The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode - #363 - Ben Azadi

TRANSCRIPT

Ben Azadi
necessarily want higher ketones. You want efficient ketones. Fasting is my favorite tool in the shed. It's absolutely my favorite biohack.

It's the greatest way to harness the innate intelligence within ourselves. It's one of the best ways to remove the interference and let your body heal itself. So is it the seed oils? Is it the processed wheat? Is it the processed artificial dyes in there? Or is it a combination of everything? It's probably a combination of everything. But the fact of the matter is this. We are eating more processed seed oils than ever before. We are also sicker than ever before.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Oh my goodness, friends. It is always the best time having Ben Azati on the show, and I cannot recommend his revised version of his incredible book, Keto Flex Enough. Go get it now. Ben is a legend when it comes to all things keto, fasting, weight loss, and living your best, healthiest, purpose-driven life. In today's episode, we talk about so many things, including the fact that we have a lot of people including an alternative approach to long-term keto, where instead you go through four phases, adapt, fast, phase, and flex. The difference between becoming fat versus keto adapted, why you shouldn't necessarily freak out if you see your ketone levels dropping, whether or not you should actually be afraid of seed oils, the benefits of the carnivore diet, and what the studies actually show, the different fatty acids in your cellular membranes, whether or not GLP1 agonists are a good thing, and so much more. I cannot recommend this book enough.

Get it now, and you can get complimentary bonuses with the purchase of Keto Flex when you get it at ketoflexbook.com. The show notes for today's episode will be at melanieavilon.com slash ketoflex. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love, and then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post, and again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. All right, I think that's all the things. As a brief reminder, you can get complimentary bonuses when you purchase ketoflex at ketoflexbook.com. And now, without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with my dear friend, Benazotti.

Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is with truly one of my favorite humans on the planet, a repeat guest. He has been on the show multiple times. He is a dear friend, and he talks about all the topics that I know you guys are completely obsessed with and that which changed so many people's lives. Also, he loves the killers, so that's all good like me. I'm here with Benazotti. So he most recently came on the show for his New York Times bestselling book, Metabolic Freedom, which was absolutely incredible. So listeners definitely check that out. And then he's been on the show before.

Melanie Avalon
I think actually, I think when you first came on, I probably had read the original version of ketoflex. I'm assuming it was a while ago.

Ben Azadi
I remember that, yes.

Melanie Avalon
It's funny. So I started reading. So listeners, Ben is back for his incredible new book. It's a it's a revised version. So it's keto flex revised the advanced guy to metabolic flexibility, fat burning, and hormone health for everybody at every stage. And so Ben, when I got the galley, I didn't like put two and two together, I didn't originally remember that it was revised. And so I was reading it. And I was like, I feel like I've read this before, but I'm not sure. So I was having a lot of deja vu. And then my sister was like, Oh, it's a revised version.

I was like, okay, I am not going crazy. But okay, so I have so many questions, excited to dive in. You've, you've shared your story at length before on this show. Most listeners probably are familiar with your work. But for those who are not, maybe a brief recap of your personal history, and in particular, you know, having just become recently, like relatively recently, a New York Times bestseller, what made you decide to do a revised version of your original book rather than another book, even though I know you have more stuff in the pipeline. So what led to that decision?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, yeah, I love it. So thanks for having me back. Good morning to you. It's a joke for us because it's in the afternoon for you, but it's morning for you.

Melanie Avalon
Because really, it really is.

Ben Azadi
To give your audience just a quick recap of my pain to purpose and why I do what I do. I used to be very unhealthy for most of my life. I was obese physically, obese mentally for 20 plus years. My mom worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken when I was a kid. So I ate a lot of Kentucky Fried Chicken. I had a lot of fast food. I had a lot of bad behaviors as a kid to drugs and video games and toxic relationships. And it showed up in my physical appearance, but also in my mental health. So I dealt with a lot of depression and suicidal thoughts. And back in 2007, I was at my lowest point, 250 pounds, obese, looking for ways to end my life. And the only reason I didn't go through with that is because I kept thinking about my mother. I kept thinking about the devastation that I would have caused her if I took my life. So that was the only thread that I was hanging on.

And it forced me to really figure things out. So I started to become fascinated with health and nutrition and fitness. So I started moving my body. I started studying mindset books like Dr. Wayne Dyer and Bob Proctor. I started eating real food and I was getting momentum and I started to feel good. Weight was coming off. I was having more energy. And I went through this incredible transformation where I lost 80 pounds in nine months. I went from 34% body fat at my highest to 6% body fat at my lowest. And I achieved this physical six pack, which was like a unicorn. It was like a dream that I always had as a kid. And more important than the physical six pack was the mental six pack that I achieved and what it did for my mental health. That was 18 years ago now, Melanie. And ever since then, I've been now in this health space for many years. I was a personal trainer. I owned a CrossFit gym. And then I transitioned in 2018 fully online to podcasts and YouTube and book writing. And that's where I started writing these books like Metabolic Freedom, which is amazing. It hit the New York Times list. It's helping so many people. And this new book, KetoFlex, revised. And to answer your question, the reason why I revised KetoFlex, because to your point, we did talk about KetoFlex, the original one, many years ago. It came out in 2021. I self-published it. And then once Metabolic Freedom released and it was really successful, we have sold over 100,000 copies in less than a year of the release. Hey House, my publisher was really happy. And they said, hey, we want to purchase the rights to KetoFlex. And we want you to revise it at the same time. And then we want to republish it. So last summer, I worked on revising the entire book. It's about 70% updated, which is pretty good for a revision. Oh, wow. Yeah. And then it's coming out July 21. It's going to be out into the world. I'm really happy with the book. The book, what makes it different from before is, number one, science is always updating and changing. So there's newer research on Keto and fasting, even carnivore. And then also, there is more of a custom plan in it. Because before, it was somewhat customized. This one's fully customized, where there's an entire chapter on women with a menstrual cycle.

Ben Azadi
How do you do Keto? How do you do fasting? Here's the blueprint.

Women who are postmenopausal, what about you? Here's your blueprint. Men, how do you do it? And then I also have taken 10,000-plus individuals through my online programs, which has this four-pillar system that's in the book. And I've gotten so much feedback from those students. I use that feedback to help write the book. Some of the challenges that kept coming up, I wrote into the book in terms of a troubleshooting chapter with what to do if you experience XYZ on Keto and fasting. What if you get nauseous and get loose duals in diarrhea? What do you do? Here's what I have found to work. What if you don't have a gallbladder? How do you do Keto? Here is what I have found that has worked. What if you consistently have this dawn phenomenon where you have high morning blood sugar? Here's what I have found that works. So it goes through every area that you might struggle with. And it gives you the solution, along with that four-pillar framework. And then it's a customized plan that gets you into a customized version on how to do it. So I'm really excited about the book. I didn't plan on rewriting it. But Hey House inspired me to do so. And I'm glad I'm able to talk about it with you today.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I love all of it so much. And that reminds me, I actually had a similar, I totally forgot that with my book, I self-published it originally and then got a publisher and did a revised version.

For me, it was really exciting because it was really nice to see how far you've come to have that milestone of revisiting something you wrote at one point in your life and then fast forward and now you're doing it with this more dream situation with the publisher and such. At least for me, it was just a really nice, it was a nice reflective moment for me.

Ben Azadi
It's super cool. I love that you've done it as well.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, and yes, everything so that you touched on I was blown away by all the information here like it is the the go to guide for, you know, like you said, like all the troubleshooting that you might encounter actual, easily to follow plans, which I have a question about the plans. And I loved the women's section, of course, that was amazing.

Okay, so so many questions. So I'll start with the plan question. So there are four and we talked about this, I'm sure when you came on the first time, but you have your your four pillars. So adapt, fast phase and flex. So would love to give listeners if you could give listeners a brief overview of the purpose of those phases. Have those phases changed much or at all? I have a question about the specific plans, but just the phases. So what is the what is the purpose of the phases?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, I'd love to answer that. You know, I was just thinking, I like to make jokes, so I was thinking of some funny stuff as you were talking. I was thinking that, what if all my answers were like 30 seconds long? Like, how frustrating would that be for you?

I'm sure you've had interviews like that, where you're like, you're expecting five minute answer and it's like 30 seconds, and then you're like, oh, okay, I'm not gonna do that too.

Melanie Avalon
It goes both ways. Then there's the ones where they like, it's the whole podcast is one answer. And you're like, okay, this was great.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, exactly. Hopefully, hopefully I could find the sweet spot here. So the the four pillars is, as you mentioned, adapt fast phase flex. So adapt means get fat adapted. 93% of Americans are, they're not fat adapted, they're sugar burners, their metabolism is stuck burning sugar and glucose, which means they're relying on food for short term energy. And that is not long lasting. So what happens is they'll eat a high carbohydrate breakfast, their energy levels will crash, two to three hours later, they'll seek out a snack, yogurt, flavored yogurt, protein bar, granola, whatever it is, they'll get a short burst of energy, it'll crash, they'll get more energy after their high carb lunch, it'll crash, they'll have their fourth cup of coffee in the afternoon with another snack. So they're essentially running on sugar for fuel. And what I teach them in that first pillar is to become fat adapted, where we lower inflammation, we lower insulin and it allows the body to tap into stored fat for energy, you start producing ketones that those ketones feel the brain, which prevents you from having those fluctuations in energy. It also fulfills the brain's desire of having an energy source so it doesn't send the body signals to go get food and to go get carbohydrates. So that is the first pillar adapt.

Then once you've accomplished that, which is just seven days, by the way, then you transition to the second pillar, which is fast, and this is something you love, which is fasting, intermittent fasting. And we gently ease into intermittent fasting and we start creating a fasting schedule for you. But the fasting schedule is constantly changing throughout that fast pillar because I want the body to adapt so you're not hitting a plateau, just like every great personal trainer understands your workout needs to be varied. It's the same thing that I look at when it comes to fasting. So it eases you into fasting and it consistently changes that schedule. So that's the fast pillar.

Once you've graduated that, you're on day 22 now and then day 22, you begin your phase pillar and that's going to run all the way to day 45. The phase pillar phase, the chapter title is called toxin terminator, meaning you're getting rid of anti-nutrients, plant toxins for the duration of pillar three, the phase pillar, you're phasing out these anti-nutrients. And that's where we incorporate different levels of the carnivore diet. There's the extreme version for somebody who has severe autoimmune disease and leaky gut, which is like beef salt and just beef tallow. And then there's different variations, which opens it up to more foods and flexibility. So you kind of choose which one you think works best for you, but we would remove these anti-nutrients, which restores that gut lining and seals that gut lining. So it helps with things like leaky gut indigestion, digestive issues, autoimmune. Then you graduate that, Melanie, and you work your way into the flex pillar. And that's where it gets customized because that's where men do it differently than women and women who have menstrual cycle do it differently than women in postmenopausal years.

Ben Azadi
And that is the flex pillar. And what I love about the flex pillar is that it makes keto sustainable because I'm not a fan of long-term continuous ketosis.

I'm more of a fan of metabolic flexibility and flexing in and out of ketosis, which is the premise behind keto flex. So 45 days to achieve that metabolic flexibility, 45 days to enter that keto flex pillar, that's all outlined in the book for anybody who reads it or listens to the book.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, amazing. So a huge, huge question I have here because, as you know, I also host the intermittent fasting podcast. And so I've been doing that since 2017. So it's been years and years of people writing in telling about their experience with keto, with fasting, with hurdles, with what works for them, which what doesn't work for them. And the one thing I've seen is that it seems like different things work for different people.

So I'm so curious how you developed this, like the days, how to implement it, the order, like, why do you find fasting before the carnivore phase? Like, you know, why is that order better than carnivore before fasting? And do you find this works for most people? Yeah, just how did you develop it? I'm really, really fascinated by that.

Ben Azadi
Yeah. How many episodes have you done if you combine all of your podcasts?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, goodness. That's a good question.

I think there's like, actually, I can tell you really quickly. Let's see. So intermittent fasting 481. And then this show, but we've recorded like three months out, but this show is also in the 400s, I think of 362. So whatever that adds up to.

Ben Azadi
Wow. So almost 800 episodes. That's really rare. That's awesome. Melanie, good job. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. You've done, how many have you done of your podcast?

Ben Azadi
a little over 1,300.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, we're OGs.

Ben Azadi
We are, we are OGs, and it's really inspiring because most podcast hosts don't get past 90% of them don't get past 10 episodes and we're way beyond that, so it's super cool.

But you are really an OG in the 2017, it's like that was the time to start a podcast for sure.

Melanie Avalon
I know, it was the time. I'm like really grateful. When did you start yours?

Ben Azadi
2019. So two years out for you. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's when I started this one, actually.

Ben Azadi
Ah, okay, got it. So to answer your question, the reason why it's set up that way. Now, can you do carnivore in combination with fasting or skip fasting? Yeah, you can, absolutely. It's not gonna be a big issue there, but what is important is to get fat adapted before. Carnivore before fasting, because what happens is, for example, fasting. If you go into longer fasts, 18 hours, 24 hours plus, and you're a sugar burner, it's not gonna be the most enjoyable experience because you're gonna probably experience cravings and you're just gonna maybe have energy fluctuations throughout the fast. So that doesn't mean you have to be keto before you do fasting, but some variation of lowering your carbs and eliminating snacks just to get somewhat fat adapted is going to help during the fasting part.

Now, the reason why I like adding in the carnivore after fasting is because I didn't wanna do too many things all at once. I wanted the body to have some time to adapt. So first it's adapting to the changes in carbohydrates by going from burning sugar to burning fat. Then it's adapting to meal timing, which is the fasting part. Then you've mastered that. After that, then it's adapting to the removal of anti-nutrient. So I wanted to kind of split it up versus adding too much in one pillar. So that's the reason why I outlined it that way. It's the reason why it's 45 days versus like 21 days. I wanted to give it enough time to allow that adaptation to occur because to your point, not everybody experiences the same thing. Everybody's different. I've seen that with the students that I've taken through the protocols and I have found that when we split it up into these different segments, for most people it works really efficiently where there's not too many symptoms popping up as they make the transitions from one pillar to the next pillar.

Melanie Avalon
awesome. I'm really curious because you mentioned that you, you know, updated the research looked at the studies, all the things. I feel like especially looking back in time, I definitely thought so fasting I knew because it probably first became popular. I don't know, when I first started talking about it, I feel like was like the beginning of when people started talking about it, you know, 2015 ish.

And I was really happy to see now there's just studies everywhere about it, time restricted eating, intermittent fasting, like all the time. Carnivore, I feel, I feel like it never actually really took off from the scientific literature like I thought it was going to, especially for like the amount of people that seem to do really well on it. So when you were, but I also haven't sat down and like revisited the studies recently, when you were looking at the scientific literature on everything, did you find what you were looking for? As far as like new studies out there? Or was it? What was that experience like?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, it's a really great question. So for the carnivore piece of this equation, you're right, there's not a lot of data on carnivore, especially the long term. Now there's a lot of anecdotal evidence, a ton of it. And I even have a lot from the students that I've taken through carnivore. And I even have my own anecdotal experiences that I've done. And like several different testing, day one versus day 70, or day 90 on carnivore. So I've looked at different things I've done. And what I did look at for that carnivore chapter is the red meat studies, because I wanted to dispel that myth that red meat causes cancer and red meat's not healthy for you. And what I did is I dug into the research and I showed, look, all these studies you're seeing, these articles that are popping up about red meat causing cancer, they're all correlation studies. They're not causative. And a lot of them are based off of food surveys and people having to recall what they ate. And typically when somebody says, when somebody has a higher risk of cancer because they say they ate more red meat in their food survey, they're typically eating that red meat in the form of like a burger with the bun and the french fries. So there's so many variables there. And I made that clear in that chapter, that red meat without the carbohydrates, without the french fries, cooked in seed oils is absolutely anti-inflammatory. It's great for you. And don't be scared by the headlines that are out there.

So it was hard to find long term studies on carnivore. But that's why that pillar is very short lived. I'm not telling people to do carnivore long term. I'm telling them to do it just for days 22 to 45. Let's see how you feel. I represent or I present, excuse me, four different levels to carnivore. Level four is the more most flexible version where it's all animal products. Plus you could have some like mushrooms and avocado and like primal kitchen dressing. So depending on how you want to do it, each level is going to benefit you. And then for the fasting piece, yeah, you're right. You know, 2014 is when I got into fasting and keto very beginning. There was not a lot of studies. I remember posting, maybe this happened to you. I remember posting on Facebook about fasting in 2014, like, I'm doing a 24 hour fast today or I just finished 48 hour fasting or hey, anybody out there practicing fasting and I used to get so much hate on my, from my Facebook friends, like, oh my gosh, that is so harmful. You are creating an eating disorder. You are promoting an eating disorder and it was just not understood at all. Did you get any of those comments back in the day?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, all the time. Yes, yes, yes.

It's honestly, it's like part of the reason I wrote a book was because I was just tired of having to like explain myself all the time. So I was like, I just want to have a book and be like, you can read this.

Ben Azadi
Smart. It's very smart. I'm sure you still get those comments this day. Not as much because now fasting is understood as a very powerful tool in the medical literature.

New England Journal of Medicine, I mean, Harvard and all these major nature magazine, all these studies, these journals I'm trying to say is they're showing the benefits of time restricted feeding. It's absolutely incredible. Fasting is my favorite tool in the shed. It's absolutely my favorite biohack. It's the greatest way to harness the innate intelligence within ourselves. It's one of the best ways to remove the interference and let your body heal itself. So I love fasting. I feel best when I'm fasted. It's incredible for energy production. It's incredible for gut healing. It's incredible for cancer prevention. It's incredible for BDNF production, which helps with like creativity. It's amazing for dopamine resets. And I could go deeper into those benefits if you want, but I love fasting just like you. And it's such a great tool. And the research is out there and it's coming out every year. And it's surprising because you can't really put fasting in a medication. So there's not going to be a lot of incentive or motivation to want to do all these studies, but there is some out there. And I put the most powerful ones in the book in chapter two of KetoFlex.

Melanie Avalon
And you've mentioned so many keywords. I'm like, oh, I want to ask about this and that and that to comment on I think you I'm just brainstorming right now because on the intermittent fasting podcast, we normally do listener q&a. But sometimes we just do a topic. And now I'm realizing I want to do an episode on pet peeves because some of the things you mentioned.

So it drives me crazy. Two things, the healthy user bias. So like you're mentioning the studies on carnivore and how it's, you know, the problems with meat are typically correlational or epidemiological, not causational. So I think the healthy user bias is a huge thing. And then also drives me up the wall. Like why is a cheeseburger labeled as a meat product when it is literally also like bread and cheese and meat like I just don't understand or like pizza or you know, it's it just drives me drives me up the wall.

Ben Azadi
It's because it helps them get their message across with the conclusion of the study. That's why it's their agenda behind it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm actually I'm really surprised that the meat industry has not funded a lot of carnivore studies. It seems like that would be great for them, you know?

Ben Azadi
Right? Yeah, they totally should. I agree.

Melanie Avalon
It seems like an opportunity there. Okay, so a few different things really quickly because you mentioned in the phases becoming fat adapted and something you talk in the book is the difference between being fat adapted and being keto adapted.

So what is the difference there and could somebody be successful and actually never become keto adapted and just be fat adapted?

Ben Azadi
Yes, they can, to answer the latter question. So the difference between fat adaptation and keto adaptation, this is a really important nuance. I'm glad you brought it up because I didn't understand this nuance back when I was doing ketone, teaching it in 2014 through like 2018. I didn't really understand this.

So fat adaptation is what I explained where you're going from burning sugar to burning fat, which essentially means your body is producing ketones. You verify that by testing your blood ketones. And if it says 0.5 or higher, millimoles per liter, which is what it's testing, you are now fat adapted. You're breaking down fat. You're producing ketones. This is not the same thing as keto adaptation. So fat adaptation, you could achieve seven days, sometimes it'll take a little longer, 14 days. The keto adaptation takes a little bit longer. This is now where your cells and your mitochondria are so efficient at using those ketones. And that is the ultimate goal, we become keto adapted because once those cells are just sucking up those ketones and using it efficiently, that's where your benefits really start to enhance.

And talking to students over the years, I asked them questions on their progress as they're doing keto. And they typically share with me, four weeks in, six weeks in, a couple months in, Ben, like I noticed that I was experiencing benefits as I got fat adapted, but now this week, I've noticed like it's a different level. Like my mental clarity has enhanced, my mood is just top notch, I'm losing more weight. That's usually a sign that your cells are now keto adapted. And what you're gonna see, which is interesting, if you're testing blood ketones, you're actually going to see less ketones on that device. And that might sound like a bad thing because a lot of people who do keto are looking for more ketones in their blood. You don't necessarily want higher ketones, you want efficient ketones. So in the beginning, as your fat adapted, once you hit that 0.5, that'll go up to 1.5 to 2.5, you might see it over three. That means your body is just, your cells are not using those ketones as efficiently. Once you're keto adapted, then the blood levels go down. And that's actually a good thing because now your mitochondria are really using them efficiently. Now, do you have to get keto adapted to experience the benefits? That was the question. No, you don't. You could do the things you wanna do to get fat adapted and get those benefits and you're still gonna benefit. But if you wanna take it to the next level, then I would recommend doing it for long enough, like my 45 day plan in the book, to get keto adapted to feel what that feels like. It's actually a really, really great experience. So that is a difference there between the fat adaptation and the keto adaptation.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Yeah, that's definitely been a running theme talking about the the measuring of the ketones and you know Not not chasing the ketones.

So here's another another huge question I was actually talking about this last night with one of my friends who he doesn't do it anymore But he had one of the top actually I guess it was in the diet book category on Amazon I think it was like the number one for a while had like 10,000 reviews. But in any case, so he was in the psychological coaching for weight loss business And I thought about this because you were mentioning we don't really have fasting in a pill Like we can't put it into a pill Although I do have a theory of how we could but also go back to that but the closest that we come to that in a way, so The GLP one agonist that we have and ozimpic and all the things some include tide People are now I mean more easily like just they're just not eating Um with those so I have a few a few different questions here one the thing I was talking with my friend about last night was how he has majorly pivoted in his industry because He was saying that these drugs have just killed the weight loss industry because people are finally just losing weight on their own I'm really curious. Have you seen in your specific population where it's not just about About weight loss. It's coming from the more of a health perspective and interest in keto and interest in food quality Have you seen a decrease in the audience size or the people who are engaging because of those pharmaceuticals?

Ben Azadi
Really great question. Now, there's some nuance here with my answer because I have not seen that with my audiences. They've continued to grow. I've been blessed to grow the podcast, the YouTube, the books, but I have seen it happen across the board in terms of other people in the fat loss space.

Yes. So let's unpack that, right? GLP-1 drugs, Ozempic and many others, they will help you lose weight for the most part. Most people will lose weight on those drugs. The question is, do you want to lose weight or do you want to lose fat because there's a difference? And the answer is you want to lose fat because when you lose weight, a portion of that could be muscle. And a good percentage of these individuals on these GLP-1 drugs, they're losing weight and they're losing muscle. 30%, 40% muscle. What happens is over time, you lose the weight and then all of a sudden, well, there has to come a point where you get off these drugs. Maybe you don't, but maybe you stay on, but you've lost the muscle and it makes it even more difficult now to keep the weight off because muscle mass is so important for insulin sensitivity, for metabolic rate, for longevity. I'm not a fan of these GLP-1 drugs. Now there are always exceptions to what I'm saying here. If somebody is overweight, obese, completely frustrated and lost, they don't know where to start and they need something to kickstart them and give them momentum. And that thing is Ozempic, great. But I don't want them to stay on it forever. I want them to focus on strength training. I want them to focus on the lifestyle changes at the same time. But let's face it, most people don't do it that way. They are doing it a different way. They're just taking because they want a shortcut and yes, to answer your question, we're seeing that the fat loss industry in the holistic way is losing a lot of viewers and listeners and readers because of the GLP-1 drugs. But it's not the best option. It really is not the best option out there. And it's very difficult to get enough protein when you are on these drugs. It's very difficult to eat enough. It's just another form of caloric restriction. It's focusing on the symptom. And I've said this on your podcast before, Melanie, we don't have a weight problem. We have a weight symptom. We need to focus on hormones and inflammation. GLP-1 drugs are not changing your insulin signaling. They're not changing how much muscle mass you have in a positive way. It's changing in a negative way. We want to make the lifestyle changes. And I know that's not the message people want to hear. They want to hear the quick fix. Just take the injection and you're going to lose weight because you're going to be less hungry. But your gut can produce its own GLP-1 drugs. I'm putting that in quotation marks. It can produce its own cholecystokinin, leptin, peptide, YY, from your lifestyle changes. And it's a much better way to go about it because it's sustainable. It's not something where you're getting rapid weight loss and you're losing fat with lifestyle changes, not just weight and muscle.

Ben Azadi
So I like to teach that to my audience and my audience resonates with that. I explain the difference between losing weight and losing fat. And then the last thing here is the premise is wrong. When you go about your health journey with a focus on weight loss, with a focus on GLP-1 drugs, your premise is wrong because your premise is I need to lose weight or I need to lose weight to get healthy. That is not how it works.

You don't lose weight to get healthy. You get healthy to lose weight. There's a huge difference there. So caloric restriction, GLP-1 drugs, these are all chasing symptoms. They're not the root cause, they're not sustainable. So my message will be the same. It's this what I just shared with you today and my audience is resonating with that. My job is to inspire them to take ownership and responsibility to make those lifestyle changes. I'm so blessed to see my YouTube channel, which is my biggest platform, grow with people who feel the same way. I read the comments. One thing that we did, Melanie, this is super cool, you don't know about this, but my team downloaded the last two years' worth of comments on my YouTube videos and they fed it into chatGBT and asked chat to calculate based off of the comments from what people commented on how much weight they've lost from my videos. Can you calculate the total amount of weight loss from my YouTube videos in the last two years? And the amount was over one million pounds of fat loss from just the YouTube videos, which is not from Ozempic, not from GLP-1 drugs. So I'll continue to have that stance. It works, what I teach works and it works long-term and it puts you at the front of the seat, the driver's seat because you're getting to the root cause not focusing on the symptom.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Was that just from people, the literal comments or did it impute like based on the percent of people commenting and then fill in like that probably means these other people lost it as well?

Do you know?

Ben Azadi
No, the literal comments, only specifically what people shared. Hey, I lost 40 pounds for watching your videos since September. Only the literal comments.

Melanie Avalon
Which means it's probably way more than that than if because, you know, not everybody's commenting. So, oh my goodness, that is so cool.

Ben Azadi
Very cool. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
and congrats to all the people losing the weight.

Okay, another controversial topic, and you mentioned it very briefly, the seed oils. I actually have a kind of a tangent question about this. Actually, I have a few questions. So one is I'm haunted by the seed oils because I have on people on the show who say the complete, like completely opposite things. Maybe not about the processed seed oils, but in general, just the concept of seed oils. So people like you, Kate Shanahan, a lot of people are talking about the dangers of them. And then I'll have people on who will have entire analyses of, in particular, like omega-6 fatty acids, different seed origins of such, and how it's actually beneficial and that data is just not there, is what they say. So one question is, when you approach the literature, is it clear for you, how do you deal with any potential cognitive bias since you're so passionate? Because we all have this. So in general, how do you deal with that with any research that you look at? And then I have a random tangent rabbit hole question about it, but yeah. So just briefly, what do you feel like the literature actually says?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, let's get into it. So there's two parts to look at here. It's what the research shows and it's also what your eyes see. So I'll unpack both and explain what I mean by the latter. First of all, I'll make it clear that seed oils, Omega-6 fats are very healthy for you when they are not processed. They are extremely healthy. I'm a big fan of unprocessed seed oils. I take these seed oils like phosphotidylcholine. I'll take organic sunflower oil. I'll take organic sesame oil. I'm a big fan of unprocessed Omega-6 fats. It's when they're processed that makes them inflammatory.

And most of the seed oils out there are the processed version. Now the studies, what's really frustrating, as you know, Melanie, man, you could cherry pick data to make your point with pretty much any study out there. And it's hard because it confuses us, it confuses the general population. And you could make your point with so many different studies because there's so many studies out there. But let's use the eye test, which is going back to the second point I wanted to make, the eye test. Okay, if we just did some research to look at the processing of canola oil and we watched how it's processed, or we read how it's processed, then we could think to ourselves, does that look like a healthy thing to consume? Because it's processed like an industrial product. It's high heat, detergents, chemical agents, plastic bottle. I mean, does that look like something that you want to put into your body? For me, the answer is no.

But when we look at the processing, which is very minimal, of olive oil, there's really not much going on. You're just pressing down the olives and you're getting the oil, right? So there's just, that's the eye test for me. Like I want to just use what I see as clearly a healthier way to process something, which is the olive oil. You know, when it comes to the seed oil conversation, it's tricky because the studies, as I mentioned, you could cherry pick. But number two, a lot of the times when people are consuming processed seed oils, they're consuming it from processed foods. So is it the seed oils? Is it the processed wheat? Is it the processed artificial dyes in there? Or is it a combination of everything? It's probably a combination of everything. But the fact of the matter is this, we are eating more processed seed oils than ever before.

We are also sicker than ever before. Is that causation? No. Is it a strong correlation? Yeah. But to me, it doesn't pass my eye test. Like if I'm looking at the way canola oil is processed, it looks like an industrial process. And if we go down the lens of Dr. Kate Shanahan, who is the pioneer talking about seed oils, she breaks it down the best. She talks about the chemical structure of these fats and how they're polyunsaturated fats, which means they have many double bonds.

Ben Azadi
That's what the word poly means. And the more double bonds a fat has, the more unstable it is, the more reactive it is to oxygen pressure and heat. So then when it's processed with oxygen pressure and heat, it goes rancid and then we cook in it and then we recook in it and then we fry it over and over and over and it's not healthy to do that.

And a lot of people who have been on your podcast, who are on other podcasts, talking about the health benefits of seed oils and they reference studies, we need to distinguish whether those studies are looking at the processed seed oils or the organic cold press unprocessed varieties, because if it's the latter, I agree with them, healthy, great. It builds up your cell membranes, eat them, consume them, but if it's the processed version, it's a different story. So I don't know if that made more confusion for you in your audience, but that's the way I see it these days.

Melanie Avalon
No, I'm on a very similar page and I was actually talking with my co-host about this the other day, kind of like we were talking about not attaching morality to food. So not feeling like you're a good or bad person based on what you're eating.

And I was just making the argument as well though that like so many of these foods, I don't even consider them food. Like you were mentioning like the eye test and like seeing it produced like is that something to me to me I'm like this is like a it's like a chemical like it's not even like a food. So it's almost not even for me on the proverbial table of a discussion of if it's a good or bad food because I don't even consider it like a food if that makes sense.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, they're like, good point. They're like food-like substances. That's what they are. So the eye test is probably the best thing here.

Melanie Avalon
I like the eye test. So my rabbit tangential question from it is, so you do have a very comprehensive nine important blood tests that people should check and the optimal ranges for them. So listeners definitely get the book for that.

Actually, wait, quick question about that. Is that all new? Was that in the original version? And is there a reason that it's nine? Were you like wanting to add more, wanting to add less on the fence about any of them?

Ben Azadi
It was that was not in the original version that's new to this version. I wanted to have enough that you could see enough data, especially as you're tracking it progressively, but not too much where it might be overwhelming or difficult to do.

So I kind of sat there thinking, OK, what are those nine? What are those nine that I think would really be good to track? And those were the nine that I came up with, which a few of them were like A1C, fasting insulin, some inflammatory markers like homocysteine and some lipids, but not total cholesterol, the actual real lipids that matter. So that's kind of my viewpoint of it. I wanted to have some labs in there that are important, but not too much. And I also, as you mentioned, break down. There's a difference between your standard reference range that you see on your lab report versus a functional, healthy, thriving range. And I give the ranges for both so they can kind of see that. And I recommend not required, but I recommend doing that beginning, doing it at the end and kind of seeing the change that you made with those labs. I think it's super cool to see that.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And again, so friends get keto flex because it's all in there. It's an epic resource for that.

So my my tangent rabbit hole question about it is, I actually just got back my most recent so true diagnostic, they have a, they have like a true age, I think is what they call it, which is like your biological age. And then they have a true health report, which is the it was my first time getting the true health report. And it's shockingly long in everything that it tells you. But one of the things that tells you, and I don't know if you have thoughts, comments or experiences on this. So if you don't know, worries, but they do have a fats and cellular membrane section. So they show you like, you're okay, I'm just I have it in front of me. So they show your omega three, your DHA, your DPA, your EPA, your omega six, your LA, your PUFA, your MUFA, your SFA, or short chain fatty acid, sorry, saturated fatty acids, and then actually some more that I probably I'm gonna mispronounce if I say them, like fossil, fossil idol, choline, I can say, let's see, phosphoglycerides, and then show my lens. Regardless, they don't actually give you the numbers, which is driving me up the wall, they just show you the person like where you fall in the percent.

My questions are, have you tested your, have you tested this where you get like your omega threes and your, your omega sixes and your PUFAs and your MUFAs? Have you tested that for yourself?

Ben Azadi
I have. I have. It's been a while since I've done it. I think the last time that I did, it was a Genova, it was a C15 test.

I'm actually pulling it up here in the background. It was a C15 test. This one did only C15 and it was giving me a reference range of it. When you say that it doesn't give you the numbers, are you looking for like the ratios of like Omega 6 to Omega 3? Is that what you mean?

Melanie Avalon
So the way they report it is they, every single, I wish I could like show you a picture, I could text it to you. I'm gonna text it to you so you can understand what I'm looking at. It's like a, for listeners, it's like zero to 100. I think that's the general population.

And then they plop you on that. And depending on where the gray is, depends on if it's better to be, depends on if it's better to be like in the middle or higher or lower. I was just kind of bummed because I mostly eat seafood and chicken and meat. And I felt like my, I was like, why is my omega-3 so low? But then why am I like so high in DHA and DPA and EPA? So that's weird. And then like, omega sick, like PUFAs were in the middle, MUFAs though were like shockingly low. I was just curious if you had any thoughts on these, these blood tests where they're looking at these sorts of things, especially given the whole seed oil topic.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, send it to me so I can look at it now, but okay, I got it. I got it here. So let's see. Let me look at this.

Melanie Avalon
so you can see like how they.

Ben Azadi
I see it's giving you a percentage of a different range. Yeah, your moofas are low. Short chain fatty acids are somewhat low.

Melanie Avalon
So interesting to me that I seem to be primarily PUFA driven.

Ben Azadi
But here's the thing, it's not telling you if these are processed poofas. It's just saying like linoleic acid, you're in the middle.

Melanie Avalon
which I'm assuming they're not because I eat zero.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, so exactly. So I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

What I would do, I would put this into chat GBT and ask it to give me a ratio of a mega six to a mega three and let me know what my overall ratio is. And ideally you want it, you want that around four to one. So that's what I would do. I'd put this in the chat and ask it to give you that ratio.

Melanie Avalon
It's a good idea, we love chat. But yeah, I was looking and I was like, what am I like all poof-less? And I've been doing like poof-a depletion, what?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, but if you're not doing processed fats, even though you have, you know, it says 90, what does it say? 62% PUFA, 52% linoleic acid.

I mean, if it's not processed, I wouldn't be concerned about it. But again, I would put it in the chat and ask for that ratio of omega six to omega three overall with this.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Here's a little fun question.

So I love this. You have a really fascinating section. I think probably mostly new. The section where you tell the history of fasting, was that updated or new?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, that was updated too.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, would you go on a locust fast?

Ben Azadi
Hahaha, what was that, water, honey?

Melanie Avalon
What's interesting is you made the case that, I think it was like, yeah, like locust. Kind of keto. Yeah, that it would be keto.

And so kind of leads to my joke, but my question, which is can you be keto and have like a small amount of like honey or carbs? Like what do you find with that as far as like carbon take and people being keto?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, yeah, great, great question. And it really, yes, the answer is you can have some honey, you can even have some fruit and even some carbs. It's very different depending on the person, right? The more metabolically flexible you are, the more honey you could get away with, the more blueberries and fruit you could get away with and still be in ketosis, the more muscle mass you have as well, the more active you are. So there's, you know, for like Ben Greenfield, for example, I would hypothesize that he could have 80 to 100 grams of carbs per day and still be in ketosis because he's Ben Greenfield. He's active and muscular and a freak. I say that in a respectful, good way. So it depends on that, your activity level, your muscle mass, but in general, you could still have a little bit of honey.

And one of the things I talk about in the book is some of the sleep challenges that could happen when you transition from sugar burning to fat burning. And I actually recommend a little bit of honey right before bed. And even if it knocks you out of ketosis, it'll help with sleep. But if it's just a teaspoon of raw honey, it should not knock you out of ketosis.

If you time it around a walk, it should not knock you out. So keto is not about going zero carb, it's not carnivore. You could still get away with some fruit, still get away with some carbs, even a little bit of honey. And the more you do it, the more metabolically flexible you are, the more wiggle room you have. So don't look at it. I'm not talking to email any, but the audience, don't look at it like you have to be so restricted and you have to avoid all fruit, all carbs, all honey. There's definitely room and you have to find what that threshold is for you.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome awesome awesome. Yeah, and I'll give a shout out. I love Manuka honey. Do you ever have Manuka?

Ben Azadi
I love Manuka, yes.

Melanie Avalon
So medicinal as well, so we actually have an overlap something you mentioned don't get it anymore. But it's interesting because I think we had opposite experiences, which unless I'm misremembering, but I think this resolved on keto for you.

It actually started when I went on keto, which is in the past I've had. Is it Ray knows or Renaud's? I don't know how you say it, right?

Ben Azadi
Ray nods.

Melanie Avalon
Raynaud's yeah, interestingly, well, I didn't realize that that I guess that's an autoimmune condition.

Yeah, I I used to my first one keto I actually started getting that I don't know if that's I don't know like I don't know if it was related to keto But you said yours resolved when you went on keto did it

Ben Azadi
It wasn't necessarily keto, it was the carnivore part that helped with it, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
So do you think you were reacting? Did you figure out what you were reacting to? Do you know?

Ben Azadi
Yeah, so I'm not surprised that it flared up with keto, especially with, I'm not sure if you were doing like a lot of like almonds on keto, were you?

Melanie Avalon
This was way back in the day, interestingly, because I've realized that I've, for so long, I have attributed it to keto in my head. Also though, it was during, it was my keto, but pre-paleo phase, so I was eating, I don't know, it wasn't like all whole foods based, but I wasn't eating a lot of nuts. It was mostly like meat and fats, but I was having like keto, sugar-free flavors and, you know, I had a lot of like chemically stuff.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, like processed keto food is what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, that could trigger it, the change alone, and going to keto is a stressor. And that could have triggered it as well. For me, it was the antineutrients in almonds and the oxalates in almonds. And I was doing a lot of that. And that would flare up my Reynauds.

Blood sugar spikes before keto would flare up the Reynauds. But even on keto, with the high oxalate, high antineutrient foods, it also triggered Reynaud flare-ups. But carnivore has really helped with that. At the end of the day, even more than carnivore has been just lowering my toxicity load, like getting heavy metals out of my body, getting mold out of my body in combination with the clean eating has really helped with that. And I don't know if you've tried this. How active is your Reynauds these days? Do you still get flare-ups?

Melanie Avalon
So again, and it could be a correlation of timing. Ever since I added carbs back, I don't think I've had it since. I don't think. But it could have been that I also cleaned up my diet around the same time. I'm not sure.

But yeah, I haven't had it. I haven't had it since a long time, over a decade.

Ben Azadi
That's fantastic. Now, you haven't had a flare up in a long time, which is a good sign that you're getting healthier.

I love that. Now, are your toes and feet still cold from time to time, from the rain odds?

Melanie Avalon
probably, but not egregiously. So not to the point where it becomes too noticeable for me.

Ben Azadi
Okay, cool. But you're not getting the flare-ups where it turns white and purple and it's like, oh my gosh.

Melanie Avalon
No, when it first happened, do you remember? I don't know if you, I remember when it first happened, I was like, am I dying? I was like, is my hand gonna fall off?

Ben Azadi
It's so not a good experience, like I'm running hot water on my fingers, like what's going on, get the blood flow back.

Something else that's helped with the Raynauds, besides carnivore, besides removing anti-nutrients and the heavy metal mold toxicity part is actually cold exposure, but intentional cold exposure. A lot of people with Raynauds believe they can't do cold exposure like a cold plunge because it's gonna flare it up. But when you go into it intentionally by, let's say, 65 degrees in the plunge, which is not that cold, but you go into it, let's say you do 15 seconds and then you look at your fingers and toes, okay, there's no flare up, good, okay, then the next time go 30 seconds. And then as you, or let's say you do flare up, okay, then you do five seconds instead of 15 seconds, but you keep doing that and you start building up a tolerance to the cold, that actually helps to improve your flare ups over time. So intentional cold exposure, whether it's with a plunge or like holding ice in your hands for a short period of time could actually make you more resilient to the Raynauds. It's really fascinating.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm gonna have to start because when I do cryotherapy every day I have gloves on maybe for like a brief moment I'll take them out of the gloves I'll get in trouble but

Ben Azadi
I've never done cryo, so I don't know, maybe not with cryo, but with a cold plunge, yes, that could be okay.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. We are running up on time. I am really curious, was there anything that you really changed your mind on the most or at all in the Revive's version?

Ben Azadi
Protein. I didn't emphasize protein too much in the first book and I do in the revision, especially during pillars two, three, and four. And the reason is because I'm a big fan of essential amino acids and big fan of lean muscle mass. And I used to think too much protein would create gluconeogenesis and raise glucose, bump down ketones, not good. And I didn't really see that to be the case. So I've changed my mind about that.

So the protein part has changed tremendously. And then the carnivore piece as well as a major player in the pillars, at least a variation of the carnivore piece. And that wasn't there in the first version of the book. So yeah, protein and carnivore are both something that I've changed my mind on that are more featured in the book. There are other things, but those are the two things that first came to mind when you asked the question.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, again, I cannot recommend this book enough. So friends, go get it now.

And you guys are doing complimentary bonuses with a purchase. So if you go to ketoflexbook.com, that's where people can find the bonuses.

Is that correct?

Ben Azadi
That's right, Melanie. Yeah, we have a bunch of bonuses and the book is coming out July 21st.

It's available paperback Kindle. And then if you like listening to books, I narrated the entire audio. Yes, you like listening to books.

Melanie Avalon
How was narrating it?

Ben Azadi
that's gonna be on Spotify and Audible. And what I did, Melanie, at the end of every chapter, I added some coaching sessions. So I added in some more content to the audio book. So you cannot get that in the actual book because it's only in the audio version.

But any format gets you the bonuses and it's over at ketoflexbook.com.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

So friends, go get that now. Amazing. Okay, Ben, this has been incredible. And you might remember this from the past podcast. But the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because you and I are equally obsessed with vitamin G gratitude. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Ben Azadi
Love it, love it so much. I mean, I'm grateful just for the ability to have great gratitude. But my health is the first thing that comes to mind. It's been the last few weeks with the promotion of this book. A lot of content every day, several interviews and combine that with my own podcast and my own YouTube show. And it's a lot like today, YouTube video interview, interview, interview, interview. And if it wasn't for my health, I would not be able to show up with full energy, full personality. I would have felt depleted. So I'm grateful for my health, my detoxing liver, my filtering kidneys, my blood that oxygenates my cells. I'm grateful for my brain that produces amazing chemicals and dopamine. So I'm grateful for my health to be able to do the things that I wanna do to reach the amount of people that I wanna reach.

So that is my vitamin G. And of course I'm grateful for you and our friendship and relationship. I love that we love The Killers. We were just in Austin at Dave's event and we were talking about The Killers. Did you see my recent post with my studio and the photos of Brendan Flowers?

Melanie Avalon
Oh wait, okay, I saw the studio. I need to look again. Okay, you got the photos up.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, yeah, scroll through the photos because you're going to see all the photos of Brandon Flowers.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. And we're manifesting him coming on your show and it's gonna be so epic. Oh my goodness.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, he'll be on.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, yes, yes. Well, thank you so much, Ben. And that reminded me listeners, there's also because you mentioned the brain, there's an entire fascinating section on the brain and keto and something I did not anticipate with neurotransmitter production. So that's a teaser for people to get the book.

But Ben, just thank you so much for all that you do. It's been such a pleasure and honor knowing you these past many years. And please come back on the show and can't wait to hang out again. And can't wait to go see Brandon Flowers for his new album.

Ben Azadi
Yeah, we're going to be there at the barrier me and Danielle. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
We'll have a good rest of your day and we'll talk soon.

Ben Azadi
Thank you Malini, I appreciate you.

Melanie Avalon
Bye, Ben. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast.

For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guest, and always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com, and always remember, you got this.