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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #152 - John Gray (Part 2)

John Gray is the author of the most well-known and trusted relationship book of all time, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. USA Today listed his book as one of the top 10 most influential books of the last quarter century. In hardcover, it was the #1 bestselling book of the 1990s. Dr. Gray’s books are translated into approximately 45 languages in more than 100 countries and continues to be a bestseller.
Dr. Gray has written over 20 books. His most recent book is Beyond Mars and Venus. His Mars/Venus book series has forever changed the way men and women view their relationships.
John helps men and women better understand and respect their differences in both personal and professional relationships. His approach combines specific communication techniques with healthy, nutritional choices that create the brain and body chemistry for lasting health, happiness and romance.
His many books, blogs and free online workshops at MarsVenus.com provide practical insights to improve relationships at all stages of life and love. An advocate of health and optimal brain function, he also provides natural solutions for overcoming depression, anxiety and stress to support increased energy, libido, hormonal balance and better sleep.
He has appeared repeatedly on Oprah, as well as on The Dr. Oz Show, TODAY, CBS This Morning, Good Morning America, and others. He has been profiled in Time, Forbes, USA Today, and People. He was also the subject of a three-hour special hosted by Barbara Walters.
John Gray lives in Northern California, where for 34 years he happily shared his life with his beautiful wife, Bonnie, until her passing in 2018. They have three grown daughters and four grandchildren. He is an avid follower of his own health and relationship advice.



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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #127 - John Gray (Part 1)

11:40 - Independent women and sex

15:00 - hysteria

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24:00 - the multi-orgasmic woman

25:00 - getting needs met

28:15 - mother's love

29:50 - men's needs

32:00 - g-Spot, E-Spot, C-Spot

34:00 - therapy and going deep into feelings

36:30 - resentment

40:15 - Depression & anxiety, negativity

43:30 - Emotional growth

46:00 - suppressing and controlling women

47:30 - being Purely logical

49:30 - true friendship

50:45 - Maslow's Hierarchy of needs

52:00 - unconditional love

54:45 - receiving validation

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #38 - Connie Zack
The Science Of Sauna: Heat Shock Proteins, Heart Health, Chronic Pain, Detox, Weight Loss, Immunity, Traditional Vs. Infrared, And More!

56:30 - being naked

58:20 - the anatomy of an argument

1:00:50 - "venus talk"

1:02:15 - trying to change your partner

1:07:00 - respect between men and women

1:08:00 - how being a doormat is poisonous

1:10:10 - romance

1:12:30 - Journaling to process negativity

1:14:00 - smiling

1:16:15 - allowing others to love you unconditionally

1:18:00 - seeing the goodness in imperfection

1:19:45 - connection between ejaculation and longevity

1:28:10 - women and masturbation


Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, welcome back to the show. I am so excited about the conversation that I am about to have. It is with a repeat guest. As you guys know, only the best of the best of the best are repeat guests on this show. For you guys who missed the first episode, I had the fabulous, fantastic John Gray, a man who honestly needs no introduction, but I will give him an introduction. Anyways, he's the author of the most well-known and trusted relationship book of all time, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. Not just that book, he's written over 20 books and he's literally everywhere. Time, Forbes, USA Today, Good Morning America, the Dr. Oz Show. This man is a legend. It was so amazing to have him on the show a few months ago. It was a foundational episode, so, listeners listen to that episode first because John called it at The End of the Checkerboard episode. We set the stage for everything, but we didn't get to all the topics, and I wanted to ask some really random questions. The purpose of today's show is to just go on all those tangents and follow-up questions. I will put a link in the show notes to our first interview and that will set the stage for today. So, John, thank you so, so much for coming back and being here. 

John Gray: Happy to be here. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, so, last night, I re-listened to our first interview to refresh my memory on what we talked about. One of the vague lingering questions I had, it was something that you had mentioned and I'd wanted to ask you about at the moment, but we didn't get to it. It actually ties into a larger topic, which is-- so, this is a two-part question. We’ve talked about this before, but I am a very independent woman, not in a relationship, haven't been in a relationship. I don't feel I'm lacking anything at the moment with that, but you had made a comment that for a woman not in a relationship, one of the things she would not be able to achieve in that state was becoming multi-orgasmic. So, two questions. Why is that? Then two, I'm wondering also as the independent woman not in a relationship, you had spoken about how women in order to transition from the testosterone ‘you time’ to the progesterone ‘me time’ that you need the oxytocin ‘we time.’ I'm wondering if the woman not in a relationship is able to get that middle stepped through other means, if it's sexual, masturbation, or nonsexual like a pet. Yeah, so, it's a two-part question, but it all revolves around the independent woman, and I guess her the role of sex, and what she needs there.

John Gray: Okay. Well, that's wonderful. I love talking about these topics. First one will be about the multi-orgasmic woman. You do have to have a man who's capable of making love that the multi-orgasmic in most cases. There is another situation about many orgasms that are not necessarily multi-orgasmic. That is where you use a vibrator and it stimulates the clitoris, which can create, we might call a climax. Freud talked about that as an immature orgasm and everybody said, “Oh, he didn't know what he's talking about. He's not a woman or whatever.” [laughs] The women I've been with tell me there's a big difference. But you can argue the point, there's no difference because that's all you know. I remember when I was a young guy, and I had a guru in my 20s, and someday I said to him that he is the best teacher in the world. He's the greatest and it was an Indian guru. He was an Indian man and he says, “How do you know? Do you know other Indian gurus? How many do you know? India is full of gurus like that?” [laughs] So, it's a fun way to look at. Yeah. “Oh, I have orgasms, but have you seen all kinds? You know all kinds? There're other options available.” 

There's the idea of clitoral stimulation. What clitoral stimulation does is when a woman feels [sighs] safe and a bit open you stimulate the clitoris, because that will increase more desire. But then it’s the G-spot, is penetration of the G-spot that allows her estrogen levels to go higher and higher and higher and become multi-orgasmic. But there has to be generally speaking, some testosterone as well. But when you're independent and I'll prove that by people, “How can you say all this stuff?” Well, I read a lot, I look a lot of study, and I have a lot of sex. You learn these things. I'm a counselor for 50 years, so, I understand people's challenges in their bedroom. Having said that, there's a simple way of looking at something which was called hysteria in Greek days. These were basically depressed, anxious women and they were only the high class. The working class didn't experience this. Then you have in America, even in 1900, hysteria was still a condition that they would talk about for women and it was canceled in 1950. But the solution in 1900 for hysteria, which has always been around in England as well, the upper class. Basically, the women experience anxiety, they faint, they fall apart, there's a whole history of that one quarter of people generally the highest part of society for women and that was due to too much estrogen.

Now, I'm always telling we need to bump up woman's estrogen levels, it's just because women's estrogen levels in this day and age tend to be very low, because they tend to be more on their male side making the complementary hormone testosterone. The remedy for this anxiety for women, anxiety produced from too much estrogen was the paddle machine. It was a vibrator to stimulate women's clitoris. And not personal, there wasn't any love, it was just to stimulate the clitoris, generate the testosterone to start balancing her high estrogen levels, and she would have a climax, and she would feel better for several days, and then she'd have to go back to her testosterone stimulation. So, that's a different world. We know the traditional world suppressed women from expressing or held back women from expressing their independent testosterone producing side, whereas at the same time, it prevented men from going to their happy side, the loving side, the enjoyment side, you know men were expected to suck it up and do the difficult things and don't complain, and that was manliness, and it still is manliness. There's a question about it. It's just that today, we have the opportunity to balance the masculine with the feminine. If you're a woman and you're with a more feminized man, it will be hard to be multi-orgasmic as well. Most women tell me after a while, they lose interest in a more feminized man very quickly. They are often attracted to them, because opposites do attract and if she's more on her male side, she tends to want to connect to a man who's on his female side in the beginning.

But then as they start becoming closer and closer, she finds out that he's so feminine, she's stuck on her male side taking care of him, he's needy, she wants to talk a lot, she has to listen. So, she finds herself feeling overwhelmed because she's resisting going to her female side, because she's in a sense the man in the relationship. It's much easier to go deeper into your feminine. This is where we started out, which is, what's good about heterosexual relationships, if you're heterosexual is that as a woman, you have a chance to let go of your masculine temporarily and allow yourself to go to your part of you, which is feminine. One of the qualities that femininity is and why I say they're qualities that femininity is common sense, but it's also estrogen stimulating is your emotional side to feel emotional, to be able to surrender, to open your heart, to be yielding, to allow someone to guide you, to support you. And certainly, I have lots of people that guide me and support me in terms of I read books, I take classes, I listen to people, and I allow them to influence me. That's what vulnerability is. It's allowing somebody to influence you, to have effects on you, and that is estrogen stimulating. This is where when women go to their male side, there's an automatic natural resistance to coming back to that feminine side, it's often judged as weakness. 

Paradoxical thing here is that, because women judge themselves, their feminine side is weakness, their emotions, as irrational, as overreactive, and they are. All [laughs] emotions, if they're negative tend to be overreactions. Again, we can go back to Freud for this, the father of psychology, which was a lot of his ideas are outdated, but the basics of it that made it a very, very powerful is the recognition that when we have an emotional upset, if we don't deal with that and resolve it, then it builds up inside and so, one upset of 10% upset say, plus another one of 10%, plus another one of 10%, plus another one of 10%. Then if you're married and you're having sex with your partner, all that stuff gets put on him, so he left this shoes in the living room, and she has 100-degree upset to that rather than just the 10-degree upset. Now, that ability to get over to that overreactive self is actually amplified when you're in a relationship with a man because in a relationship with a man, when you're having sex with somebody, you're depending on them to provide stimulation for you, your yielding, your opening, your receptive. Not only that, it allows you to grow tremendously if you can use it to grow. 

Some people just argue, and fight, and end up moving away, and they lose their attraction very quickly. But see what happens when you have sex is that you're becoming naked with somebody. Ideally, you're naked mentally and emotionally, and then you get physically naked. I can see for many women, sex is a huge turnoff, because men don't create a safety nor does she take the risk to explore her mind completely open, her emotions completely open. How do you do that successfully without turning off a man? It's just learning how to do that, where you be completely authentic mentally and emotionally. Then, when you have sex, you're naked physically, and now, you're back to being a child. Yeah, so, people call each other baby and particularly in the beginning, they get all snoopy, [laughs] and all I miss you, I love you, do you love me, I need you. This brings you back to your pure soul. Children come in, they have a pure soul, they're just filled with love, and happiness, and joy, there's no greater feeling on all that, and that happens by feeling-- That's the benefit on a certain level as you can access such great high joy. You see women when they're getting married, for example, they have all these high hopes there's just such a great joy that they feel. Now, they're often disappointed because they don't know how to sustain those feelings. That's the relationship skills that I teach. Because of the question you’ve asked about balancing hormones, we can get to that and we can talk about that. 

Back to the multi orgasmic woman. The multi-orgasmic woman is a woman who is not just stimulated by her clitoris to have an orgasm, what I see happening a lot with gay couples and maybe I'm inaccurate here, because I'm not a gay person. But what I seem to know from talking to them is that they can have many, many orgasms, but they're primarily clitoral, and they can use their fingers for G-spot as well, and there's a certain depth that they can get to. Maybe they can go all the way. I don't know. That's not my expertise. But I do know that when you feel you can open your heart to someone and let them influence you, that is your female energy. Let yourself feel the desire, the hope, the intention to open up, and then to feel need. A lot of women today, it's really challenging for them, because they can't feel need. Your heart opens when you feel, “I can trust someone to depend on them to get what I need,” as opposed to I'll do it for myself. So, it's in that relationship, and the relatedness, and the safety that you can basically feel, “I need you, I need this, I need what I'm getting from you.” This is a big jump because historically, women primarily needed men for providers-- protection and providers. If we put it into this stage of history, where have money, men would go out and earn the money to support the family. They would fight for protection because it was a dangerous world. You didn’t have police around, you just had your tribe. If you go back many hundreds of years in China, for example, where I teach a lot, I was so surprised to hear that they wanted lots of children. This is before the one child rules. They wanted lots of children, because those children who grew up to become their army. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Really? 

John Gray: Yes, just imagine. What we could be imagining now, if we had no police and you see what's happening in the cities. People need to have that control. It needs to be there. A lot of people are moving out of New York, and moving out of San Francisco, moving out of Seattle, when you see all this craziness where the police are really-- There's not enough police and the police are saying, “Why bother? Why endanger myself when they don't prosecute these people and put them in jail?” You see how demoralizing that is. That's what's going on. That's the male side of this whole thing. A man says, because we're talking about men and women here. A man is willing to give his life as long as he will be supported and appreciated. See, that's masculinity. “I will do the dirty, difficult, dangerous things, I'll do things that I don't like doing, I don't want to do, but if you need it, I'll rise to the occasion and do it without resentment.” This is a glorious thing about men that women just don't understand, because women don't rise to the occasion without resenting. It maybe for their children they would, because they don't expect anything from their children. But it's a very common thing when I'm counseling women for 50 years is that they'll be unhappy and they have a right to be unhappy because what they'll say just understand how they created their unhappiness is they'll say, “I've given so much, I've tried so hard, I did this for him, I do this for him, and he doesn't do it back, he doesn't give back.” 

The sad truth is that men don't give back unless you ask. When you ask, if you ask without resentment, without demand, they will rise up and do all kinds of things. But they have to be trained just as women have to be trained to understand what is this new need that women have? Because right now, they don't need men. It'd be the police, “Hey, why should I even bother, if it's not going to have an effect? I'm going to put somebody in jail, and they just let them out again, and they don't prosecute them? Why even bother?” Men are designed at primary testosterone oriented, the regulate stress to experience wellbeing. There's an attitude of which women have that attitude to. It's just not nearly as strong and as big as it is in a man, which is, “I'll do what it takes, I'll sacrifice without resentments,” as long as somebody appreciates it, as long as it makes a difference. What makes a difference in life is a woman's love. Mother's love, you'll see most of the violent criminals or all of the violent criminals don't have mother's love. There is a kind of mother's love that’s sick, which is the mother depends on the child to make her happy, as opposed to the mother is happy taking care of the child. That's the selflessness. That's the unconditional love I give to you without expecting anything in return. 

But generally, a lot of times, not always, but mothers who don't have husbands who know how to love them and they don't know how to love the man, they end up having these divorces, they're single women, and that's not your case, because we're not talking about women from relationship, I’m applying this, I'm just being general here, so people understand this, there is really a big difference is that women will come to me and they always say, “I gave, and gave, and gave, and gave, and I didn't get back.” You rarely hear that from men because if men don't get back, they stop giving. [laughs] You keep investing in something and it doesn't pay you back, you stop. The key is learning how to not give so much without resenting that you're not getting back because the resentment comes from over giving. There's no question about that. You can't feel resentment unless that's what resentment is, is I gave more than you and you didn't give back. I've been cheated. But “Fool me once, okay, it's your fault, but fool me twice, it's my fault.” This is where you have to take responsibility for giving what a man doesn’t need. Giving a man what he does need and women don't know that is actually-- Well, inspire him to give more to you. That's why we have to understand that men and women are different today. The civilization has changed. It used to be that men had a job. Men are jobless. We keep seeing they have the jobless problems. Well, basically, the job that men always had was to make money in my generation, a few before, to make money to provide for your family. If you could do that, you had a successful relationship. And also, you can have a job but not be paid well that's also we've been cheated by society, then you'll come home resenting, and feeling inadequate, and then your wife will not get what she needs, and there'll be lots of problems there. So, always there's been problems between men and women, particularly, when a man is out of work or he doesn't have a job that pays him well. 

But today, and why that doesn't work because then he doesn't have anything to give to his partner to support her. That's what makes men happy is to feel successful and providing for her needs. But look at the dilemma for men, which is, “What do I need him for?” Many women nix their fingers and say, “I don't need anybody. I would like it” and that's nice. You got lots of friends with men hanging out with them. But the deep need is when you have sex, you get in touch with this vulnerable part of us, childlike part of us that actually needs attention, affection, warmth, love, compliments, guidance, support, that's on our female side and on our male side, needs opportunities to be successful. Part of the dance between men and women is for women to learn to love men almost unconditionally, but learning how to ask to get more, but before you can ask to get more, you have to learn how to ask, but then you also have to know what's most important to me and feel that it's important. For example, food tastes much better when I'm hungry. I really feel my need for food. Boy, it tastes really good. Go for two days without food and eat. Whatever you eat will be heavenly. That's because you're missing it, you need it, and you're aware of what you need. For women is to be aware of what you need. 

Once you start having multiple orgasms since we're on that topic, you'll recognize, “This is what I need.” This will get you out of your head, this will bring you back to your female side, fantastic. Clitoral stimulation alone doesn't necessarily do that. If you're heterosexual, a man allowing a man to do that for you starts to balance the hormones, but then can take you to a much higher level through extended penetration, G-spot, C-spot, E-spot, there's a lot of spots in the vagina that start to open up and become arousing and become exciting. Just like we know the clitoris after you've been aroused enough, it will start to rise up and becomes engorged, then the G-spot will start to get engorged, and then there's a point beyond that, that scientists talk about the E-spot, and then there's the C-spot. C-spot is when the cervix comes down to the dance with the tip of the penis. Then there's also the clamping that can happen after she has her G-spot orgasm. There's a clamping where her whole vagina is stimulated, and then penetration more will go to the E-spot, then the C-spot. So, there's a lot of things that can happen. This is like a new terrain. A long time ago, we traveled across the ocean to America, so exciting, a new world, integrated world where people could be free. What a great, exciting thing this journey is. Well, once we start rising above to be having women be both on their male side and their female side, it opens the door for this multi-orgasmic experience. Not just that, it opens the door to sustained attraction, and joy, and happiness in your life. 

Now, my parents, for example, didn't have that, but they had contentment, they had fulfillment because they lived at a different time where women were not so much on their male side unless they had to be, and that was a source of stress. You're a woman, who's wants to be in a relationship and can't be in a relationship, and you have to do it all yourself, and it's hard to fight against a society that doesn't allow women to do it themselves. We've made great progress for women to feel free to go to their male side, for men that go to their female side, so, we have those two things, but then it becomes addictive, because it's too far out of balance, it's overreach. The whole key here, if you have access to go to your male side as a woman, you have to now work at learning how to go to a deeper level of your female side. A deeper level of your female side means somebody is holding you while you go to that place. There's somebody you're yielding against someone you're interacting with to go to this place. What that would look like is, if you've ever done therapy, you have a therapist and they ask you, “What's going on inside, and what else is going on inside, and why do you think that's happening, and now, what's deeper inside, what is it you wish, what is it you want, can you imagine having what you want, how would that feel?” 

These are the questions good therapists will ask called processing to go deep into your feelings. I do this every day for 50 years. Women come in and they're stressed out. [laughs] I process them in 15 minutes and they go, “Wow, I suddenly feel better. My anxiety is gone, my depression is gone, my rigidity is gone, my resentment is gone. It's gone for a few days.” And then you have to find it again because this is a new place to go to learn how to open the channels in your brain, the circuits in your brain to see the good in life rather than focus on the bad in life. All it takes is to dwell on the negative and those circuits become stronger and stronger. They become your pathways to go to. If you're stressed, if you talk a lot about negativity and make choices based upon resentment, for example, make choices based upon negativity-- the negativity in your heart control your behavior. If that controls your behavior, those channels get stronger and stronger. This is what happens to women who are divorced, for example is they feel hurt. The reason they feel hurt is they don't understand how they were equally responsible for the problems in their relationship. You see taking responsibility frees us to move on, but as soon as you have wounds and you don't know how to take responsibility for one healing them, and then get the knowledge to see how you contributed to that, then you're always feeling like a victim. 

One of my strategies with my clients is to help them understand their victim mentality. See, it's unfortunate, my partner, he doesn't like my parents, we can never have a fun time, and then I help point out to her. Well, look at you. Are you liking his parents? She says, “Oh, I'm always so good to them. I'm so good. I don't get anything back.” I said, “Oh, so you resent his parents?” “Well, yes, but I still behave like I don't.” I said, “It doesn't matter.” Underneath that resentment is, I hate them, and I hate him, and he's feeling the same things towards you. When you see that both sides are doing the same thing, it's an enlightened version of revenge. Revenge is, you hurt me, I want you to hurt, if now the score is settled. But in a relationship when you have this wisdom that men are from Mars gives people and then beyond Mars and Venus gives people stuff, they never even thought about. You know, that last session was so great because we talked about things that women don't even think about, because it's so easy always to see how we have been negatively affected. It's hard to know if you don't understand men how you negatively affect them. When you see there's an equality and inclusiveness, we are the same [laughs] and inequity, we should have the same. I'm just laughing at those words. Basically, most people don't know what equity means the way they use it. What it means is that everybody gets paid the same. It's communism. [laughs] The word equity means that there should be equal, everybody should have equal opportunity as opposed to being judged on the character, and your efficiency, and your capabilities. We're all different and there will always be richer people and poor people. Right now, there's a huge injustice, there's no doubt about that. But you don't just throw the baby out the bathwater. [laughs] You create solutions, but you don't throw away the reality that people are all different. 

We have, again, the differences between people and what they need to do achieve their goals. I have a staff of people that take care of me, I have a person who cleans my house, I have a person who does my yard work, I have a person who schedules my appointments. Why do I get to have all of that? Because I have more money. But why do I have more money and how do I keep keeping all those people supporting me is because with that support, I can do my job. My job is to do this, their job is to do that. So, everybody has their own needs. I need to make more money because I have to hire more people, so I can do what I'm doing. It's just that we need to have more heartfeltness in our heart to be more fair because there're aspects of our legal system that make everything very, very unfair. I'll give an example of that, which is, when I'm trying to do a business deal, make these contracts and everything. I go to my lawyer, a high paid San Francisco lawyer, and I say, “Look, I want to drop this contract with this person, but I need your help to see what is fair. I want to have a win-win situation. What's done and how can we be better?” My lawyer says, “I can't give you any advice on how to help that other person. My job is only to make sure I can get you the most.” That's their training. They're not allowed to think of what would be fair to the other person. Because now, where does that come from? Our legal system that says, “If I did a deal and he was thinking about a win-win situation, I could then come back and say, “Hey, you cheated me. I could have gotten more and you didn't give me more.” It's all so crazy. 

We have this craziness, because our hearts are closing. As we progress, we're all going in the wrong direction. We just have to recognize it and know that our suffering in our life, what we're missing out on our life. I'm talking about the broad case. You have to realize that the last year during this lockdown, depression, anxiety gone up 20%, 30% and suicides gone up 20%, 30% This is a massive disaster happening. This is where we overreact. You have government overreach, just the same thing in our relationships. Control overreach where women get lost and controlling men with their negativity. You see women go, “I'm not controlling, I'm just expressing how I feel.” But the man will feel controlled. Of course, she's doing that to get what she wants. I'm going to change you to give me more. But when you use negativity to get more, you always get less, you will get less. For men, what we do is we use our negativity to control to dominate. That's the whole thing about men throughout history. Primitive menus, anger, and intimidation, and demand are withholding in order to teach you are bad you should give me more. All these mechanisms are very programmed into people. They're programmed there. This is the past. But we can upgrade it now that women can be both independent, so you're not so needy, what allows you to go deeper into the vulnerable part of you which is needy. [laughs] But you say, you feel like, “I've now proven to myself that if I open my heart and depend on someone, if they betrayed me, if they leave me, I still have the ability to take care of myself.” Isn’t that beautiful?

See, that's interdependent. That means, I have an independence, and I have a dependence, and that's learning to balance. In a relationship, it's very hard to experience this deepening of your femininity without being in a relationship. However, you can by going to a therapist in a sense it's a pretend relationship or somebody gives you unconditional love, but you have to realize it's just pretend, it's not the real thing. You're paying that person, but they are training you and helping you when you can't get that help elsewhere through a relationship. After a while, my clients, all want to stay with me forever, and I said, “No, no, no, you have to learn to do this for yourself.” Eventually, I help them process their feelings, take responsibility for all negativity inside for holding on to anything and I help them to let go of it. But I show them how to do it because it comes back, it comes back until it's done. When it's done, you get to a deeper level. Life is a journey of growth, how can you continue to grow if you're not letting go of limitations. That's what we can do and a relationship helps you in that because it pushes your buttons. If you have sex with somebody in a relationship with someone, it's going to push your buttons. Pushing your buttons means it triggers unresolved issues inside yourself. By learning how to love, we all really can have a chance to learn how to love at a higher level by taking the recognition that my wife, Bonnie was, she'll be upset with me when I'm messy, and then I'll be upset with her when she's telling me, I'm messy. So, I have a resistance to her, but at the same time I love the neat beautiful home that she creates and that's why she loves that order. 

I'm not so good at it, but then when I embrace my resistance to her, and let it go, and understand, and do my best to find a compromise, I'm embracing the neat part of me as well. So, I'm growing. I'm growing and integrating the qualities that I resist in her the way she would express those trying to control, demand, and let it go, and recognize, I can take this step, I can take this step, and I don't have to resist that or feel unloved, because she's not always accepting me just as I am. There's a dance where we-- If you're attracted to somebody, you will have a chance to grow as opposed to being on an island, you can still grow. I'm just saying, there's a higher level that we can get through. I'm very spiritual person, I've studied in qigong in China for many years, in India for many, many years, and have learned about all these different traditions, I'm a Christian. I have all this stuff going on inside of me and you'll see in these ancient traditions thousands of years old, they always look at the Gods having sex. [laughs] These Tibetan tankas of the ecstasy, of the union, of the masculine and feminine. That we can achieve through relationship. You also can achieve it on your own if you're really, really good at processing your emotions, bringing up emotions. But still, there's nothing your partner triggering you and having someone to love you through that journey. That's the gift and that's what happens with orgasmic sex is you clear the way to go to higher and higher levels of that. So, those are some thoughts on that subject. Anything helpful?

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny when I was at school at USC, I actually won to a scholarship from the gender studies program. I wasn't in the gender studies program, but it was because I wrote a paper about the Salpetriere and Charcot on female hysteria in the 1800s.

John Gray: Oh, really? Oh, tell me more. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wrote about it about how I thought it was a suppression and basically a control of women at the Salpetriere, but it was presented as a scientific advance and we're liberating women because we're exploring this. But I argued that it was actually suppressing and controlling women. Then, I said that the anecdote to that today was that Lady Gaga, she embraced, because Gaga means hysterical, basically. It means nonsense. It's like, she was embracing this idea of the hysterical woman, but owning it and taking back, I guess, not being controlled by men. So, I've always been so fascinated by the evolution of women's role in society, and power dynamics, and sexuality. So, it's so exciting to hear you touch on all this.

John Gray: Yeah, it's very, very fun subject to look at interesting that I brought that up today because I don't know, I’m going to talk about the hysteria thing. See, Freud was talking about hysteria and he's talking about in terms of over reactivity. The women historically which you’ve mentioned that had more of that were the ones who meant and the culture suppressed women's male side. If you're a princess, for example, you're not allowed to pick out your outfits. Somebody combs your hair. You see these British movies of what royalty was like. But if you go to China, they were these really thin dresses, and they would bundle their toes, their feet, and that was a symbol that you're not a working woman. You are a high-class woman. They would have all these things that suppressed their masculinity, and that made them appear way more arousing to men, because the reality is masculinity wants to put out the fire. If a woman can't do something for herself, a man wants to jump in there, and do that, and get the smile on her face. Okay, so, that's this male-female dynamic. But that was cramping the freedom of women to find their authentic self, which is both feminine and masculine, but now we have a phenomenon where our culture, as well as our education tends to push women to their male side and minimizes their feminine side. 

Because the feminine side, if you're purely on your masculine side, you are a logical being. That's all you are. We're all balanced or both, but logic is producing testosterone is detached. Let me step back from this, let me be logical about this. There's never ever if your logical reason to be emotional. [laughs] Logic will kill any emotion. If I'm afraid, well, that hasn't yet happened. Well, there's nothing I can do about it now. If there's nothing I can do about it and that generates fear, it's already happened. So, I can't change the past, it hasn't happened yet, so, I can focus on right now. It's no big deal. This what our male side does. It's a rationalization. It rationalizes and rationalization is an excellent stress reducing tool. It produces testosterone, but then you have to have the feminine side of you come up to balance that out. Otherwise, if you just rationalizing everything away, then you never have feeling, you never have emotion, and you never have joy, you never have happiness. As a monk for nine years, never unhappy as a monk. If there was stress in my body it was all because of my practice and I would let it go through another practice. 

There's never any blame. There's always 1,000% responsibility. But the joy that I felt when I got married was multiplied 1000-fold because now through sex and intimacy, I could be on my male logical side validating my wife's emotional side. What I'm proposing here and people don't realize this yet is that if a woman can make her money, if a woman can be safe, not depend on man for those things, what do you depend on a man for? That's the big question we're looking at and that takes you to this higher level multi-orgasmic, where you can surrender to another being, you can be completely naked, mentally, emotionally, and physically, what an experience. A brief look of that is the definition of friendship, which is I love this definition of friendship, somebody told me that having someone who's delighted in your presence with no intention to change you in any way. Isn’t that beautiful? That's so loving. That's acceptance. The reason we call that a friendship rather than a marriage is because it's so easy to not have an investment in changing somebody to like them which is a form of love, because you don't depend on them for anything. Or, you depend on them for what they already you know they can do and you're not asking for more. So, there's no sense of wanting to change. That's describes my parents’ relationship and more traditional successful relationships. 

The romance went away, but there was no need to change your partner because society had already defined a man's role and a woman's role and the definition of a man's role was something to provide for the woman. If he had a job, for example, and women wouldn't marry a man unless he fulfilled her basic needs that she felt at that time, which were the lower needs for survival, and for security, and for belonging. Maslow talked about our deeper needs. Now, suddenly, we’ve rise to a higher level as you fulfill the lower needs, the next level up is to achieve. We all want to become more independent, so that naturally thing is to be more independent, we go to our male side. But then the next level up according to Maslow's the good description is intimacy. That's what a relationship is about is to now through another person, sharing yourself with another person be seen at the most deep vulnerable level of who you are. And also men when they have sex, they're also being seen at the deepest, vulnerable level. He's taking a risk to commit himself to you, to depend on you, to depend on your love that he doesn't really depend on the world for that so much, but he depends on you. The neurosis that we all have, it just shows up differently in men or women is the neurosis is that we open our hearts to depend on our partners for love because it feels so good to be seen, and to be adored, to be appreciated, to be praised, to be admired, to be respected, to be the accepted. That feels so good. 

I can go out in the world and you can put on a uniform, you can put on an outfit, and you can be loved for that, but people aren't really experiencing you fully. When you can strip down and someone's still loves you and embraces you that is just the-- I want to say cat's meow. That is a child. That's a childlike part of us that just drinks up love and makes us feel fantastic. The problem with that is then it feels so good, we become addicted to that. Once we're addicted to that, it's our partner's job to make us feel that way. But our partners can only make us feel that way if we already can make ourselves feel happy and fulfilled. That's the dance. And so, the higher-level relationship has a basic philosophy that goes with it, if I put it this way, which is, my wife's job is not to make me happy and my job is not to make her happy. We learned to do that ourselves. That's why your independent, happy woman that you are. That is the perfect foundation to now allow a man to make you happier is he job is only to make you happier. It's really easy to make you happier. [laughs] You're not demanding me to change for you to be happy, because you're already happy and that makes it-- It's like a job that you go to and you always get paid. It's going to a business and they don't have any money, or going into restaurant where nobody else is there. [laughs] You always get a little nervous, when all the other restaurants are full and this one's empty, you think, “What's wrong with this one?” 

But there's a dance of when you're happy and fulfilled and then you'll also feel the need to have more, and a man can fulfill that. But you have to know what is it that you're looking for? Well, one is you're looking for a building a relationship where you can be orgasmic, where you can actually get naked with somebody. Because if you're in the work world, you can't just share everything about what's going on inside of you. Then you have what Freud would talk about is the healing part of us, which is the overreactive part of us. We all have a crazy part of us and we all have a very logical side of us and crazy what I mean by that is not logical. That would be emotional. The phenomenon of emotions is such that all you have to do to heal an emotion is have somebody feel what you feel and it's gone. All negativity is about not having what you want, and what we want at the deepest level is connection, and that connection and a positive connection. When somebody is actually connecting with your emotions and feeling your emotions, it will release them. It feels good to do. The problem between men and women is, if you're looking to your partner to make you happier, I mean, to make you happy, you'll share your emotions as a way of getting them to change. When you're already happy and your negativity comes up, then you can share those emotions with your partner, not so they'll change, so that you'll change and feel better, because somebody can hear you and validate what you feel. This is a whole journey for the more enlightened woman, which you are. You're independent, you're happy or you’re fulfilled. So, what am I missing out on? What I'm saying is to be naked in front of someone, and see yourself at a deeper level, and go to a deeper level and deeper level. 

That's what's interesting is that without someone seeing you, it's hard to go to a deeper level. I won't say it's not possible, because there could be other ways to do this and I just don't know of them. I do know that if you're not used to getting naked, some people physically like to go around getting naked, [laughs] but most people don't, and go to the workplace and start taking off your clothes, you usually will feel embarrassed. It feels them shame, basically, and that shame gives rise to some embarrassment. But if you look at a person's face when they're embarrassed, they blush. What does that blush? It's increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex of the brain. Increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex of the brain rather than to the primitive part of the brain, where all our conditioning comes from. The only way we can change conditioning, and become better and better and better is to the prefrontal cortex of our brain. It's able to reflect and see ourselves and with the wisdom of knowing, I can do better, I can be better. But seeing ourselves with love and wanting to be better, not seeing ourselves with you're not good enough, you should be better. That's the another missed insight, a missing understanding in our society. There’re so many very successful people who say that, “Well, if my parents hadn't been really strict and they hadn't punished me a lot, I would have never been the man I am today.” I go, “Actually, you don't know what you would have been.” [laughs] You actually could have been the same man you are today towards of success, but you probably not have three divorces. You'd be more loving, and more empathetic, and more understanding, because punishment is old fashioned. It's really monkey consciousness. You step on my foot, I have to step on your foot or I can't sleep at night. That's revenge. 

What I was talking about earlier is the recognition of what revenge is, is really I want you to feel what I feel. That's what compassion is, that's what empathy is. There's another level to that, which is, if you're blaming me, look at how you have also done the same to me, but in a different way. That's what we have to recognize. There’s always be differences between men and women. If you even look at the anatomy of an argument between men and women, this is a Men are from Mars, brilliant chapter. I love it. Nobody's ever given me resistance to it. It seems such an extreme thing to say, but I say it with confidence because I see it in every session or almost every session, which is the anatomy of an argument is a woman is unhappy and a man is now going to tell her, why she doesn't need to be unhappy. That's called fixing and solving, invalidating, correcting, or whatever it is. She's unhappy, she wants him to change, he then wants her to change from feeling negative to feeling positive. “Hey, love me. Don't, don't get upset with me, basically.” His motivation is I want to feel loved, her motivation and the only way I can feel loved is if you let go of, which means you change back to the woman I married and she's over there going, but you're the one who changed, that's why I'm upset. She's upset, he then tries to fix it, and he's expecting her to go, “Oh, what a good idea. I didn't realize that. I have no reason to be upset.” [laughs] But that makes her more upset because that will push down her estrogen to just solve the problem. Solving problems produces male hormones, makes men feel good, it can throw women further out of balance, particularly at a time where she's wanting to share what's inside of her. We, men have to learn the art of listening and women have to learn the art of sharing. 

Now, certainly, be great when women can actually listen to men, but women who actually can listen to men are the ones who are codependent and they end up building all this resentment, and over and over and over, because they don't listen to themselves. The first step and this creation of a new kind of relationship is where men learn how to stay masculine and not get upset when women are upset. Oh, my God, if you could just imagine, I forget that one artist. She wrote a very big selling song about, again, I can't remember right now, other people's thoughts. But I met her in a conference. She was, “I'm a witch, I'm a devil, I'm a woman, I'm a lover, I'm a mother, I'm a--" You know that song, where she talks about all ? Women wear all these different hats and they're not all positive. She can be all over the place and I need a man who can handle that. Well, okay, you do. What he needs is a woman. [laughs] He needs to find the partner that can handle that, but he needs a woman who can also be responsible to let go of that negativity through sharing with him. That's the art. It's hard to keep talking about this without being able to demonstrate it, but it's a new phenomenon, I call it Venus talk, where on a regular basis in a relationship, you basically become naked mentally and emotionally. That means you don't edit yourself and you check yourself whenever you're compromising your truth in order to please the other person, and then you're being more authentic. Learn how to be authentic, but do it in a way that works. 

For example, let's say, you have a point of view, and you express it, and the man says, “Oh, well, that's not what I think.” Then he says, what he thinks and you get mad at him. Well, you shouldn't think that or you're with a man, and you're expressing your point of view, and he goes, “Oh, I think that's terrible.” And you go, “Well, why do you think that?” You actually get him a chance to explain his thought and listen to that and say to him, “Well, if that makes sense, I can see your point of view. I just have a different perspective on it.” You learn how to communicate and we all have to learn this, how to hear another person's point of view without getting upset with them. But then there's a dance to doing this that works because when a woman has emotions, that means men stop talking, start listening. Women have to practice when they're upset and not make rhetorical questions, because a man hears a question, he gives an answer. [laughs] “How could you do that, if you love me? Honey, you don't you know I've done this and this for you and I do this for you. You expect me to do all this.” There's always an argument there, which he's trying to change him and he'll try to change your back. 

We have to recognize that when women are unhappy or whenever they feel I have to change my partner to be to be happy. That's a losing strategy. To be happy, I have the ability to be happy. Does a child need anybody else to be happy? Well, they do. They need love and support. But as adults, we can give ourselves that love and support. See, we have a rational brain. Using your male side, you can listen to your female side, which is this childlike part of you and hear it with an umbrella over you, or it's having a jacket over you when it's cold to keep you warm is the parent inside of us is some people's form of therapy is called re-parenting is you hear what's inside of you as if you're a parent listening to it, and validating the feelings, and getting all the feelings out. Now, it doesn't always work for people, because they don't understand. They don't really have a higher level of gender intelligence. Whenever somebody's upset, there're many layers of the emotion that have to be explored and felt before the stress charge will go away. For example, if you're angry, well, you'll stay angry forever. It will go away if somebody obeys you. That's it. That's the monkey part of us. I'll tell you a joke. I've always just teaching what I'm learning, and long before I married my wife, Bonnie, I was married to another woman. But during the dating process, she'd do things that upset me and I would just stop talking. I would shut down many men do and I go sit in the bathtub, [laughs] my cave. I didn't know it was a cave [unintelligible [00:50:08] I go sit in the bathtub. Then she'd come in crying, and she'd have a notebook with her and say, “Tell me what I did wrong.” [laughs] Kneeling before me because the bathtub you can't be standing up. So, she's kneeling there in a kneeling position, she's got her notebook, “Tell me what I did wrong.” After I said a few things, she did wrong and she's actively writing it down. “Oh, I was so happy. [laughs] All my stress ran away.” That's the history of men and women. That's a primitive form of conflict resolution is just yield. 

What's interesting is, men instinctively understand this in another way, which is two men fighting one of the men has to say, “Okay, I yield.” That's good enough. You're right, I'm wrong, you're better, I'm less. That will solve that argument. And now, there's a pecking order. But for women, their life was in danger when a man was angry, because he lose control. He has an aggressive part of her, when he's really feeling out of control and his estrogen levels are soaring, that means he's angry, that means his testosterone used to be high, now, it shrunk. Now, going down, that's when men get really, really angry and they lose control. They're like animals, a beast. He's a beast. At that time when he's a beast, because the beast part of him doesn't have any logic, doesn't have any understanding of another person's point of view, he’s not thinking of consequences of what he's doing, he’s not realizing this is not all the time, he just reacts. When he's a beast, he just reacts. 

There were those tigers in Las Vegas with those famous magicians and he'd fed those tigers, he was a parent to those tigers as a gay couple. He loved those tigers. They were just a part of the family. But somehow, the tiger got spooked in one of the shows, and had a fight or flight response, and that animal and it mauled him. Suddenly, there's no reality other than an instinctive reaction to danger. And so, he almost died. Eventually, he couldn't work anymore and so forth. It was terrible. But he had such a beautiful relationship with that animal, but a beast is a beast. When you trigger the beast, there's no logic, there's no control, there's just an instinctive reaction of aggression. That's inside of every man and a man has to evolve beyond that. Of course, we all have. We're living in a civilized world. But when his estrogen levels go so high by arguing, being really angry, that will trigger that. Women knew that and so, what they learned is when men are angry, how do you protect yourself, [laughs] how do you survive, and it was basically kneel before him and [laughs] say, “What did I do wrong? I promise not to do it again.” But that then suppressed women. It kept them from having a voice. She can't say what she feels, she pushes it all down. 

I was watching a Chinese movie the other day and it was really funny. When the children are bad or when somebody's bad before the king, they'll go out in the cold, and in front of the gate of the castle, and they kneel. They just sit there and kneel and finally, that actually gives a certain amount of respect to the authority figure, and then they will soften. But that's the backwards way. When you have to respect a man to open them up, then you're increasing his feminine energy and he becomes a tyrant. This is respect for men, too much overreach respect on a man will make him a tyrant. This is what women have done in the past is they've over respected men and become doormats and then that just feeds tyrant and a man. You would think, “Well, if I respected him, he would become better.” No. If a woman is respected, he will become better. Meaning, if he learns how to respect her, to honor her, that's why we have this thing called monogamy, and commitment, and man providing for the woman. 

All providing is, is respecting another person's need. When a woman's need is fulfilled, there's an automatic reaction of appreciation. He says, “When I do something for you that you feel appreciation and when you feel appreciation,” that raises my testosterone or anybody's testosterone. But for men, that softens their heart, that makes them better people. This is why tyrants have to be overthrown through revolutions where people speak up, but has to be nonviolent otherwise, then you become the bad guy. 

For women is to learn, if you're a doormat, a codependent you make your man a tyrant. Your obedience to him is a poison to him. His obedience to your needs and not just whatever you want, but what your needs are, will make him a wonderful man, makes him a gentle man, makes him a strong man, makes him a hero. But to do that you have to be vulnerable, so that you can be affected by him. You're being affected by him in a positive way, it rebuilds him. To be affected by him in a negative way, it shrinks him down. What you do is, when you do have negative reactions, you have the ability to let them go without changing the outer world. How to let go of negativity without changing the outer world? Well, there's a lot of ways to do that. One is just be realistic. Having realistic expectations, you can't expect the guy to be like a girlfriend. A lot of women don't understand. Men and women are different, you he is not going to be your girlfriend, he has a certain role in your life, understand what that is. Right now, his role is no longer to be your major provider, his role is no longer to be a protector, you can do that for yourself. So, it's like you're well fed, so you don't feel the need to eat. So, you have to find out what is your need and the need is for intimacy. 

Once you can accomplish achievement, when you look what I can do, which and now what you've done is, life is not fulfilling. These needs build on each other. When we live in a society where everybody can achieve, you can be educated and all that, then suddenly the need for intimacy becomes greater. Intimacy is through revealing, seeing into you deeper and deeper levels. When you stop opening up to deeper and deeper levels, the passion goes away. That's what's happening today. Why women don't want to get married? They haven't experienced that the orgasmic pleasure of getting what I need. They don't feel I need a man. It'd be nice to have an [unintelligible [00:56:31]. What do you need a man for? Almost like a therapist who will be there, and listen to you, and be present for you, when you're going through stressful times. You don't need them to solve all your problems, because in the past, women couldn't. They didn't have the wherewithal or the training to do a lot of the things necessary to survive in this world, but now, you can. What do you need him for? You need him to come deeper into your feminine side. The things that do it is romance is where he prioritizes you and you get to feel, he's doing everything for me. That's one form of romance. But a deeper level and that's often full of fantasy, too, but the fantasy of romance is when a man does something that you would love for him to do without having to ask and even you don't even know what it is you need and he does it for you. It's like you made a comment back in February, something that you're missing in your life and then Christmas comes along, he remembers that That is just so romantic, because it says I care, I care about you. 

A lot of men won't do that. You think he doesn't care about you, but he's over there caring about you thinking if I just make money, I can buy more things for you. See how that is. caring looks differently, but men have to understand those easy things to demonstrate caring is to see her, to compliment her, to be affectionate with her, plan some dates with her, have a conversation with her a week in advance and say, “Hey, let's talk about some things we could do next week.” See, men don't realize. That's very romantic. It's your chance to express different points of view and then she can be romantic, too. It's let him know what she wants, what she'd like, but just say two or three things, maybe four or five things and say, you pick and surprise me. Then you get to be surprised, you also get to know he cares, because he followed through on what you wanted and what you liked. Even if you don't like it, it doesn't matter. Never ask a man, “What would you like to do?” That's never a romance. [laughs] Healthy romance is when he's going to do what you like to do and in his private time, he does what he likes to do. He doesn't need you to do what he likes to do. 

What he likes to do with you is do things for you and to understand you've got this gift of masculinity, which is amazing. They're happy to do things for you and they don't experience all this resentment and complaining that women do. Their only complaint is that he does these things and you're not happy, but you can't be happy if you don't first learn how to process your negativity without trying to change him. But you can use him. We don't mind being tools, men. We are tools. Use him to help you process your emotions, which will bring you but always back to feeling good, but long before that, you need to first use a therapist or practice one of the techniques I teach where you journal, write out what you feel. You actually experience negativity going away. Like yesterday, a few days ago, I was counseling a person. She just has so much anxiety. Anxious, anxious. I said, “Okay, always with. That's anxiety is excessive fear. Well, you can't have excessive fear unless you have suppressed anger.” Let's just get angry. Let's practicing I hate, I hate, I hate. Now, tell me you hate your partner, you hate your life. you hate his parents. And you do that for a while and it just helps balance the awareness of what is really going on inside of you and it's temporary. It's always. We are loving beings, but hate and anger is in there. For most women hate and anger or not easy to be accessed inside of them because it's been so dangerous throughout history. 

The only way women can express their anger and their hate, and life sucks, the way they can express that is they have to use their logic to find justifiable reasons why they're so angry and upset. This is when women are expressing their anger. Usually, they're really, really rationalizing in the wrong direction. They're rationalizing losing logic in the world to find imaginary reasons to be so upset. This is a whole culture. You see that people are afraid to take off their masks now. This is a very scary thing because smiling is the most important communication that exists on the planet. Smiling. Smiling says to another person, “You're safe in my presence.” If you don't have a smile, you're not safe in the presence of another person. The absence of the smile is a major stress stimulator. Smiling says that other person has positive feelings in your presence and the absence of the smile, you don't have a certainty of that. That's why many times when men think their way on their male side being analytical, they'll have no feeling temporarily, so the smile will go away and that is scary to women. 

There're some husbands and this is a good thing for women to know that the man's facial expression is the same when he's thinking about something, when he's planning to sue something, or when he's angry about something. There's no difference in his expression. [laughs] That's more of a moderate angry, and annoyance, and whatever. You're thinking, “Why is she doing that?” You're not showing the emotion. Some men, when they do get angry, when they have a lot of estrogen, they'll show the emotion and amplify it through their facial expression. But generally, when a man is detaching, it's not necessarily he's angry. But when he is angry, he also will detach. You don't have any way of knowing it. The smile is very, very important. Even in my relationship, I'll just say to my partner sometimes, “Smile” and she'll say to me, “Would you give me a smile?” I can really go, “Yes, big smile.” Because you should not feel stressed in the presence of your partner. Many women are terrified to show what's inside. That shows up on a surface level of women's obsession with their bodies as they always feel as not lovable, not good enough, should be better, should be better. And so, there's a fear that someone was going to judge them. I have an affirmation for this Christmas. I was like, create some affirmations to ponder. A new one for me is, I allow others to love me unconditionally, I allow others to love me unconditionally.

Because if you're allowing someone to love you unconditionally, it means you can be yourself completely. When I have to become somebody else to be lovable to you, then I'm not allowing you to love me unconditionally. I'm allowing you to love me conditionally based upon look what I can do, look what I can give you, look what I can wear, but just allow someone to love you unconditionally. It's so relaxing to remind ourselves that we are safe, people love us, we don't have to be perfect, we do our best, and that's good enough. But when we caught up in our stress for women primarily, and we haven't talked about what men need to do, but it's learning how to come back to their female side, which in the beginning is to explore negativity, and then always is important it is to look at the levels of negativity, anger, sadness, fear, and regret, sorrow, or guilt, one or the other. To look at all four, then look at, “Okay, what is it you really want, what do you wish?” Come back to your positive motivation in life, then focus on the now and what I'm grateful for, what I'm happy about, what I'm excited about, and what I'm proud of. See, those are really intrinsic positive emotions to have. You see, guilt is the opposite of feeling proud about yourself. Fear, you're pushing away, excitement is moving towards, happiness is letting go of your sadness, and gratitude, let’s go of anger. You first feel those negative emotions which are blocked. All you do is feel them go through them, understand them a bit why you feel that way, and keep in mind they're all irrational overreactions, and then come back to the truth of, “Look, what is good in my life.” 

That's really something that women are very good at once they learn to do it, because women have the ability, when they're not under stress, when they're not having a stress reaction to see imperfection and see the goodness in it. See, women actually don't demand. The female part of us doesn't demand perfection. What it does is, it balances imperfection with perfection. It balances, when he doesn't do this, but he does do that. Well, he's not really that, but look what he is. And so, there's a balance there. I got that really clear one time when I was hugging my wife. We're learning about the power of hugs, because hugs create oxytocin that raises estrogen, it helps calm women, it helps open their heart again, nonsexual hugs. I was hugging my wife because she was a little distant and cold, something I did annoyed her, bothered her, and I just went gave her out this hug, and I made it like a 10 second hug, and at the end because it took about six seconds and then she softened, and then I just kept a little bit more, and then she said, “You know, John, that hug was amazing. Because in the beginning, my mind was filled with all the bad things you do, you forgot to do this, you made a mess there, your clothes, you dropped food on the floor.” The woman's brain goes busy, busy, busy on negativity and then she said, “And then suddenly, I started remembering all the good things you do for me, and the stress went away.” So, focus on the negative, no problem. Just don't go tell your partner that, and then come back to the positive, and then demonstrate the positive by having a smile.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I've had just so many epiphanies about myself. Now, I understand why I so value my therapist. I knew, but now, I have a whole another understanding of that. I'm lucky because I am an independent woman and all of that, but I still get to express myself. I'm not in a male-dominated workplace, where I have that suppression. I still get to feel very feminine. Maybe that helps with my balance. That's just all so, so fascinating. A quick question for the men side of things. This is what I wanted to ask you after our last conversation and it just because I think my audience will appreciate it in general being a biohacking audience and all of that stuff. Do you think there's a connection between ejaculation for men and longevity?

John Gray: Oh, my God, it is a big huge topic. I thought mainly talking to women. I forgot this was biohackers. Okay, give me just a couple of minutes. The ultimate bio hack in my test-- I've talked about how testosterone levels tend to be at a higher level when a man is not stressed. When a man is stressed, they go down. Okay, that's all there is to it. All depressed men, all anxious men, all irritable men, all angry men, at that time their testosterone is low. When you do something to raise it up, then your estrogen levels will stop dominating. You stop being so overly emotional. That's what we talked about in the first talk. So, now, we look at what ejaculation does. An ejaculation just means that you were too greedy, and you wanted more and more pleasure, and your body couldn't handle the energy, and so, it's short circuits. Basically, what happens is, your estrogen levels, because you love it so much, loving something, enjoying something, pleasure is estrogen stimulating. When you get greedy and you want more, then you get this huge surge of estrogen, which then knocks down your testosterone. Your testosterone goes back down to what we'll call baseline. This is measurable. We talked about masturbation, ejaculation, go online, there's all these studies saying that, “Oh, when you have sex and your guy, and you masturbate, it doesn't lower your testosterone.” 

It does and I'll give you the evidence of it. That is, when you have sex, you go back to your baseline, and the research was done is, the Japanese did a study, two big studies showing a large portion of men that if they ejaculate on Saturday night and sex, the next day, their testosterone goes back to their baseline, their normal testosterone levels may be a little lower. But the other research says back to baseline. We'll go with that. But what they found is that for six days, you'll stay around baseline. On the seventh day, if you haven't ejaculated, your testosterone levels increase 50%. My testosterone levels at seven years old are 50% higher all the time and that's because I've learned how to have sex, the ultimate bio hack in my opinion. I used to take all these supplements for biohacking everything. [laughs] I really do anything now, because I've mastered it. Thank God, it took me a long time to figure out how to do this. Our addiction to ejaculating. Once you master your addiction to ejaculation, you now can have sex in a certain way where you have one orgasm, another orgasm, another orgasm, but you don't ejaculate when you have an orgasm. There're many techniques for doing this. I have my own technique, which hasn't yet been taught evidently because it's more about detachment and control. Mine's more about balancing my feminine and masculine side. It's never having sex for pleasure, whereas women should have sex for pleasure and love. But the man should primarily enjoy the pleasure because it helps him to feel. See, when you experience pleasure, you stop resisting. When you stop resisting, you can feel more. And then, the purpose of it is to feel more to feel my love for my partner, and to express that love. Sex becomes a way for me to feel more, so I can feel my love to my partner. 

You're going along and at a certain point your body can’t handle more pleasure. That's called the plateau. Your body has to take time to build up its ability to receive more, and more, and more. Your body surges, that's arousal, then this is all been mapped out, and then there's a plateau, and at the end of the plateau, people speed up or do various things to try to make it more intense. To make it more intense is to imply it wasn't good enough before. That's called the plateau. The plateau is a time where you can feel more love for your partner and express that love, and then what happens is you realize that now, you're not going to ejaculate. Then you rise up to another level of excitement and passion, and then when you have to hit that plateau, then you recognize I'm feeling more love for my partner, I'm making love to them, I'm not just having pleasure. Not to let the desire for pleasure override the need to feel more love in your heart. There's a whole dynamic called edging. You just have to stay away from where your body has that ejaculation response. You realize what that ejaculation response is. It's just you got too intense, you need to relax, go down, that'd be so greedy, and they'll come back up, and then go back down, and go back up. Each time is a wave that gets higher and higher and higher. Basically, you're multi-orgasmic and every thrust is another orgasm for her and you. You're having this multiple experience together. So, that's the ultimate bio hack. 

You can start by learning to not be addicted to masturbation. To give up all porn, to give up all porn and if you don't have a partner to have sex with once a week, that will free you. The first step is just have sex once a week or ejaculate only once a week and never with porn. If you don't have a partner to have sex with and you don't use porn, your body will come back. It will say, “I want sex, I want sex,” and you have an erection you won't be able to stop it, and that will happen once a week. If it's happening more than that, that's your addiction to sex. That's your monkey brain inside. We as human beings are addicted to sex. What happens is you can free yourself from addiction and then what you'll see is your testosterone levels will become higher and higher. Your ability to stay stable, motivated, logical, heartfelt, all of the best qualities a marriage has in the beginning for example, you can have all the time if you regulate the ultimate bio hack, which is give up your addiction to masturbation or sex without giving up sex, but make sex making love.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, very important question. Does that apply to women as well?

John Gray: Yes, absolutely. For women, you're basically throwing your lifeforce away to masturbate. Vibrators actually desensitize your clitoris and they also produce more testosterone, which is why women who had low testosterone, who had anxiety, they masturbate them twice a week, and that would bump their testosterone, up and they feel better. Well, you don't need more testosterone, women today. What they need is more estrogen. Estrogen is only when you're yielding to somebody else.

Melanie Avalon: Because with men and they're ejaculating, they're releasing sperm, but women, the ovaries will be a completely separate cycle. Do you think there's the same longevity implications there with women masturbating?

John Gray: What we know is that when women masturbate, what they're doing is they're inhibiting estrogen, and estrogen is usually what women are off on. Most women are not high estrogen. They're most low estrogen. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. All right. Well, this has been so, so amazing. You're just such a wealth of knowledge and again, I could ask you a million more questions.

John Gray: Well, let's do it, again. I'm a biohacker and happy to support people. We can go more deeply into sex, next time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, the last question I always ask and I asked you last time, but I'll ask it again, especially since it clearly is so important to both of us, it's what is something that you're grateful for?

John Gray: Oh, I'm so grateful that I have a job that pays well and I'm able to help people. I'm also grateful for my children, and my family, and all that good stuff, too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, John and we will have to schedule another one for the future. It's just been amazing. Bye.

John Gray: Bye-bye.

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