The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #290 - Vince Ojeda

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is with a repeat guest, but not on this show. So I've actually had this guest on my other show, the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and this is about a topic I am so obsessed with and have been honestly for years and years.  It actually may be out of all the health stuff. It's one of the topics that I think I've been really interested in since the beginning of my more nuanced biohacking health journey. And that is the topic of food sensitivities. And one of the things about food sensitivities that I think is so confusing is there are so many different tests out there, which supposedly will tell you if you have food sensitivities or are reacting to certain foods. And there's also all these debates out there about whether or not they actually work. Are they actually showing true sensitivities? Are they actually just showing that you're eating the foods that it shows you're sensitive to? I've always had a lot of skepticism surrounding the whole thing. And I knew someday I would find a company that was hopefully doing exactly what I wanted with this and bringing some clarity. And it manifested in the incredible company called Victus 88. And friends, I am obsessed with this company. So basically, they don't just test, and we'll talk all about this in the episode, but they don't just test what people may think of with sensitivity tests, which are things like IGE and IGG. And again, we'll talk about this more. They look at four markers, IGE, IGG, IGG4, and complement C3D. And we're going to explain what that all means. But what this actually is going to do is show a much more nuanced approach to food sensitivities and actually show if you have developed tolerance to a food. So it actually can be possible that you have seemingly reactions or IGG reactions to food, but you've also developed tolerance. And on the flip side, you might not have seemingly that bad of a reaction, but you might have factors that are amplifying it, making it worse than it may seem on paper. So I'm obsessed with this company. My results were so, so fascinating. And I am here today with the co-founder and CEO, Vince Ojeda. And Vince has a really incredible story about his own health journey. And you know, what led to his passion with all of this. And I've gotten to know him over, it's been a while now. And he's just a really an incredible human being. I love what he's doing, Victus 88. I can't wait for you guys to hear all about this. And I have so many questions ready. So Vince, thank you so much for being here.

Vince Ojeda

Hi, thank you for having me again, Maloney. This is great.

Melanie Avalon

I remember the first time we met on a phone call and I was just so excited because literally this is something I've been looking for for so long.  I want to hear about your personal story, but do you have any thoughts about just what I was saying just now about how there are all these tests out there and it's very confusing and like not might not be doing what they say they're doing?

Vince Ojeda

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's probably one of the biggest issues in the industry right now are that the tests that are out there right now do not give you the whole picture of what you really need to be able to take action on what food sensitivity testing can really do for you. And I think that's what really sets Victus 88 apart.  Some of the other tests that are out there will look at one component or maybe two if you pay more, but you know, like you mentioned, ours looks at all four immune reactions and then we use all four of those numbers to calculate through an algorithm for you and we'll get all into that too. Yeah, that's the big issue right now is that there's a lot of confusion. People don't really feel empowered by their ability to get a test that will tell them everything they need to know in one result that is comprehensive and that they don't have to keep going back for more and more testing for and I think that's a big issue right now.

Melanie Avalon

That's something we should circle back to as well is is testing and retesting because I've, I've done one test with you guys. And I was just thinking before we started recording, I was like, I wonder if I should test again, although we can talk a little bit about the process and, you know, making changes and things like that.  And I have more, more nuanced questions. But going back to your personal story. So what is your personal story with all of this? I mean, it's really profound what you experience. So what's your story here? What led you to doing what you're doing today? Bye.

Vince Ojeda

It is. It is profound. And I think that that's why I am so passionate about this test and what we've been able to do with it. Because if you'll remember a couple of years ago, I had just turned 50 years old and I was your typical 50-year-old American male. I was overweight to the point where I had just been diagnosed with morbid obesity. I had hypertension, high blood pressure. I was pre-diabetic, bordering on diabetic. Now that I go back and look at my results, and now that I have a better understanding of what those results really meant, it was a little bit scary at the time because of the fact that I was not getting any younger and my health was definitely taking a turn for the worse.  I was well over 50 pounds overweight and a little bit scared and to the point of, here I am starting this health and wellness company and we're doing food sensitivity testing and we were so busy. I'm just being totally transparent here, totally honest here. We were so busy launching the test and getting the branding and going through all of the entrepreneurial things that you do when you're doing something like this that I had really neglected my health to the point where I hadn't even taken this test yet. The summer of 22, so two years ago, I was at a point where I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. A friend of mine said, why haven't you taken this test for yourself? You're talking about all the benefits and all the advantages that this test can give somebody. It hit me and so I immediately took the test. I got my results in September, so literally two months after my 50th birthday, I got my results. At that time, I decided to go all in and when I say all in, I went 100% with my most restrictive diet. We'll get into the differences there, but this is important for people to remember that when I went all in, I went 100% into my most restrictive diet and I did it for six months. That was a huge change for me because my lifestyle had never been able to account for anything like that that I had ever done in my life. After about a week, I felt different to the point where I was waking up earlier in the morning. I had more focus and energy. I had a craving for healthier foods. My cravings for the sugary stuff with gluten and everything else that I had to eliminate from my diet had already started going away. My results were incredible. After six months, I had lost 40 pounds. I made my way somehow back into the gym. Since then, just through the various changes of the last two years, I've lost 65 pounds. I am at 10% body fat. I'm 52 years old. I am healthier than I've ever been probably in my life. I run for fun. If you know me, that's really funny. I go to the gym regularly. I work outdoors regularly and my entire life and lifestyle have done a complete flip since the first results for my first test.

Melanie Avalon

That's crazy. And what's so interesting is a lot of companies I work with, it's often their health issue that leads to doing what they're doing, but it's so interesting that you are already doing the company, you know, and then you and then you tried it.  Wow. That's sweet. So the timeline of that was how long?

Vince Ojeda

Well, my, my first test was in September and then six months later I retested. So we're going to talk about that a little bit too.  I retested just to see what would happen. Cause when, when we talk about this test, just so you know, we're testing for immune reactions to 88 different food antigens, they're the 88 most common antigens that cause chronic inflammation in your body. So these are the most nauseous foods to your body. So it's personalized medicine. My first result, the reason I bring all that up, my first result, I had 23 of the 88 foods that were on my eliminate list and it was everything from egg yolk, egg white, gluten, barley hops, rye, a lot of the stuff I liked. Cause if you think about barley hops and rye, that's beer, that's all beer. Uh, so, you know, I made a lot of sacrifices in that first six months. So when I retested six months later, there were three foods on my eliminate list. So again, when you talk about doing an about phase and you talk about retesting the idea of this test, and this is very important for everyone to understand that the idea of this test is to give your gut a chance to heal so that you can reintroduce these foods that you want to reintroduce. Some of them you may not want to so that you can reintroduce those foods back into your daily life again, if you wish to.

Melanie Avalon

I already am wanting to go into really nuanced questions, so I'm going to stop myself so that we can provide some foundation here because I love talking about this and there's so many questions for you. So can you explain a little bit briefly just a foundational overview of, I think first, because I think the thing people are most familiar with is IgE, you know, associated often with allergic reactions and then IgG with sensitivities.  Can you just talk a little bit about those two and then the nuance that happens with IgG and how there's actually, you know, well, you test IgG4, but there's even, you know, what is there, one, two, three, and four? And, you know, like, what else is going on here? What is the role of these immune compounds?

Vince Ojeda

That's a great question. So the reason we test for the four immune reactions that we're talking about, so you mentioned a few of them. So we're actually testing for IgE, which is going to be your acute response to a food reaction. Oftentimes that's referred to as an allergic response.  So IgE is typically going to be your allergic response. The IgG, as you mentioned, is going to be a sensitivity response to a food or an additive. When I say additive, I'm talking about like black pepper, garlic, things like that. Those reactions take longer to build up, but they also last longer in your system. And those are the responses that can actually cause the chronic inflammation. The IgG4 response that we're looking at is important because you can have an allergic response to a food. But if you also have this IgG4 response, it can create tolerance for that food, meaning you're actually not allergic to that food. So we see a lot of what we refer to in the lab business as false positive results for patients who have had previous testing. They'll say, well, I'm allergic to shellfish. Well, first of all, let's test you for the different types of shellfish. Let's test you for lobster and shrimp and clam and oyster. Let's not just say shellfish in general, and then let's measure your protective IgG4 response to make sure that that is a true allergy. And oftentimes it's not.  And then finally, that fourth factor that we look at is a compliment factor called C3D. The reason we test for that is because if you have a sensitivity reaction to a food, if you have this C3D response at certain levels, it can cause an amplification of that sensitivity. Meaning, and I'm going to use a very simple number here, if I had a 50 on my gluten for sensitivity, but I also had the C3D response, that can multiply that 50 to a 5,000 or 50,000 actual numeric response, meaning it amplifies that sensitivity in my body. So all four of those immune responses have to be measured, then compiled in an algorithm that's proprietary. So we've created this algorithm and it's our secret sauce, if you will. Those numbers are all then put together in a formula to give you this result that we give you called the nutrition blueprint, which is personalized to your body's response to those four immune reactions for the 88 different foods.

Melanie Avalon

I think I asked you this last time, but I want to be super clear. And so to recap for listeners, so IGE is an acute allergic response. It's quick, it's fast.  IGG is this longer lasting more food sensitivity issue. So IGG4 creates tolerance for the IGE allergy response, not the IGG. And the C3D amplifies the IGG, not the IGE. There's not a compound that creates tolerance for IGG.

Vince Ojeda

not that is able to be tested for and quite honestly that IGG response for sensitivity is it when you measure that response it's very straightforward yeah so there's there's not a there's not a protective immunoglobulin for a sensitivity reaction like there is for the allergic reaction so so the IGG for another way of putting it Melanie is that the IGG for response blocks the allergic response so it's it's a protector it gets in front of that IGE and says no no no I'm not gonna let you affect this I'm not gonna let you affect it this way I'm gonna protect you and block the IGE potential whereas sensitivity doesn't have anything like that sensitivity on really on the flip side is it can be amplified by C3D which makes it 1,000 to 10,000 times worse than what you would expect from that sensitivity and I think just going back to that original theory or not theory going back to the original statement which is you have to have all four of these responses to get the full picture if you're only measuring for one or maybe two with another test you're not getting the entire picture of what your body is doing with each of these foods

Melanie Avalon

Yes, and IgG 1, 2, and 3, are they just part of the general IgG response?

Vince Ojeda

We don't even measure those because they really don't have an impact on the IgG4 is the blocking mechanism for IgE. The IgG1, 2, and 3 really have no impact on food allergies or sensitivity. So we don't even test for those.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, and so what happens, because as listeners know, I eat a lot of scallops.

Vince Ojeda

We test for that.

Melanie Avalon

My results on it are really interesting. So first question and the results, which by the way, listeners, when you get these results, it's the most, it's like Christmas, there's so much information. It is so fun.  I mean, if you're like me, it's fun in the IgE column, if it's blank, if it doesn't say low, moderate, or high, it's just blank. Does that mean it's below low? Does that mean it's like not present? Correct. Okay. So what's interesting with my scallops, for example, is there's nothing for IgE, but there is high IgG for, but since there's nothing for IgE, does that mean it, I mean, it's just kind of, I mean, well, I guess that's like super tolerance in a way, because I don't even have the IgE. So if you don't have any IgE, but you have the IgG for, what does that mean?

Vince Ojeda

Really the IGG-4, we refer to that as the good response because it's protecting you against any allergic response. So if you have a food that you have a high IGG-4 response, but you don't have any allergic response at all, it really doesn't help you or hurt you. Just like neutral.

Melanie Avalon

Yep. So it's interesting. So and then for the sensitivity, the IgG is low. The C 3d is also low. I know you and I have talked about this.  But what's interesting is that in the recommendations, like I have my you mentioned earlier, the elimination column and how you had how many in yours 2838. I had 2323 making up numbers here. Okay, 23. So you had 23 in your column. So in my eliminate column, I just have two. But there's this other column that we've talked about, which is remove at providers discretion. And that has two different ones for me. And ironically, one of them is scallops. And is that because and I think you and I talked about this, but is that because a typical practitioner might look at this result and see the high IgG four and think it means something even though it doesn't really.

Vince Ojeda

So the that column that you're referring to is we call it remove it provider discretion. So if you're not using one of our dietitians and you're showing this to your doctor or your provider of you know your nurse practitioner whoever we're letting them know that that that can be important.  So there is a condition called IgG4 related disease and that happens when you have an autoimmune disorder such as a thyroiditis or an eosinophilic esophagitis things like that that if you have one of those known autoimmune disorders and you're seeing high IgG4 responses those foods do need to be removed from your diet because they could be causing and maxing out your autoimmune responses as well. So I I've seen report after report where we have patients who have very normal looking IgE and IgG and you look at that you look at the IgG4 response on that column and they'll have you know 10, 15, 20, 25 foods listed in that one column and I automatically know the next question what autoimmune disorders have you been diagnosed with and nine times out of ten they've are they already know something else is going on there so that's why we put those in that remove it provider discretion column because the IgG4 related diseases can can be amplified by having IgG responses in your foods so that's where it can hurt you. you

Melanie Avalon

So I only have two foods in that column. I have ginger and scallops, which are one of the few foods I eat. So I eat like a ton of scallops and I eat a ton of ginger.  So the people who have the autoimmune issues, you said they normally, and I know you're not a doctor, we're not diagnosing or anything like that. So you're saying the people who have the autoimmune stuff, they normally have a lot more in that column or just a few.

Vince Ojeda

a lot more. Yep, it's almost predictive.  When I see a report with a whole lot of foods in that one column but everything else looks pretty normal, I already know that they've probably been diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder or they haven't and they should have been because that is a key indicator right there because when your IgG4 response is going that high for that many foods but there's no other surrounding conditions, you're not getting that allergic response or the sensitivity response that is just very typical of having some type of an autoimmune disorder. Now to your point, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a dietician, everything that I say is totally not medical advice but we know how to lead you in the right direction. We can get you there with this test and get you you know get you to the right people.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, this is so interesting. Now I'm gonna be haunted by why two of the foods that I eat in massive amounts are on that column.  Here's a question. So is there, from the body's perspective, so I understand that IgG4 creates this tolerance with the IgE allergy, is there realistically and practically essentially no difference between having an IgE reaction and having an IgE reaction with ample tolerance? And what I mean by that, does it just stop the signal from even happening in the first place or does it like start and then it stops it? Would it be more ideal to have no reaction compared to an IgE reaction but tolerance with it or is it pretty much the same thing?

Vince Ojeda

Typically, it's going to be the same thing. And I say typically because there's, there's never a one size fits all for what we're talking about here.  And I think one of the kind of the global things that we always talk about with our patients is every patient is different and you know, your body more than anyone else does. So you hear the story. We hear the stories time and time again of a patient who says, I've been to this doctor, this specialist, this GI, this, you know, allergist, and they just can't figure it out. And then they get this test and they implement the new diets that we give them and say, Hey, rotate these foods, eliminate these foods. These foods are safe for you. And they come back to us weeks or a few months later going, Oh my gosh, this changed everything for me. So to your point, there will be different reactions. There are certain foods that I know for a fact that when I eat them, I'm going to get a runny nose or my throat may get scratchy. That's an IgE response. Cause that's an immediate, that is considered an allergic response. We're not talking about anaphylactic shock. We're talking about these immediate things that you know, when you eat this food, you're going to have this thing happen, but I also know I'm tolerant. So typically it is a very quick response and then it's over because my IgG four kicks in again, in my mind, I'm watching these, you know, memory cells kick in and go attack the, you know, the IgE antibodies going, Hey, stop. Don't you can't, you can't do this. So that's the response for me may be different for the response from someone down the street from me. But the bottom line is you have to listen to your own body and you have, you've got a gut feeling for the foods that you're eating that are hurting you versus the ones that are not what this test does is it puts it all in perspective for you with the science of measuring immune responses and that proprietary algorithm that I talked about that then breaks those foods up into what you've already kind of talked about with your, your report. We call it the red light green light report, because it's three columns on a report that is green foods that are safe to eat yellow foods that you need to rotate because you had a response, but not a chronic response. And then of course the red foods, which are your eliminate column. And those are the foods that you need to temporary eliminate, let your gut heal and then reintroduce the foods that you want later, later on down the road.

Melanie Avalon

With that IgG, okay, two questions. Question one, is the IgE genetic?

Vince Ojeda

I will say in general, well, it's not even me. Study after study has been done on food sensitivities and allergies. And the best research that I can point to is that we don't really know where they come from. Is it genetic? Probably not.  The immune responses in your body are the cause of a lot of different things. It could be an autoimmune disorder, which we know probably are not genetic. They're probably environmental of some kind, but are they based on the foods you eat? So that could be a chicken and the egg thing, right? Sticking with the food theme. And the other thing is when you have these other factors like stress and oxidation and age, you know, the older you get, your body changes, things like that. So the key to remember with all of this really is not so much that it's genetic, but that you now have a tool in your toolbox that can help you control the way your body responds to foods by eliminating the foods that are actually hurting you and causing chronic inflammation.

Melanie Avalon

It's interesting, because I'm haunted by that genetic question. I was listening to, I don't have to look up the name, it was somebody, I was an allergist on Peter Atea. She was proposing that I don't know if you've come across this, that IgE complexes are only created when we're babies essentially. And so she was saying that it had to do, this was like really specific and I hadn't heard this before, but she was saying that it had to do with food proteins getting in through the skin, not through the gut when you're a baby, because the body identified it as a foreign invader rather than a food. And that's when it was creating IgE reactions.  I don't know if you've heard that before. I was like, that's really specific. I've not heard that before.

Vince Ojeda

I have. I have. And that goes to babies who, for no other reason, they're seeing babies with conditions like eczema. And if there is a family history of allergies, is it the family history that's causing that?  Or is it the presence of the foods? And so now we're going back to that biology 101 of, is it nature versus nurture? So honestly, I don't think that there is a hard and fast cut and dry rule. We actually do this testing for children, I should say, because we do have parents who are, you know, we have kids who have unexplained conditions and things that are going on that are most likely gut related. Now, the question is, is it genetic or is it something that we're introducing too early into that child's body, food wise, things like that, that are causing these responses? And the bottom line for us is regardless of the reason, at least let's do this test and figure out what we can do to help it or even prevent it down the road.

Melanie Avalon

going back to this analogy you were making of the immune system and the IgE and then the IgG4 coming in and kind of, you know, stopping them from freaking out. So that IgG4, is that something that our body starts to create with consistent exposure because it's learning that it's not something to freak out about after all?  So basically, can you slowly eat things that you might have an allergic response to and develop IgG4 or is it, do you not really have that power?

Vince Ojeda

Absolutely. You have that power. You know, there are, I won't name them by name, but there are food institutes that are pretty well known for doing this where they introduce hyper allergic foods into people's systems to help them build that tolerance. And they do it under a guided medical condition or, you know, environment where they, if something happens, they have help right there in case there is some type of a severe reaction.  That is their business model, which is introducing foods to generate that tolerant reaction so that the patient can then eat that food. Or it's typically used for patients who are younger, you know, kids, teenagers, things like that, that have severe reactions to, you know, you can't even be around a peanut. And so let's introduce these things into your body so that your reactions are generated so that you do have tolerance. And I have anecdotal evidence on this only because I have a very good friend whose daughter has done this for years. They've had very good success with it. And these are for the most severe of cases, obviously.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I actually I follow one of my friends on Instagram, I knew her from college, but she's been posting videos of her going through that whole process and it's actually it's really interesting to watch because it's like clearly a very, very stressful thing to go through. Like, I don't think I quite appreciated the potential like fear and anxiety surrounding all of it, like, you know, exposing yourself for these people who have like, you know, anaphylactic shock type reactions to foods having to have this small exposure.  It's like, I'm really grateful she's like sharing her journey with it. It's intense.

Vince Ojeda

And that's exactly the same that, you know, it's a, they're good friends of ours and they're documenting this on, you know, Instagram as well. And this is their child and you know, we love this child.  So we want her to be successful in it and same thing. It's like, every time they go out, it's like, okay, what are they going to do this time? So, but it's been very successful and I don't know the success rates. I'm not, that's not my expertise level, but yeah, you can definitely generate immune reactions in your body that to kind of train it, if you will, to, you know, help you get through those allergic reactions. Wow. It's a whole new world.

Melanie Avalon

another nuanced question about results and my results. What happens, what is the meaning if you have high C3D, which is the one that amplifies IgG, but no IgG? Does it just not matter then?

Vince Ojeda

Correct. So if you've got a higher compliment response, that C3D C3D response, but you're not, it's, there's nothing to amplify.  So if the IgG is not responding, then there's nothing to amplify. So you're, that's kind of, you're, you're kind of in a safe zone at that point.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Why would there even be C3D then? Like what's its purpose? Does it do other things?

Vince Ojeda

It's a very complex cycle. I mean, there are charts on, you know, in medical textbooks about the different C3, there's different varieties of C3 complement.  C3D specifically has been identified as the protein of the innate immune system that is activated, you know, when those sensitivity reactions are present.

Melanie Avalon

What's interesting about my results, I think the majority, a lot of the C3D where I have high C3D, but no IgG or low IgG, it is foods I eat, but I might just be finding patterns that aren't there.

Vince Ojeda

Well, the C3D will actually attach to the IgG. So if there's a low or no IgG response, there's nothing for it to attach to.  That attachment to the IgG, so the more you have, the more there is to attach, that's what's gonna cause that amplification reaction where you're gonna see the increased inflammation and those increased sensitivity symptoms, if you will, which typically would be chronic inflammation, which is really what we're trying to get at here. We wanna limit that, because that's what's killing us.

Melanie Avalon

Are all of these floating around all the time or are they created when you eat the food?

Vince Ojeda

it's it's likely both only because when you are when you're eating when you're ingesting the food your body is going so what we say all the time is 70 to 80 percent of your immune system is located in your gut so everything you eat or drink is going to have some type of an impact whether it's good or bad or indifferent those are the reactions that we're looking for because those are the reactions that your body is going to have every time you ingest that so if if these things are floating around in your system they're just waiting for that food to come in that's more of a memory response which i know we've talked about in the past you know the t-cells b-cells and you know they're they're there forever typically and technically you have you know this virus and you generate these memory cell responses they should be there forever and and that's how we get to the point where we can measure these things in in vitro meaning we're actually taking your sample your your finger stick blood sample because that's what we're using and we're adding it to the actual food in a little well plate and putting it through a machine to measure that response and we do that for each of those four responses so yes those those components have to be floating around and already there otherwise it won't get any response at all and there won't be anything to measure which is why you do see on your report hey i had no IgE reaction or i had no IgG reaction well that's because you don't have any of those antibodies floating around waiting to attack that food if you will

Melanie Avalon

It's really fascinating to me that I don't know. I guess I honestly expect it. I was really curious if the foods that I eat the most stuff like all the time. Because like I said, I eat a pretty limited diet and I eat a lot of whole foods, but it's all a lot of the same foods.  So I was wondering if they were all going to show me reacting to them or not. I find it interesting that it's not all the same. Like I thought it would have been the same. So for example, tons of cucumbers. It's a ridiculous amount of cucumbers and a ridiculous amount of blueberries. Cucumbers, I have no IgE response, no IgG for low IgG and no C3D. So they're on my green list. But then blueberries, I have low IgE, low IgG for but moderate IgG and then high C3D. So it put it on my rotate list. I actually only have one food. So on my results, I have no limitation. It's a lot. It's most of the foods. And then I have blueberries on rotate. And then I have pecan and soy on a lemonade, which I don't eat pecan or soy. And I have ginger and scallops on the provider's discretion, which we discussed was the whole thing with IgG for. I guess what I'm saying is that I find it really interesting that only certain foods that I eat a lot of had this reaction. I just wanted to like why that is. Like why did the body pick some and not the others? It bothers me.

Vince Ojeda

That's a great question. And if we knew that, then we would actually be able to do a more of a predictive test. And so in the medical industry and specifically in the laboratory industry, the traditional methods have always been centered around this idea of, let's detect a disease so that we can then treat it. So let's do a nasal swab for flu and detect it so that we can then prescribe the right medication to treat it.  We're moving, and especially in the health and wellness space, we're moving it away from that into the predict and prevent. So we're not at a position here in the food sensitivity and allergy testing business where we can, quote unquote, predict a specific food unbeknownst to, hey, let's not measure any immune reaction to just predict the foods. But we are in the business of preventing those reactions by saying, OK, let's test these foods against your sample so that we can tell you which foods are going to cause some type of inflammation in your body so that you can prevent yourself from eating those and then prevent that chronic inflammation that's going to ensue if you keep consuming that food over and over again.  And what I always say, too, is we don't know what we don't know. And that was the problem. I'll use myself as an example. And you could probably, my biggest example right now is I'm much like you. I eat 95% whole foods, almost no ultra processed foods anymore, except maybe the occasional protein bar, things like that. But the whole foods that I'm eating are eggs and, you know, oh my gosh, bananas, fruit, all that. If I eat one strawberry, one strawberry, I will have eczema on my elbows and behind my knees the next day. I already know it. That is the one food that I can absolutely predict because I know it's on my list and it's one of my few foods on my list. But every now and then, when I'm hanging out with my grandson and he's got strawberries, I'll eat one and go, dang it. I'm going to be itching tomorrow.  So it's that predictive on some of these results that you get. It's just like, that's it. That's what it was. So now we've gone from you don't know what you don't know to, OK, now you know. And I'd say the biggest issue that I had with my first report, Melanie, was seeing 23 foods on that red list going, how am I going to do this? These are all foods I like. And once that horse is out of the bar and it's really hard to put back, you know? So practically speaking, that's the beauty of this test, though, is that you, and you mentioned it before, it's a 14-page report. We don't have enough time to go through every page in the report. It's super comprehensive, and that's why we offer registered dietitians to work with patients and customers to help them understand everything and kind of guide them through that process.

Melanie Avalon

What's also interesting, so you have this knowledge about the strawberries, which presumably it sounds like that's an IgE reaction that you're having. For sure. Yeah. Because we've talked about developing tolerance or not with IgG4. The IgE, and I think I've talked about this with you before, so I have had an allergy IgE panel like from the doctor done, and it was probably a decade ago, it does not match this. Because at that time, I had, I mean, it didn't test that many foods. I tested like, probably 10. But I did have an IgE. At that time, I had an IgE response for sesame and wheat. And on this, I have both of them are there's nothing there.  Is it possible I lost or the IgE response went away?

Vince Ojeda

Absolutely. I mean, when you look at the example I used earlier of my two reports, and you're talking 10 years, mine were six months apart, that I lost all those responses. And I'll even, I'll blow your mind even more. Not only did I lose the IgE responses to a lot of those 23 foods, most of them I had built tolerance to. So my IgG4 was kicking in and creating tolerance because again, the idea is eliminate the foods. You don't have to do it for six months like I did. I think our providers usually recommend three to four months somewhere in there, but you eliminate those foods temporarily to give your gut a chance to heal. When your gut heals, your immune system, remember 70 to 80% of it's located in your gut, your immune system gets a chance to calm down, regroup. And maybe in the meantime, you'll do what I did and start exercising and maybe find a good probiotic that helps. And you know, some of these other things that you can do to help your gut health and to keep that healing process going. And that's the whole objective.  So not only to get rid of or to eliminate those IgE responses, but to build tolerance. And listen, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't know that was going to happen. It was a total shocker when I got that second report back that it was just night and day to see the response. Well, yeah, I had lost 40 pounds and improved my health, you know, tenfold over that six month period. And in the year and a half since then, it's gotten even better. So yeah, that's the whole idea is that your gut changes, your immune system changes based on the feedback that you're giving it. And that's the way it should work.

Melanie Avalon

Beneficial changes can happen with both the IgE and the IgG for losing this allergic reaction or gaining tolerance. Yeah, this is so empowering.  It's interesting, so what is the difference between gluten and wheat, people's reactions? Do they pretty much, do they normally line up or can they be different?

Vince Ojeda

they can be different. So gluten is in whole wheat. So let's remember that if you have a gluten reaction that we're going to preclude that from your diet, meaning we're going to eliminate from your diet.  If you have that gluten reaction, we're automatically going to put barley, rye, and whole wheat on that eliminate list because we consider those not we, but those are considered the gluten grains. However, wheat has other proteins that you could react to. So it's possible for you to come back positive for, for wheat, whole wheat, but not for gluten. So that they are two separate proteins. If you are positive for gluten, we're automatically going to take wheat out, but wheat has a totally different set of proteins that your body can react to so that you may be responding just to the whole wheat.

Melanie Avalon

Gotcha. It's funny because I remember when I first got that test 10 years ago, I had already gone gluten free probably, probably a year before or so. It didn't test for gluten, I don't think, but it showed that I had a wheat allergy and I was so excited because I was like, oh, now I, now it's official. I can actually avoid gluten.  Yeah, on here for gluten, I don't have any reaction and or for wheat. So much for my gluten card.

Vince Ojeda

My gluten reaction was off the charts. I mean, to the point where I don't look at all the reports, obviously that's not my role, but I had looked at enough of them by that point and one of our registered dieticians was even like, this is incredible your gluten reaction.  So when I eliminated gluten, I really haven't gone back to it every now and then I'll have something that I know has gluten in it. I don't react to it. I've actually created tolerance to gluten, but for other reasons that are just personal to me, I just have kept gluten pretty much eliminated from my diet.

Melanie Avalon

I continue to as well, even though I see I have no reaction now, I am not a fan of gluten. I do want to clarify because like we were talking about, there's so many pages and earlier I was saying that I had only one rotate and only to eliminate that. So that is the less restrictive diet.  So we can talk about these two reports that you get. In my more restrictive diet, for rotate, I have 20. And for the eliminate, I have nine. So this more restrictive versus less restrictive, what is going on there?

Vince Ojeda

So the less restrictive diet is going to take foods that have a high reactivity for IgE and IgG. So we're going to, we're going to rotate foods that have some of the moderate reactions. Again, let's go back to square one. These 88 antigens are tested against all four immune reactions and then these four immune reactions are calculated in an algorithm that will then kind of give these reports that say, okay, due to these calculations, this is considered a moderate reaction versus a high reaction. So without getting into all the specifics on the numbers, because it's very, very complex and I don't want to bore everybody, but these, the more moderate reactions of foods are going to go on your less restrictive diet.  The more restrictive diet is going to take a combination of high and moderate levels of reactions to the different components, to the different immune reactions. So meaning the intention is to give you a choice to say, okay, Melanie, you've got 20 foods on your most restrictive diet and you're sitting there telling, you're looking at that going, there's no way I can do this. This is just way too many foods for me to eliminate or rotate. It's just too confusing. Okay. Look at your less restrictive diet. Can you do that? Can you do those foods with rotate and eliminate? Is that more manageable? And we give those choices to the customer so that they can sit down with both of those diets. The first thing I tell people to do with all of these diets is to say, cross off the foods you don't even eat anyway. And you mentioned a couple, you're like, I don't eat pecans or soy anyway, so that doesn't even matter to me. Great. Cross those off the list. Now can you manage it? So there's a method to these two different diets, the less and more restrictive diet, and the intention is to give you a choice and to make it manageable for you. One of the most practical things that I and my wife did with this report was, because we both did the most restrictive diet, we took a screenshot of the report on our phones and we put them in a folder on our phone and we went grocery shopping. We could pull up our lists and say, okay, well you have chicken, and this is a real example, she had chicken on her report, but I had beef on mine. And so we wouldn't buy a four pack of chicken. We'd only get one or two because we're not all eating that chicken. So the point is there are practical ways to use these reports and to use these levels of restrictive diets to make it manageable for you. You don't have to go all in for six months like I did and go crazy with it. I did that very intentionally because I wanted to be the example of what could be done. And I think I've done a pretty good job of that.

Melanie Avalon

That makes it so much more approachable, especially if people are overwhelmed. Another question, in the rotate option, so there's the eliminate option red column where you remove it entirely, and then there's the rotate where you, it says rotate out of your diet for a period of 72 hours or reduce an overall intake. So what is the practical difference there between, so especially somebody like me, where I eat those blueberries, I eat pounds of blueberries every night? That's not an exaggeration.  So there would be a practical difference for me between eating pounds of blueberries every 72 hours versus just eating half of the blueberries every night. Is one more beneficial? I'm assuming going 72 hours would have a more profound effect, but I'm not sure.

Vince Ojeda

The reason we put foods on the rotate list is because those foods are causing a reaction, but it's not strong enough of a reaction to cause chronic inflammation, which is again that response to the food in your system. And that's the whole goal.  The whole goal is to eliminate or limit chronic inflammation in your body caused by foods, because if you keep reintroducing those blueberries at high levels, and you're not following that 72 hour rule, your, that chronic inflammation is building up and it's causing more and more of that inflammation to be created every time you ingest those blueberries. If you rotate those blueberries every 72 hours, every three days, then you're giving your gut a chance to calm down for that immune response to calm down. So that's not constantly reacting every night that you're eating that pound of blueberries. Now for practical purposes, I had a very hard time with this one because egg yolk and egg white were on my rotate list. And when I really sat down to think about it at the time, now this is two years ago because I was not a healthy eater. I thought, you know what? We only really eat eggs on the weekends anyway, when we make it wake up and make a big breakfast of pancake and eggs and sausage or, you know, whatever. And so to me at the time, that was not a big deal.  If I retested right now and egg whites and egg yolks are on my rotate list, I'd have a really hard time with that Melanie, because your blueberries are my eggs. I eat five eggs every morning after I work out. So that would be tough. So, so I empathize with that.

Melanie Avalon

What's interesting is the blueberries. So on the less restrictive diet, they're on the rotate column. On the more restrictive diet, they're on the eliminate column.

Vince Ojeda

It kicks over. Yep. So your moderate reaction is going to be on that rotate list on the less restrictive. But when we get to the more restrictive, it says, hey, you need to eliminate this because that moderate reaction can really start adding up here.  That happens quite a bit with foods that are causing a moderate reaction. It's your choice. We don't sit there and say, you have to do this restrictive diet or that restricted diet. It's really up to you. I tell people in all practicality, this is what I tell people. If you've got 10 foods on your list and you just cannot eliminate one of them, but you can eliminate the other nine, you're 90% of the way there. Look at how that's empowered you to make a 90% change in your life. Where else can you do that overnight just by not going to the grocery store and buying that one that by eliminating nine of those 10 foods. That's huge progress. You should be proud of that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, no, I love that. I see the date now.  So I did this almost 11 months ago. I would be really curious because since I took this, I started having a few nights each week without blueberries. I wonder if that was enough to change my response.

Vince Ojeda

It could have been. I mean, yeah. And the other thing is, you know, one of the things we talk about a lot with our, with our customers is you've got to listen to your body. You know, I used my example earlier, strawberries, where it's an obvious, I know what's going to happen. And it happens every time.  If you're not noticing anything, there is such a thing called, we call it quiet inflammation. It's inflammation that's happening in your body that number one, you don't really feel the effect of because it is so quiet that it's just there. Your body is chronically inflamed, but you don't have any outward symptomatic changes that are obviously like my strawberry example. I know I'm going to get eczema eczema on my elbows, but there's also quiet inflammation that's causing things, which is the second category, which is you're so used to those changes that you don't even notice it anymore. And one of the best examples I have of that is that I had frequent headaches so often that I was just used to it. And that when I eliminated those foods from my first report, it took about six or seven days before I started noticing. I'm like, I don't have headaches anymore.  I'm clearer. I'm more focused. I have more energy. I get up earlier in the morning. So a lot of those inflammatory changes that are happening, you may not even be noticing them anymore because you're so used to it. And I'm not saying that's happening with you in blueberries, but there could be things that when you eliminate certain foods, your body does change pretty quickly. And you're like, whoa, that was the blueberries. So it does happen.

Melanie Avalon

I believe it 100%. And yeah, you should hear the narrations in my head.  I'm like, well, maybe the anti inflammatory compounds of blueberries are, you know, combating any inflammatory immune response. I'm living in denial here. Blueberries are very anti inflammatory and good for the brain.

Vince Ojeda

A really good friend of mine who is peak physical condition. The guy is just a specimen. He rocks the gym. He eats well. He does everything right.  And we argued back and forth about this test for about a year. And he finally ordered one and took the test because I kept telling him. I say, look, just because a food is quote unquote healthy, healthy doesn't mean that that food is healthy for your body. Every body is going to respond differently to different types of foods. And that's why we test for apples and blueberries and all the quote unquote healthy foods.  We talk a lot about carnivore diet, too. And people, I'm carnivore. I'm in good shape. That's great. But what if you're eating all this beef or chicken or pork and one of these foods is causing tons of chronic inflammation in your body you don't even know about? So we're helping people now zero in and drill down on their dietary choices to the point where they're improving upon their improvements.  And I will tell you, we have had professional football players, baseball players, hockey players, you name it, professional athletes taking this test to get them into an even better physical condition than where they're at now. That's how impactful this test can be.

Melanie Avalon

And then I love that you include at the end, it looks like we've talked about this offline, my app foods and skyd. At the end, you have a list of the biogenic compounds.  So you show if these foods are high in other things that may be creating problems for people. It's like oxalates, amines, glutamate, histamine, lectins, fog maps, nitrates, phenols, salicylates. Is there a list on here of, well, A, will you be adding any other foods to this?

Vince Ojeda

that is a good question so we're highly regulated by in the laboratory industry we're highly regulated by the federal government with licensure and and being inspected and things like that as you would expect you know it is a medical test so right now we don't have any plans to add foods if anything we're going to be changing the methodology which will make it better for higher volume throughput because we're seeing such an increase in demand right now for this type of testing with the focus I think the focus is moving more toward health and wellness testing and more toward empowering people to take control of things that they can you know control what you can control right and what you put into your body is one of those things that you can control and if you can eliminate foods that are causing chronic inflammation which causes all the chronic disease this is step one toward doing that so we're seeing an increase in that in demand which means we need to be able to increase our our volume our throughput to be able to meet that need and that's the thing we're focused on right now the other part of the answer to your question about adding foods is we're testing for 88 food antigens those are the foods that are most likely to cause some type of chronic inflammation in the body also those 88 foods represent food families of 382 foods so when you get your results you can also go to our website and download our gut guide and the last several pages of that gut guide it will show you in the left hand column the food we tested for the food family and then all of the foods associated with that food in the same food family which really helps you explode this to say okay if you really want to get technical with this and you eliminated this food but you didn't really feel any different what other foods are in that family that you can eliminate that may have an impact on the way you're feeling and so we've given that information out that that comes that's actually free you can download that now but that that's a very helpful perspective because it's 88 food antigens that represent 382 different foods

Melanie Avalon

Oh, okay. I need to look at that. Although, honestly, all of my diet is covered by this test with the exception of two foods.  I ate a lot of turmeric, which is not on here. And then actually everything else might... Oh, I eat a lot of barramundi, which is a very specific type of fish. But you have a lot of fish on here. There's cod, which I eat, salmon, other shellfish, shrimp,

Vince Ojeda

Yep. I think we've got Slounder.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, cilantro, I know cilantro.

Vince Ojeda

Yeah, we have Flounder, Halibut. I mean, yeah, we have several.  It's so interesting, there was just a big study that came out by the NIH on Alzheimer's disease and how fish is the number one healthy food that can help prevent cognitive decline. And we were looking at that study and comparing it to the fish that we test for. And every single fish that we test for was considered in that quote unquote Alzheimer's diet that is helping people with lesser symptoms and dementia and cognitive decline as well. So just an interesting side story there that we were just looking at that the other day.

Melanie Avalon

Does that mean then that the fish most associated with cognitive decline prevention are the fish that most likely spark an immune response? Not necessarily.  Cause you're testing, you know, cause aren't you testing the foods that most likely spark an immune response?

Vince Ojeda

We are, we're testing the foods that spark an immune response, correct. And I think what this study specifically did was they were looking at which foods are most associated with lessening the cognitive decline that's associated with Alzheimer's and dementia.  And so that study came into play because fish was number one on the list and then vegetables were number two. And then all other foods, you think of avocado and olive oil and all the other Mediterranean diet type of foods, those were all like distant third, fourth, fifth, sixth. But it was fish and vegetables that had the biggest impact on lessening that decline.

Melanie Avalon

I wonder, I actually just interviewed the researchers behind the mind diet. I wonder if that, I wonder if that was their research.  That's the most studied diet for preventing cognitive decline. I've been wanting to interview them for years and it was so fascinating reading their book.

Vince Ojeda

I have not listened to that. Is that out yet? Did you publish that one yet?

Melanie Avalon

Yes, it did. It came out a few weeks ago. I can send it to you. It was really good. I'm so excited to interview them.

Vince Ojeda

You're all my favorites. I can download it too. So I just didn't see that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was excited to interview them. Yeah, well, this this is just so incredibly, I think now listeners can understand why I am obsessed with this because it is so empowering. And it's just such a clear picture that I personally have been searching for for so long.  So if listeners are interested, okay, well, first of all, so the process, how does it work? Do you? How do you take the blood test? What is the whole process like? And the timeline?

Vince Ojeda

Yep.  No.  Okay.  So the way that the process works is you go to the website, which is Victus88.com and you put in your information. So it's basically your name, email, mailing address, phone number, put in the discount code, Melanie Avalon, cause that that's going to save you $55. So you want to do that for sure. We FedEx you the kit, the kit has everything you need in it. It is a at home, do it yourself, finger stick kit. You will collect the kit at home. If you're in a state that requires a provider order, we will provide that for you. There's no charge for that because we have all of our dieticians in house and we have doctors that cover 47 States in the country and you'll collect your sample at home with a finger stick. You'll send it back to us. We, it's a FedEx prepaid envelope. You just put it right back into the envelope, follow the instructions that we send with it. And within a couple of weeks, you'll have this 14 page comprehensive report that outlines all of those 88 foods, all four immune reactions for each one. You're less restrictive. You're more restrictive diet, the immune index, all the other parts of the report that we talked about earlier and that's it. It's a, it's a very simple process. Very seamless.

Melanie Avalon

I will say I was a little bit intimidated by the blood drawing, even though I do.  So I prick myself all the time for things like, you know, blood sugar control or things like that.  I did it though.  And the instructions, I actually, I think this was the one where I had epiphanies about doing blood tests like this.  Does it say things like don't use the first few blood drops and like it has like, it has like a, has instructions for how to, you know, get the blood out?  Basically, I didn't realize you could actually get to a point where it's just like free flowing blood coming out of your finger.  I learned things in the process.  I was like, oh, okay, this is doable.  I thought this was going to be a big struggle.

Vince Ojeda

I think that, you know, that, that's an important point though, because a lot of our, a lot of our customers and, and we deal with a lot of, you know, patients in our medical practice as well. That is always one of the big questions, which is, does it hurt? And it, it's really painless.  It is a finger stick, it's, it's the smallest lance. It's almost a pediatric lancet that we use for this and the device that you collect the sample into each, it looks like little, we call it a clamshell device and you pop it open and there's these little four Q-tip things that pop up again, you can go to the website and see all this. It's all visualized on there. Each of those little Q-tip devices has what's called a capillary tube inside of it. So that when you put your finger on that and you're squeezing the blood out of it, it's actually helping draw the blood out without puncturing your finger or anything like that. It's helping that blood fill that tip so that those tips feel pretty quick. I mean, we've, we've seen such a huge success over this. The very first time that you and I spoke, it was only available with a blood draw. That was really tough because you had to go find a lab or go to your doctor's. This is an at-home do-it-yourself finger stick, super easy, super painless, and it gets all the sample onto those tips pretty quick so that you can close it up, put the label back on and ship it back.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I will say so because I opened it when I got it and I was like, oh, that's that's a lot of blood And I was like I might go in and get a blood job But I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna try it and see if I can do it and I did it So it is doable for sure I didn't know that about the capillary.  That's really cool that it helps so so yes, so listeners I Cannot recommend this test enough. It is one of the most eye-opening and lightning things I have ever done in this this world with testing and learning about your own health and especially With something that is so important, which is your diet and food So go to victis88. That's v-i-c-t-u-s 88.com and use the coupon code melanie avilon to get 55 off Yeah Whoo, this is exciting Um, was there anything else you wanted to touch on vince with all of this and thank you so much for what you're doing The company and your knowledge surrounding it. It's really really appreciated

Vince Ojeda

Well, again, I think that's why I'm so passionate about this test and what it can do for people because we've both used the word empower a couple times during this podcast. And to me, that's the main thing is give yourself the information that you need to make yourself more healthy and more well. And our mission statement is we just want people to live a healthier, happier, longer life by avoiding chronic disease. And we live by that mission statement.  Everything we do here at the lab and with our registered dietitians and with our patient interactions is making sure that people can live that out. I would say that it is the starting point for almost any impact you want to have on your overall health and wellness. If your gut health is not right, then a lot of your other conditions and other issues that you're dealing with are never going to be right. There are certain things you can do with supplements and working out and exercise that are very good. Stop drinking, stop smoking, all that stuff. That's great. But you've got to look at every single thing you put into your body. What's one of the most common things we do every day besides sleep, eat. And so if you can control what you can control with the stuff that you're putting in your body, that's where this test is going to have the biggest impact on your daily life. Yes.

Melanie Avalon

friends, the get this now. It's kind of like I talk about how I often talk about how I wish everybody at some point could do a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor, just because it would open up the world's eyes and really change our metabolic health. I would like to amend that to say if everybody could do a CGM and do this test. Like, can you just imagine the changes that could happen for people?  Yeah, this is incredible. Well, thank you so much, Vince. I appreciate you so, so much. So again, listeners, Victis88.com with the coupon code Melanie Avalon, we'll get you $55 off. And Vince, the last question that I asked every guest on this show, and since you've listened to it before, you probably know what's coming. But what is something that you're grateful for?

Vince Ojeda

I am absolutely the most grateful for the opportunity to help other people. There is literally nothing else that has driven me.  I've had businesses, I've had very successful companies, I've been entrepreneurial almost my whole life. What we're doing right now is having the most impact on people's day-to-day lives and that is what I'm most grateful for.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Vince. I am so grateful for you as well. This was so incredible.  And listeners, if you take this test, definitely let me know what you find, share in my Facebook group, all the things I would love to hear from you. And yeah, this was amazing. I will have to talk to you. I can't wait to talk to you in the future.

Vince Ojeda

Thank you so much, Melanie. I love this. I love everything you're doing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. You're the best. Talk to you later.

Vince Ojeda

Okay, bye. Bye.