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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #287 -  Melanie Petschke

Melanie Petschke is a board-certified family nurse practitioner with a passion for disease prevention. She has spent over a decade studying the emerging research surrounding the potential health implications of environmental toxin exposure. She feels quality nutrition, exercise, and other proactive preventative behaviors are important to health, but ultimately living a lifestyle that reduces the cumulative toxic burden to the body is a critical wellness component. Melanie’s education and perspective surrounding body burden resulted in the development of Crunchi’s stringent safety standards. From formulation to packaging, she is known for her meticulous determination to achieve clean, high-performing, sustainable products without compromising.

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Featured Products: 

I AM Polished® Facial Exfoliator

Goldenlight® Multi-Peptide Facial Serum

Daylight® Facial Cream

Shattered® Mascara

Beautifully Flawless Foundation

Sunlight® Tinted SPF 30 


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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)


Melanie Avalon

friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have. It is a long time coming and oh my goodness, this has such a backstory leading up to this. So as you guys know, I am majorly obsessed with and passionate about safe skincare and makeup. I talk about it all the time. There's just so much craziness in the cosmetic and skincare industry that is shocking once your eyes are opened. And ever since I've discovered the importance of this, I've been on the hunt for safe brands and makeup and skincare that actually works. And as you guys know, I was working with Beauty Counter for a long, long time. I love Beauty Counter. I adore Beauty Counter. I still do.  They temporarily were, it was a whole drama thing, but they dissolved and they're back a little bit right now. But in any case when that happened, it was kind of like a miniature panic moment because they were my go-to brand that had all the things and I really trusted them with safety. And so I was kind of left in this hole of what do I do now? And I have to find some more safe skincare brands. And so I went on the hunt and not that I'm happy that happened with Beauty Counter, but, and at the same time, that is how I found this incredible brand called Crunchy and oh my goodness friends. So it's C-R-U-N-C-H-I Crunchy. And these standards of this company are so incredible. I was blown away. And what's really cool is they have a lot of products that are kind of a similar swap that you can do if you have existing Beauty Counter products. Basically, it was a really nice transition for people to kind of swap over their products and fill that hole. But in any case, it literally was blown away by all the standards in this company and the quality of the products and how incredible they are. And you guys are loving them. I'm hearing that daily from everybody. And so I was dying to interview the incredible people behind this company. And that's why I am here today with Melanie Petschke, a fellow Melanie, which is exciting. And she is the co-founder of Crunchy and she knows her stuff. She is a board certified family nurse practitioner with a passion for disease prevention. And she spent over a decade studying emerging research surrounding the potential health implications of environmental toxin exposure, which is like I said, and we will talk about one of the main issues with safe skincare and makeup or with skincare makeup that's not safe, I should say. So Melanie, first of all, thank you so much for creating Crunchy because you are changing so many lives. And thank you so much for being here right now with me today.

 Melanie Petschke

Absolutely. It is an absolute pleasure, and I'm so excited to dive into some of these topics because just from the caliber of the types of topics we want to discuss, I can tell that you have an incredibly savvy audience and group, so I'm thrilled to be here.  Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon

Yes. Thank you. And yeah, they, they love it. I love it. So we are all here for it.  So I have so many questions for you. Honestly, like the second I found crunchy with beauty counter, you actually weren't able to interview people from the company on the show just because of their policies. So when I found crunchy, I was like, Oh my goodness, maybe, maybe I can actually interview somebody from the company. So this is really, really exciting for me. So to start things off, your personal story, what queued you in to the issue with environmental toxins today, and in particular skincare and makeup. Did you ever think you would land here with what you're doing?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, no, and that's a really common question I get because it's a very serendipitous series of events. But I actually, a lot of people find it surprising that in my training as a family nurse practitioner, I did not learn any of this, which is very eye-opening and not surprising when you kind of understand the history of cosmetics in general in the United States.  But it was not until I was pregnant with my first child, my son, who is now 13 and a half, oh my goodness, that I started down this path and really starting to pay attention to more of the chemicals just in our environment, you know, what I was bringing into my house in terms of food, really making good choices in terms of organic produce and non-GMO foods and making sure that I was looking at preservatives and things in certain foods. So that kind of kicked it off and living in the city of Seattle at the time, it was definitely in an environment where this was being encouraged naturally just among some colleagues. And then after my son was born, I participated in a group called First Weeks and it was essentially a mom's group where we were able to sit around with our babies and just talk about all sorts of topics. And it was actually led by a master's prepared nurse at the time. And I remember there was this one day when I was sitting there and a gal raised her hand and she said, has anybody here found a clean mascara or say, I think she's in safe mascara. She said, I have scoured the EWG website and I have tried every one of them on there. I just am not happy with the performance of any of them. Does anyone have a suggestion? And I sat there with my notebook and I wrote down what she said, because I was like, what is this woman talking about? What is she talking about? Why is she asking this? And so that night I went home and I went down this rabbit hole on the cosmetic side. Because despite the fact that our skin is our largest organ, other than sunscreen and maybe deodorant, I had not even really gone there in my mind. And so when I started looking through this and had that realization that the FDA is not doing the protection of consumers that I had assumed it was doing, I was horrified and shocked. So I really kicked off my journey and I just couldn't I couldn't learn enough at that point. And I think it was so frustrating being in health care where disease prevention and health promotion are so critical and the foundation of why I chose that career. And to know that not a single word of this was ever discussed in my training was really upsetting. And then also to having patients that would come in with fresh out of chemotherapy and radiation and not a single word had been spoken, not just about nutrition, but about skincare and about what products they were using on their bodies, their skin, their large skin or just organ. So I really definitely fueled my interest and passion for the topic. And then it kind of progressed from there.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really glad you filled that need with the mascara because the crunchy mascara is, it's the best mascara I've ever used. Like actually, normally I would have to like combine mascaras together to like get the perfect mascara. I, this, yeah, the shattered mascara is amazing. I love it.  Thank you for sharing that. It's like a one-stop shop, which is amazing.

 Melanie Petschke

I love hearing that.

Melanie Avalon

You mentioned the sunscreen and deodorant you heard about with their potential for toxicity. Why do you think those are the two things that got focused on?  Are they substantially more toxic than everything else?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, that's an excellent question. And I think because sunscreens in general have been under scrutiny since the beginning of time because you have the two categories. You've got your mineral sunscreens and then you've got your chemical sunscreens. And I think people maybe naturally heard the word chemical and it got their attention perhaps. And then there was definitely, I know, but when it comes to sunscreens based on the fact that they're technically considered a drug regulated by the FDA, I do believe perhaps there was probably more media attention pointing to these questions that people were raising. Again, I personally, it was one of the first things that I ever paid attention to as a consumer. For some reason, I didn't think about anything else. I hadn't thought about necessarily laundry detergent yet or anything like that or lotion, but for some reason, sunscreens definitely got my attention.  So that's an excellent question. And then I know the debate about deodorant has been going on since I was, I mean, as long as I can remember, my mom, even just as a teen, would every year gift me one of those rock salt deodorants and try to convince me to change, which is so funny to me. And I would fight with her because I would say, it just doesn't work, it doesn't work. Are there other options or just, I would kind of thank her but gift it right back because I just knew I couldn't wear it. So I think the fact that aluminum has had attention, the fact that the place where we put our deodorant is such a vulnerable part of our body. And I think people automatically think lymph nodes, they think breast cancer, they think that upper outer quadrant that is known for having the most amount of cancer. And I think they kind of draw their own level of suspicion or conclusions from that. So that would be my guess as to why those two, but it's been so, it has carried through and been very consistent in consumer behavior in general. I call it, I call them gateway products because once someone starts to pay attention to those two, then the rest just kind of falls into place because they recognize that it's not just, it's so much more than a chemical sunscreen or so much more than aluminum and an deodorant. And of course there's many other ingredients in deodorant that are concerning, but that I believe is why those two got the most attention early on.

Melanie Avalon

I just find it interesting because I hadn't really thought about this before, but there's all this awareness and concern with aluminum and deodorant, a metal. But then people aren't aware that lead, which is a really problematic metal, is super high in lipstick. But there's just zero awareness about that. And we're putting that on our mouth where we're talking about vulnerable places on our body. We're probably swallowing it, so it's just so interesting.  So when you have this epiphany and realization, I mean, it's a big journey to launch a company and create products. What was that timeline and that experience? Was it more challenging than you thought?

 Melanie Petschke

I moved to Florida. We crossed the country from Seattle. It was actually from my husband's job at the time. I was working full-time as a nurse practitioner. Then I had my, and I kind of continued my own research throughout this time. And I just kept adding to my collection. At this point, I was making my own deodorant in my KitchenAid mixer in my kitchen. And then I had friends that were asking me for samples of it and for gifts. And then I would get this growing list of requests. Pretty funny.  And eventually I just started giving out the recipe because I was like, I can't keep up with this. But I was working or so I had my second child. So I had my daughter and I had planned on going back to work at least part-time pretty quickly after she was born right around like the four or six month mark. But I got to that place and I just was not ready to go back yet.  And she'd had some GI challenges. And so I made the choice to prolong that. And I stayed at home. And while I was at home, I had a lot of time on my hands and I ended up finding a clean company that had home products and cleaning products. And they actually had a makeup line also, a skincare line. And I ended up being a consultant for that company for a short time. And it was interesting because the company had some great products, but they also had a cosmetic line. But it was so bad that I would not even reference it or talk about it with customers because I did not want them to feel any sort of bias to the rest of the products. And so I just ignored anyone to talk about it. And that seemed to be the theme.  So when I eventually met... So Kelly and I met Kelly's the other co-founder of Crunchy Kelly, Kreuzler. And when we met, we were right in the same stage of life. We were both having this realization, growing our families and starting to pay attention to the things in our environment. I had the healthcare background from a patient side. She also was in healthcare, but on the pharmaceutical side, which is always kind of ironic and interesting. And she'd also had some infertility and some cancer in her family. So she was very aware of environmental toxins and was also learning. And so we worked together and were actually using this opportunity as a platform to educate in our community about this topic. And so we would set up at a vegan cafe downtown Stewart, and we would have little workshops where we would teach people about this information. And it was kind of how we started.  And then at one point, that company got acquired by another company. And pretty much all of the products that we loved ended up either changing or being dissolved. And it was actually Kelly's idea. Because at this point, we just could not find a clean cosmetic company that we were happy with. And specifically makeup is what I'm referring to. We could not find a clean foundation to save our lives. Mascara was challenging. So the list was so long. So she got the crazy idea and said, you know, we cannot find this. This doesn't exist. Let's create our own. And I thought she was out of her mind because we both had a two-year-old and a four-year-old each at the same time at this moment.

 Melanie Petschke

And I was trying to picture how this would work exactly. But I also am incredibly entrepreneurial and I love challenges. So it really didn't take long before she convinced me because she's definitely more of the go-getter, do it scared, jump before you're ready type. And I am much more the calculated one. But she got me there.  So I said, okay, let's do it. We definitely had, we learned two things very quickly. Number one thing we learned is holy smokes, there's a reason that nobody's doing this. Because incredibly challenging. We also learned very quickly how much of the need there was. I mean, it became apparent since pre-launch, it was apparent. And then from day one of launch, it just took off from there. And then we just continued to grow and grow. So when we launched, we actually launched out of Kelly's home office and guest bedroom. Her guest bedroom was our fulfillment center. We would have porch pickups on her front porch. We did not even have a website when we launched. We had a landing page you could go to. And then we had some paper order forms or you could call us to place an order. And then eventually, of course, we had a website and grew and grew and grew from there.  Wait, so what year was that? That was in 2016, January 2016. So we're coming up on our ninth anniversary this January.

Melanie Avalon

Crazy and what products did you launch with originally?

 Melanie Petschke

So the number one product that was the most critical to us and really the reason that we launched Crunchy was foundation. At the time we had tried so many different brands and that was the time in life when we learned the true definition of a green washer. So for those that don't know that term in current days, basically a green washer is someone that or brand that can look like somehow is perceived that it's a cleaner or safer ingredient brand. But when you dive deep and look closer at the ingredient list, there's definitely some holes and some questions and doesn't end up always being the case.  So we were in a position where we thought we had found a solution and what it turned out to be is there was one or two products in the line that met our standards. But then when we started to look closer at all of the products, that's where we were fooled and we were so frustrated with that. So we knew that if we were going to do this, we were absolutely going to do it right and we were not going to be, we were going to draw a very, very hard line in the sand and not cross that line. And that's really what we've stuck to.

Melanie Avalon

That's ambitious to start with foundation because it requires, I'm assuming like all the different shades.

 Melanie Petschke

Yes, absolutely. And I don't think we thought that part through.

Melanie Avalon

I'm just thinking I would not start with foundation.

 Melanie Petschke

I'm going to be totally honest. I remember sitting back thinking like, why did we not think how complicated it would be, especially as a new brand. So it was very challenging because we wanted to offer 100 shades. But of course, in the beginning, we scaled that up shade-wise as fast as we possibly could because we wanted to be inclusive, of course.  So that was something that definitely made it more challenging, but something we were on top of right away because we saw the need and of course, we're not a brand even today that has 60 or 100 shades of foundation, but we have managed to find such a solid formula with some undertones that are very, very chameleon-like or forgiving that we actually are able to manage even just without having to have the high numbers that you maybe would find in some of the larger or more conventional brands. But of course, we are always have our wish list. I mean, we already have our next shades planned. We just have to grow to get there as we continue to expand and fill needs between shades so people aren't having to mix them and fill needs for undertones that maybe don't work with more of a neutral undertone. So yeah, definitely a challenge.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I have a lot of questions, obviously, about your standards and everything, but maybe we can talk a little bit about the problem first and how deep it goes. First of all, skincare and makeup in the US. Why do you think it's not regulated? And just how bad is the problem? How toxic are these products?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah. So my understanding of the history of it all is it kind of happened by accident. There was a lot of innovation happening at a point in the United States where chemical companies were producing new ingredients, new chemicals, and they were finding uses for them all over the place in consumer goods. And consumers had demand, so they wanted products that lasted longer, products that were brighter, products that would stay on all day or have a smoother application. So it was basically companies were responding to what consumers were asking for. And then slowly over time, this list of chemical ingredients that was available for cosmetics grew and grew and grew. And at that point, there was, and even still today, very, very, very little regulation on that growing list of chemicals. So we're talking like in the 80,000s of ingredients that can technically legally be put in a color cosmetic or a skincare product or a consumer product in general. And like I said, very, very little regulation. And I don't think at any point, anyone stopped to say, number one, what is this exactly? And what is it doing to my health long-term? How much of this is actually getting ingested or absorbed or affecting my body? And I think it just continued to go on that trajectory. And I think also because of that, because it had been going on for so many decades, I don't think any, I genuinely don't think that people thought that there was any concern because if it was on the shelf, of course, it was FDA approved is was their assumption. But that was not accurate. There had been, majority of ingredients had not been tested and have not been tested. Certain combinations have been tested and long-term health effects still also. That is my understanding as to how we got into this mess in the first place.  And similar things happened with food. I mean, food in America is a hot mess. And I think many people are slowly becoming aware of that, but similar to food, people just don't think about it. They don't stop and say, what is making that drink blow in the dark? And why is that Mac and cheese so bright? That's the part that's just consumer behavior and it's companies trying to sell really good products. And that is a nightmare combination over time.

Melanie Avalon

It's like it sort of has to be really in your face sometimes for people to think about it. You mentioned the glow in the dark stuff. And I remember when I was little, cause my mom was not super intense about any of this stuff. Like, you know, the chemicals and toxins in food, but she would say, randomly she would like focus on like just a few things like blue Kool-Aid, she was not about. And she was like, if it's that blue, like what is it doing to your inside?  It's like turning you blue. But it took like blue Kool-Aid to like realize that there might be a problem compared to, you know, it's really rampant and everything. I've heard that like, at least when we eat something, our body is accustomed to, you know, the majority of our immune system is in our gut. It's like set up to, you know, detox and like look for bad nefarious things coming in compared to the skin. I don't know that there's necessarily that system in place. And so how much of these compounds actually get into our bloodstream from our skin?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And you definitely want to recognize and be a savvy consumer and know that there's false information on this topic floating around out there. So if you ever hear somebody say 100% of what you put on your skin gets absorbed into your bloodstream, that is inaccurate for sure. And I actually think it causes harm to the industry because it's, it's just perpetuating false, false information.  But the reality is yes, absolutely. As you can imagine, you know, in medicine, they create topical medications and they create patches and transdermal methods of, of medication administration because it bypasses the digestive system. It bypasses the gut and it gets into the bloodstream in a more effective way for certain compounds, for certain, you know, ingredients, pharmaceuticals, whatever the medication is. So similar to that, what you put on your skin also bypasses that system. And depending on many factors can absolutely get into your bloodstream and affect your body. One of the first studies and one of the studies that seems to be cited quite often was done, cause I dug deep. I was like, where did this stat come from? It was the one that had to do with a 60% absorption and the number of seconds. So I dug, dug, dug. And what I found is there was a study done on the VOC levels found in water and how that was being absorbed in the skin of humans and they were able to measure that. And that was where some of the first awareness came from. Just as one example, a good reminder why also water filters are important.

Melanie Avalon

I think people just really don't think about this with the absorption. And to clarify with that, we were talking about all of these compounds that are allowed in conventional skincare and makeup.  So when we say allowed, is it basically that anything's allowed unless it's proven to be not allowed? How does that work? Can anything go?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah. So this is kind of in the middle of evolving, but until very recently there was, you could count on just over two hands how many chemicals were actually regulated or restricted band in products in the United States, which is incredibly terrifying. And then what's happening is there's been some slow movement for the first time in over 80 years, you know, since 1938. That was the last time the FDA had attended the modern, the Food and Drug Act, which is terrifying. And it was only a few pages long to begin with. And so the most recent, I guess, change, I would say to that there's, there's two is a combination of two things. Number one is there is what's called Mocha. So the Modernization of Cosmetics Regulation Act. And this was something that was enacted in the end of 2022 and then has slowly kind of rolled out over time. And initially there was this massive celebration. Everybody was so excited. Finally, we were making change and we were going to be able to protect consumers so they don't need a PhD. And I go in order to go shopping at the grocery store. And then what happened is as we started to slowly learn exactly what that meant, I think, or we got a little bit or a lot deflated and let down because the reality is, is while it's great to be making change, it still has so far to go.  And then another thing that's interesting is that we're starting to see states start to pick up the slack where the FDA on a federal level is, is not really moving fast enough. So now this is going to be interesting because there are many states that have really stepped up what their own state regulations are. And if you're a cosmetic company and you're selling to the entire United States and one state says, no, you may not have PFAS in your cosmetics and they're banned now. And another state is, you know, has a list of a longer list of ingredients that you cannot use. And then we've got California with Prop 65 that's continuing to grow as well. That is going to move things, I think, even faster because depending on how they are enforcing this and depending on how this goes, I think cosmetic companies are definitely paying attention, conventional ones that have not ever had to worry about this or pay attention. So that's the positives. But yeah, Mocha as a whole is pretty, it's pretty minor. The good news is that now at least companies have to register their cosmetics with the FDA. So at least we know what's, you know, we know the companies are out there and exist. I know that sounds crazy. So there's product registration. There's now adverse event reporting. So in the past, I don't know if you ever heard of the story about the hair company that had like 20,000 customers that had hair loss as a result of this products and, but only a couple hundred, like only 200 of them had even been reported to the FDA. So now they have a long, they have a list of adverse events, you know, some serious, especially, and now there's a number of days that a company, if somebody comes forward with one of these adverse events, which that list is very extreme.

 Melanie Petschke

But if somebody comes forward with a something that's on the list, the company now has 50 starting, this is actually starting January 1st. The company has 15 days to report that to the FDA. And there's some very, you know, very important follow-up and details that have to be reported along with it. And then companies have to also keep track in general of adverse events that might get reported, even if they're not the serious ones that have to go to the FDA. So that's progress.  I would say if somebody is, you know, disfigured or hospitalized or dies from a cosmetic or loses their eyesight, at least now the FDA knows about it. So that's good. But that's what I mean as an example of how much farther, how much more we have to go. And then there's some additional pieces having to do with safety, substantiation, again, so much room there. It was one of those things that at the beginning sounded really exciting and sounded like a lot of progress. But at this point, it's pretty minimal in terms of how effective it is. But the good news is that we're headed in the right direction. States seem to be also moving forward at a faster pace. So ultimately, it will just get better and better, hopefully.

Melanie Avalon

So it sounds like maybe we were hoping for more immediate actual changes in products and instead it was more just a little bit more transparency and registration.

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, pretty much. I was so excited because there was talk of fragrance disclosure.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that'd be so exciting. Can you tell listeners I talk about this all the time, but can you talk about the problem with fragrance?

 Melanie Petschke

Yes, absolutely. So fragrance is one of those loopholes that cosmetic companies can utilize, because if you put the word fragrance on a label, you don't have to actually disclose what the fragrance is. And this came about because it's proprietary information where companies wanted to protect their IP and protect their special formula to make, for example, whatever their lotion smells like, they didn't want anybody else to be able to copy it. So you understand where it came from.  But what's terrifying is there's actually no regulation around it. So you can have the word fragrance on the label, and you can put whatever the heck you want underneath that umbrella of fragrance. And it's fascinating because how do you know what part is truly part of the fragrance? They get snuck through that loophole versus not. I mean, there's just so many examples of where that can go wrong. But fragrance as a whole, just as an ingredient, typically has endocrine disruptors as some of the main components to it, such as phthalates. And these are ingredients that are probably in the top five of the most potentially harmful ingredients that we can put on our skin or in our environment, not just at times of life when we are most vulnerable, like puberty and pregnancy and childhood, but in general, over a lifetime, I mean, the body burden alone of the phthalate exposure has major consequences. And everybody has their own theories, but the fact that fertility is plummeting here in the United States, I definitely raise questions. Another clue is when, I don't know if you've ever known this or heard about this, but if you ever, I have seen signs and read articles and heard that fertility clinics actually put signs up that say you may not wear any sort of fragrance into the office because they are so concerned with the effect that we'll have, not just the individuals that are there, but possibly the embryos and things like that. So we know, we know it's not good, but yet we've got a long way to go in terms of regulation for that.

Melanie Avalon

Fragrance is really interesting because, I mean, this might sound a little bit extreme, but it's similar to smoking in that it is both harming the individual and depending on how strong it can be harming people around you. It's like at least with the skincare and makeup, I want everybody to make their own choices and do what they want.  And in general, people wearing skincare and makeup that's not safe doesn't actually affect me, but if you walk by somebody with like, you know, really, really heavy perfume, that affects you. There have been so many times where I feel it, like I viscerally feel the effects from it. And again, that's perfume. And we're talking more about fragrance and products where it's a smaller mouth, but it's just, it's really interesting. And is there a cap on what percent of the product can be fragrance?

 Melanie Petschke

To my knowledge, so in terms of the number of ingredients that could potentially be in fragrance, I have heard numbers as high as 4,000 individual ingredients can qualify as a fragrance ingredient. In terms of percentages, I don't know that there's any regulation on that because if you think about perfume, the majority of it is fragrance and it's usually in some sort of carrier like an alcohol base or something like that.  But yeah, to my knowledge, there are not regulations at all on that.

Melanie Avalon

It's so crazy. And then, and you're speaking to this, you know, this buildup of exposure to toxins, you know, constantly. And I think, I feel like there's also so much nuance in it, just with the toxicity potential of things, because A, there's the buildup. So these things build up over time.  And, you know, when they're testing these, the toxicity of things in a lab, they're not really probably accounting for the, the total body burden and the buildup over time. B, things can synergistically become toxic when they interact, that maybe they didn't have that toxic potential before, but then they interact. And then C, like the toxic dose response curve is so interesting in that some compounds are only toxic in certain amounts. And they actually might be more toxic, for example, at a lower amount, you know, the most tested or higher. So it's just, I just feel like these, any safety testings that even are out there, it's like, how applicable are they? They're like not in the context of how we live our lives and what we're exposed to.

 Melanie Petschke

Yep. And that's exactly the problem.  You nailed it. And I agree with you with how they do impact others. I am very sensitive to fragrance. I remember I can tell you to this day, how miserable I was, for example, at my niece's graduation, college because I was sitting behind a row of people that it smelled like a bottle of perfumance build or something. It was so powerful that I almost had to leave because it gives you just an instant headache.  Airplanes are another one.

Melanie Avalon

I was going to say, I was literally just thinking of like, the worst is when you sit on an airplane and somebody sits by you.

 Melanie Petschke

Yes, it could be illegal.

Melanie Avalon

And what's frustrating about it is that person is not intentionally trying to hurt you or anybody. So it shouldn't be legal, I don't think.

 Melanie Petschke

I agree. And yes, I play, I'm delicately dancing with this topic currently in my own household because I have a pre-teen who is very much into things, you know, products that smell good. So her dream would be to go to Bath and Body Works and stock up, which she knows Chanel was put in that store. But there's a lot of gray area out there. And even in the gray area or the ones that have been shown to be free of some of the worst offenders, they still have a very potent smell. And I cannot stand them in my house.  So that is, it's a delicate dance that we play as a family trying to navigate this stage. And I just continue to hope for more and more options as people learn and understand the need for cleaner and safer alternatives.

Melanie Avalon

So like, I love taking Uber and I think it's amazing and I dread, I have been known to get in an Uber and be like, oh, actually, I can't.

 Melanie Petschke

I have been there. I have been there.  That is such a classic example because you were trapped in such a small space and the air fresheners are, you know, they're there for a reason. Yes, that should be a checkbox if they don't have it yet.

Melanie Avalon

I literally think this every time there should be like a no perfume uber if you're listening.

 Melanie Petschke

Yes, I was gonna say we should tag them and suggest it. We'll pay more. Yeah, I would rather, I don't care about conversation or no conversation, just please, no fragrance.

Melanie Avalon

I know, I know, because there's like, there's like temperature of the air, there's conversation, we need, yeah, the sense, the perfume.

 Melanie Petschke

Air quality.

Melanie Avalon

Air quality, yes. Oh my gosh, you guys should do a collaboration, an Uber crunchy collaboration.

 Melanie Petschke

I love it, we love the three of us.

Melanie Avalon

Putting it out there to the universe. That'd be so epic.  Okay, so when you sat down to like formulate how difficult was it to Create products that perform that work that are awesome that exists within this parameter of safe ingredients And then I have questions about like specific ingredients, but just starting with that so like I mean clearly it's possible to make safe skincare makeup, but what was that process like and is like

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah. So we were definitely trailblazers and we were definitely in an extremely challenging position because not only were we small and we couldn't place massive orders where, you know, manufacturer would really, you'd really get their attention because we were just starting out, but we also had probably the most stringent standards they've ever experienced. So, but we, we really, really stuck to them because we were kind of like, what's the point? Why would we bother doing this? If we're not going to check the boxes that we want to check and we draw, we drew a line in the sand and we stuck with it.  And I would say the, the biggest, the biggest pieces that are, I should say the, the, I would say the top three differentiators that we really stuck with that were not in the clean beauty space yet was at the time, there was so much controversy about the ingredient phenoxy ethanol that it was on my no list from day one. And I told Kelly that because it had been debated and debated and debated and there was new research coming out and I just said, it's not worth it. It's not worth it if there's other alternatives out there. So that was a huge, that was a huge challenge because it was such a mainstream as, as people moved away from parabens, there was only, you know, so many options that had been utilized in cosmetics that were available that, and it's tricky because of course every formula is different. So you have to take those things into account and pH and what other ingredients there are, how much water is in it, how it's, how it's packaged. So that was definitely a huge challenge. And we, we absolutely stuck with that despite the path of most resistance with that one and found alternatives that were safe.  Cause when, when parabens kind of became the standard place, although it's shocking to me today, how many products still have them in it? When I see it, I'm floored, but so parabens were kind of the first ones to get the reputation of endocrine disruption or endocrine hormone mimicking ingredients. And so society kind of naturally pushed the industry away from those, but then the substitutes that came in, you know, had their own set of challenges. So some of the first were methyl ethyl theozolinone, that very long word that starts with an M that you see on the back of a lot of cosmetic products, a lot of liquid soaps, detergents, shampoos, hand soaps, and it is flagged and has been since I think 2012 on the list where of dermatology, allergen watch list, basically, because what happened is when that shift happened, there was this massive influx of dermatitis and it took a while to figure out, but it was stemming from that ingredient that was being placed in formulas instead of phenoxyethanol, or excuse me, instead of parabens, because it was like kind of the natural default next one to put in there. And so that obviously for many reasons was on our no list.  And then phenoxyethanol was one that was in the mix that was very, very common in cosmetics as a broad spectrum preservative. But we had our list that we had studied extensively and that we were comfortable with.

 Melanie Petschke

And of course, especially with healthcare background, of course, the importance of broad spectrum preservation is critical when you're formulating cosmetics of any time. If you see somebody that's bragging about preservative free, that should be a red flag. There's a few exceptions to that rule. But for the most part, preservative free should be walk the other direction because every product needs to be, in terms of cosmetics, unless it's made at home and it's kept in the fridge and you're only going to use it for a few days and even then it could, you know, risky sometimes.  Reservation as broad spectrum preservation is critical to prevent microbial growth. And of course, you know, if things grow, then that of course can be harmful, cause infections and skin issues. So we feel very strongly about the need for preservation. And it's interesting because that's kind of a rumor sometimes in clean beauties. Oh, that's not safe. That's definitely the farthest thing from the direction we'd ever go. So we were able to over time work with our manufacturers and help them see the vision that we had. So yeah, preservation was definitely number one when it came to different factors. And then there was a handful of others. Colorants were a big one. We only use to this day, colorants that are in the iron oxide family or the mica family. So essentially naturally derived colorants versus petroleum or coal tar derived colorants. And that's incredibly rare, both in, not just in conventional cosmetics, but also in clean beauty as well. So that's another one that's a big differentiator for us as well. And then, of course, we we absolutely drew the line. TELC was non-negotiable, even if it was the type of TELC that was claiming to be asbestos free. That one was not worth it. We were able to find alternative ingredients that would not be anywhere close to the TELC family, because that was just it doesn't get any more extreme when it comes to cosmetics than risk of asbestos. So that was another big one that we've we really avoided as well. And I can go on, but those are the big ones.

Melanie Avalon

In all the ingredients that you use, what is the role of screening for toxic exposure or the cleanliness of the source material versus the production process, both for you guys and like in general? Can things get contaminated in processing?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a huge issue. And what's terrifying about that is the contamination during the processing. So the most common place you see this is in ingredients called ethoxylated ingredients. And in the processing through the ethoxylation process, one for dioxane and ethylene oxide are the contaminants that are at most risk for remaining in the product at some level. And those two ingredients that I just listed are the two biggest heavy hitters when it comes to safety for humans that exist. So that piece right there is one of the biggest challenges. And as a consumer, you can't pick up an ingredient label and look and see the word ethoxylated ingredient very often at least. And you can't pick up the ingredient list and see the word ethylene oxide or one for dioxane because their contaminants are not actually independent ingredients. So again, you need a PhD in chemistry to truly understand and protect yourself from ingredients like that.  And they're everywhere. Ethoxylated ingredients are everywhere. They're oftentimes in emulsifiers or surfactants. So they're in the ingredients that where you're combining water and oil and helping them mix together in an emulsion. That's where you're going to find the ethoxylated type of ingredients. You'll find them also in soaps and detergents and things. They're just extremely common. And the part that's interesting is we've always just banned them 100%. But the process to remove the one for dioxane and the ethylene oxide exists, it's like an extra step. And the majority of companies do not take that extra step because they don't have to and it's more costly. I'm talking about ingredient companies. So that's the part that's absolutely just infuriating. We have definitely have on our list to potentially explore someday the ones where they have removed that contaminant. We haven't gone there yet, just because it is one of those things where I would have to have a lot of very, very, very effective and convincing testing measures in order to go that direction. But it's nice to know that at least it's becoming more mainstream slowly. And that it's something companies are talking about and they're recognizing that companies are going to be asking for this. So where it used to be very black and white, where if you saw something that said, like that said, Lorith, for example, ending an ETH on a ingredient list, for sure that's an ethoxylated ingredient. And for sure, it's at risk for contamination. What's great about the movement that companies and ingredient companies are taking is that there may be a day or they're starting to be a day where if you see that ingredient, it doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't go through that last step. That's available now. And so that's something that's good for the future because it would be incredibly helpful to be able to have and use those ingredients in our formulations because they're useful, they're helpful, they're solid and great ingredients that can really help a formulation. So the future is definitely bright in terms of opportunities and options when it comes to safer products and more options, I should say.

Melanie Avalon

I'm super curious, just hearing all of that, the nuance of these ingredients in your products right now, like in your entire line, what would be the ingredients that people might look at and be concerned about in crunchy products? And it's just because of a lack of education surrounding, you know, the misconceptions like we talked about with the preservatives.  Would it be the preservatives or are there any other ingredients that people might be like skeptical about?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, no, excellent question. And I would say the ones we hear about the most, it's a tie.  Number one we hear about the most is dimethicone. So when we launched Crunchy, we had a whole philosophy already established. So and we haven't really gotten into this, but our three pillars are safety, performance, and sustainability. Because our whole philosophy is if you're going to work this hard to make a product clean, why are you going to stick it in a package that's going to contaminate it with BPA or BPS or some sort of, you know, concerning ingredient, you know, and beyond. And we can get into that. But so dimethicone, a lot of times, so when we were establishing our ingredient standards, we did not absolutely knew we did not want to rule out the use of quote unquote synthetic ingredients. We recognize that just because it was synthetic or synthetically derived did not automatically make it an unsafe ingredient. And it also we learned that just because an ingredient is quote unquote natural, depending on, you know, whatever definition you use for the word natural, because there's many, if an ingredient is natural, that doesn't always mean that it is safe for use in a cosmetic or safe for use in general either. So we learned very early on that we would never want to call ourselves an all natural brand. That was not our goal. In fact, that was kind of our secret sauce early on is that we recognize that these safe synthetics can be really beneficial in a formula. And we wanted them where they did have that safety backing or that safety data. So dimethicone is hands down the one ingredient that we stood apart in utilizing it and also the one that got the attention of of lots of lots of people that are learning to read ingredient list, which is good. But there's not all dimethicone are created equal, which is where the concern comes from. So dimethicone as an ingredient, it's in the family of silicones, and it's a very large molecule. And a pure form of dimethicone or dimethicone as an ingredient is large enough to sit on top of the skin. It's a molecule to sit on top of the skin. So this is not an ingredient we would ever use in a skincare product. So the times that people put it in a skincare product, it's designed for slip and designed to make it feel a certain way when it's applied. And it's, it's almost designed to fake a glow that the product itself isn't creating. But in a makeup product like foundation, for example, it is fantastic. And it doesn't have to be a lot, we're not talking about a lot, a large amount, not that that matters, because safety, you know, doesn't matter, it still needs to be safe. But it is designed to sit on top of the skin where you want your foundation to be. And you want it to, you know, be that canvas where it just is smooth, and it sits on top of the skin, instead of going into the the fine lines or the crevices or the, you know, any kind of irregularity on top of the skin, you want it to sit on top.

 Melanie Petschke

So that's where it's effective and helpful to have them all, you know, an ingredient like dimethicone. Now, some dimethicons are mixed with other ingredients, also typically ethoxylated ones, as a way to blend well with certain formulations.  So that's where the flags get raised a lot of time. And then there's also so there's difference between the type of dimethicone or silicone class that we use. And then there's cyclic silicones. And those are completely different in their makeup, and completely different in terms of safety and health concerns, because they're completely different ingredients, but sometimes they get put under the same umbrella. So it's just a matter of educating consumers to help them understand the differences. But it's definitely, definitely one we hear about, for sure.

Melanie Avalon

Are there any ingredients on the flip side where, because you mentioned how, you know, from the very beginning, you knew you didn't want to be, quote, all natural, that you're going to have safe synthetic ingredients as well. Are there, quote, natural ingredients that are often in skincare makeup that can actually be problematic?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, well, so the one that comes to mind, of course, is natural fragrance, because it kind of falls into that same loophole as regular fragrance that's labeled. So if the term natural fragrance is on the ingredient list, then you don't really know what's in it. It's a loophole.  A fun fact about that is when we were formulating our products early on, and we did have some raw material smells that were not exactly desirable. So we were trying to find something that we could put in this product to just help it smell a little bit better than the natural raw material smell. And we would only do that if it was necessary. So we kind of took some opinions and everybody concluded, yeah, that smells like dirt. You should probably add something to that. Okay, so we went on this journey to try to figure out what our options were to add a scent to our, so I'll give foundation as an example, because that was the very first one that we tackled. And I would call up these fragrance houses and they would say, we'd talk about the options. And so I would say, okay, can I see an ingredient list that shows me what's in such and such scent? And they would say, sorry, we can't do that. And I would say, okay, so I'm supposed to put this in my product that I'm formulating, and I'm not allowed to know what's actually in it. And they said, yes, that's correct, mama. And I said, okay, and they said, but don't worry, you can ask questions about what's not in it and we will be able to answer those. And I said, okay, goodbye, thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon

Or I, okay, I have 5,000 questions for you.

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, I don't know it would never end.  There's no it would be impossible So we learned very early on that there are very few choices when it comes to adding scent to our products And it's it's only gotten a little bit more interesting as we've gone along where we landed with that product in particular was vanilla planifolia extract was how we were able to Just have a subtle scent to cover up the raw material smell wasn't overbearing wasn't powerful wasn't gonna cause anybody to leave the elevator you know, it's something that just it did ends up dissipating a lot of people don't even know it's in there because it's Simply to cover up that raw material smell and that's that's it for that product example

Melanie Avalon

One time I was trying to figure out what was in the natural flavors of some, I think it was like a horse, a raw horse radish or something. And I emailed the company on two different occasions, and they gave me completely different answers, like the different reps. I was like, I feel like they're just making stuff up. Like, you know, they don't know what's in it. They're just like telling me things that was concerning.  Another ingredient question for you is what about the role of seed oils in the products? And the reason I'm asking that is that, like the biohacking community, the holistic health community, the paleo community is very much in tune with the potential issues of eating seed oils and the omega-6s and the inflammatory potential. So what is the role of those in skincare products? Is that something to be concerned about?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, and you can imagine that in recent days, as the knowledge about this topic is growing, it is absolutely a question that we get frequently and more than ever. The good news is it is a completely different topic when you're dealing with something from a consumption basis versus a topical application basis. So that is the good news, that's the short answer is you do not have to worry about seed oils in topical skincare products, cosmetics, skincare.  The main concern, of course, is are they processed? Well, there's multiple, but one of the concerns is are they processed with using hexane or other chemical-based solvents? That is definitely not permitted in our line. We are not, we will not permit the use of any ingredient, seed oil or not, that is processed in that manner. So that's number one. And then secondly, we naturally in the sebum on our skin actually contains poofos. So polyunsaturated fatty acids are actually already in existence in our sebum. So again, it's a completely different scenario when it's something that's topical, it actually can be positive for the impact of our skin. But I understand as a consumer how incredibly confusing that is.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Okay, I have a question because you're mentioning earlier about how this ingredient was added to the products to kind of give it like a fake glow. I always often reflect on the irony that especially women, we wear all of this makeup and use the skincare in the hopes of like looking younger, but it actually might be aging us.  I actually wonder if because women live longer than men in general. So like women seem to exhibit a longer lifespan just from like data. So in theory, you would think that that would mean women are aging slower is what you would think. It seems that women start to look older earlier than men do. And I wonder how much of that is the skincare that we're using, like women, like we're like slathering it on our face all day.

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, that's an excellent question and honestly it's the first time I've ever been asked that questionist in terms of like a true root cause or theory about that. One, that's tough because I could see the counter argument which is in doing that you're getting some level of sun protection even if it's unintentional.  So I could maybe see the counter argument to that if that was not the case but that's an excellent question and it would not surprise me if someday we conclude that that is in fact accurate.

Melanie Avalon

And to that point, your line in general, is it mostly women who purchase? What about men?

 Melanie Petschke

No, that's an excellent question. So at this time, I don't have actual statistical data to date updating on the breakdown, but because we started as color cosmetics, we naturally attracted with the majority women. And then we expanded. We eventually were convinced by our customers, by our consumers, they begged and begged for skincare. So then we slowly started moving into skincare. And we're actually still kind of moving in still, but we really wanted to do color first and do it well. But because of that, the majority of our customer base early on was women.  Today, we are absolutely gaining more and more men. We're gaining teens all ages, which is great. And sometimes, as you probably know, the majority of buyers in a four men, they're doing the research for things like this, but oftentimes, you know, they're the ones that are educating themselves, and then they can make that choice too. So it's hard to exactly measure the percentages, because even if they're being used by men, they might be purchased by women. But I can tell you, both within our company and my own personal household, there is, it is definitely effective and great for men to use also for lots of reasons.

Melanie Avalon

I'm surprised because I'm in like product development as well. I'm surprised I didn't realize until now that for like the data women are often purchasing for the men that like did not occur to me that that would like affect the data a little bit.  I'm really curious. What are the most popular products with customers and what are your favorite products and Kelly's favorite products?

 Melanie Petschke

Oh gosh, that's always a question that we get asked. And I, every time I hate it because I'm like, I have so many.

Melanie Avalon

It's a good problem to have.

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah. But if we go to that, what's the one thing you couldn't live without kind of thing? All right. So I used to say our foundation, when it came to caller, I'm sorry, we've checked for foundation extensively at this point. So I used to say foundation, we have recently launched a tinted sunscreen with SPF 30 in it. And it's a lighter coverage. It's kind of a medium coverage, light coverage. It's so buildable. It still has amazing coverage. And it has become my new favorite. So it's like there's a time and a place for both. I definitely wear foundation still for those evening things or for times where I might need or want to have your coverage.  But for that day to day, daily, quick, five minute routine, it's perfect. And it's really hard to go wrong, because it's kind of a, it's a chameleon formula, just blends into your skin. You don't see it. So that's what hands down one of my, my new favorites, but I cannot live without the following, I'm going to say three skincare products are I am polished facial exfoliating scrub is called I am polished is phenomenal facial exfoliator. And the key is applying it when you clean dry skin, because it has both a physical component to it as well as a quote unquote, chemical exfoliant portion to it. And what it does is it allows you to have it work, you know, kind of both, both ways, and then you can cater it to your own needs. So if you're somebody that has super sensitive skin, well, depending on your definition of sensitive may want to, you know, you can decide if it's a good product for you, but you can you can leave it on for one minute, two minutes, three, you know, I personally leave it on I have I do not have sensitive skin. So I leave it on for five minutes, you know, at least to really get that full effectiveness for somebody with my skin tip, but it is for sure, my one of my favorite products because you just get an immediate instant performance.  It's it's it's awesome how effective it is and how great your skin feels and looks after using it. So that one and then I would say second is golden light. Golden light is our multi peptide facial serum. And it is truly liquid gold. It was called golden light for a reason. It is absolutely phenomenal. It has it's loaded with ingredients that are beneficial from an anti aging standpoint, just from an overall feel and appearance standpoint. And that I can tell a difference if I do not have it. I recently went out of town. I ended up sharing, you know, handing giving a friend of mine my golden light because she was loving it. And I came home and I hadn't I didn't have one on hand. And it took me I just had captured coming up the reasons that I had to go pick it up. And I there was a period of time that I think I set a record since the product is launched. And I was I could see a difference in my skin and it was driving me crazy. And I truly can tell a difference in that one as well. And then the third I would say that I can't live it up is daylight advance. So daylight advance is fantastic because it's got a combination of bakuchia, which is a retinal alternative.

 Melanie Petschke

It's got a very stable form of vitamin C that's actually different than our vitamin C serum. And then it's also got just I mean, it's one of those where we have to pick and choose which ingredients you're going to talk about because there's so many good ingredients in it, if that makes sense. But I would say those are the three top three favorites, although it's again, it's very hard to choose.

Melanie Avalon

What's the best seller in general?

 Melanie Petschke

It, of course, has evolved over time, but definitely the three I just mentioned are best sellers in the color cosmetic category. Foundations, huge primers, huge our finishing powder and our mascara are huge as well. I would say those are probably the top top sellers.

Melanie Avalon

I just want to say I love all of the names, like you guys nailed it. It's like the way I would name products, like it creates like an image of like glowing and light and I just, I'm obsessed with it. And now I have to try these products, I can't believe I haven't tried them.  Quick question about the tinted sunscreen. You mentioned earlier, like the counter argument about, you know, sun protection, and I think it's pretty established that one of the most aging things for our skin is the sun, which is ironic because we also need the vitamin D, but you know, that's definitely aging to our skin. So I'm hearing this about the tinted sunscreen, I'm like, oh, I should like be wearing that as a preventative because I don't at present. Like the tinted sunscreen, the foundation, these cosmetic products, are they just like inert benign when it comes to the skin or are they actually, do they actually enhance the skin? Like do they have therapeutic benefits as well, like skin care?

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, absolutely. So one thing that I didn't mention earlier, when it comes to just backing up to our skincare products, we have a philosophy. Another line I drew in the sand when we first launched Crunchy is if we're going to put a efficacious active ingredient in a product, it's going to be at a level that's clinically proven to actually perform and show results. Because otherwise, what's the point? I was absolutely shocked to find out from working with formulators, manufacturers, that that's not normal. And there is quite a limited number that follow that, which blows my mind. Because if you're not seeing results, you're not going to come back and keep buying the products. And you want people to see results. And if they're not efficacious, then again, what is the point? So that is something we felt very strongly about.  So that's for skincare. When it comes to color, we love the idea of using our products also as an opportunity to infuse goodness and nutritive ingredients into the skin as well. So we use terms like it's not just makeup and skincare. And absolutely, I mean, we've got Tramell mushroom in our foundation and in our primer. We've got a host of just really beneficial oils and botanicals in our liquid blush. And even in our eyeshadows and powders, we find a way to fit that in. And lash nourishing ingredients in our mascara. So as long as you're putting it on and it's something that you're in the routine every day, might as well put some goodness in there also.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing, that is so great to hear. If I can make a product request, well, you mentioned the lashes, would you ever make a lash growth serum?

 Melanie Petschke

Oh, I am glad you asked. So here, you know the challenges with lash growth serums is the fact that the majority of the affected ones on the market have a pharmaceutical in them that is disguised underneath many, many, many pharmaceutical names. But it's essentially a derivative of the same active ingredient that's in lattice. And it's designed. It was actually originally found because by accident, lattice before it was lattice was a glaucoma medication. And they found coincidentally that these glaucoma patients were having really long eyelash growth. And so that's how lattice was originally born. And it sounds like a phenomenal concept on paper. Because sure, it's glaucoma medication. It's been studied and so forth. But the downside to this class of medications is, I mean, there's multiple. One, it can change the pigment color of your eye. Secondly, it thins the skin over time underneath your eye and on your lid. If you actually sit down and talk to enough dermatologists, they will tell you now that these have been on the market for long enough how many patients they're seeing that are coming that are having fat loss underneath their eye and thinning. And it's causing them to actually look older. So even if they have longer lashes, their eye cavity itself is starting to look older, which is kind of counterproductive and not something that I think was super apparent right away.  And then the other thing I hear about them is eye irritation. A lot of them have such eye irritation. And sometimes it's not always just noticeable at the beginning. It's something that eventually develops sensitivity over time. And that's when the sense of it develops. Those are ingredients. While on paper, they look amazing and wonderful. I would not touch them with a 10-foot pole, even though it's tempting. Just because of what I have learned and heard about them. So when it came to formulation of future products and about the topic of lash growth serum, I made it very clear with my team early on, I said, I would love to come out with a lash growth serum, brow lash, you know, growth serum. However, I refuse until we have clinical data that is not a pharmaceutical in the Lattice class that is demonstrating efficacy. Because that, again, what's the point? I'm not gonna waste my time or my energy or my money putting something on my eyes every day, because it's a step, you know, unless it's truly showing results in work. So what's great is we've had many years to be researching this. And we absolutely have kind of cracked the code on what that looks like. And I can't say a whole lot, but it's absolutely on our product roadmap.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, I'm excited, okay, yay. And maybe that's a good question to wrap things up.  The future of the company in general, what are you most excited about looking forward to? Yeah, where are things going from here?

 Melanie Petschke

One thing, so when it comes to clean products and clean products that perform and then on top of that clean products that perform that are packaged in sustainable packaging, I mean those are three really tall orders and that have made kind of a path of challenge when it comes to different formulations and at this time we have 100% of our product packaging is for the primary portion of plastic free which is very very challenging to attain. So my point in saying this is what's interesting about our product roadmap is that we take all of those factors into account kind of like what you what I just shared with you is if we cannot check all three of those boxes we're not going to launch a product at all we just delete until we figure out a way we can do it.  So we have so much on the product roadmap and it's just a matter of making sure that we can effectively check those boxes. One thing that's great is that we are making headway as a society as an industry in terms of sustainable packaging options. We do the best we can but it's really hard when it comes to pumps and caps and things like that. Refills are becoming more popular and more available so and we definitely brought in a lot of other materials that are making it more achievable because it's it's really hard to ask somebody to put a gigantic glass jar in their shower for example. So we're trying to constantly evolve as as the sustainability options evolve also but ultimately yes we have a whole long list of products both in our current pipeline and then ones to follow once we are able to check all three of those boxes and definitely evolving with color cosmetics definitely continue down the path of meeting the needs of of skincare and consumer needs as as you know consumer behavior shifts and and people ask too for different things and then we're moving into more into body care which is very exciting and the theme of wellness in general is a intuitive and natural next step for us whether whatever that looks like whether it's supplements that can also benefit the skin it's definitely you know on our radar I would say but not not anything soon just just kind of the the concept of wellness in general we get a lot of requests for shampoo and conditioners which are their own challenge in the world yes so hair spray yes hair products are the most challenging for sure

Melanie Avalon

Keep protectant spray.

 Melanie Petschke

Yeah, so, so challenging for those that category.

Melanie Avalon

Well, that's amazing. And that was something I was literally, like I said in the beginning, blown away by when I started researching your company, the transparency and the information you have on your website about all of your standards is honestly mind blowing. Like the packaging you talk about, you talk about, like how all the products are vegan with the exception of you like save the specific products and like the bees wax and where it's coming from. And you talk about how like, how it's all US based except for like, like the pencils made in like a responsible or a sustainable German factory. It's just like, I really appreciate the education, the transparency, the links you're going to to make these incredible products that are healthy and sustainable for everybody.  So just like, thank you so much. And so when this episode airs, we were talking beforehand, we think there's going to be some sort of awesome special going on for for the audience.

 Melanie Petschke

Yes, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon

Listeners can always go to crunchy.com. That's C-R-U-N-C-H-I.com slash Melanie Avalon to shop with me there.  New customers can use the coupon code advocate10 to get 10% off site-wide. And then like I said, there should be some sort of special offer going on at this time as well, which I will put in the intro and also update. Yay, well, thank you, Melanie. Like literally, thank you so much for what you're doing. Was there anything else you wanted to share with the audience?

 Melanie Petschke

I just am really grateful for the fact that you are so educated and have such a savvy consumer base because honestly the change is driven by our consumers. We vote with our dollars every time we pick up anything at the store or purchase anything online. We're making a statement, so I appreciate all of your efforts and energy to keep us moving in the direction that's going to better our health. So thank you.  It's been an absolute honor and a privilege. Appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, thank you. And what's kind of crazy is the last question I ask every single guest on the show.  And it is because I appreciate mindset so much. And it's what is something that you're grateful for. And you just shared that.

 Melanie Petschke

That's fantastic, I was, I intuitively.

Melanie Avalon

You read my mind on a white link here. Thank you again so much, Melanie.  I'm so excited. I love Crunchy. I'm excited to see the future for you guys, and we'll have to have you back on in the future if you're down to update listeners.

 Melanie Petschke

Absolutely. We've got a host of topics we can still cover.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Well, thank you. Have a beautiful rest of your day.

 Melanie Petschke

Thank you so much, you too. Bye. Bye.



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