The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #263 - Sam Sokol

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Hi everybody, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is a very long time coming. So the backstory on today's conversation quite a while ago now, I don't even know when this was, maybe a year ago. I did a summit with my business partner, R-Blank, who I am co-developing a EMF blocking product line with. It was a healthier tech summit. And on that summit, I had the pleasure of meeting the fantastic human being, Sam, so cool. He is the founder of an incredible game called Grata Cube. And we actually played this game on the summit. And I was so attracted to the general concept. And honestly, when we played it on the summit, it was my first time with my experience with it. And I didn't have a lot of lead up into what we were actually going to be doing. So I kind of just got thrown in. But the vibe of the game was so incredible because it was all about using these cards and dice and prompts to have people share stories and moments from their lives and just the organic relationships that build from that and the conversation that comes from it. It was a very interactive, revealing game that encourages gratitude, which is something I am all about. So yeah, I was super intrigued, really loved it. And I connected beyond that with Sam some more and hearing more about his game and his vision and his the future that they're doing with it, which we're going to talk about. It's very exciting. I knew I simply had to have him on the show. And then through Sam, I met, are you guys partners, Sam and Terry?

Sam Sokol:
Business partners and just great friends, yes.

Terry Torok:
We look them inside the box when you open it and we start thinking outside the box. But yeah, we're all in play. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
So through Sam, I met Terry Torok and he also is, as you probably just heard with them talking, such an incredible vibe and everything with all of this. And Terry, you have a really, really impressive background with brand amplification and media and working with causes. And so before we dive deeper into the game itself, we're actually gonna play a little bit of the game on the show. Both of you, would you like to tell a little bit about your personal story so people can get a sense of where you're coming from and what you do and then talk a little bit about how you're partnering up and came to form Gratitude.

Sam Sokol:
Absolutely. I'd love to jump in there. Thank you so much for that kind introduction. Thanks for having us today on your show. It's such a pleasure. From the first time I met you, I was like, wow, this lady is amazing and she knows your stuff. It was just really great to get to know you there and since that it's just been better and better each time we connect. So thank you for having us.

Melanie Avalon:
No, of course. Oh, and just to one little last comment, Sam and I realized at the end of our last call, when we were brainstorming about all of this, I had no idea. He's also, side note, a lot of it, into health and wellness world. And he has a supplement line for C60, carbon 60, which is something I am on the side a little bit obsessed with. So that's a rabbit hole, but there's just so many different threads here. So coming back to you guys and your stories.

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, absolutely, oh my gosh. So how did any of us get here? This is really kind of a cool life to meet fun people and get to connect with them and explore different rabbit holes and businesses. And that's really how Terry and I met. We, a friend of mine said, hey, there's this great teacher and he does these business courses, you should check it out. And his name is Marshall, Marshall Thurburn. So I went and took one of his courses and was blown away. It was so much fun. We played games the whole time and business concepts came to light. And you met other really fun and interesting and creative people. And after a few years of becoming addicted to that world and working with Marshall, I met Terry because Terry was also in this world of Marshall and we really found a kindred spiritness to each other and went, wow, you're working on this project and you're working on that one, cool. And Terry was working on something in South Africa and I was in Poland at the time. He says, hey, do you wanna come to South Africa? And so I joined him at this really cool thing called the Enactus World Cup. So we've had these opportunities to cross paths along the way, particularly working in gamified education, experiential learning. And that's just such a love for both of us to say, how do we take these amazing tools and share them with the world? And part of that came to be with, I went to Burning Man one year, felt like it was a good year, but not a great year. Thought about how I might connect differently with people the next year. And for those people who don't know what Burning Man is, it's this wild social experiment of 70 ,000 people in the desert attempting to kind of cohabitate for a week through this temporary city called Black Rock City that disappears at the end of the celebration of this human kind that we have. And so one year I'm driving home thinking, man, I wish I could have connected better and differently with people. And what could I have done differently? How could I have done that? And on my long drive back, I thought, well, I could be a better listener. What if I tried that on? And everything at Burning Man is this radical inclusion, radical self-reliance and radical. So, you know, welcoming other people and being reliant on yourself. And I thought, all right, so let's be radical. I'll be a radical listener for a week. So I came back the next year to be completely silent for a week. And I had props in my pocket that I could hand to people that, you know, basically said, since I learned to speak, I haven't stopped. I'm choosing this week to listen. And if there's a story you might wanna share, I promise I won't interrupt. And then I had a follow-up question one for each day of the week that people would then have the opportunity to share if they wanted to. And that was extraordinary. And as I was driving out, I'm talking to Terry like, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. He's like, yeah, that's crazy. What are you thinking? And so, as I, you know, finished the experience and got out of my week of silence, I called Terry and I'm like, wow, you gotta hear about this. This is incredible. How do we share this with the world? And so we started that conversation. It turned into, hey, let's use this gamified intelligence that we have, this way of making games to share this with the world. Because, you know, people aren't probably gonna go be silent at Burning Man for a week. That's probably not, but it was beautiful. And I wanted to share it. And Terry and I are so good about finding ways to share that kind of magic with the world. So that's what we did. We talked about it, collaborated, tested it with people from all different parts of the world and co-founded this beautiful game. And there's more to the story. I'm gonna let Terry pick up from there, but it has been a collaboration from the beginning and a co-creation along with the players that we meet thinking first of the world, not waiting till later to go, hey, let's give back. It's like all the way along. How can we consider all the voices that we can and be as inclusive as possible? And we've done that. We've tested with different cultures, different groups of people, older, younger, people as young as I think five have played this game, maybe younger, but five as far as I know of and up to my 99-year-old grandma, she'll be 99. Actually, her birthday's today. I'm going to see her in a few. Oh, man. Yeah, so from five to 99, as far as I know, as soon as I play it with her, I can say 99-year-old has played it and it's inclusive of all humanity. So without any further ado and also the 660 part that Terry is also a business partner in Carbon 60. So once you find those awesome people in your life, it's like, hey, how can we play together and how do we make the world work for everyone?

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, Terry.

Terry Torok:
Other than that, Melanie, no prior convictions.

Melanie Avalon:
That's all she wrote.

Terry Torok:
The crimes we were about to commit. Melanie, it's so cool to be here. Thank you so much. I love your voice. I'm now addicted to your podcast. I'm going to start by actually challenging myself and drawing a card from our recent game that says, describe your relationship with conformity or nonconformity. OK, wow. And I'm going to use that to give you a little quick background. Describe your relationship with conformity and nonconformity. I would say that I've lived life in two hemispheres that have this wild intersection. I just didn't know they would crash into each other until later in life. But really headed out to be a journalist. I wanted to be a war correspondent. I wanted to be a volunteer. I wanted to travel the world. But coming out of college, I really found myself on the dark side of entertainment. And I went deep into entertainment, worked on many, many tours with musical artists that ranged from Alicia Keys to Elton John to The Stones to many, many more. And then sponsorship that went into the Olympics, FIFA World Cup, et cetera. A lot of media, a lot of stunts that we would do for Pepsi and Coke. And first commercial in space, working with Muhammad Ali, selling the Brooklyn Bridge, a lot of crazy media stuff. But all of that time, I wanted to really get back to the roots of I wanted to do something that mattered more. Who cared about selling a little bit more sugar water and moving somebody else's needle? Zero point, hot, hot, three. What could we do for humanity? So when I had the chance, I really went on a deep dive and spent a lot of time sub-Saharan Africa on the Middle East after finishing a film in New York just after 9-11. And I got to spend a lot of time in the space and place that I wanted to be. And also experiencing some of the best and worst of humankind, working with child soldiers, working with maternal health in rural India, deep in the Congo. And oftentimes, having sleepless nights being overwhelmed by, how did we get here? What have we done when the Earth cuts loose? Where can we go? And along that path, I was able to discover something Sam mentioned was an actus. So I went from a sea of challenges and the worst of environment, the worst of humankind to a sea of solution with young people who, like many of us are altruistic around the time of college. So it really brought those two hemispheres of entertainment, working with A-list artists who have great causes from Alicia to George Clooney to Elton John to many, many more Deepak Chopra to entertaining change. How can we leverage some of times those intentions? Oftentimes at bright, shiny stage, with the truth and reality of the quieter conversations around the world, how can we help support 100% of humankind, especially the ones that are shy of voice? Just as a father, by the way, of a special needs child, my son Justice, full of joy, big boy, but he has about 50 word approximations. He is autistic, apraxic, ataxic, it's a big deal for him to get a glass of water to his lips, which really helped me between him and his other brother. Elijah had come up with a real balance of entertaining change. How can we have fun making a difference? And in the end of the day, no matter what we're doing, if we're not having fun, then what on earth are we doing? And that led Sam and I to really come together, put it in a box and start creating games. And one little asterisk to all of that, somewhere along the path, I became the OG of e-sports inadvertently and accidentally and produced the first major e-sports tours and Nintendo World Championships, brought it to television, which I host and produced, and then the first arena in Times Square. So gamifying genius had to be somewhere, the needle was way back in the record. And here we are today with all of the fun that we're helping share with the world.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so incredible. And now I think listeners can understand why once I connected with you guys, I just had to learn more and bring you here and share all of it with the audience. I have so many questions. So to comment a little bit on just the experience of games in general, I, so in my family, I am sort of the person in charge of family game night. Like I love family game nights, even though we're all adults now in my family, I'm always trying to organize them because I find that they really can, I mean, they bring people together and there's just such a magic and I'm having flashbacks too because I'm all over the place right now. The next version of your game, you're working with Deepak Chopra to make that game and it's revolving around his book, which is called Abundance, The Inner Path to Wealth. And so I read that book in preparation for today's show. And in that book, Deepak talks about this difference between good magic and bad magic, which I had never heard those terms before, but that feeling of good magic between people when everybody, there's just love and gratitude and peace and happiness and high vibrations. I love having that experience with my family and I love getting that through game nights as I'm bringing all that full circle. And so historically, I've always gravitated towards, I mean, growing up, it was like Monopoly, which I guess you could learn about each other with Monopoly. And that's actually, I guess, gamified learning about the financial system, although I didn't really realize that at the time. Now I look at it, I'm like, oh, that's what it's trying to teach you. That was all over my head. Now with the games that I gravitate towards, they've always been these games where you are learning about each other. I was telling you guys that we love this game called Loaded Questions, for example. So we have a few different ones where it is about people sharing personal stories and laughing and bonding. And so the game that you've created with Gratitude, I was so excited because I was like, this is doing what I love and how I love connecting with people. I actually played the game, I was telling you guys, I played the game over the weekend with my sister and my mom. And so I can share that experience. Should I share that experience?

Sam Sokol:
A hundred percent, yes.

Terry Torok:
Your show's in a little latitude here, Melanie, and if you want a convex game night, come on, game on.

Melanie Avalon:
I just realized we went straight into the game, and I still have lots of questions about game theory in general, but so well, first of all, backtracking again. The version, I have to ask you guys, and I asked you this on the call recently, but so the version when people buy it, is it the wooden cubes or is it the cosmic cubes? Cosmic cubes, cosmic cubes. The cosmic cubes? Yes. Okay, good. When they sent me the game originally, some had wooden cubes and some had these cosmic cubes that I'm holding in my hand right now, and it's like looking into a galaxy. I think it really just viscerally and aesthetically, it really creates the feeling of the potential of this game. So listeners are going to have to get their hands on it pun intended to experience it. So we played this game with the cosmic cubes. Basically, the general overview of the gameplay is there are these story cards, and then there's a larger cube and a smaller cube. The larger cube has all of these different emotions and feelings on them. So things like trust and gratitude and shame and guilt and wisdom. And the other one has different aspects of time. So always now, future, sometime, you roll the cubes, you roll, you pick a card and the card has prompts kind of similar to the one that Terry was sharing a moment ago about the conformity. And you use it to have it spark a memory. And then you go from there. And then people have curiosity cards or the curious cards, curiosity cards, and gratitude cards. And you can share your gratitude or you can share your curiosity to continue the conversation a little bit based on where it's going. So it's a very fluid and I don't want to say nebulous, but it can go a lot of different ways. And there also are a lot of different versions of the game that are presented as like spinoffs. So our experience, my sister was so excited because she is, she is obsessed with Deepak Chopra. And again, we weren't playing the new version of the game with Deepak, but she was just so excited about everything you guys are doing with that. And I did show her the stuff on the site and you have stuff about the chakras on the site. And so she was really excited about that. And then my mom was excited because she's just, I mean, she, we call her the wild card in the family, but she just, she just loves a fun time. So in any case, I was really surprised about how, cause I actually wasn't sure like, were we going to immediately connect in? Was it going to be difficult to like, you know, find the magic and find the vibe? And we, we pretty much immediately from the get go really connected and we found ourselves sharing these memories and stories. And mom would get really excited when, you know, she had a curiosity card she could use to like ask more questions. And it was a really, really incredible bonding experience. I do have questions about it and the gameplay, but I just want to say that I can't recommend it enough for listeners as a way it doesn't have to just be, you know, family can be friends, it can be strangers, which I would love to ask you guys about as well with, you know, all the places that you have had, you know, people play this game, but it really brought us together. And we were laughing, we were reflecting. I'm trying to remember some of the specific moments. Oh, so this is one moment because you guys were talking about, you know, the, you know, bettering humanity and you know, what we can do with all this. And one of the questions I thought was so interesting. It was if you only had one year left to live, what would you do with that time? And for my mom, she said she would just travel. And then she listed a very random list of places she wanted to go, like Iceland. And then we made our own version of the game where we decided everybody could answer the question if they wanted. So then we went around and all answered it. And my answer was, I said I wanted to use it as a, I felt a little bit like bad about my answer, but I said I wanted to, I said I would use that one year left to live as a platform to continue doing the work that I'm doing and just, you know, I guess accelerate it and catalyze it even more to do more in the world. And so then my mom was saying that she felt that that she felt bad because she felt that her answer was selfish because she said she, her answer didn't involve like improving the world. And I was telling her mom, no, like I honestly believe that when people are doing what lifts them up and what makes them feel good and are at this high vibration, I think that just betters everybody. Like if everybody were existing in that state, just think about what our world would look like. And so that's why I'm so grateful for what you're doing with this game, because I feel like you are providing this, a physical tool and a connection to allow people to find what's important to them and reach these places of higher vibration. And that really does better the world. And like doing it through playing a game, I think it's so approachable and accessible. So I really can't thank you guys enough for what you're doing.

Terry Torok:
Do you let your mom know that you were going to travel with her while doing what you do at an accelerated pace?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that.

Terry Torok:
What is the way and you're gonna be a nice like you're gonna be traveling the world and you'll be hanging out with her and you'll be doing what you do and you'll entertain change to be fine. It's a good pairing.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm going to report back with that. I think one of my answers to one of my cards had to do with working on my travel skills.

Terry Torok:
Our work here is finished.

Melanie Avalon:
I have questions for you about the game. I have thoughts about the games, but I just want to check in with you guys. What has been your experience for how people react to playing this game?

Sam Sokol:
Well, before I answer that, I want to hand you this virtual gratitude card that's in the game. And, you know, you talked about curiosity, the story card and the gratitude cards are a way to express this appreciation for resonance and what you just shared. I want to just call back into what you were saying. And I love that your mom is the wild card. We talk a lot about the wild cards in our lives, and it's just a beautiful change up sometimes to have that person that's a little different, has a different approach. And the conversation that brought up for you to have this, oh, wait a minute, I didn't answer it the way you answered it, but also to find that beauty and how you answered it being perfect. And I love what you said, that high vibration betters everyone. That, to me, is the good magic that you're describing. It's being able to appreciate those differences and find gratitude for those beautiful moments. So I love what you said, and I love how it sparked that memory of just connection for you. So the gratitude for you, for the work that you're doing, that is so important to you that you would continue to do that even if you have one year left to live, that you would continue that says a lot about you. So I appreciate you sharing that.

Melanie Avalon:
No, no, thank you. And like I said, it really is those moments when I feel like you just feel the beauty of humanity when you're connecting with other people and laughing. And I think the best moment of the whole game, the question was, it was something about if you could have everybody know something, what would it be? It was something like that. And my sister answered it and she said something like, I wish everybody could know how to return to the present moment at any time. Like it was a really deep answer and it was great. And my mom, and then my mom was like, oh, I was going to say I wish everybody knew how to peel a banana correctly. Because apparently you're supposed to peel it from the bottom. How do you guys feel a banana? Do you guys feel it from the top?

Terry Torok:
Well, that's a good first of all, you got to start with what is the actual top and bottom of a banana because I know a long time coming early, we see bananas hanging in their natural city like, oh, wait, they grew upside down in all of my lives.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so true. You know, everything's relative. So I'm doing the good work for my mom right now, though, because like she said, she wants everybody to know that they need to peel it from the bottom, which according to her is the not the conventional side of the banana.

Terry Torok:
Okay, so the bottom, so the stem part, they grow up, right? Like the stem is actually the

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wait, how do they grow? I don't even know what they look like.

Terry Torok:
Everything downwards, don't they go upwards? All right, this is a rabbit hole. Question for the game, please.

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa, my mind is being blown right now.

Sam Sokol:
That's it. That's how they grow. They grow in reverse of what we would think the top is normally.

Terry Torok:
Now who's correct? Now we got a chicken with your mom.

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa, I thought they hung but they they're like they're like reaching for the stars from day one. It's bananas

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, bananas, and pineapples grow in bushes, not trees. That was another one that got me. I was like, oh no, I always thought they, like, yeah. And I saw it in nature. I was like, that's the cutest thing ever to see a little baby pineapple. And I didn't realize they grew on bushes.

Melanie Avalon:
The pineapples, yeah, and then cashews are like, it's like a single cashew in its glory.

Terry Torok:
Incredible. So back to mom and bananas. Let's solve this for the world. So what are you doing?

Melanie Avalon:
So the way you peel it, according to the Germans, we're just like our family history, is most people peel it from the like the the peely part, like the like the long part, but you peel it from the little nub stub part. And apparently it's very, very easy to do that.

Terry Torok:
So that that technically is the top of the banana.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, but most people are going to not know that the bananas grow backwards.

Sam Sokol:
And it kind of makes sense, you know, from nature's standpoint, right? Because the part, the longer part or the stem part is where it has to grow. It needs to be strong there. And then the top would actually make sense like that. Well, nubbin wouldn't be as strong like nature intended for the banana to kind of stand up. And so it needed to have that strength at the bottom. You want to pull from that, you pull from the weaker part.

Melanie Avalon:
Brilliant. It breaks off cleanly. Yeah.

Terry Torok:
About six hours ago, there was a question posed to us and it was something like this. What was your experience of people playing the game while we're out? And I recall that question before we went bananas.

Melanie Avalon:
This is actually a good example, though, of how what happens with the game, like, so when you're playing it with people, you just go on these wonderful tangents of and you connect and laugh. And so, yes, how have you going back to that question six hours ago?

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, six hours ago, you asked about friends and strangers, and this giggle about strangers. Strangers, we call it out as perfect strangers, because sometimes people have that, oh, you're not supposed to talk to strangers mentality. And some of us have found like, oh, a stranger, cool. This is someone I haven't met yet. This might be a new friend. And so with that curiosity and openness and maybe a little courage to play a game, and I've done this a few times, not just to test the game, because that feels a little dirty to be like, oh, I'm just doing this to test the game, but really authentically, because I want to connect with other people. And I've done this where I just go on my normal travels. I'm traveling in the airport, and I pull out the box, and I'm a person that likes to eat a lot, wherever I am. I'm always hungry. So here I am at breakfast, and I just pull the box out, set it to the side, pulled out the dice and the cards. And it's such an easy entry point for people to go, oh, what's that? Is that a game? And you say, yeah, would you like to play? And most often, the answer is yes, particularly if they said, hey, is that a game? People love games. And so I found that that can be a really beautiful way to connect with strangers and to the point that I heard you make before about how you can learn about each other very quickly and kind of go deep quickly, depending on who's sharing and the diversity of those shares. Maybe it's Peel Banana, maybe it's Change the World, but that if you give people the opportunity, you can be surprised sometimes about how deep the conversation can go. And so even with the stranger, I remember meeting a lady at Denver International Airport before my flight, having my breakfast, she pulls a card and starts to tell me about her plan for a family and IVF and things you might not expect anyone to ever share with you, and she didn't seem like the type that would just effusively share with just anyone. And yet here we were, and she knew because I was authentically interested that she could share it with me, and she did. So those are beautiful moments. I think there are probably a lot of stories that people can find where maybe that interaction with the stranger didn't go well. But I can say that playing this game and the invitation to connect through curiosity, through gratitude, really sets the stage for a beautiful moment together.

Terry Torok:
I would double down on that, Sam. When you go to creditcube.game, WWE creditcube.game, you will find, you can click on the A game, which was our human experiment that we did up at Sundance. And we said, could we turn truly perfect strangers who have no idea what they're about to enter into fast friends in 44 minutes? And we filmed that experiment and anybody can see that creditcube.game. It was a human experience, filmed it at Sundance. And we brought together strangers one table at a time. All they knew is they were walking into a strange place, could have been a cult, could have been whatever, with a puzzle piece. And they brought that puzzle piece together and met three other strangers and dove right into the game, which was such a cool human experiment. And we were very hands off. We were like, whatever happens, happens. And we let all of it be on film, which anybody can see. We also had experiences all over the world. Sam and I recently in Utrecht probably was profound, especially at a time of heightened disillusionment and perhaps challenge in the world and war-torn discourse. So we had people from very, very different and heated point of views sit down and play and open their beautiful minds to a different kind of truth that got to see not only of the other person differently, but themselves differently. We spent a lot of time with college age students. We experimented with 33 college students who had been together already six weeks. So we thought they would have known each other really, really well, but they as a baseline admitted, nah, they tried to get us together. They tried to do all these orientation things but we really resisted and didn't get to know each other like this game. After 90 minutes of playing the game and laughing and having a good time, they were playing the Deepak Chopra version. How many, do you think these guys are like, when you're years old, do you think they even know who Deepak Chopra is? Of the 33 that we were playing with from countries all over the world, three kind of had some familiarity with Deepak Chopra, which was super cool for us because that wasn't the, you didn't have to know Deepak or read, and thank you Melanie for reading the book of abundance, but you didn't have to, in order to be part of the book club, you could enter and learn. And every card has a unique portal that can lead you to places like Digital Deepak, lead you to the Gratosphere, lead you to networking. So it's a super cool portal. Sam designed it as an in-person game first and foremost, but we can play it online. You can play it in the course of this podcast if you'd like to.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so awesome. Yes, I so many questions about the new manifestation of the game. So I actually a while ago on the show, I had AJ Jacobs, he's written a lot of really incredible hysterical books. The book I brought him on the show for was a book called The Puzzler, and it was all about puzzles and games. And he actually talked about in that book, I don't remember the specifics, but I think they did studies on bringing together people of different opinions. I think it was politically, they found that playing, I think it was like doing a jigsaw puzzle together, or like some sort of game, doing that together was, it could break all barriers when it came to, you know, people in conflict or people who are seemingly hostile to each other. Like there's something magical about using this catalyst of a game that, and it kind of relates to what you were saying, Sam, about being able to just, you know, go deep, seemingly pretty quick with strangers. I think, I think people are so naturally inclined to want to connect and share and bond, but sometimes you just need this third party instigator. And that's what I think this game can do.

Terry Torok:
It's weird because jigsaw puzzles start wars at my house.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man.

Terry Torok:
Like Lloyd and now there's a parallel universe that are at peace with jigsaw puzzles putting them together. That's good.

Sam Sokol:
You know, two things come to mind about that. One, I have a friend who's a pastor at a church and he was a pastor for a few years and then he felt like he wasn't quite reaching the audience. They keep coming back every week. And he's like, well, is this moving forward in any way or people just coming back to hear the message and connect with each other in some way that doesn't quite match his intention. So ultimately he's a very deep thinker and has this heart to change the world. And he also has a wife and a child. And when you step into that environment outside the church, things can change. And he said that when he was playing the game, they could go really deep and find beautiful connection and asking questions. And even his daughter, who I think was five years old, so the five to 99, she was the five. And initially they thought she wouldn't be able to answer some of the questions because she didn't have the context of shame and regret and some of these words that maybe don't appear yet for people, but she did learn and they learned as a family together. He said they had a wonderful time playing, but he said some of the subjects that they had during the game, when he and his wife would talk about it later outside of the game in their regular relationship at home, outside the church, didn't go very well. And they argued, but the same thing they could talk about in the game and it was okay. And another story similar to that is my friend who is from the UK and his mom is French and is living in the United States. So he went home to see his mom. We happened to get a gratitude just in time so he could play with his mom over the holidays. And there's this part of the instructions that said, for an extraordinary experience, would you be willing to listen fully? And she took that to heart. And he said it was the first time he can remember that instead of asking questions that drove him into a corner where he'd have to sort of answer yes or no to her questioning, he was able to expand and explain for him what was true. And that tiny instruction, or would you be willing to listen, I think, is a really powerful moment. It's similar to on a card when I said, if you're willing to share something, I promise I won't interrupt. So somewhere in the combination of that, when you set the frames of this house, so to speak, is I'm gonna choose to listen. I'm going to ask a thoughtful question. I may reflect some gratitude. And those are really important pillars that bring people together and set that context for openness and vulnerability and some trust to be built. So if it's regular everyday conversation or something that has a little bit of conflict, and I know Terry's got, I could just feel, Terry has something here to share as well, but there's something very powerful. Even just having dice and cards out there that we submit to, we choose, right? It's an invitation. You don't have to do anything in this game. You go light, you play deep, that's up to you. Choosing to play the game, yeah, there's this opportunity to connect.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that idea that it's sort of like it's creating a safety net. That is really, really fascinating about that they could have the conversations, you know, within the realm of the game. And it was safe compared to when it was just, quote, real life. It's so, so interesting. And also a question just in general about, about gameplay. A, what do you think makes a game engaging and fun? And does a game require a winner? Well, it's the role of a winner.

Sam Sokol:
Ooh, this is, I'm definitely letting Terry take this. I have my thoughts on it. If we have time, I want to answer as well, but I know Terry's got some thoughts about this. I'm going to pass the baton, the dice.

Terry Torok:
I love that you referenced Monopoly before. I think I would reference our game as co-opoly, and I love the fact that people enter a game with a mindset that they can blow their mind thinking, oh, how do you win? What's the winner? What does the winner look like? And in the game, you actually learn how to win differently. You know, what's it like? We've seen these amazing moments in YouTube or whatever where somebody crosses the finish line, another person stumbles, and they help the person over the finish line. When you watch that clip, you're like, who just won? Who won in that moment? And so this is an opportunity to cross a finish line and help everybody else across a finish line. You learn this, discover it in the course of the game. Sam and I have sat back and watched games where it's possible that you could have said nobody won. It's possible you could say some people won, and it's possible you could see everybody won. And so the cooperation that's required, the listening, which is very challenging oftentimes for people even in Monopoly, those kind of breakthroughs are winning moments. And when you get to the gift round, as I think you did, Melanie, then you know how you can experience the win in the game of Graticube.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so I'm glad we're talking about the gift round because okay, okay, okay, so we were playing and we got to that round and we we were a little bit confused about how to play it. We decided we were going to make that round like night two to play that round. Although I wonder if we have to if we need to replay it before I don't know if we can just jump into that round. I will say my mom and I honestly going into it I really didn't know how it was going to land and we all wanted to play again like immediately and set up a second game night. So this final round, how do you play it?

Terry Torok:
Would you be willing to play the first round with us on this?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes!

Terry Torok:
pass and then we'll ease everybody listening into the gift round. Is that cool? That's perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, Mr. Producer over here. That's great. I'm ready.

Terry Torok:
have here. Don't know where you were, Melanie. We missed you when you went on your cliff finger there. I have in my hands time space cubes. And Sam has a continuum of cards. Sam, I have cards from the new game of abundance with the Deepak Chopra cards. And I believe you have the gratitude cards, et cetera.

Sam Sokol:
It is true. I've got both as well. I've got the Deepak cards right in front of me. I've also got the OG game in front of me as well.

Terry Torok:
Well, super cool. Well, how we would normally start is super easy. As Sam had mentioned, you can enter this really easy, but there's levels of play where you can go deeper and deeper. And there's moments where on the surface, it chills like, I don't get this part, or it's a struggle. It's actually where the magic happens and the work is done. But you enter super, super easy by rolling a time space dice. Typically, whoever rolls love or gratitude goes first. It will accelerate that round. And I'm just going to nominate you, Melanie, as a go first person. And do you have time space cubes with you, Melanie? Or would you like me to go?

Melanie Avalon:
I do, so I can actually roll. I have a question really quick about the rolling to go first. And so also like context, I think there's definitely people who love rules and like they love plans and rules. And then there are people who find freedom in planning and having rules, and there's people who find who feel constricted by planning and rules. So I'm like the freedom from the planning and rules, like all the rules all the time. So right from the beginning, where you roll, and then whoever gets love or gratitude goes first. So I rolled, and I immediately rolled love or gratitude. So then we have the question of, does that mean I immediately go or is it after everybody has rolled who gets it first? And then do you have like a roll off? We were wondering what the rule was. And then that also relates to the larger question of what is the role of rules in the game.

Terry Torok:
we have something just for you and something for everybody else. We have written no rules and it's K-N-O-W rules. So whether you read it as no rules, N-O or K-N-O-W rules, both exist and both are true. That's one that just broke all rules. We hadn't thought about a rule off. So what on earth did you do in your situation when you rolled, I guess you rolled love right away or gratitude? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, basically I rolled love and I was like, I get to go. And then they were like, wait, but we didn't get to roll. And then we're like, Oh, so, so, so we all rolled and there was no need for a roll off because nobody else rolled love or gratitude. So we created, I guess we created our own rule. Yeah. You get to go first again.

Terry Torok:
So how's that?

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, I want to jump in there real quick. Something that's very interesting, because people sometimes do get caught up in this rule, no rule, and there's so many differences across the spectrum of humanity, and it's a big spectrum. And what we've noticed is we can use a set of instructions that if you're speaking to 200 people, a lot of people get and some people don't. And some people go, oh, my understanding of this was, and it's okay, there's room for the diversity of understanding and room for the diversity of expression. And what I find to be most interesting, so people say, how do you play this game? What I'll do is I'll go to a party or any gathering, right? And I'll set up wherever the middle is, see like the heart of that gathering. And where there's a table or an open space, I'll put out the story cards, I'll set out the dice and the curiosity and gratitude cards. And I will, in some cases, kind of plant the instructions in the box, right? But walk away, just walk away. And in 10 minutes, I'll come back and watch people having a fantastic time. And even just listening over my shoulder, someone will say, oh, okay, here's what you do. They have no idea what to do. They have not read the instructions and it works out beautifully. And it's funny because then you give someone instructions like, I don't get it. But if you leave it without the instruction, like, oh, no, no, cool, check this out. So here's, you pull a card, you roll the dice, now go. And it's just amazing. So I think for Terry and I, what we always wanted out of this game is that people will make it their own and they will find their beautiful way to express their creativity. And we don't even know all the ways to play this game. We've identified five or six different ways to play the game and we keep hearing about new ones.

Terry Torok:
But in many ways, it's like a deck of cards. If you landed on planet Earth from Venus and you looked at a deck of cards and said, how do you play? Oh my God, how do I begin to even tell you how to play a deck of cards from solitaire to 52 card pickup to, you know, right. Bauer really bridge, you know? So, all right, you, you're, you've got the, you've got the dice. You got time, space in your hands, Melanie, go for it.

Melanie Avalon:
And last question related to the rules, that was the other thing we kept going a little bit back and forth on was, you know, because you have the story prompt card and then you have the time and the space and the feeling. I think sometimes it was hard for us to decide which route to go with the memories that were coming, especially if they maybe got inspired by one of the, like just the card or just the dice or, you know, did it fit all of them? And so we kept having, especially my mom was like having a little bit of confusion. So we kept saying like, just use all of it as, and maybe this, I don't know if it's the quote, correct interpretation, we were saying just use all of it as a prompt for, you know, whatever comes to mind and try not to stress about it having to fulfill the criteria of everything.

Sam Sokol:
It's beautiful, but well said, absolutely, you know, what I normally would when I'm in those situations, I see somebody who's having those questions, it's like, whatever first comes to mind, go with it, right? There's something that's there that wants to be spoken in that moment. And someone's like, I don't know what it is. So okay, take take a thoughtful moment, we'll hold that space for you. It's okay, take take a moment, you know, you don't have to know the answer. So many people when they connect, say something like, Hey, where are you from? What do you do? And those are autopilot answers. They're just there waiting at the top of your head. But what's something that's beautiful about this game is allowing for there to be space for someone to explore what's there and supporting them. So maybe they go through their card, they're like, Yeah, and then you say, Hey, what about the dice? Like, Oh, the dice, well, I'm not sure. And you say, Hey, would you be interested in an outside perspective? And you hand that curiosity question over, and they go, Oh, what do you think the dice are for? And so this is a way to, to really lean into those friendships and lean into those connections we have with other humans.

Melanie Avalon:
Love it. I love it. Okay, so I so I'm going to roll both and and because you have the card wait, right? Is that what we're doing?

Terry Torok:
You can ask for a card from me, I have Deepak Chopra's cards, or ask for a card from Sam, who has gratitude cards.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, and oh man, and to clarify, because we haven't really talked about the Deepak version, we talked about it a little bit, is it a pretty similar structure, just with those portal spin-offs and the theming in general?

Terry Torok:
We will eventually add more and more decks, but abundance and gratitude are pretty good places to start, but we've got a lot everywhere to go. So yeah, same game play, time space, dice, and then the continuum of cards is more and more, you have a trilogy from the- The theming. Yeah, different themes, you got it.

Melanie Avalon:
I was curious, did you make some of the questions from the quizzes that he has in the book?

Terry Torok:
They were inspired by some direct lineage, and then we basically mind-mapped the book, and we say the book, and then we play it back with Deepak, we sit with him and reflect it back, and it was a little bit of everything, but what's also cool is that every card links back to a page or a chapter. So if you want to discover more, if you choose to discover more, you can go on a deep dive through the QR code. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, maybe we can do one of the original grad cubes and then we could do one of the abundance

Terry Torok:
I'll use Sam. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm gonna roll the dice and I got joy and now oh That was that was one that's one thing my mom said she's like we should just play with the dice like and then like What's a memory from joy and now? But yeah

Terry Torok:
The weighted dice, Melanie. You've got special dice there. Is there other words on your dice?

Sam Sokol:
I love that. Well, why don't you give me a number between zero and ten? I'm just going to pick the relative number from the deck here.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, seven.

Sam Sokol:
Seven. Okay. I think it's this one. Here we go. This is a storyteller card, and I would invite that as you consider the question, I'll give you the question, and then there's a character associated with this called the storyteller. If you go to Gratitude.game, you'll find that there's audio to play that describes the storyteller. So I'm going to invite you to do that, but I'm going to give you the prompt first. It says, describe a famous or favorite failure. Join in now.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so should I, so listen to the, um,

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, listen to the storyteller and maybe while you're listening to that, it'll give you a chance to consider describing a famous or favorite failure with joy and now.

Melanie Avalon:
So, I had recently one of the biggest failures on my podcast, and it has led to so much joy now. So, that is that I was prepping to interview Dr. Michael Greger. He's really, really, he's like one of the most well-known vegans in the vegan world. And I, on my other show, this show, what am I talking about? I have too many shows on this show. I try to bring on people of all different perspectives. And a lot of my audience is very like paleo and keto and carnivore. And when I bring on people really big in the vegan sphere, I get really, it's really exciting. And I get a little bit nervous because I know that, you know, it's not their typical audience. And I want them to feel comfortable and all the things. Dr. Michael Greger, his books, he's a New York Times bestseller. His books are so long. They're so long. So, it was the longest prep I had ever done for any show. I think I had 40 pages of typed up notes. He came on the show. We recorded a little bit of video in the beginning for promo purposes, and he had to change his setup for that because he didn't know there was going to be any video. When switching to the other track, I did not hit record and I didn't realize. And so, I recorded, we recorded a 90 minute interview and it wasn't recorded. I was so embarrassed. And I, it's funny because a lot of like really hard things were happening in my life at that time. And I remember I went and saw my therapist and, but out of everything that was happening, I was so distraught about that. And I just didn't know what to do. And finally, I just decided to tell him the truth that I lost it and invite him to come on again in the future for his new book. And if he wanted to come back and rerecord, he could, but obviously no pressure. And his team reported back. They're like, he'll come back and he'll do it again. I was honestly just so in, it gave me so much joy, not even about because he would, that I was going to record it again, but the kindness, I remember I literally, it was just like the kindness of humanity can really, really be wonderful. And so yeah, that was, that was a massive, massive failure on my part. And it led to so much joy even now. I'm just so, so grateful.

Terry Torok:
I have a gratitude card for you for sharing that because it's not always easy to share your mistakes, especially when it's so central. I also have a curiosity card with a question. Are we being recorded right now?

Melanie Avalon:
I know, right? I know. We're not making it right. I know. I know. We are.

Terry Torok:
Alright, then we have our gratitude card. Good to go.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you, thank you. So yeah, so that's an example for listeners of, you know, of really how the game can go.

Sam Sokol:
I've got another curiosity question though, if you're open to it. Oh yeah, sure. What advice would you give to me and others about that challenge? The one where you, you know, you've got this important person, you've got this timing and you're stuck with this like, oh, you know, this possible regret. And it's like, what advice would you give to someone and maybe even to yourself, like the next time something like that, you know, hoping up the same thing, but something like that happens, what might you offer?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so and that's a really, really great question. And what's coming to me immediately is because I was so stressed about it. And I was asking people what to do. And interestingly, so many people, I mean, not like I was talking to tons of people, but a few people were saying the go to answer that was being told to me was you should tell him basically try to make up an excuse, like you should tell him there was a technical glitch and you lost the recording. Like, nobody was saying just tell him what happened, you know, you know, and I, one of the biggest, most important things to me, the thing I probably value the most in life is honesty. And so I think the decision to literally just be honest and just say what happened, that was really, really helpful for me. And I'm glad I didn't try to like, say it was because of some other reason. And I was like, nope, this was me, like, this is my fault. And I am so, so, so sorry. So that would be thing one. And then thing two would be I and this is something I tell myself all the time. And it's so much easier said than done. But, you know, we ruminate and we stress about things in life and that stress and that rumination, it doesn't help anything like things happen and they happen. And then you can choose where to go from there. Literally stressing and ruminating about it does not doesn't help anything. It just makes it, you know, a more unpleasant experience. So it's easier said than done. But, yeah, acceptance and moving forward, I think, is really powerful.

Sam Sokol:
I have a gratitude card for you. I really appreciate what you just shared. And when you say that honesty and that's important to you and just telling the truth, for me, that's a top value. I just learned a lot more about you and your character. Hearing that story, I know it's so easy and people do, they can easily hide behind a very plausible excuse, like, oh, that was a glitch. But it's so endearing to hear, because we all make mistakes and to pretend that we're perfect in some ways is not really bringing us any closer. I think we get to explore our humanity together in those moments. And I just really appreciate you sharing that. So here's my gratitude card.

Terry Torok:
Yeah. Double down. True, true. I'll remember that about you, Melanie. I'll also remember how to peel a banana differently.

Melanie Avalon:
I know so many things learned. Also, I'm sending the gratitude carbs back to you as well, because I'm really just feeling all of that for both of you right now. It's just, I really, really appreciate how you guys connect and engage and see people, and see humanity, and share that, and are allowing other people to share that too. This experience was something that happened when my sister and mom and I played. We were like, it was like musical gratitude cards because we were passing them around, so I love it. Thank you guys. Should we do an example of one of the abundance cards?

Sam Sokol:
let's go i'm gonna ask terry to go next if terry are you willing yeah let's go okay let's let's see what those dice reveal and by the way you know these dice can be spun so if you're looking to spin the universe you can spin them like a top whoa whoa whoa whoa yeah you've got to try that hey terry what do you think about melanie spinning dice for you do you think uh maybe she could give you the dice absolutely i trust

Terry Torok:
to you.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm spinning for Terry. Okay. Oh my goodness. Didn't know you could spin them. It's so exciting. The little things. Okay, we got wisdom and some time. Some time wisdom.

Terry Torok:
Thank God it's not that all that time.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. Whoa. Pressure is off. Pressure is off.

Terry Torok:
Not this one.

Sam Sokol:
and you don't even have to call out which time this is you could just all right Terry between five and 131 pick an odd number any odd number that comes to you

Terry Torok:
No, I'll not that on 33.

Sam Sokol:
I like it. All right. The first one was really odd. This question is part of the curiosity character. And it says, who here is most motivated to create change? Oh.

Melanie Avalon:
like out of the three of us or like in the world.

Sam Sokol:
Good question, Terry. Let's let's step into that wisdom. Where are we going with this?

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, this is a tense question.

Terry Torok:
Not like right now, like Melanie, I got a little time off of my wisdom here. I do have an immediate answer, which one of us gets to explore all of us. And I know that we all have capacity for change, but to make that change, we need somebody else. And typically, we need two other people. I have said, and Sam has heard me say this, but if one of us can look out for two of us, then there is enough of us for all of us. So when I think about which one of us, amongst the three of us, is most motivated to change, the fact of the matter is, if Melanie raises her hand, the cemetery will be right behind her and supporting her 100% of the way. So I think between the three of us, which one of us, I think one plus one plus one equals 111. And so I think it is best when it's all of us in concert making that change together and that we communicate that change. So that's my sometimes wisdom answer.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. It's such an appropriate question because I feel like the three of us are also inspired by that mission. It's such a wonderful, beautiful. Yeah, I love it.

Terry Torok:
Yeah. Otherwise, it's a brutal battle to see who had to go and get fun. Park plays. I'm going to make that change. I'm going to win the change. Like, you know, you win all the money and nobody can go to your hotel anymore. Did you really win? You got all the money, you got all those hotels, but you can't. You got like no guests. So Monopoly is really a question to ask. Yeah, you got that hotel all alone. You got no guests. Is that cool? So I like our co-op or co-opily frame, I think.

Sam Sokol:
I really like what you shared, Terry. There are two aspects of it. The question is, who here is most motivated to create change? And it also begs that question, who is here? And maybe even who's not here, right? Who could we invite to be part of this beautiful party? And how do we select them becomes another question. But the who is really cool. And I remember someone saying, you can't synergize alone. And so what you just described is this opportunity to expand the pie and to ask that question. Yeah, who is here? And who do we want to have with us?

Terry Torok:
I love it, Sam. You know, we recently talked about you can never learn less. It's impossible to try to learn less. You can only ever learn more, which is a descriptive of abundance. So also true. Sam, are you up for a question? We gotta, we gotta make the round all the way around. Then we gotta go back to the millenies.

Sam Sokol:
I got that gratitude card for you. So I'm sending that over. And so just add to your pile, man, you got it.

Terry Torok:
And we got to get back to Melanie's nice question about dessert at the gift round. So we'll complete it. Sam, you want to roll your time space, Dyson? Anybody who wants to experience what you're hearing on this podcast, you can go to gradcube.game and get a really cool flavor of what's happening and you can get your own. I will say with great intention that Sam and I intend this to be the most gifted game in 2025. The game is a gift. It's a great gift for others and it's a great gift. And Sam, we're only those time space dice.

Sam Sokol:
I'm going to ask Melanie, if she'd be willing, could you roll maybe half here, maybe spin, spin one or both of them?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, so we have, okay, we have past and wisdom, again, past wisdom now.

Sam Sokol:
Cast Wisdom, interesting, okay. And Terry, if you pull from that abundance, Black Chobra one, what you got there?

Terry Torok:
This is a quote from Deepak Chopra. The best use of imagination is creativity. The worst use of imagination is anxiety. It's a quote from Dr. Deepak Chopra. How do you imagine putting creativity to work for you and or your team? Well, that's really great.

Sam Sokol:
You know, I've shared with you, Terry, before my take on creativity and people around me. I've heard the words like, I made this or I created this and I have a not necessarily unique view, but a different view that I didn't make it or create anything, that the level pieces are already here and I get to assemble them. I believe in manifestation, you know, I can do these things. It's not to say I'm a nerd or something, but it's to say that I don't take credit for having created anything. I think it's everything is a co-creation. So coming from that space and thinking about creativity immediately, it's a creativity. It's a co-creativity. We are co-creating together. And, you know, going back to what Melanie had said earlier, you know, there's there's something about getting into action about something. And when you're you haven't quite made your mind up about something like, oh, do I say it was a glitch on the show or do I say the truth? And you haven't made up your mind. You're stuck in that anxiety. And anxiety is not having made the decision, not moving forward, getting stuck. And I think that co-creation, co-creativity is a way to once you have made up your mind, you go, hey, yep, I didn't click the record button that happened. That's true. That's real. And now what is the next moment we'll co-create together? And so I think of anxiety being that stuckness and creativity being a much bigger frame of like movement and the universe is filled with change and movement. So no wonder that anxiety is this hard place to be because it's so opposite the nature of who we are. We're not meant to be stuck. Right. When that, I think it's the second law of motion says that things that are, you know, stuck is stopped or will stay stopped and things are in motion will stay in motion unless impacted by another force. The flaw there is that nothing is stopped. Right. Everything's moving. Everything's changing. So my sense here is that creativity is our natural state. And we should stay in that. And that's beautiful with with past and wisdom. We're actually able to evolve. The wisdom of the future is learning from that past wisdom of, OK, we all make mistakes. Cool. Now what? How can we evolve from that new understanding that we have?

Terry Torok:
nice. I'm getting you a gratitude card, get you a box, I have your own gratitude cards. And I love, I love what you say about co-creation, which is almost as fun as procreation, but I love that you can do this together, you know.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that, and I have a curiosity card that relates to a question for all of it. So the curiosity card is, is there any action you might take that relates to this? And I'm curious, my hybrid on that question is, so that approach and that mindset, how did you use that to create the abundance version of the game? Especially, you know, collaborating with Deepak, what was that process like?

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, I'd really appreciate that question. Thank you. I would say what first comes to mind is, is resilience. You know, when you said you went to people and you talked to them, they say, what should I do? Here's what happens, you know, that didn't hit record, what should I do? When you're going through a business deal of any kind, there are lots and lots of different details and there are possible hurdles. And there's this challenge, that challenge. It's like, well, what is this preference? How do we, so often we know the what we want to do this game together, but we don't know the how, right? How do we bring this to market? How do we work with such an influential and amazing person like Deepak Chopra? And how do we bring our creativity and this collaboration together? Then you get lawyers involved. And while everyone's saying yes, there's still this question mark around the how. And so for me, the co-creation is to stay with the process. There were moments where the advice I was getting is, hey, that sounds really complicated. You should just change your strategy. You should do this. It's like, I hear you. And yet the intent has always been to find that synergy together. And my answer to you is just to stay in it. Just the action is to not give up. It's so easy, especially in a day and age where things come so quickly and easily. I think there's this almost bias like, oh, it doesn't matter. I don't have to try very hard on this. Another opportunity will just come up. It'll be, you know, and there's this life should be useful and you should be in joy. Absolutely. And when things are difficult, they're maybe not moving in flow. It's to say they probably are still moving in flow. Stay the course. Just kind of double down on what you know to be true. And we know this game is beautiful and it opens people's hearts. So there's never a doubt about wanting to bring this forward. I think it was just an exploration of the how. And it still is. You know, even all that, there's still an exploration and patience and resilience with the how. So it tells.

Terry Torok:
That's how we enrolled Deepak Chopra.

Sam Sokol:
This is a beautiful moment, and it's so cool that you rolled what you rolled today, Melanie, because when we first had the opportunity to show Deepak the prototype of this game, a friend of his was playing on the table, right? So he was talking with Terry and another person on the edge of the table.

Terry Torok:
And imagine we're all at dinner, like 12 of us, and Deepak's late to dinner. So we, Sam does what Sam does. He sent the game down in the middle and somebody goes, what's that? And we all like open the box and boom, we were playing deeply when Deepak walked in.

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, and it was just this joy. And it's such a contagious moment when dice and cards are on the table. And someone's like, I want to play. Is it my turn? So she went for it. She pulled a card. She rolled the dice, and she shared a story. And then she was giggling with delight how much she enjoyed this game. And Deepak looks over, and he says, well, what's going on over here? She says, Deepak, we're playing your game. You should come play it. So that sparked his interest. Terry brought the box over with the cards, and he pulled a card. And the card says, describe success and invite each person playing to share one sentence. And Deepak had rolled joy and now, right? I mean, he's just like, wait a minute. How does any of this happen? Really, he rolled joy and now? And then he pulls the card. He says, the only measure of success is joy. And he could have expanded and expanded and expanded. He had more than one sentence he could have used. He just mic drop this thing right in front of us. And Terry and I are just kind of like, we're the only? Wow, he's an absolute. Is that really kind of pondering? It's like, that's really wise. Is it? But are there any exceptions to that? And then he turns to Terry and he says, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh!

Terry Torok:
We should play this game and get a go on, let's go, yeah. We literally sat in the next day and we were like, let's just 50-50 this, I mean, in essence. And that's our spirit of abundance. And that's a really, you know, it's been a long time. You have a 20-some year relationship with Deepak that typically involves some access to laughing and joy. And he's asked those big giant, you know, he always gets asked the big questions, the big questions of life. We have an opportunity to get, you know, silly together and that's always been good.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. So that dinner going into it, was there an intention to collaborate with him or did it come from that moment?

Terry Torok:
We were open, we kind of knew, we created the prototype, a prototype for a different book that we read. And so we're like, well, let's just customize, let's put some wild cards and customize a game that's around Deepak. And so we like that formula. We put wild cards to use. And we've had a chance to play with some really interesting people from Goldie Hawn to, well, many others that, you know, and trust builds and intimacy builds and scales in a way that you didn't see coming.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah, this is so incredible. Oh my goodness. For listeners, so they can get the Gradicube, I'm making sure I say it correctly, Gradicube version of the game now, and I'll go ahead and give listeners because I'm sure they're antsy to get their own version, and you were saying you had the goal to make it one of the top gifts. This makes an incredible gift. For me personally, my leveling which is gift-giving, so I'm always looking for the gifts, and this is just one that, it's just great to have in your back pocket is there any gifts for people? Give them one of these games. So for listeners, if you go to www.gradicube.game/melanieavalon, so that's graticube, G-R-A-T-I-C-U-B-E dot game/melanieavalon, that will auto-populate a coupon code for 20% off, which is so, so incredible. On top of that, if you just go to the website and want to directly put the code in, the code will be A-V-20. So gradicube.game/Melanie Avalon will auto-populate the code A-V-20 for 20% off. And thank you guys both so, so much for that. And actually I had a question about that because I think when people hear abundance, they think material things. I don't wanna make assumptions, but I know for me, I'll just talk about me. For me, historically, when I heard the word abundance, I would think of finances. I think of finances. And even the subtitle of Deepak's book is Abundance, The Inner Path to Wealth. Reading his book though was so eye-opening and I realized abundance is a state of awareness. It's not how much money you have in the bank. He goes into how abundance colors so much of our lives and how we can move towards that and the relationship to the different chakras. And it was a really, really wonderful book to read. And we talked about the concept of creative intelligence. And we were talking about creativity earlier. So all that to say, my question is with the book, how much did you experience that question of would there be any focus in the game on certain types of abundance? So like financial abundance versus other types of abundance. And also, how do you decide how to price the game? I know you recently have switched to a nonprofit. So I'm really curious about that.

Terry Torok:
Yes, you asked a question about money and abundance. And the answer is, it includes money, financing. Yes, it embraces wide the mindset of abundance. And even in the book, it asks, what would you hope the money to do? So when you get into the root question of, if you had more money, where would you put it? So when you think about a couple of things, even in the game, we circulate gratitude cards and curiosity cards. You get two each. And as long as you keep them circulating, you always have enough. D-PAQ talks about currency the same way. Money currency the same way. If you keep it circulating, there is enough. And that circulation and abundance is true, too. We drill in deeper and ask, with D-PAQ, what would you like to use that money for if money is your way to speak into what it is you want to do, what might be that greater purpose? And as D-PAQ says, the only measure of success is joy as a buying you more joy. And so how can you use a little currency or a lot of currency potentially buy more joy and get more purpose and help circulate that joy and purpose around? In what you just said, we also purposely switched to a 501c3. So we're a not-for-profit, but that means why we did that is so that we could align with other not-for-profits so that they can use our game as a fundraiser. So they can buy our game in bulk and use it as our Girl Scout cookies. A little healthier, it's certainly vegan friendly, it all works. But the joy that's inside this box as a fundraiser or something that you want to manifest as a 501c3 is important to us. So that's our way to spread more joy, more abundance, and more opportunity. And if that's measured in money, so be it. If it's measured in joy, awesome. If it's circulated, perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
When did you make that change to the nonprofit?

Sam Sokol:
That was last year, and I want to say it was right around April. And, of course, you have to submit to your state and the federal government. And they take about a year to approve you. So in our state, we were accepted automatically last year in April. And then it was about this year, April, the federal government said, oh, yeah, yeah. We'll say that, too. You're a nonprofit. So we received our letter. I want to say two more things about what Terry just said, which is which is really I think he's explained it beautifully as he always does. And looking at the opportunity to say, what is abundance to us? And when you have what I think a lot of people are experiencing is anxiety and depression and loneliness, it doesn't feel good to feel abundant personally when the people around you aren't feeling that same abundance. And so one of the other things we do as a nonprofit is we facilitate this game for groups and even at our launch, we had somewhere around 150 people playing. And one box per table. So it's, you know, for four people or so playing per table. And it's one of those ways when we've asked about intimacy and how do you how do you develop intimacy and some people like intimacy? Do you mean sex? And it's like, no, you know, sure, sex can be intimate, but also friendships can be intimate. You can share intimate details about your life. You can find that closeness. If there's if there's trust, you can find that way to be vulnerable with each other and share the intimate details of your life. And so then you have this world that sort of says, well, we've got to scale everything. That's the answer. We'll scale. Then we'll have an abundance. Well, maybe that abundance is great for Zuckerberg because he's figured out how to scale your friends, right, which are no longer your friends because if you're on Facebook and you want to message all your friends, they say, well, we'll let you message some of them, but we'll charge you five dollars to boost that post. You go, I thought these were my friends. And so even to that question of who can I be intimate with? Who are the people I can be close to opening up that question of scaling intimacy? It's all kind of sounds dirty, right? It's like, who's scale intimacy? So I really want to scale intimacy with 100 people. And yet in a room of 150, we can find a way per box for people at a time. And so maybe you find that you can scale intimacy with your family. Maybe you find you can scale intimacy with your partner and just find that that depth of connection. So abundance is there and one of my favorite quotes from the book. And I just want to also give you a gratitude card for the preparation that you do for the for the show. And the fact that you read that book was just like, wow, that's so cool. And abundance is our natural birthright. And that really stood out to me. It's like, yes, there's this abundance. Nature is most abundant and efficient, which is the fun thing to try to reconcile. But ultimately, that's our birthright. So how do we get out of our own way in a way to do that and to be intimate with our friends?

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, I share the gratitude, again, card right back to you for exposing me to that book and that work, because I actually, I'm embarrassed that I hadn't read any of Deepak's books before, and it was a really wonderful one to start with, because I think I told you guys this on the call before, but I made a really conscious decision. I think about two or three years ago where I decided, I was like, I'm just going to have an abundance mindset. I'm just going to do it and see what happens. It honestly has been one of the most helpful things for me in my life personally, and there's so much stickiness there, because I think there's a lot of fear surrounding scarcity versus abundance, and also that I think there's a lot of guilt around the concept of abundance. There's this idea that if you are seeking or welcoming abundance, that means you're wanting a lot or taking resources from other people, and I think just having a complete reframe there is so incredible, at least for me personally, and so reading that book was, I'm just, thank you for A, thank you for exposing me to it, B, thank you for taking the themes of it and creating this new game, where you're viscerally and experientially sharing that concept with people. You're actually creating it through people who are using the game as a catalyst to create it, because I think the topics can often seem a little bit nebulous, or you're just thinking about them. But the game allows you to actually experience them, so I can't thank you guys enough for what you're doing.

Terry Torok:
Melanie, on page 205, Deepak says, an everyday situation is getting out of the way, begins by giving up on the ego's fantasy. For $1 million, what is the next sentence?

Melanie Avalon:
getting out of the way, sorry, is giving up on the ego's fantasy? Wait, can you read it one more time?

Terry Torok:
in everyday situations, getting out of the way begins by giving up on the ego's fantasies. There's eight seconds left.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. Is it something about what those fantasies are?

Terry Torok:
Well, it is your ego harbors childish and selfish dreams of getting what it wants all of the time by whatever it means necessary. Even if you hold yourself back from extreme selfish behavior, you are under the influence of these feudal fantasies generally without knowing it. Had you known that, Melanie, on page 205, you would have had a million dollars with an abundant opportunities, but I thank you for playing and I know you did your research, but I am messing with you just because I do appreciate you did your research and I know you got to 205 because you had cited all those beautiful quizzes that he puts in the book. And so when Sam and I go through a book and we mind map it, one of the things that we do that's pretty fun is we'll come up with like 200 different questions from the book. And then we got to get it down to like 64. And to measure how to get to the 64 is there has to be, you know, there's a scorecard is like, is this a fun question to be confronted with? Is it fun to answer? And is it meaningful? And in essence, is it meaningful fun? And can it be resolved in a quick fun like question? And so all of that said, we promised to tell you about the gift round.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I was just thinking about that. I was like, we didn't discuss that round.

Terry Torok:
So now worth much more than a million dollars.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man, I have a chance to catch you back up.

Terry Torok:
much more than a million dollars. We get the gift round. So to explain the gift round, I know you played for the listeners earlier when I think you played Curiositor, but there is eight characters in the game. And so for listeners who have made it this far, they could be Curiositors themselves. They could have become self-aware, purveyors of love, storytellers, appreciantos, inspirator listeners, or even a facilitator, as you beautifully are, Melanie. So that said, in the end of the round, we look to these gift cards, and we think about how people just showed up in this conversation, in this podcast. And what we would do is from those eight cards, we would select a card for ourself, a gift for ourself first. We're like, how did I show up in the game? Was I, what one of these eight characters was I? And I would put that face down in front of me. So for you, Melanie, you would simply look at one of the eight, and you'd take a card and place it face down in front of you. So you'll notice there's eight different colors, seven linked to the shock rooms, one linked to meta, which is the listener. And you would choose a card and place it down in front of you.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is actually really helpful because we were trying to figure this out. So when we were playing the gameplay earlier, when people are playing the gameplay and you presumably do eight story cards and then you discard them into a discard pile and then that is the pile of eight cards that you're speaking of.

Sam Sokol:
So if you if you look in front of you, you'll see there is a reference card. So tell me if you can find that reference cards as listener, I guess listener, inspirator. So we use the cards as a way to hand over that. But you can use reference card to figure out, oh, what do you want to give to each person, right, how much you choose to choose that card for yourself? So this is just a quick way. But then you grab any one of the cards that are face up. And if you if you, for example, thought Terry was a great appreciative, right, then you would say, OK, let me find one of those story cards that says appreciative on the bottom of it. And now you would take that card and pass it to him in front on his little pile, he'll have one for himself. He'll have other cards he's receiving from other people. And then the one you give him, you'll give face down that says appreciative at the bottom. And so when it's his turn, then he'll get a chance to see, oh, I got this card from you and I gave this card to myself and and carry on Terry from there. But that's that's how we typically do it as we use the story cards face up as a way to share that character with that person.

Terry Torok:
You can pull them from anywhere, Melanie, as long as you look from the eight cards. So if there's four of you playing, you would end up with four cards in front of you, and the bottom card would be the one you chose for yourself. In our particular case, there's three of us playing. So each of us right now will have three cards in front of us. So what you can do is, because we're not actually together, which is cool, we can pick the three cards at one I want for Sam, one I want for Melanie, one I want for myself, which I have done, you could do the same. You got your cards in front of you, Melanie, and Sam, you have your cards.

Sam Sokol:
So let's start with you and what we'll do, Melanie, is you choose a card for yourself, just choose any one of those characters. You don't have to, if you don't wanna find a card, you can just choose one of the characters you wanna have for yourself. And then Terry and I are both gonna choose a character for you. And when you're ready, you can start sharing which character you picked and why, share with us how you picked that character for yourself.

Melanie Avalon:
I think I will choose inspiration because I'm, it relates to the crown chakra and I know and this concept of knowledge and I'm always really, really seeking that. So I think I will do that one.

Sam Sokol:
Beautiful Terri, you want to tell her which card you chose for her, which character?

Terry Torok:
I was battling between two cards for you, Nonny. Many, many, many apply. You're a fantastic listener. Thank you. Your questions come from a great place of curiosity. And you've also expressed your appreciation, which led me to around Prussianado. But then I landed on two. And the two cards were between facilitator and purveyor of love. And the facilitator is one who invites some or all other players to share as you do so beautifully, not just on this podcast, but your previous ones and sharing and hearing the story about you and your mom. And you're the one that facilitates game night. But there was a card that just rose above it. And it is a green card. It is the purveyor of love who enjoys connection, giving, and receiving more love. So for you, I chose the purveyor of love.

Melanie Avalon:
And so in the gameplay, are you giving me the the card that is a purveyor of love card or you're sharing?

Terry Torok:
Right. The Purveyor of Love card. And so now before you, you have your card that you chose for yourself. You have Purveyor of Love, and then you're about to be revealed with Sam's card, which he is now going to tell you about.

Sam Sokol:
So in the game, what we would do with all of these cards, you'll notice at the top, it's a story, then there's a prompt and then there's a character. And so where we had in the first round paid attention to just the prompt and then a little bit of attention to that character and how we might be guided through that particular character, now we're really only paying attention to the bottom of the card. So in front of you, if we were playing the game, you would have that inspirator card with whatever question was, but we wouldn't be looking at the question. And then you'd have a purveyor of love from Terry. And then you would have another card for me and similar to Terry, you represent this rainbow of color for me. So it's so fun to see the openness and those shockers as I perceive you. And I was really torn between self-aware and inspirator, but I think they both sort of, they build on each other because, the card I have for you is inspirator, but the self-awareness that you have is so high, it's so deep and it's just, it's amazing to feel that level of expression from you so that you can be so inspirational. So I feel like that's a beautiful base to share your knowledge and it's fun to watch and be part of.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. Now, okay, now I'm understanding this part of the game. Okay, so it's about it's about going through and seeing what you see in yourself and what others see in you when it comes to these different aspects of our of our being and sharing that with them.

Terry Torok:
A lot of breakthroughs happen at this moment. Melanie, we've played with people that had admitted that they thought that they were always, one of their qualities was a good listener. In the game, everybody gave him storyteller. They were like, oh, that was a breakthrough for that particular person who thought he was going to receive listener cards and which was cool because in many ways, that moment is a gift to go, oh, this is honestly how other people see me in this moment in time. Even if we're just meeting for the first time, it's like, oh, cool. So the next time you play, you may choose to attempt to play different. Unlike an Enneagram or disk that locks you into a certain personality, you can develop all eight of the characters and as you know well, you can activate all seven of your chakras and even the meta as listener. So this game allows you to go, oh, cool. That's how people just saw me with gratitude and curiosity in this moment. What would it be like when I play tomorrow? What will it be like when I play with my friends or my family? How will they see me and how might I be able to change the way I see myself and others see me at any given moment?

Melanie Avalon:
I love that I can so see that I'm just thinking for example now because like when I first met you Sam the one I felt the most in that moment in time was probably and it might have had to have done with the nature of our conversations but it was the purveyor of love and the giving and receiving and because I literally every time you popped into my head I just I had these feelings of gratitude and love and I was like he just embodies that and it's you know very clear that he's creating you know this game to create all of it and that's still there and you speak of the rainbow and I see I see the rainbow in both of you guys completely and like in this game for example I got a lot more of the side of you for the probably the the curiosity and the the idea of the non-judgmental what if because you shared so many stories about this idea of what was possible and being completely open to what came from that with no judgment so like right in the beginning with your story about how you decided not to speak for you know a week and seeing how you know seeing what came from that and then when you're talking later about co-creating and you know just seeing where things go so I got you know a lot of that from you in this game and I want to tell Terri as well but now I feel like I'm just taking over and I'm just going rogue but but Terri one of the ones that I am really getting a lot from you in this game is definitely the probably that as well oh I'm saying as well because Sam was saying that he was thinking a part of me was the self-aware but I get a lot of that from you the solar plexus and the aha moments because you're just such an innovator and you and you have provided so much knowledge and wisdom of these things to think about I mean even when you're answering the question earlier about about the wisdom and you're throwing in all of this you know like math analogies and everything like it's just like a constant stream of oh and then you know think about this idea and this idea and I really really appreciate both of you guys and I thank you now because you're showing me what it's like to apply these these rainbow colors in real life to people I love it thank you

Terry Torok:
Thank you, Melanie. That's really cool. And thank you for offering your listeners the opportunity to play the most gifted game. And we're just so grateful to you that we wanted to make sure all your listeners got a deep discount so they can go deep and play with their friends or turn perfect strangers into fast friends.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, so thank you guys both so much. Again, for listeners, you can go to www.gradicube.game/Melanie Avalon and or use the coupon code AV20 to get 20% off. I cannot recommend enough getting Gradicube now and then definitely look for the new abundance version with Deepak Chopra, which is so exciting in November. Actually, the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and we're, you know, like 300 something episodes in, I think. And it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So what is something this is literally the question that I ask every guest, what is something that you're grateful for?

Sam Sokol:
I wonder, first we had an enclosed loop from about your mom. Your mom had some words for us, and I wonder if we could jump just for a moment and if there was something she had about the game that we might want to address.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. Yeah, actually, I think I mentioned most of it throughout. It was basically that I think she was wanting more rules or clarity or like, you know, this is the way you play the game and this is the outcome. And so it was kind of it was an experience to to realize that it could be played different ways. And this is really helpful that we went through this part about the characters because we wanted to play that round and did not get to it because we're confused. So now I'm going to be able to bring it back to her. But the way it ended at the end was literally she ended by saying, I want to play again, please tell them that.

Terry Torok:
Well, I have mine then. I am most grateful to your mom for the desire of clarity. Sam and I both run a clarity process. Anybody can check it out at TheRealCIA.com, but we run a clarity process. So I'm grateful to your mom twice. A for her desire, well, maybe three times, her desire of adventure, her desire of clarity, and having you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. What's the website?

Terry Torok:
I tell you, it's the real CIA.

Melanie Avalon:
TheRealCAA.com, that's brilliant, must go there now.

Terry Torok:
Did you let you say the words creative intelligence appear a lot and we were inspired by a conversation with Deepak Chopra on creative intelligence. So we were like, we should become, we love the playfulness and we love creative intelligence agency. And we learned that when you call yourself CIA, a lot of those URLs are taken by our friends in Langley in Washington DC and they kind of protect that CIA brand, but you know, one slipped by and we found it in the real CIA.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you on their list now? Like, you gotta watch these people with that domain. On the town low, yep.

Sam Sokol:
We put them on our list and we're watching too.

Terry Torok:
They do nice work. They feel that they're central. And I think that's important for them to feel central. But we choose creative intelligence agency, and they choose to be central. And that feels good for them, and so good for them.

Melanie Avalon:
Get them some, um, some gratitude gains.

Terry Torok:
So we're the realciate.com and we're really grateful to be on your show.

Sam Sokol:
Yeah, grateful to be on your show. For me, the gratitude, Melanie, is having met you. You know, the first moment that I met you, I thought, this person is awesome. And each new moment that I get to know you, I realized that's just becoming more and more true. And I'm learning more about you and some of our shared synchronicities or shared path to make the world work for everyone. So I'm excited that we get to play together and that we get to be playful in life and that we get to share this light that we all have to make life a little better.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, again, I echo all of that back at you. Thank you both so much. Thank you for what you're doing, for your time. It's just so inspiring for humanity. I can't wait for listeners to get this game for themselves and play it with their friends, their family, with strangers, all the things, any other links you would like to put out there for people to best follow everything and stay up to date.

Terry Torok:
You can go right to gratitude gaming find everything you need to do right there and course discount thanks to you that's good for us play on. Play it forward.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you guys both so much and hopefully we can meet some time in real life and play a game, play this in real life. That'd be amazing.

Sam Sokol:
100%.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, have a good rest of your day.

Sam Sokol:
Okay, you too, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye!