The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #311 - Karena Kilcoyne

TRANSCRIPT

Karena Kilcoyne
I really want people to understand that they're not alone in their storytelling and that there is a way out. It takes a lot of effort and work and self-awareness to open your heart and to reconnect and to feel like you're part of humanity, that you're not isolated.

The biggest mirror you have in your life to who you are as a result of trauma is what relationships you choose. Most of us come out of childhood and we're in early adulthood and we still don't know how to really love ourselves.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this.

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast. Friends, this was such a powerful conversation that I had with Karina Kilcoin. Her story of what she went through growing up is wild. And in today's conversation, we talk all about her book Rise Above the Story, and we dive deep into how you can actually overcome trauma. This was a really emotional, beautiful conversation for me. And we talk about so many things, things like what emotions are the most important and what emotions are appropriate, the needs of relationships, combating victimhood, the concept of self-love and being enough, bias in our memories, how to achieve awareness, how to actually forgive, and so much more.

I cannot thank Karina enough for sharing her story, and I'm definitely looking forward to her next book. The show notes for today's episode will be at melanieavalon.com slash story. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. All right, I think that's all the things. Without further ado, please enjoy this incredible conversation with Karina Kilcoin. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited and honored about the conversation I am about to have. I am here with a beautiful human today and the backstory on today's conversation is once I saw the idea behind this book, I knew I just had to read it and interview the author. I'm here with Karina Kilcoin. She has this book called Rise Above the Story, Free Yourself from Past Trauma and Create the Life You Want. And we talk a lot on this show about the role of trauma in mental and physical health and wellness and our mindset regarding things and how we can really work on our perspective of our lives.

And Karina's story, I'm sure we will get into a lot of it in today's show is really, I mean, there's a lot in there. So Karina has her own story of trauma and I'm sure we'll talk about the different types of trauma and even if listeners trauma might not seem to be the same sort of trauma that Karina went through, I'm sure we'll talk about how this is applicable to everybody.

Melanie Avalon
But in the story, Karina tells the story of her trauma and how it affected her life, how she maybe at certain points thought she was over it and realized that it was still there and how the story that she was telling herself about what she went through was really having a grip on her whole existence. And what's really, really incredible in this book is not only do you hear Karina's story, but she provides a very actionable formula for you to realize your story, become aware of it, navigate through it, untangle it and then ultimately rise above it.

And it's so empowering. The book has so many, not only riveting stories, but also very practical exercises that you can do to actually implement what Karina has discovered to help you get out of these stories that you might be in. So I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It personally affected my life and I'm sure it will so many others as well.

So Karina, thank you so much for being here.

Karena Kilcoyne
Oh, hi Melanie, thank you for having me and thank you for those kind words. You are all over the place and knowing about all these wonderful bio-hacking things.

So the fact that you got something so powerful out of my book means a lot. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
I really, really did. I loved it.

And speaking of biohacking, you had a chapter or section as well, which actually touched on quite a few different biohacking type things. It's kind of like, I guess, supplemental or alternative or additional pass that people can take to help, you know, get out of their heads and their stories. So I was like, oh, that's unexpected. But I really enjoyed that. Okay, so many places to go with this. It's a little bit ironic because actually, the ironic thing I was going to say was the first question I usually ask is, tell us a little bit about your personal story. But that's like a large part of this conversation today. So maybe before we talk about that, though, I'm super curious, writing a book, because you're also a former trial lawyer as well. I mean, you have a lot on your plate. Writing a book, like what led to deciding to actually put this into a book and present it to people that

Karena Kilcoyne
The book journey for me was quite long and a long and winding road, if you will. The first version of the book I wrote was more just me and a very cathartic few months of getting my story out, and it was very just memoir-based. At that phase, I wasn't quite sure even what I wanted to do with it, if I even wanted it out in the public, but I did it more because writing has always, and journaling has always been a way that I have uncovered the deepest, darkest parts of myself. The first version and the first few drafts were really just this memoir version, and I just dumped it all out, and I cried all the way through it, and it was very cathartic. I realized that I still had so much emotional attachment to it all that it wasn't in a space where I would ever really want it to be out in public.

As I sat on it for a couple more years, I realized that I went through some more healing and did some more things for therapy and other types of modalities. I realized that what was so powerful about what I was feeling and what I was going through was I really wanted to create a guidebook for people. I felt like when I started my journey into wholeness and into healing that there really wasn't something in a very simplified form. There are beautiful, profound books out there about trauma and what it does to your brain and what it does to your body, but they're thick and they're heady and they're cumbersome. If you are in the thick of it, sometimes those books are hard to absorb. While I read a lot of them on my journey, I really wanted to summarize a lot of information, and I wanted to create this book as a guidebook to people who were starting out their journey or maybe in the journey and felt stuck, and they didn't really know where to go. I take a lot of those heady, complicated, intellectual books and I pull out the meaningful, important, poignant information, and I have it in the book. But my deepest desire with this book, this rise above the story, is I really wanted to give people a way in and a way through and a way to ultimately get beyond their trauma and discover who they really are.

Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. And you definitely accomplished that. The visceral experience, at least for me, of reading the book was I really felt like you were there with me speaking, you know, holding my hand, guiding me through this. So that's definitely that goal you had.

You definitely accomplished it for sure. So does that mean when you were writing version two after having your cathartic release of writing the first version? That's when you were really organizing your thoughts about the step-by-step process and the exercises to do, it was happening then when you were writing it.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah. So when I realized that the gift I wanted to give people was this roadmap, this guidebook, I kind of went back through my own journey and I thought, what were the big moments? What were the big highlights? And being a former criminal defense attorney and trial lawyer, a lot of that when you get to trial is storytelling. And it's how to put together an argument, how to put together the evidence, how to put together... So while I have a very spiritual creative part to my nature, I also have a very analytical mind by training and education.

So it started to become very clear, like I would have dreams or I'd wake up in the middle of the night and think, oh yes, that's how I would define that phase of my healing. That's what that was. That was my awareness. That was my acknowledging. That was my releasing it. That was my... And so it started for me to... I started to really see that there were these definitive points and landmarks of then I shifted into this phase and then this is where I felt more enlightened or more worthy of what was to come next. And so as I was putting it together, I started to really have these epiphanies of this is how I was feeling and this is what it was, but how do I describe that in a way that feels relatable and obtainable? And that's when I really gave it those specific three steps as they are laid out in the book.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I love that. Speaking of stories, and I never thought about that before about, you know, the lawyer and the criminal defense lawyer and the role of stories. Something that is going to say stresses me out pun intended, but something that has always I've been very aware of surrounding stories is so if something happens to me doesn't have to be something quote traumatic just anything anything where it's going to be a memory that I anticipate revisiting. So something emotionally charged likely.

I am very aware that the first time I reflect back on that story or whatever happened to me, I'm crystallizing a version of it in my head. And I know that every time I retell it or think about it, I'm probably reaffirming this, you know, original interpretation I had and in a way, getting farther from the events of what actually happened. I literally will have a moment where if like if something happens that it's something I want to tell other people or think about, I'm like, Well, here we go. Once you think about it or tell it, you're kind of solidifying what happened in your mind at that moment. That's just a vague way of going into this this question of this concept of stories is the entirety of our life because with the title being Rise Above the Stories and the book you talk about coming to a new version of your stories. Is everything ultimately always stories?

So are we trying to get rid of stories and get back to an original truth of what happened with things or are we just learning how to pick new stories with everything in life?

Karena Kilcoyne
That is a really great question. And I think that it can be subjective because I think what happens is, well, first of all, let me say this. I'm going to be very bold and say we all have a story or 100, right? I mean, everybody's got a story about some injustice that occurred or some broken hearted thing they went through or some loss or some way that there was an injustice done to them. And I think that what happens is, to your point, and I think we also all do this to a certain extent, is we replay that moment, and we replay the moment, and we replay the moment. And what's interesting is that every time you do that, you are reinforcing your version of that story in your brain every time. It's as if the event's happening all over again and there's reinforcement and the neurons are wiring and firing together, and you are in the thick of it again. And the more you do it, the more embedded that story becomes neurologically.

So do we all have a story? Yes. How do we handle the stories? It depends. It depends on how they affect us, how traumatizing they are. It depends on how sensitive we are, how chemically, how we handle things biologically, because we're all so different, just like our fingerprints, the same way we handle stress or we handle trauma.

I don't think that all stories are bad. I think that if you are blessed to become this way or you're blessed to know people who are this way, there are some people out there that see anything that happens, they can find some silver lining in it or something beautiful that came from it. So I don't think that all stories are bad. What I'm really wanting to do and what I'm really trying to do is I want to help people rise above the stories that are limiting them, the stories that keep them stuck in fear, the stories that keep them living a small life without vulnerability, without true connection. I really want people to understand that they're not alone in their storytelling, for sure, and that there is a way out.

Melanie Avalon
So I guess for me, what I'm hearing, what the goal I would make for myself would be to seek the most, quote, correct factual stories and also the most beneficial stories. So not limiting stories.

I was just thinking how even if we're seeking the truth of what actually happened in any sort of event, you might think, oh, well, seeing it from somebody else's perspective might be more factual, but even they have stories. Like literally what we're telling about life is always a story and I can see your lawyer background and I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but one of the exercises or one of the approaches you take early on with interpreting and acknowledging the story is literally just seeing it through the lens of facts, like the most factual interpretation of it. And I found things like that to be really helpful in my life, especially when you're wrapped up in something that happened, it's like, okay, well, what actually happened here that everybody would agree on if they were going through the facts of it. But before we get into more of the actual, how people can take agency here, so your story, going back to that, I wish we could, well, not really, because I want people to read the book. I was gonna say, we could just hear the whole story now, but listeners will have to get rise above the story to get the full details because it really is riveting. But so what was your childhood like growing up and when did this sense of childhood trauma start? That's a big question, because you put an intense story.

Karena Kilcoyne
I was going to say, I know you said, let's not get into it all. And I'm thinking, yeah, how long do we have? But no, I'll just give you the cliff note version. I grew up in Northeastern Ohio and my parents had a, to say the least, tumultuous and violent relationship. And I was one of four children. I was the oldest. And my parents regularly, regularly were in physical altercations, fighting, hitting, slapping, choking, just all the time, all the time. And my father went to the federal penitentiary when I was 12. He went to the federal penitentiary for male fraud and left me at home with my mother who was very mentally unstable. And at that time I had two younger siblings. My mother had not yet had my youngest brother. And it was a terrible poverty-stricken environment.

My mother was unable to function most days. My, this was like the 80s in Ohio and in our socioeconomic class, it wasn't like going to a therapist was a thing. Mental diagnosis was not a thing. But knowing what I know now about mental health, I would have to surmise that my mother suffered from probably some severe PTSD, probably bipolar. She would use some of the money that my father left us. My father was into only having a cash business. We never had a bank account. He would hide money in the freezer. He would end fishstick boxes. He would hide money in the safe, in the closet, in the bedroom. And when he left, he left us some money that he thought would get us through the few years that he would be gone in prison. And my mother in some of her highest moments would take that money and then go out and buy things we didn't need like designer clothes, designer jeans, decadent birthday cakes when it was nobody's birthday. And before long, we had no money left. And I would be asking strangers for money to buy food, to help pay our electric bill or water bill. There were countless, countless times when we would go without hot water or electricity. And I have to tell you it is, it is not even now, even all of these decades later and even now with financial security and happiness, it still happens to me at least once a week where I will flip a light switch on and feel so full of gratitude that the electricity works. It was a very traumatic, lonely existence. And I was in charge at 12 years old. So I was taking care of my brother and sister. I was taking care of my mother. And this went on this way, even after my mother got pregnant and had my youngest brother and we were 14 years apart. And I basically was his second parent and raised him. And my mother, I went on to put myself through college and law school because I knew that education was my way out, my only way out of where I was. So I was a good student. I would get lost in studying because I needed somewhere else to go beside where I was. So mentally I would check out and that was my safety zone was studying. And I was a good student.

Karena Kilcoyne
I put myself through college and then later law school. When I was in my last year of law school, my mother died of cancer.

And I was taking care of her through the day that she died, which was a very difficult endeavor considering that I was driving and commuting to law school, taking care of my siblings. And more importantly, she and I did not, we had a very fractured relationship from all the trauma that I had endured and my sense of responsibility to take care of her. And when she died, I was only 24 and I ended up adopting my nine-year-old brother. And at that point, I was in severe, severe nervous system dysregulation. I had been in fight or flight for so long and I didn't know really that there was any other way to be. And her dying and leaving me with my nine-year-old brother only pushed me further into that sense of survival. And I carried around all of that trauma and shame and guilt and feelings of unworthiness, unworthy of love, unworthy of safety, unworthy of comfort for quite a while later in my life's journey until it felt safe enough for me to start letting it go.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's so, so much. And now I think listeners can really see they have a glimpse of everything that you talk about in the pages.

Speaking of the education, I don't want to say favorite because it's not like it's, you know, a movie or something for entertainment. But one of the stories that you told that I appreciated, just to touch on it, was your experience of becoming valedictorian and then your school, they didn't give it to you or they didn't acknowledge

Karena Kilcoyne
it. I love that you brought this story up. Do you know how many podcasts I've been on and nobody ever pulls that story out? And I'm like, that is so... I just got goosebumps. Thank you for acknowledging that story.

Oh, no, of course. I really... It was such a profound moment to me. And we need to preface this, me talking about this, by saying that I was in the sixth grade. And people are like, oh, sixth grade. But as I talk about in the book that a lot of the people think that you're so much more resilient as a child to trauma than later, but we found scientifically evidence that that's not true. Actually, the trauma you experience when you're younger impacts you a lot more heavily and deeply than when you're older. But nonetheless, I was in the sixth grade and my father had been wanted by the FBI. There's... I go into it more in the book about being surveilled in the FBI outside the house and blah, blah, blah. But they put my father's photograph on the local news at the six o'clock news. And I was sitting there eating dinner in front of the TV and my dad's picture showed up on the screen. And I screamed, mom, mom, mom, it's dad's on the TV screen. So the FBI had been looking for him and they thought that he was evading the law. So they put his picture out there. This is so silly looking back on this. It was like mail fraud and they have his picture all over the local news. My mom takes me to my private Christian school the next day. And I was slated to be the valedictorian. And when I get into the classroom, the teacher tells me that there's been some changes and that she had a new list of who was going to be the valedictorian and she didn't read my name. And I remember this feeling of probably now a little bit of disassociation. Everything just... My ears were ringing and I felt like I was out of my body and I was like, what is happening? I mean, after seeing my father's picture on the television screen the night before and then hearing this. And it turns out that they didn't want me to be valedictorian because they viewed my father as a felon. And it was so unbelievable to me. And I couldn't process it. I didn't have the ability to process that. And it just reinforced this feeling of unworthiness that I wasn't worthy of even the things that I had worked so hard to achieve. I wasn't worthy of them. And that was so damaging to my personality, to my personal reality, to who I believed I was, to who I believed I could be. And the sense of trust, the sense of trust with the world. There were so many instances, but that was such a powerful one where I no longer believed that if I did all the things that the good thing would come to me. It now was the wild, wild west. Anything was free game. It didn't matter what I did, it would be taken away from me. And it was immensely, immensely powerful and damaging to my psyche without a doubt.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And it's, I mean, that must have been so crazy because not only did you have the trauma of the situation at home, but having that extension go into, you know, your social circle and the greater world at large is just a lot.

Wasn't that only one of the only times your mom really stood up for you though with the, she went to the school.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yes. I still remember it so vividly. My mother was interesting and quirky and really kind of, like we talked about, she had some mental health issues, but she was also, on most days, a pretty free spirit. And she would drive around a lot, not liking to wear shoes, but she'd wear socks. So, she had these pink socks with red hearts. And I remember the day that she came to the school and she went into the principal's office just wearing those blaring socks with the red hearts. And she stood there in front of that man's desk. And I remember so vividly, he had this tie on and he had a tie clip and it had a cross, like a Jesus crucifix on it. And I remember looking at that and thinking, of all the things I've learned here, this is a private Christian school. I remember thinking, forgiveness and love and acceptance and compassion. And I remember standing there looking at him and thinking, this just didn't add up. Again, I didn't have the tools to fully process it, but it all felt very, I don't know, disconcerting to me.

It didn't add up. And my mother and all of the things that she had done, quote, unquote, wrong to me, she did. She stood there and said, with a few F words thrown in there, that I had earned this and that this was mine and that, how dare they take this from me. And she wouldn't let me participate in the graduation ceremony. And I know that in her mind, it was pride. It was, well, you took this from my daughter, so you don't get my daughter. My daughter won't participate in this farce, which I understand. But at the time, my six year old heart was, all these people are my friends. And I didn't really have much of a normal childhood with friends. It wasn't like I wanted to invite people over to my house a lot. So when I would go to school and I would have these moments of Halloween and chapel and all these things where we would be together with these other young people, I felt at least some kind of connection to other people, which I hadn't really had. So on one hand, now as an adult, I look back and I think, I understand where she was going with this, not letting me participate. But it was also just heart wrenching to me because when we walked out of the school that day, I didn't know it. But that was the last time I was going to see those people that I felt, those kids that I felt like were my friends.

So you didn't go back to that school? No, I didn't. And I ended up going to a public school, which was, I mean, so such night and day difference. I had never gone to a public school before. It was big, it was huge, it was a lot different. And funny story about my mother, she did the wrong research and put me into the incorrect public school. And after a week, I was there, they called me into the office after I had a week of transitioning and not liking it.

Karena Kilcoyne
And they call me and they say, you've been going to the wrong school, you need to go to another school. So I had to do the whole experience again, twice, but no, I did not go back.

And the thing about this is, and I think what too like in my journey into wholeness has been is that why that was so impactful and why I love that you asked me about it is that one of the things I think that people with trauma, severe trauma experience is they don't feel connected. They don't feel connected to other people, their hearts closed off because they don't trust. It takes a little, it takes a lot of effort and work and self-awareness to open your heart and to reconnect and to feel like you're part of humanity, that you're not isolated. And so this story that you asked me to tell is a great example of that. Like when that happens to you and you're a child and you feel that disconnected from your peers and from people that, and again, it's something that's just taken from you. It's a really powerful, powerful impact on not only you personally, but on your sense of who you are in the world and how you fit in among other people. I was thinking of

Melanie Avalon
about how trauma can happen from all these different pillars and all these different ways. And it also seems like there's a few key, or I'd be curious to your thoughts on this.

I feel like there's a few key types. So there's like the relationship with the mother and what does that manifest in? And then another huge one is the one we're talking about right now. So whether or not you have social support and how you connect with your peers and the greater world at large. I've read before, I don't know, I feel like I read this forever ago. Might've been in like the body keeps the score or something, but somewhere I was reading about how when something traumatic happens to you, one of the key defining factors into whether or not it becomes post-traumatic stress is the level of support you feel immediately after said event and just how crucial that is. So that feeling of disconnection and isolation, not only is that traumatic in and of itself, it seems like it further exacerbates all your other traumas as well.

Karena Kilcoyne
Absolutely. I would say from my own experience and from the research that I've done and the books that I've read, I definitely feel that there is that sense of, I look back on my own life for example, if I would have had a mother who knew how to comfort me and talk me through something and allow me the space to feel my emotion and express my emotion and give me the guideposts of, of course that's normal, of course that's fine, of course that's how you should feel. The validation of feeling, of being heard and seen and loved in a moment like that makes all the difference.

And I would also say to that that it's also one of the experiences that it continues to roll up on itself, right? So if you don't have that and you don't have that and you continue to experience the traumas or you don't fully regulate after that traumatic experience, you continue to feel the pain of it, which then undoubtedly rolls you into a different experience and gives a lot of people the experience of having PTSD.

Melanie Avalon
And now I'm super curious, so when you became the guardian for, you know, you adopted your younger brother, that's a raising a younger human being type situation because of where you were at in your life with everything. Were you able to give to him the guidance you wish you had or did you not, or did you not really have awareness of what you even needed?

So how did that manifest with you raising your brother?

Karena Kilcoyne
That's a great question. I would say that I'd feel I was really scared going into it because I didn't think that I could be a mother because I had this story that I had never been mothered. And there was part of me that was so, at 24 years old, so exhausted already from taking care of everybody. So there was some resentment that I had that here I was in this place.

But more powerful was this immense knowing that I did not want my brother to ever feel like I felt. And I had this deep sense of compassion and empathy for him because we shared a mother. And I knew what that meant. And I knew in his short life that he had known her what he had experienced. And I also knew and watched him the day that she died. And I watched him hiding under the dining room table as he carried her body out. And the immense terror, I would say terror, he felt. The only person I know that gave me birth is leaving in a body bag. He couldn't process that. So as far as going into our relationship together, I would say that I was working so hard at trying to create structure for him because so much of my life had been unstructured. There was no, here's how we pay bills. Here's what we do. Here's your responsibilities. I just innately knew what my responsibilities were and I never had a childhood. So I tried to give that to him. And so I would do things like create lists of chores. And if you did these chores, you got paid. This money is an allowance. But you didn't get it paid unless you did these chores first. And it was like, well, then when it got time for him to, he was 14 or something, he started asking me about driving and getting his car and how that was going to work. And I said, well, whatever you earn in money, I will match. And don't you know that boy went out and made so much money that we ended up buying him a Ford Explorer. So there were a lot of shining moments, I feel like, in my role as his mother, where I feel like I taught him great work value and ethics and how to be kind and loving and how to do the right thing. But I would also say that there were moments when I just was emotionally unavailable because I was so wrapped up tight in my own sense of trying to protect myself or the subconscious sense of survival that I didn't always fully open up to him in the most, I don't know, I guess, in the way I would now, I would say.

When you're loving somebody and doing things for somebody in a space where you are not yet whole is different than as if you would do it from a place where your heart is completely open and trusting and you feel whole.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'm so fascinated, and I'm sure there's not one answer. I'm really fascinated by when people go through trauma and abuse, why with certain people, the way that manifests later is they continue that cycle and carry that on, that cycle of abuse, or go the opposite way. It's just really, really interesting.

It's something you haven't mentioned yet, is you talk about in the book a few different romantic relationships, which I actually, because this is all very heavy and dark, and at the same time, I was laughing out loud during some of the descriptions, especially when you were talking, was Max the one who likes Star Trek? And for listeners, Karina tells the story about her relationship with Max and like your first dates and everything, and it's really, really funny. So that relationship, at least reading it, I do not get a sense. That relationship felt very empty to me. I wasn't really getting the sense that there was anything really there. I'm sure there was stuff there, but I felt like you were searching for something or needed something, and I'll just let you tell more about the relationship. But what do you think was the purpose of Max? Why did you engage in a relationship with him? What did that do for you? What were you looking for?

Karena Kilcoyne
So to all the listeners out there who, I'm sure a lot of people relate to this, the biggest mirror you have in your life to who you are as a result of trauma is what relationships you choose. Which ones you step into, which ones you want to be in, which ones you don't want to be in, but you choose them anyway.

So in the book I use two relationships that I had as a, you know, hey, this is what happened to me and here's why you need to be cognizant of this, right? Because this is really where your trauma plays out and what your patterns are and it plays out in relationships. So Max was the man that I ended up, my first husband, I ended up marrying him and I tell the story of, you know, us meeting in our first date and going to his house. And to answer your question, what was I looking for? I was looking for probably some sense of security. You know, I met him around this time of, you know, being in college and law school and he had a lovely family. I still to this day, I'm close to his mother, even though Max and I have not been together in well over 20 years, his family is and was remarkable. So I think that was a big highlight to me was that I loved his, especially his mother so much. And what he offered me was, I didn't understand it at the time, but there was part of me that sensed it so subconsciously. He didn't require anything of me emotionally. He was happy just to be with me because he thought I was pretty and smart and I'd ask him questions about, you know, Star Trek next generation and we could talk about time warps and, you know, and so I, you know, I checked some boxes for him. But at that time in his life, he wasn't, he wasn't emotionally present and he wasn't looking in my, in my estimation, he was not emotionally present and he wasn't looking for, for a really deep connection. And what we did have though, was we loved each other and we were friends and we were, it felt like roommates. And I really get into some, like you said, some funny details in the book that really explain how distant, how comfortable we were, both of us were being so emotionally distant from each other. It was like how we, we both found each other and we attracted each other to, we attracted ourselves to each other because what we were putting out is what we were going to get back. We both were looking for somebody who was emotionally vacant or not really requiring a lot of the other person. So we could meander through life and have a decent time and go have a stake it out back and you know, whatever, and have a good time, but there's nothing more to it than that. And what was extremely absent was our physical connection. We never, even at the beginning, started out with any amount of real chemistry or passion. And, and looking back on it, it's so surprising to me that both of us were okay with that. I still still don't, can't quite wrap my head around that, but it was so absent. And then, and then after years of being together and then being in this unhappy marriage. And one thing that struck me so profoundly was I started to go to dinner with him and I would look around the restaurant at the other men in the room.

Karena Kilcoyne
And I would think, Oh my God, is that my soulmate? Is that my person? Am I missing my person? Is my person somewhere? And I thought when I started to have those feelings that I am not in the right place. This is not, this is not what this is supposed to be. Not that I knew from experience what it was supposed to be, but I knew that that couldn't be what it was supposed to be.

Melanie Avalon
One of the lines I have that I thought was so funny, because you talked about how, I don't know, was it your first, one of your first dates when you, he was like, let's take a, let's get in the bathtub or something? Oh, with Max, yeah. Oh, yeah, with Max, yeah. And I have, I have you as a faux Jew with a faux hot tub. Maybe he wanted to be friends who took baths together.

Like, your reflections on everything that, you know, just went down was so funny. But I think that really captured what I was trying to get to, which was a lack of emotional connection there and physical connection. But it sounds like a fun time and I do have a question about it. But yeah, if you'd like to go into, is it Jack?

Karena Kilcoyne
Well, okay. So you bring up a good point. Let me just run back to that. So what I have found in this whole experience of, why am I doing this? Why am I here? Why am I going to this life like this? I have truly learned to find the humor in it because there's no way that it's meant to all be so serious and so dark and so whatever. So when I put this book together, I really did... You said this earlier, like, oh, I felt like you were holding my hand and take me through this. I really wanted people... I wrote it from a... I wrote it in a very conversational tone because I wanted people to feel like that. So I'm glad you got that from it. And I also really wanted to include a lot of... Not a lot, but where it was appropriate and where I felt the humor and where I feel like looking back on 24-year-old me saying something like this, I'm like, oh my gosh, it was so funny that that happened in that moment. And I think if we do that in our lives more often, look for the humor in things. I think it helps alleviate some of this. We don't always have to be in a dark hole.

But to your point about this experience with Max on the first date. So he invites me over and he says, hey, I have a hot tub. Do you want to come over? Bring your bathing suit. And I'm like, hey, sure, that sounds really great. Well, I didn't have a lot of things that I didn't have in, I don't know, Northeastern Ohio. It wasn't like I had a whole drawer full of bathing suits or something. So I pull out this bathing suit I'd had since, I don't know what, high school maybe. And it was not the most attractive thing, but I wore it and I went over there and I get to his house. And immediately, there's no like, oh, hey, do you want a beer? Do you want a water? There's no normal things you would say to somebody that you don't know that when they show up at your house. He immediately just says, oh, let's go upstairs. And I say, oh, your hot tub's upstairs? Thinking it's probably in the backyard or something. He says, um, well, it's not really a hot tub. It's like a big bathtub with jets. What? So we go up the stairs and I have this moment so vivid, like just before I'm at the top of the stairs, like, what am I doing? Like this feels so weird to me. So anyway, he was good looking. And no, no, no, no, no. Successful. He's an entrepreneur. I'm like, okay, fine. Oh, just, I'm sure it's fine. We go, we have our bathing suits on, we get into this bathtub. And it's kind of like heart shaped almost, not like, you know, exactly heart shape, but it has that feel. So I'm on one side, he's on the other side and the jets are roaring and he's got this little TV up in the corner. He turns out, this is like a bachelor pad of bachelor pads. And then he, he's talking to me about all these things about his family life and about how he's Jewish, but he's not really Jewish because his mother did convert, but that was really the only Jewish thing that ever happened to them. And I, and to your point about that line, I remember thinking like, Oh my God, what am I doing? I'm with this guy who's a faux Jew and I'm sitting in a faux hot tub. Like it just, none of it made any sense.

Karena Kilcoyne
But then there was this part of me that it was better than going back home. Because even at that age, I was living with my mother. She'd already been diagnosed with cancer. I was helping to take care of her.

I was having to hear my family. I was going to school. I was like, it was better than going home. He was nice. He wasn't mean. He didn't require anything of me. And you know, it was just, it was what it was. And, and I think at that point in my life, God, the universe source, whatever handed me that like here, here's a moment in time, a blip of time where you can just maybe put your bags down a little bit. You don't have to, you know, nothing extravagant is going to happen here emotionally, but maybe it's just a time to just feel like you don't always have to be on.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that completely makes sense.

Quick little thought on the humor thing. So when you say that about the role of humor in all of this, I always have flashbacks to the memory that comes up for me is being at one of my grandparents' funerals. It probably was my grandmother because I think she was the first, like, big death I experienced and where there was a big family funeral and, you know, all the things and seeing all the cousins and everybody's there. And I remember thinking, like, I remember wanting to laugh at something, probably not related to, you know, the events, but... And thinking, oh, you know, are we allowed to laugh? Like, you know, because, like, when you're in a situation like that, it's like it's not okay to have a, like, a happy emotion. And what I'm really fascinated about there is if you step back from it and be really objective, emotions like love and lightness and humor are all, I think, really beautiful things. And it's really interesting how we think when dark things happen that it's not appropriate to experience that as well. And that's kind of vague what I'm saying, but do you have thoughts about the appropriateness of different emotions and situations?

Karena Kilcoyne
I think I've had to get to a point where I've spent so much time locked up in what's appropriate that I don't give things, I don't categorize things like that. I think it's more important to feel what you're feeling. And I get what you're saying, like, oh, at a funeral, you just don't want to bust out in laughter, right? I guess I understand what you're saying about that.

But I do think that it's beautiful to see humor in something and feel it. And I think it's really important to acknowledge your feelings, and no matter what they are, it's a big part of what I believe and what I teach and what I encourage people to do is feel all those feelings. And I have to tell you this funny story, it just popped into my mind. And so recently, I don't know, sometime in the past week, I saw a video of this woman talking about how she had been blind, I don't know, most of her life, like a really long, long time, and her vision came back. And in the process of her vision coming back, she said, I saw my hair for the first time, and I don't know how long, and my hair was dark. And I realized that my husband had dyed my hair a different color. And she started laughing, like, I was so mad at him. And then I thought, oh my gosh. And then I just started laughing. And I thought, that is hilarious because who in that moment, right? Like you get your vision back, right? And it just shows you like the triumph of the human spirit is in that moment. There is this total human experience of like, oh my God, how dare you dye my hair a different color? Like instead of the beautiful spiritual moment of like, oh my gosh, I got my vision back. But to your point of like, what's appropriate to feel in what moment? I don't know. I think everybody handles every moment differently. And I think that that's completely fine. And I think, you know, giving people the grace to feel what they need to feel or what they're feeling in a moment is really beautiful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree as well and I think that's why I'm so like viscerally affected by that moment because I was just so aware of when you're in situations where because of whatever the situation is you're not supposed to Feel a certain thing. It was just a really interesting mirror for me personally I have a question about relationships, but I think it'll be better discussed after we hear about number two next man Jack Oh Jackie

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah.

Well, the pendulum swung completely the opposite direction as it does.

And I met this person through work and we started this very sexual email correspondence.

And Max and I had been going through couples therapy.

We would meet every Thursday at noon and pay this beautiful sexy therapist, 50 year old therapist, this woman, money to counsel us and talk about our relationship and what was missing and blah, blah, blah.

So Max found these emails and took them to the therapy appointment and was ready to blow my world up or tattle on me or whatever.

And I just told her first, like I'd been having an affair with this email affair with this guy.

I hadn't had sex with him yet.

And she said, well, how does that make you feel?

And I was like, that I'm having these feelings for this man, da, da, da.

And you know, Melanie, it just really came down to it that like I told her this.

I was like, I just really want to be fucked.

I'm sorry.

If you need to bleep it, but that was my words.

And I was like, I just, I've never experienced that.

I want to experience that.

I've never had these feelings.

I want to have these feelings.

And when she asked Max, how does that make you feel?

He basically was flat line.

Like he didn't have a response.

And in that moment I knew I could pay this moment a million dollars and she's not going to counsel passion into my marriage.

So I ran away the other direction with this guy who was so sexy and sexual and just blew my world up.

And it was also turned out to be after, you know, the first few months of it being amazing and extraordinary and earth shattering and all the things turned out to be emotionally devastating.

It was, you know, he was emotionally absent.

So even though there was all this sexuality and all of this passion and all of this bravado going on, he was just as emotionally absent as the last relationship I had been in.

But it was worse because now I was so emotionally entrained to this person and counting on him and believing he was my everything.

And like, I was going to do whatever it would take to keep him.

And it was, it was awful.

It was like we, when we ended up breaking up, it was the thing I literally felt like I was going to die.

Like it was like my entire heart, my insides, everything just ached.

And I didn't know who I was going to be.

And that is what catapulted me into the first real phase, I'd say, of trying to figure out who I was and why I was doing this and why I was choosing people like this.

And what was there more to be for me?

You do.

Melanie Avalon
talked about the concept of it, or we both talked about it, this idea of relationships serving a purpose for something that you likely need at that moment, or being a mirror. I think you said something about being a mirror for yourself. I've had this conversation with people before. Do you think every relationship is always serving a need?

Is filling something that a person needs, or is it possible for a relationship to be purely additive? You are good and whole, and this relationship is just additive. Because I've had this debate with people before.

Karena Kilcoyne
Wow. Okay. That's really, I'm trying to process through that while you're asking me this really deep question. So, my gut feeling was, oh yeah, every relationship is something. But then I would also say this, that I am now married again. And my husband David is, we've known each other for 20 years. We've been married, we've married 15 years this year. I don't need him. And any sense of the word, I thoroughly enjoy being with him. And that was a lot of the work that I did before I met him. And then after we were dating, I still had more work to do about what I was requiring of him emotionally and why I felt why he did certain things that would invoke a sense of abandonment in me when there was no such thing going on. But it was like my own fear of abandonment.

So, I think my answer to that question is, it's both. I think it's that your goal, all of our goals, should be to be so in love with yourself, truly. And I mean that from the bottom of my being. You should be so in love with yourself and so whole on your own that you don't need anything from anyone from the outside. You don't need a car, you don't need a person, you don't need a bag to make you happy. And if you're not there, then there's more work to do. And some of us who even think we are there, like me, there's still work to do. I'm sure like you too, right? You feel like you're there and then something triggers you and there's more work to do. So, my answer about relationships would be work your ass off to get to a point where you feel so whole and so good and so in love with yourself that you don't need another relationship, you don't need that person.

And when you come from that energy, you show up and the people who show up for you, it's an entirely different relationship. It also brings you things then. It doesn't bring you what you need, it brings you inspiration, it brings you greater love, it brings you creativity. I feel like I could better myself in that way or I could learn more like that. There's that old saying, you never want to be the smartest person in the room. I'm like that with my life. I love people. I am in love with myself and I love being with myself. I'm completely happy being alone and I could enamored with people who are also that way. And what magic they bring to me and what happiness they show me in a day when they're like that as well, I think is beyond. So, that's my goal, is to not necessarily need it, but to want whatever else is out there that is the sprinkle on the top, I guess.

Melanie Avalon
I guess I feel like that's the goal, that you feel completely whole and so you don't need another person and yet at the same time, that can bring so much to your life and it's additive and it's a good thing. And then at the same time, because I like to think, oh, well, I don't need anybody. I'm whole.

I don't know if I could actually ever surpass my ego. So even if I think I'm whole, maybe it is still fulfilling some sort of thing that I'm not aware of that I need. That's been the debate I've had with people, yeah, it's like whether or not.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah. And I'm not saying like, oh, I'm not saying like, oh, you need to go be a monk or you need to be single or you shouldn't be in a relationship because you're so in love with yourself. But I agree with you. It's like, it's additive. So, and I think what's most powerful about it is that when you show up in a relationship that way and you have done all this work, I talk about this and like the cautious at the forward of the book, I say first and foremost, you have to be willing to do this work yourself and you can't sit around waiting for somebody to rescue you. You can't wait for like, you know, I don't know, whoever insert your dream person here for that person to show up. I mean, they could show up with all the stardust of the universe and you're still not going to be happy and your son can feel whole and your son can feel loved no matter who they are and how much they love they give you. If you don't know how to, if you don't feel worthy of the love, if you don't love yourself, if you're not worthy, if you feel worthy of the love, if you haven't done the work to let go of those fears and restrictions that you subconsciously put out into the world, if you don't do that, then no relationship's ever going to make you feel better.

So I love what you're saying about is it additive. I think that's a beautiful way to put it because that is what it is. It's like if you come from it, if you come into a hole and feeling pretty good about yourself and you've done all your work and you've worked out your past triggers and like, you're like, okay, all right, you know what they are. Awareness is a huge part of this, which I'm sure we'll get into. But if you do that, I think you're right. I think then these other relationships can absolutely be beautifully additive.

Melanie Avalon
And another quick just layer to it because I've felt pretty strongly about this whole additive concept for a while. And then I was listening to a podcast, I think, and the guest was saying that in relationships, people fear, they tend to exist in a mindset where they fear one of two things and it involves abandonment, but it's either abandonment from the other person or they fear being in the relationship abandonment of themselves.

So that they'll lose, you know, that by being with another person, they'll lose some part of themselves. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, well, that land that tracks with me because I think maybe I, you know, I say this about things being additive, but I think I definitely fear losing a part of myself if I were to be in a relationship with all new.

Karena Kilcoyne
But I think if I could just say this, I think that I would surmise that that is because you have done a beautiful job of creating this world for yourself. And that's really powerful and empowering.

And I believe this, that all you need to do is, you know, law of attraction, like that's what you're putting out there that you want. You will absolutely find somebody who honors the fact that you are so, that you are strong and that you're empowered and that you've created this life for yourself. And I have a girlfriend who's like that. And she has left a marriage that she felt like she was constantly having to care, give, care, give, care, give, care, give. And she was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like I feel like I'm so strong and independent and I just don't, I don't want to do it. And so she emotionally care, give, I should say. There was a lot of not physical, but emotional. And so she left and she and I had that talk a lot because she says, you know, I'm so happy right now. I can't even imagine like bringing somebody into this because, you know, now I'm a little gun shy about, you know, am I going to find anybody who understands that I like this space?

I like who I am. I like that I paddleboard on, you know, this day and I like that I did it on that day. And I'm like, yes, you can. But it's also fine to just be in your own space until you feel, until you feel like, okay, now I'm ready to.

Melanie Avalon
welcome that in. I love this so much.

And I also just to highlight it, I love what you were talking about with the agency with things and nobody coming to save you. And because I think it can sound, it can sound, you know, not understanding or a little bit callous to say, nobody's coming to save you. But I think it's one of the most kind things you can do is having somebody realize that because the role I'm just so like victimhood, I think is such a is so prevalent and such a limiting aspect that people fall into. And there's so much agency when you realize nobody's coming to save you. I just think it's very important.

Karena Kilcoyne
It is. I mean, it is. And that was, I think, the biggest first thing I learned that was so an aha moment, if you will, is a cliché to say that. But it was.

It was like, I kept thinking, oh, these relationships, right? It's going to be, oh, I'll feel the love, and then everything's going to be fine. And that's not how it works. I mean, feeling the love is beautiful. And is it helpful? Yes. And I even say this in the book, like, when I say that you have to do this on your own, it doesn't mean you're all alone and nobody's there to help you. That's not at all what I mean. It is like you, I like the way you put it too, the agency. If you have the agency to say, I'm taking control of this. I'm not going to be a victim anymore. I'm going to take control of this and I don't know how to fix it right now, but I'm going to fix it. I'm going to figure out why I feel like this. I'm going to create an awareness around every time I feel like this. I'm going to figure out how I'm going to make it better. And yes, I have friends who support me. My spouse might support me. I could find a great therapist who supports me. But none of those people are going to hold you to task in the way that you can hold yourself to task because only you know how you feel. Only you know the depth of your suffering. Only you know the depth of your fear. Only you know how strong those bonds of mistrust or hurt are that are holding you back from the world. Only you know that. So it's unfair to ask somebody else to make you feel better. It's really actually unfair. You have to do that work and you have to feel those things and you have to figure out how to get your way out. There's beautiful support systems. I put in the book, there's the formula, there's the journals, there's a wonderful therapist, have a friend you trust. There's all kinds of support systems. But to your point, agency is key and you really have to figure it out yourself in the first place.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just think it's so, so powerful.

That's a good segue to, so when you did have this, when you had this epiphany and realization about the steps you needed to take to get yourself out of this story and situation that you were in, what did you find out? What process, and we talked about it, you referenced it early in the beginning, but what ended up being the, at least from a chronological timeline perspective, the steps that you needed to go through to address your stories.

Karena Kilcoyne
So I would say this, that just, well, on my own personal timeline, just to kind of, until it makes sense to people, I guess, what happened was I had, healing's never one and done. Let me just start out with that. That's a good way to preface this part of our conversation, which I think is going to be really important for listeners is that healing's never a straight line. It's never one and done. It's never like, it's kind of like winding and one step up, two steps back. That's just how it goes. And I had different phases of different moments where I was opened up and I said, oh, I need some help. And I would go to therapy or after the whole Jack incident, I found a therapist and I would go to her and I was having panic attacks. And I would explain this. I didn't know they were panic attacks, but she explained to me they were panic attacks. And I started doing yoga and I got addicted to yoga, like hot yoga, did all these things. And I felt like, oh my gosh, I'm so spiritual. I'm so open. I'm so this and that. And then I would shut it down. Like, oh, I'm good. I'm good, right? I never really unearthed anything. I never really uncovered anything. But I would just go in there and say, yeah, I'm having these, I guess what you're calling, mis-therapist panic attacks, make them stop without me having to tell you all the stuff I live through. And I'm going to go to yoga and then do a bunch of stuff. I'm going to do energy work. I'm going to read some books. I'm going to feel good about myself. And that was it.

And then I went on about my business. And a few years later I had this beautiful, I was married to David and I had this beautiful golden retriever named Finn. And he got cancer when he was only seven years old and he died pretty quickly. And then the time period that we had with him, I really started to kind of like feel this unearthing of some things that I hadn't really thought about. I had suppressed. And when he died, I could not contain my grief. He was my first real sense of unconditional love. And again, I had been married to my husband, David, already. And David and I have a very strong, strong love. But there's something about unconditional love with an animal that no judgment, that no this and no that, that I felt very safe with Finn. And when he died, oh my God, I'm sure all the animal lovers out there will understand this, but it was so amplified for me because when he died, I just couldn't stop grieving. I just started crying and I couldn't stop crying. I had never experienced like that many tears, that much crying. And it was a lot of sadness and it was unearthing, a lot of things I had never cried about, about my mom dying, about all these things. And that was when I really, really got into healing.

And I started to do all these different things and different modalities and all the things. And so to more directly answer your question, thank you for allowing me this space to kind of explain that, because I needed to kind of lean up to it to explain why I felt like it really was three pillars, like three shifts of consciousness for me where I understood that I was entering a new phase of wholeness,

Karena Kilcoyne
of healing. And that was the first one was, and these are the three steps I talk about in the book, and it's acknowledging the story or your stories, acknowledging them. And what is that? That's awareness. That's consciousness. That's becoming aware every time you tell yourself a story. And so many people, so sad, and I used to be this way too, you go through life unconscious. You let your subconscious brain dictate your life. You let that story play well. I mean, I shouldn't do that. I'm not good at that. I have terrible balance. I'm not good. I'm not athletic. I mean, think about the stories that you hear just people say things about themselves. And you're thinking, when you become aware, you think, is that really true? Or is that because you fell one time and now you think you have no balance? We all have these stories, so it's this acknowledging, creating awareness.

And the second pillar and the second big moment I had was this idea of releasing those stories that I had created and tangling myself from them. And that took me quite a while. And I really wanted to understand how did I get tangled up in these in the first place? They were so entrenched in my mind. I just couldn't get over it. How is this so just rote? It's just come out of me like, yeah, that's who I am. And that's where I believe in it. And I started to think, is that true? And how did I get here? And I really believe that you can't get to where you want to go until you know where you've been.

And then the third big moment for me and the way I describe it in the book is finally rising above the story. And that is this moment where you finally find that deep love that we've been talking about, right? That unconditional love for yourself, compassion for yourself. Like, you're in love with yourself. There's nothing, I mean, sure, there's ways like, oh, I want to go to this retreat or I want to learn this. But sure, but it's because you're curious and because you want to be more enlightened and you want to be brighter and bigger of heart and spirit. But it's not because you're coming from any sense of unworthiness. You finally get to this point where Stevie Nicks says it so beautifully in one of her songs. She says, when the rain washes, you clean, you'll know. And you get to the point where you feel that. You feel like I'm so not those stories. And so who am I? And how do I feel about myself? And you get to this point of real self-love. And that's what I define as finally rising above your story because it's that deep sense of knowing who you are, who you really are, who your soul is, and how much you love yourself. That is what carries you through the rest of your life when you're going to be triggered and maybe creating some new stories. So you really need to have a strong foundation. So the three steps are the acknowledging, which is the awareness, the releasing and untangling yourself from the story. And then finally rising above the story.

Melanie Avalon
some questions about it. One, so the first step becoming aware, that is obviously a very big, important, catalyzing step that leads to, you know, the entire process of healing. And so it seems like people, it can take them all different amounts of time to even get to this first step of awareness.

That first step of awareness, how much of it comes from you individually, so you having an internal awareness about things, like an epiphany, an insight, an awareness, and then things can, you know, move up, like go from there, hopefully snowball, but go upward from there versus the potential of, like, can somebody else give you awareness? Like, mind's eye so that you now have this awareness insight. What I'm, the question I'm trying to get to is, does it always, even if somebody else points it out, does it still require that moment of understanding of awareness from you? And if so, what leads to that? It feels like the one step, because like, once you get that step, it's like, okay, I can follow the steps from here. I can do this, I can do that. But like that first step, it's like, how do you, how does that happen in somebody?

Karena Kilcoyne
That is, hmm, that's a really important question because, so you said this and then it, I had kind of a little giggle in my brain because you said, oh, can somebody tell you this? Can you think about a time in your life? No, I mean, you're so right, right? Because think about this, how many times in your life, I could think about countless times in my life when somebody has pointed out something to me that I'm doing and they were factually correct. But the first thing I did in response was bristle up and tell them to F off, like, how dare you?

Like, and I think it depends, why this is such a poignant question is because I think it depends where you are, where you are emotionally when this happens. So if somebody is telling you this and you're in a relationship that's already very fiery and very like, oh, sometimes in these relationships also we look for conflict, right? Because we're comfortable with it. So somebody might point it out to you like, oh, you know, you're, you know, you shut yourself off. Well, yeah, factually, that's true. I was the queen of shutting myself off for a day. And I would say, oh, so what are you trying to say? I'm cold, I'm heartless. What are you trying to say? You know, so I, and people can become very defensive. So I think that truly it has to come from you. I think that there are situations of course, where people might say it and you might walk away from a situation less defensive and say, oh my gosh, there's validity to that. I would also say that, well, and it's your question, where does it come from? For a lot of people it comes as a result of something terrible, right? Like I was saying like, oh, my dog died. My beautiful soul dog died. And I felt so abandoned and alone and like how am I ever bereft? Like how am I ever going to get over this? And in that moment, it was this awareness of, I don't want to feel like this. He wouldn't want me to feel like this. He wouldn't want me to go through the rest of my life, all entangled in this fear and sorrow. He wouldn't want me to do that. I don't want to do that. So I think that there's the opportunity that occurs when the bad things happen, you lose somebody, there's a bad diagnosis, something terrible happens that you think, I don't want to be this person anymore.

I can't be this person anymore. And I think that that can create awareness. And I think sometimes those are the most poignant moments of awareness because you feel like all the chips are down and this is it and what's it gonna be? And so I think awareness, if it's going to result in this journey inward to figure out what's really going on in there, it is gonna require your own sense of, I want to do this and this sense of, I'm courageous and open enough to create this awareness around it. And so in my opinion, I feel that it's, you get the most bang for your buck when the awareness comes from you.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm so intrigued by it because it just feels, it's so, so important to the entire journey and it feels like the one thing, I just don't, I feel like I can't give awareness to anybody.

Like I don't know, I wouldn't even know how to start. Like a reason I like having this show is because I can, you know, interview so many incredible people and put out helpful tools and information and knowledge that people, if they've had the awareness and want to make the change, then they can come and listen. But I'm not actually, I'm not walking up to people and like giving them awareness and I, nor would I want to. I'm just really intrigued by how important it is and it just feels like the one thing that most of the time feels like it needs to come from the person within. Like, cause like you were saying, even if somebody comes up and says something to you, people often, if they're not ready to see it, they're just gonna feel defensive or triggered or, you know, bristle up like you said. So, and it's just like, where does that come from? But I agree with, like you said, that it often does come from, you know, a life moment that is so intense and reflective that it makes you just rethink everything.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah, without a doubt. And I agree with you.

I mean, the whole idea that coming from within is undoubtedly the most powerful way because... And I liked what you said about if you're not ready. If you're ready... I mean, it's really like it's hard work, so are we ever really ready? But yes, actually, there are moments when you feel like, I am so tired of this. I don't want to feel like this that I therefore am ready. I'm ready to do what it takes. And if you're not ready, then you're not ready. And what's that old saying? When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

And I think you and I are in the same mindset that when you are ready, what you need to know and what you need to explore will show

Melanie Avalon
up for you. And also, if we're talking about cliche sayings, like the one about, you know, the devil you make better, the devil, you know, than the devil you don't, that would actually really explain why it might require something really, really intense to have this epiphany for some people because there's, even if we're not, we don't like where our life is or if we don't like the stories we're telling ourselves, the safety of the familiar is, I mean, it goes a long way.

We know that our bodies find safety and you even call the stories like our security blankets and how it can be hard to let go of our stories because they become security blankets. So I feel like a way out of that is that what you're in, for whatever reason, becomes so intolerable that now the fear of the unknown is actually a more approachable idea than what you're existing in right now. And sometimes it might just require something really, really hard for that switch to happen.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah, undoubtedly, and you're so right about that. The idea that there's something else out there that's different, most people aren't aware of it. And if they're not aware of it, then it doesn't seem feasible for them, right? It's like, oh, well, I don't even know what that is.

So I do write about these stories being our security blankets because there's so many of us that fall, I used to do this. It became this, for me personally, this whole idea of I was a felon's daughter, right? Like for so long, that was my story. Even though I was the successful criminal defense attorney, it was like, it didn't matter. I was still in my heart all I felt like I was a felon's daughter. And it was like this thing I carried around with me, like my victim card, like here it is, you know? And so many of us get caught up in that. We create the story and then it becomes the familiar and then it becomes our security blanket and then it becomes a reason why we can't do things.

I used the example earlier of, oh, well, you know, I'm not athletic. I can't do that, right? And I'm thinking, I hear people say things like this. I'm thinking, why are you, where is this coming from? Right? And we might've had a moment in the eighth grade where, you know, we trip during a track meet or something and it's like somebody said, oh, you're clumsy or you're not athletic. You shouldn't be doing this. And we carry that around with us for like decades. And it's like, it's not the truth and it was a one off and, but it's amazing how the brain will create those security blankets to keep us safe.

That's what our stories do. They keep us safe from doing new things or trying new things because the truth of the matter is the brain is wired for survival first and foremost, not love, not connection, survival. And two, the brain wants to run as efficient as possible. So if efficiency means, oh, let me run the same stories that I ran yesterday, actually it's been proven that it's like something like, it's really high. I want to say 80%, 85% of our, of our thoughts are the same as they were the day before. So can you imagine if your stories about yourself are so negative? And you repeat 80, then I say, I forget the number, but it's high. It's like 80, 90% of the same thoughts the next day and the day after, the day after, the day after you are living in storyville. You are living in your brain's limited perception of reality. You're living in your brain's construct of how it's going to keep its life, your life simple and running efficiently. And it doesn't need to think about anything new. You're not going to try anything new. You're not going to expand your brain. It's not to work too hard. It is a vicious, vicious cycle. And that's why the awareness is so important and why in the beginning, creating awareness around the stories you tell yourself is going to feel like you're towing a car with your teeth.

Karena Kilcoyne
It's going to be like, oh my God, I can't believe how many of these thoughts come into my brain, but I am here and I promise you this, the better you get at it, the more aware you become and the more you hear those things, those stories and you stop them and you reverse them and you call them out, the better you're going to get at it and the less your brain's going to do it.

Melanie Avalon
provide, you know, a lot of exercises and ways that people can do this and the book. What's just one example of, so if somebody wants to have more awareness of these stories that they're telling themselves. And yeah, I was actually reading that this week about, or last week, about the amount of our thoughts that are the same. And it's some shocking number like that, which is just crazy.

So what's like a very just practical thing somebody can do to become more aware of their stories?

Karena Kilcoyne
Well, there's a couple. I love the idea. I talk a lot about this in the book about how mean we are to ourselves. And you say things, you look in the mirror like, oh, this is wrong and that's wrong and blah, blah, blah. So one of the things I say is, I want you to think about that mean thing. Well, let me just preface it by saying this that when I go out and I speak about this book and I speak about this idea of changing your thought patterns and changing your inner dialogue, I start out and I always say, raise your hand if you said something mean about yourself today. And I am not kidding you, 95% to 99% of the room raises their hand. And then it starts into this a little bit of laughter and a little bit of talking because people are shocked to see how many hands go up. So I think it's an easy in road because we all are very hard on ourselves.

And so what I do when I go out in public like this and I talk about it is I say, now that mean thing that you thought about yourself, I want you to turn to the person to your right and say it to them. And they're like, what? I would never say to the person next to me that they're overweight or they're ugly or they're stupid or they're like, nobody would ever do that. So it's this idea of that's how you create awareness on how the depth and breadth of what you're saying about yourself and this mean landscape that you're creating internally for yourself is unwarranted and unjustified. So much so that you would never say those things to somebody sitting next to you. And I think too in this way of like just on the very beginning, like just the foray into this is, would you ever say to somebody else, say the opposite, say the opposite to yourself, try that out. How does that feel? And we go a lot into the book about compassion, finding compassion for ourselves because boy, oh boy, it's like we are trained to do that for other people, right? Like you grew up and if you grew up with any sense of whatever, you're taught to feel, you know, feel for somebody, be kind to them. Like don't say mean things, but it's interesting that we're not really taught to do that for ourselves. Most of us come out of childhood and we're in early adulthood and we still don't know how to really love ourselves. We're harder on ourselves than we are on anybody else.

So it's this idea of creating these compassionate moments where you see yourself as other people might see you and give yourself some grace and some compassion. And in doing so, you're creating awareness around that, wow, I've not really been so nice to myself in the last hour. How might I change that? How might I figure out what's something beautiful I've done and something loving I've done and how do I figure that out? So there's the creating the awareness just of your inner dialogue. Like what's happening in that space? There's that level of awareness. And then there's the level of awareness that we start to create around those deeper stories.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And it's interesting because not only are we not taught to talk to ourselves a certain way compared to others as far as like showing love and kindness and not using this negative self-talk, but it's almost applauded a little bit.

Like I think we're in society, you know, it's like if you're, you know, if you're hard on yourself, then you're going to be successful. And, you know, if you're critical, then you're going to, you know, go far in life. So the cards are kind of stacked against us, I think.

Karena Kilcoyne
You know, I agree. And since you brought that up, I just want to interject this right here, if I may, because I am all about self-improvement and all of those things. But I get a little bit tired of, and it might also be now because I'm 52 years old, but I'm tired of being mean to myself. I'm tired of feeling like I look at Instagram and social media and I'm like, I have to be up at five and I have to cold plunge and I have to dot, dot, dot, dot, and list the 12 things. And I'm like, you know what? I get it. If some of those things work for you, they work for you. But the kind of work I'm talking about doing for yourself is truly next level. You get to this point where you understand where you came from and you look at that with complete unabashed effing gratitude and love, and you are so in love with yourself, you will get up and go, damn, I am good. I'm really good and I want to take care of my body. It's a temple and I'm going to do a few things, but I'm not going to do things anymore that make me feel like crap.

I'm not going to push myself to the extreme where I have to feel like I'm not good enough because I can't sit in the cold plunge for seven minutes. There's this undercurrent culture where like, I don't know. It's like people start to feel like I got to do all these things and I have to be all these things and da, da, da. This work that you and I are talking about today is the most important work you could ever do in your lifetime. Without a doubt, you can only cold plunge and infrared sauna and all the things I talk about in the book, do I have a whole chapter on these, right? You can only do those so much and they're not going to get you to the point that we're talking about right now of unconditional self-love unless you uncover what this is, what your stories are, and how to really get to deep unconditional self-love. That should be everyone's focus. If I could say that, if you wanted to find one way to improve your life and live a happier life, it is getting to the bottom of how to love yourself more.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this really, really resonates with me because I definitely experience that seeming pressure of needing to do all the things and be all the things. I think my fear surrounding it personally, because I know I've talked about this with my therapist as well, is I've feared that if I just existed in a state of self-love, and I don't agree with this now, but I think this is the fear underneath it for me, which is if I just existed in this state of self-love and pure acceptance, then I would somehow revert to being lazy or I would lose my drive to fulfill and do all of these things.

And so I know cognitively that those do not equate to each other, those two concepts. And at the same time, it's what I think I personally struggle with. So I'm really intrigued by the topic for sure.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah, I get that. I totally understand that. And I will tell you that I have been in that space too. I've always been an overachiever and I've always been somebody who's like wanted more and thought, oh, I'm going to succeed my way out of this whole of unworthiness. And I'm not at all saying that's where you're coming from, but that's where I was coming from. And so I thought that if I would do that, that I would feel this sense of wholeness. And oh, if I just achieved this or if I could do this and I could show people that I accomplished this. And I will tell you that you get to a point where it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. It's like, not that you're lazy. It's not that I feel at this phase in my life like I'm lazy. What I feel is relaxed. I have this deep knowing that this is everything that I created about all those stories was a mirage. I know that now. I know that now from the deepest part of me. I have found a way to bring in all those versions of me that I thought were so unworthy and I was so ashamed of. And I look at 16 year old me and 12 year old me and 21 year old me and me in my bathing suit, sitting in a faux hot tub. And I giggle at her and I love her. And I think, God, she was so cute. And look at her. She's just trying to make the most of it and process this. I don't see one part of myself anymore without pure adoration. I really don't. And you just get to a point I have and what I want for people and why I wrote this book and why I wanted to create it as a roadmap because it is so doable.

It is so attainable and it is so available for people. And it is out there. And it's like, if you could find a way to do this work and dig and dip into this where it feels like you're on your way, you may still want to do all those other things. Sure. Because you get to a point where you're like, you love yourself so much that, hey, cold plunge makes you feel great. And I, listen, I'm not, I'm not, I'm just using cold plunge. I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to be told that like, oh, Karina is bashing cold plunge. It's a thing that popped into my head. But you know, there's 20 things we can name there. But you just get to a point where you don't care what people think. You care what you think. And you care about how you think. And you care about what you're thinking. And you want that to be so pure and so loving and so compassionate that you don't want to do anything that feels mean, or I don't really want to do that. Like you just know the difference at that point. You're not like, oh, I'm being lazy. No, I just, I want to do this because I enjoy it. I want to sit here and read this book because I enjoy it. And there's just a difference when you make a shift like that. And I think for people out there that are so, and I know this from experience, type A, and they're listening to this like, I don't have time for this. I got to accomplish these 25 things by the next eight minutes.

Karena Kilcoyne
That kind of drive is truly exhausting. I defined it in the book for me where I felt like I was driving myself with fear and perfectionism instead of love and compassion. And when I made the shift, that's when I stopped caring about what other people think or how people view me. I just stopped caring and it's amazing.

It's like truly like me talking about flipping the light switch earlier. That's what it feels like.

Melanie Avalon
like words are so powerful. So I think this is where some, at least for me, some of the confusion or crossing of wires comes in because like the phrase stop caring, for example, on the one hand that can mean apathy, which is where I think the confusion comes from me.

But on the other hand, it's just letting go of those things that are not, you don't need to be investing, taxing time and energy and that's actually just taking away from you. So interestingly, that actually gives you more time energy, which is like the complete opposite of apathy.

Karena Kilcoyne
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's really smart.

I like the way you put that because you're right, it can sound like that, but that's not how I experience it in my body. And my body, what it's allowed me to do when I have found this deep, deep love for myself is I actually feel more connected to people. And when I say, I stop caring, people think I meant more like the judging. Right? Maybe they weren't even doing it. Nine times out of 10, they're not thinking about me. They're not even judging me, but I had this thing in my head that they were judging me. So you're absolutely right. It's more that my brain stops perceiving judgment and I let that go. And what it enables me to do is I don't fear people and I don't fear their judgment. I feel more connected to people because I have given myself so much grace and forgiveness that I feel like I innately do that for other people. I see in people that, oh, that could be a hurtful situation. I can understand why they were 20 minutes late. Oh my gosh. I afford people a lot of grace because I have been there and I get it and people get in a hurried position and all these things. So I feel like when you get to that point, at least from my experience, you let go of that perception of judgment and it makes you feel even more connected to people.

Melanie Avalon
And speaking of letting go, a huge part of this journey is the role of forgiveness. So forgiving other people and yourself. What did you discover there? Because I feel like, at least for me, forgiveness, I think is so important.

And it seems to be something, it's so intangible to me to grasp. I actually had Gabour Mate on the show and this was one of the topics we talked about because it just seems like the thing, it's like, how do you actually do that? Because it feels like a feeling, like forgiveness. And it's like, how do you practically do that? So what did you find with forgiveness of both others and yourself?

Karena Kilcoyne
Well, first of all, I'm sorry. I just had to say this to you. Amazing. And I'm so, for whatever it's worth, I'm so proud of you. And I'm so happy for you that you got to interview Gabor Mate. And I'm so happy for him that he got to experience your beautiful podcast. That is a powerful coupling up of information and being a conduit of awareness for people. So that's beautiful. And congratulations on that to both of you, actually. Because what you're doing for the world and the three podcasts you have is incredibly powerful.

So thank you for that. Forgiveness. Forgiveness is probably one of the hardest things of my entire experience. I will just, like I do in the book, if I could just share just briefly what that was like for me. Specifically with my mother, it was really hard to find forgiveness for her. I mean, even on her death bed, I gave her what I like to call a well-measured walk to death. I gave her morphine and cleaned her mouth sores and did all the things a dutiful daughter should do. But I didn't do them from a real place of... I did them from a place of almost disassociation. I couldn't believe what was happening. And I was in no place to find forgiveness or have the deathbed talks that most people long for and want. I never had that experience. So I did do a lot of it in the aftermath and I wasn't ready for it then either. But I will tell you that it came in waves and it came in phases. And I had a beautiful moment after Finn died, a couple months after he died. And I would do these meditations. I found really a lot of power in doing breathwork and meditations on my own. And I would have these quote unquote visions. And I would have these feelings of being in the presence of my mother. And I would feel things and it was really powerful. And I will tell you that just last week, I had another... I still practice this. I still love this breathwork and meditation. And last week I had this overwhelming, overwhelming vision, feeling. I didn't see her. I felt her, my mother. And she showed up and I felt... She didn't really say anything, but I felt it. I felt her love for me. And I came out of that and I had been crying so hard. My hairline was wet. And I had this next level forgiveness again for her. And it was this deep sense of she wanted me to know that she loved me and that she did the best she could. And I think most powerfully though for me is that I caught on years ago that I wasn't going to let her or anybody take that for me. I wasn't going to let somebody take part of my heart. I wasn't going to let them take part in my thought process. I didn't want that anymore. So while they say it's never about the other person, it's about you. That's an easy way of saying some really hard stuff. And how do you do that? It's different for everybody. And it's for me, it was in the beginning, I'm not going to lie. It came from a place of, I'm not going to give her that.

Karena Kilcoyne
I gave her enough. And is that real forgiveness? Probably not.

And then it took me another, she knows so long and so long and so long up until literally like last week, I had another phase of this deep sense of like, I came out of that meditation and I felt like, oh my God, my mother loved me. And I think it's important to say that in this podcast because I started this podcast by saying all the horrible things my mother did and who she was. And I know you were gracious enough to ask me about her going into the principal's office. So thank you for that. Because actually, and I want to say this, there were beautiful things that my mother did. And my mother was a very wounded, psychologically hurting person. And I can't tell you exactly what she had because we didn't know, but I look back on her now and I know that in her own way, she loved me.

And I've gotten to a point where I've learned to let it go. I've learned to let her go. And I know that forgiveness is hard. It's really, really hard, but it really is about loving yourself more than holding on to that pain because it's not worth it.

It's really not worth it. And we didn't even have a chance to get into a lot of the things that Gabor Maté talks about in his beautiful books, which I cite a lot in my book. I summarized a lot of his beautiful teachings in there and I cite them. There's 72 end notes in my books. If anybody reads it and wants to know more, there's always go to the back and look up these beautiful books. But he talks a lot about, and I talk about it in my book about what these repressed emotions do to you physically. emotionally and what they cause, and this isn't woo-woo stuff. I mean, you know, do you think that that's woo-woo? No, it's like, it's, you know, it's been out there for quite a while now, like they did the ACE study, the Kaiser Permanente ACE study about adverse childhood experiences, and, you know, what kind of trauma you experience and what it leads to later in life. You know, heart attack, high blood pressure, cancer.

So does it cause it per se? No, but it causes inflammation in your body, and we all know inflammation causes disease, disease and then later disease. So there's a lot to it of why forgiveness is so important, and I think that it's definitely worth the work and getting it out of you to getting that energy out of you and offering that up as a roadmap to escape some of that old sludge. I call it emotional sludge in the book, and that's really what it is.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing that. And that's incredible that you had that experience about your mother. And yeah, I think with forgiveness, what I found so powerful is the realization that it's not about the other person. Like, going back to the agency topic, it's all a person's own work to forgive and let go. And it doesn't require anything from the other person.

And thank you for the kind words about Gabor Mate. That was, yeah, it's one of my most cherished memories. I mean, it was incredible having that conversation. And actually, it leads to a nice, maybe a nice way to tie a lot of this up, which is, because he is all about trauma. When I interviewed him, I was saying, well, I don't really, I was telling him that I don't really, I feel like I have a rosy childhood. Like, I don't recall specific in memories of intense trauma. So of course he was like, do you mind if we do like a session right now? And I was like, sure. And then he was asking me questions about my childhood and finding places where I apparently do have trauma, which is a nice segue to a nice potential ending question or a ending question, which is, because you've shared your story. And again, listeners, get Rise Above the Story. You will love it. It'll be so empowering. And there's so many tools in there and things that you can implement right now with the agency that we're talking about to actually make change. So this idea of trauma though, you know, there's big T, there's little T. Basically, is this work for everybody? Does it matter if people feel like they have big T trauma or little T trauma? What is the role of who this is for and how big, quote, big a trauma is?

Karena Kilcoyne
So I want to say this that I remember my publisher saying to me that we're trying to determine like, oh, the marketing and this and this and this. And they're like, don't ever say this book's for everybody because no book is for everybody. And I'm going to say, this book is for everybody because it is. And I always say that like, there is something in this book for everybody.

And I have gotten such beautiful, beautiful feedback from people about this book and what this book has opened up for them and what this book has offered them. And I'm so incredibly grateful to have been this messenger in this time because I made this a unique journey by including, I weave in my stories throughout the whole book, but I do that as a way to offer myself up as a, hey, if I could do this, you could do this and we're all in this together. And to your point about who is this book for and how important is the trauma or how big is the trauma, I say it's for everybody because we all have some kind of trauma. And I know we think about it, like I've had this experience where I remember this young woman that I know was going through a hard time and her mother said, I don't get this. She hasn't never had any trauma. She's never been raped. She never got, never been on her death bed. Like, what is this about? And it's like, there is like this, and I don't know if it's generational and it could be, I don't know if it's just personal of what people don't have a, they have such a negative opinion about trauma and traumatic experiences. But I would say this, that there is big T trauma, war, death, all these things. And there's little T trauma, a divorce. You lost your job. And I think I might have touched on this earlier. So if I did forgive me, but there's also like this, everybody's physiological differences and there are, how sensitive are they? What happened in the womb? Like how stressed out was their mother? How good was their caregivers early on? Were they sued? Were they comforted in the early months of their life? Like there's so many things that can make us more sensitive to how we react to a stressful situation that makes it feel very traumatic to us. So I don't think that it's fair to judge. I never judge somebody. And I would ask everybody to give, give everybody a little grace about how they interpret something and how something is, whether it's traumatic or not.

And I also want to say that I believe in this so much because of what it's done for me, this work and what it's done for me. And again, like I said, the people who have written me or the reviews or people who have come up to me when they see me out somewhere and they say, I'm going to tell you my story. What happened to me after I read your book? It broke me wide open, blah, blah, blah. Like I believe in it so much. And I would also, I'm also really wanting to point out that you can also do this. If you go to my website, riseabovethestory.com, there's an acknowledgement guide on there.

Karena Kilcoyne
It's kind of like the intro and little intro to just, you know, maybe figuring it out. Like what, if I were going to acknowledge it, what are these stories? And it's a really powerful yet sweet way to kind of get your, put your toe in the water.

And I have some other things on there about the book and where you can buy the book, it's available anywhere books are sold. But I really know in my heart and in my soul that if you do this work, you will come out the other side happier, lighter, more in love with yourself. And who doesn't want that?

Melanie Avalon
that. Thank you so much for what you're doing. It is so incredibly empowering.

And for listeners, we'll put links to everything in the show notes. Definitely get Rise Above the Story. Yeah, I love that. I love that it's for everyone. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is surrounding everything. So what is something that you're grateful for? I am

Karena Kilcoyne
so grateful for this entire experience. Every single thing I have lived through, I would never be who I am today. I would never know the depths of love and self-respect and grace if I hadn't gone through what I'd gone through. I am so incredibly grateful to myself because I figured it out and I did the work.

I can tell you, I can break down in tears, just thinking, tears of joy, just thinking about the journey I've been on and how far I've come and I am so incredibly proud of myself and enamored with myself and how hard I've worked and I would never ever have been this person or had the opportunity to feel what I feel had I not gone through what I'd gone through. So I want everybody out there who thinks that they have lived through such horrible things that they could never get beyond it. I promise you, you can, you absolutely can. Everything you need to do it is already inside of you. All I do in the book is guide you down the road.

Melanie Avalon
Incredible. So amazing. Karina, thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you for everything that you have experienced in your life and what it has led for to you and then, you know, how you've turned it into something which is just so incredible and helping so many other people. I'm just so grateful for you and your time today. This conversation was incredible. How can people get the book, follow your work, all the things.

Karena Kilcoyne
The book is sold anywhere books are sold. Amazon's a great place, but it's sold anywhere books are sold.

My website is riseabovethestory.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook at Karina Kilcoin. Melanie, you are truly just a beautiful light in the world. Thank you for everything you're doing and offering up this information to people. It's so needed and you're a gift, so thank you and thank you for having me.

Melanie Avalon
Well, thank you so much. I look forward to everything in the future and hopefully we can connect again. This was absolutely amazing. Thank you.

You're welcome. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, When, as well as my supplement line Avalon X. Please visit Melanie Avalon.com to learn more about today's guest and always feel free to contact me at contact at Melanie Avalon.com and always remember, you got this.