta, or Sephora, and I would look up these makeup lines, maybe like, all these words, like "natural," "vegan," free of this, free of that. But then you flip it over, and you look at the ingredients, and you pull up the EWG, and you're just like, "No. I don't want to put this on my skin."

Melanie Avalon:
So I was finding it, honestly, really difficult to, A, part with the makeup that looked good on me, that was working, and then, B, actually find a line that was nontoxic to my body, that I could feel good about. And then, the icing on the cake would be a company that tests for heavy metals religiously, which Beautycounter actually does. So that really sold me.

Melanie Avalon:
But what has been your experience? How did you come to Beautycounter? And having done all your research, what did you find with that company?

Stacy Toth:
So I originally was introduced to Beautycounter about four and a half years ago, and I refused to even try their products for over a year. I wanted nothing to do with it. At the time, I was using, like I said, an all natural product. I was actually using something called Beauty Balm, by a popular brand that also sells supplements, and oils, and stuff like that. And at the time, those of you that have been in this community for four or more years, you might remember the scandal.

Stacy Toth:
There was a big scandal that happened, because a person in the community didn't believe that the products were what the company said that they were. And they sent them off to third party testing, to find out. And all of these fermented fish oils that the company claimed it was using, to have all of these health benefits... I mean, as I'm sure your listeners know, fish oil is high in Omega-3, and other kinds of things that are beneficial, to both inside and outside.

Stacy Toth:
And so, when they sent it off for testing, it turned out that it was actually rancid seed oil the company was using. It was not actually, either fully or partially, depending on the product, fish oil. And I was livid, I was so livid. I had been using this disgusting, fish-smelling cream on my face at night, that kept my husband and I from being intimate. 

Stacy Toth:
Because I had to put on the cream, after he would want to kiss me, or anything, because it was literally rancid. It was supposed to be fermented fish, and it had some lavender and some other things in it. But it smelled disgusting. And, to find out that what I'd been putting on my skin was actually not beneficial at all, and there was nothing that prevented the brand from marketing it however they wanted, just made me furious.

Stacy Toth:
And so, I went to my skin care of the time, her name is Liz Wolfe. She was part of the Balanced Bites Podcast for a really long time. And I just was friends with her, as part of the community, and she'd written this book called Skintervention. And so, I went to her, and... Because I knew she had also recommended that balm, and was also furious. 

Stacy Toth:
And I was like, "Listen. I'm so upset. I don't want to use any pure natural BS anymore. I need you to give me the lowdown on, what is the real stuff that will help my skin, and is also tested? That I can be comfortable, knowing that I'm, what I'm putting on my skin is what the brand is saying that it is. And she's like, "Yeah, you can put that on that stuff that I sent you six months ago, that's sitting in your house. That's what I recommend." And so, I did. 

Stacy Toth:
I fell in love with the products. I wanted, really, nothing to do with the brand. And it wasn't until I learned more. So I fell in love with the products, and then, I did a lot of research about the brand. And the brand is a B Corp, and for people that don't know what a B Corporation means, companies like Seventh Generation, and Patagonia, they're all part of a B Corp organization.

Stacy Toth:
That means that they put people and planet before profit, that's kind of the motto. And so, the companies that are B Corps, have to be transparent in how they run their businesses, and if it is a product-based business, the ingredients that they use. They have to treat their people fairly, and they offset their carbon emissions and footprint. 

Stacy Toth:
And so, the more that I learned... And then the other thing that I fell in love with, was that they test their products, every single product, eight times if it's skin care, nine times if if it's makeup, before it actually gets into a consumer's hand, for safety, 23 human health end points. And it's actually done by third party validation, as well.

Stacy Toth:
They partner with Tufts University, who does the testing for them, to make sure that there's no risks. And they screen ingredients before they'll even get to that point. And there's studies that show that there's even a chance of it being harmful, they don't touch it. 

Stacy Toth:
So, for example, retinol is technically an ingredient that people use all the time, but because there's so many potential issues with it, for photosensitivity, and allergen, and potential other issues, they refuse to use it. So making an anti-aging product was hard. But they use things like Vitamin C, like I talked about, antioxidants, and different kinds of ingredients like that, to make products that actually work, both from skin and makeup. 

Stacy Toth:
These days, I mean, I've been with the brand now, three years in August, actually. And these days, you see celebrities wearing the makeup on the red carpet, and representing safer skin care movement, which I just think is incredible, that we're... It's becoming a mainstream topic, that I think is so important.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know, I love that so much. And same page here, now, with a passion for Beautycounter. I do have a question, because, what are your thoughts on... Because I think, so, looking at the ingredients in Beautycounter, are there ingredients that, looking at the label... And of course, you can look up the EWG, and things like that.

Melanie Avalon:
But I think, especially people in the natural health world, and that we are in, people want every ingredient to be something like, something that can be like, a Whole Food, if that makes sense. So, the ingredients in Beautycounter, are they all, is every ingredient going to be-

Stacy Toth:
No, it's not an all natural brand.

Melanie Avalon:
Right, so what do you-

Stacy Toth:
And I'm totally okay with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. And why are you okay with that?

Stacy Toth:
What matters to me to safety. So, like I said, snake venom or poison ivy might be natural, but it's not necessarily good for you. And there's a lot of things that are synthetic, or manufactured, that aren't problematic. I mean, I have this philosophy in life, in general. I think that, when you take a kind of, black and white look in things, you're not really getting the best advantages.

Stacy Toth:
So, their makeup, for example, is pigmented, in some cases, with natural ingredients. But for, in most cases, it's actually a synthetic color. And it's been tested, it's not just regular Red Dye No. 40, they're using safer synthetic colorants, but it doesn't present the heavy metal issue that you and I talked about. And the reason is because they tested for years. 

Stacy Toth:
They tried to make a natural makeup line. And every time that they thought that they would get somewhere, and they'd send it off for testing, it would come back as unsafe. And you can look up, there's all kind of studies that show, that in makeup, it's actually often the more natural brands, versus the mainstream brands, that are higher in heavy metals, because they're using synthetic colorants, versus natural colorants, which almost always are contaminated with heavy metals.

Stacy Toth:
So there's a reason for everything, and that's important to me, but more than that, it's testing. And I just cannot speak highly enough. I've actually been to their facilities. I've seen the testing that they do. They put out a report every year, that shows all the things that they're doing, both as part of a B Corp, and also, as part of a company that just cares about health, all the different reports of things that they've done, and the testing, and all of that kind of stuff. So they're fully transparent, as part of being a B Corp.

Stacy Toth:
They're also Leaping Buddy certified for those that are concerned with animal testing, they don't do that, all that kind of stuff. So that is more important to me than someone telling me that something is natural, because that might not be actually what's best for my health.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and especially, I mean, to come full circle, at the beginning... A tomato is natural, but a tomato wrecks you? That's-

Stacy Toth:
I know!

Melanie Avalon:
So, okay. No, I'm really glad that we had that discussion. Because I think, even for me, when I first jumped into the natural world, it's like, "Oh, I want everything to be all natural, and everything must be something, that I know exactly what it is." Like, "Oh, that's coconut oil, I know what that is." 

Melanie Avalon:
But now, I am realizing it is, like we said with diet at the beginning, it's so complex, and so nuanced. It's really nice that Beautycounter does use the ingredients that they're finding and testing is nontoxic.

Melanie Avalon:
And then, on top of it, I think it makes the products actually work. And, as far as the makeup goes?

Stacy Toth:
Yes, yeah. Well, the other thing I would say, if someone really wants to look into this, how I research ingredients is through PubChem. So there's PubMed, which produces articles that you can read, or at least study. Sometimes, you can't fully access them, without being a professor or a doctor or someone that has full access. But in most cases, you can read the abstracts and the findings, and stuff like that.

Stacy Toth:
Then there's PubChem. And PubChem allows you to put in any chemical, or any, basically, ingredient that you would find, on a skin care, or a personal care product. And it will tell you all about it. It will tell you if it's been studied at all for safety, and what those results were, and it will give you a really neutral, scientific, analyzation of each of those things.

Stacy Toth:
And so, I'll give an example. There was a brand of perfume, very common in the community, that claimed it was all natural, and safe, and all of this kind of stuff, but it was using fragrance as an ingredient. And by our rule, I don't use anything that has fragrance an ingredient, because that could be anything. It's one of the number one things, if you were to ask me, like, "Okay, what should I avoid?" I would say, "Fragrance," because that's where the worst of the worst gets hidden by brands.

Stacy Toth:
So that was using fragrance as an ingredient, and I said to them, I'm like, "I'm not interested in your product, if you're listing fragrance as your ingredient." And they said, "Well, it is proprietary. We don't want to tell people the different kind of essential oils and different things that we're using. But because we know that this is your shtick, we'll send you a list of what's in."

Stacy Toth:
All of these other influencers and people in the beauty blogging space were all abuzz about this band, because, on its website, on all this stuff, it was, "We're all natural, and we don't use synthetic fragrance," and blah, blah, blah. But then, there it is, in the ingredient list, it was.

Stacy Toth:
So when they sent me over the ingredients, and I put them all into PubChem, almost all of them were great. And I was super, I was like, "Oh, this looks good, this looks good." And then, there were two that were super highly problematic. And the only way, I mean, one would have known that, is if they went and put every individual item into PubChem, and then came up with the results. 

Stacy Toth:
Because this brand wasn't an EWG, and they weren't disclosing their ingredients, and it was just, this is what we have to do as consumers. If nobody has a degree in this, nobody has time to do this, I mean, this is my job now. So I have time to do it, right? 

Stacy Toth:
But this isn't something that we can reasonably expect consumers to do, so that's why I like working with a brand that I can trust, because I know that they have standards, and they test, and they don't have to come back and double check every single thing to make sure. Because if it's not safe, they're not going to include it, at all.

Melanie Avalon:
I am really impressed that they sent you that list. Because I have contacted so many companies, and I always get the closed door.

Stacy Toth:
I think, probably for most people, they send them the list, and they're like, "Oh, they gave me the ingredients. They must be okay." But that's not me. 

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, okay.

Stacy Toth:
Nope.

Melanie Avalon:
Nope. [crosstalk 01:05:53].

Stacy Toth:
Going to research every single one.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember, I actually contacted one company. It was for a food item, not makeup, but I contacted them on two different occasions, and asked them what was in the "natural flavors" that was listed, and I got two completely separate answers, when I sent the two different e-mails. It's like, "Okay, that's awesome. That makes me feel confident."

Stacy Toth:
Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon:
I want to be really respectful of your time, so for listeners who would like to try out the Beautycounter products, do you have any favorites, or any recommendations, about where to start, both on the skin care and makeup side of things?

Stacy Toth:
Yeah, absolutely. So, the awesome thing is, October 7th of 2019, they launched their limited edition holiday items. And in those, there's usually really good deals. So, for example, one of the things that I would recommend to people is the charcoal mask, and the overnight resurfacing peel, and the cleansing balm, with enhanced lotus stem cells, called Lotus Glow Cleansing Balm. And that Vitamin C oil that I was talking about, which they call, the brightening oil.

Stacy Toth:
And all of those are in a, what's called the Counter Plus Favorites, or something like that. So normally, they would be over $200, but it's only $89 for the set of those four products. So, I would say, that would be my number one recommendation, just because people get the most bang for their buck, and those are all universal skin care treatments.

Stacy Toth:
So, as I talked earlier about wash, tone, moisturize, the fourth step is a treatment. So that's where you get things like a serum, or a peel, or an eye cream, or things that are targeted for skin issues that people might have. So I talk al to with people who want brighter skin, or people who have damage to their skin, either from acne scarring, or from too much sun exposure, or different things like that, and that's where the Vitamin C serum, and the overnight resurfacing peel, which as 15 botanical acids in it, eight of which are exfoliating to remove the things from your skin, and then, seven which soothe the skin.

Stacy Toth:
It's not actually going to make your stuff peel off like a chemical peel, but it's a natural exfoliating that you wear overnight. And then you wake up with brighter skin, and then it's actually helped reduce my acne, because it's a really great exfoliant, a gentle exfoliant, not like, plastic beads from the exfoliant. So that, I really recommend those four ingredients for all skin types.

Stacy Toth:
I'll say them again. So, the Lotus Glow Cleansing Balm, which is really great, with those lotus stem cells, for truly brightening the skin; the overnight resurfacing peel, which is an excellent exfoliator, to reduce damage to your skin; and that's basically taking off those damaged top layers of your skin. So what do you do after you use that peel is within five to 10 minutes, after it's settled on your skin, you want to put on a really good moisturizer, so that it kind of seals it in.

Stacy Toth:
And then, the brightening facial oil that I talked about, being really rich in the antioxidants from Vitamin C, and the charcoal mask. So, the other thing about the charcoal mask, which is, it uses activated charcoal as a detoxifying agent, and it also uses... I think it's pronounced [inaudible 01:09:18] clay, which is a particular kind of clay that's also detoxifying. 

Stacy Toth:
When you wear that mask, it pulls the oil and grime, and different things that are in your pores to the surface, so that you can then wash and exfoliate them. And again, after you use that mask, you're going to want to use the moisturizer to nourish your open pores that you just did all that effort, to get the junk out.

Stacy Toth:
Those are my favorite products, and the other thing is, I would say is, in the month of October, the mask, charcoal mask... I think it might be called the balancing mask, the Charcoal Balancing Mask, is a free welcome gift if someone joins their Loyalty Program, which is kind of like Amazon Prime. 

Stacy Toth:
It's $29 a year, but the mask is worth 49, so if that was something you were going to want to get, I would recommend getting it that way, just to save yourself some money. Then you also got free shipping, and 10%, and product credit back with that program, which is great, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Got you. Yeah, and then, on the makeup side of things, I've become obsessed with their mascara, and their eyeliner. And then, their lip glosses are beautiful.

Stacy Toth:
Their lip glosses were one of the things that brought me to Beautycounter. So there were three products, that were my, I call it, bacon. I used to be a vegetarian for seven years, and I called bacon the gateway drug. It's like, bacon lures in vegetarians the way that these products lured me into Beautycounter. 

Stacy Toth:
It was the body wash, I don't know if you've tried that, but I have been using castile soap for so long, that when I tried a body wash that actually smelled good and lathered, it felt so luxurious, after what I've been using for so long.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah.

Stacy Toth:
And then, it was the charcoal soap, which is, was just really great for my skin at the time, because I had so much acne, and it was really helpful, as I transitioned off coconut oil. And then, the lip gloss, the lip gloss was my, "Oh, if this is what clean ingredient lip gloss can be like, then I can deal with that." 

Stacy Toth:
And then, I'm actually known for my use of mascara. My lashes are my claim to fame, on my beauty blog perspective, and I swear by collagen, and the cleaner ingredient, mascara. That's what have made them so healthy and long and thick.

Stacy Toth:
Because, when you're not using junk on your face, it can be its best self. It will reveal itself.

Melanie Avalon:
Ah, I love that so much. And for listeners, so if you would to explore the beauty counter world, and get some of the products, I don't think you'll look back. I know I haven't. You can go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon, and if you use that link, something magical might happen after your first order!

Melanie Avalon:
So, a little special surprise, so definitely check that out. And Stacy, so, for listeners, Stacy is not... I mean, she's like a Wonder Woman, when it comes to makeup and skin care, and she knows all these things. But she really knows so much about so many topics, especially, like I said, with your other podcast, and all of your books. So what are the best ways for listeners to follow you, learn more about you and your work, get some more of your wisdom, how can they do that?

Stacy Toth:
I would love to welcome people to realeverything.com, where all of that stuff can be connected, so you can connect with me on social media. Or you can check out my books or e-books. Of course, you can find my books under my name, Stacy Toth, on Amazon. But you can find more about them on the blog. 

Stacy Toth:
All of our podcasts and show notes are on my blog as well. So, no matter what you're looking for, you can find it at realeverythinhg.com. And thank you so much for the nice compliment.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh no. I mean it, from the bottom of my heart, it's truly an honor to have you here. So, for listeners, I'll put links to, everything we discussed. I know we talked about a lot, but it will all be in the show notes. So just go to melanieavalon.com/skincare for those show notes, and again, if you'd like to check out those Beautycounter products, definitely use beautycounter.com/melanieavalon,  and something magical might happen after your first order!

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you again so much, Stacy. This has been absolutely wonderful. I'd love to connect with you in the future. Maybe we can have, in the future, another episode on a completely different topic, especially seeing how much we're so on the same page, with the science of things. When you were talking, there were so many tangents, I was like, "Nope, don't bring this up, because then we will not even..." 

Stacy Toth:
I told you, I'm long winded. You ask me a question, and there is, sometimes on our podcasts, we try to go rapid fire, where we try to get through a bunch of questions. And it does-

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm so bad at that. 

Stacy Toth:
No, and the absolute worst. My version of rapid fire is somebody else's version of answering a long question, so I appreciate your patience as I just blabbered on.

Melanie Avalon:
No, no, this is absolutely wonderful, and I definitely look forward to connecting with you more in the future. So thank so much.

Stacy Toth:
Thanks for having me.

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