The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #331 - Topaz Adizes

TRANSCRIPT

Topaz Adizes
What's the thing I can learn today that's gonna make me better? What's the special gift that today's offering me that I may not realize? We are asking ourselves questions all the time, whether it's in our business, whether it's in our relationships, whether it's with our conversations with ourselves. And we are always looking for answers because that's what we are taught to do. That's what we practice doing. We're searching for answers all the time.

But all the power is in the question. The world is full of contradictions that we have to hold at the same time, frankly. And part of that is in asking questions and sitting in the space before you receive the answer. And knowing that maybe you get two different competing answers that maybe both are valid.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Friends, I absolutely loved today's episode with Topaz Adidas. We are going to talk all about how focusing on questions can potentially change your life for the better, of course. Oftentimes we just think about answers, but what about the questions? You're going to learn how to actually create questions so that you can better find answers in life, experience the things you want to experience, and increase intimacy with those special to you. I cannot recommend his book, 12 Questions for Love Enough, and you'll get a taste of it in today's episode. We also talk about things like the role of creating safe spaces for conversations and how to do that, how to better make decisions, power dynamics when it comes to conversations, the role of mutual projects, and so much more.

The show notes for today's episode will be at melanieavalon.com slash questions. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life, comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love, and then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post, and again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right, I think that's all the things. Without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation ripe with many questions with Topaz Adidas. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast friends. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. I have been literally looking forward to this ever since I saw the pitch about this and then started reading the book. I am here with Topaz Adidas. Wait, no, no, no, no, no, three cheeses Adidas. Did I say it right?

Topaz Adizes
Perfect, adhesus. That's perfect. You call me Three Cheeses, we could go down here with Three Cheeses, I guess.

Melanie Avalon
Three cheeses. I know. I was going to say Topaz three cheeses, Adidas. Okay.

I am here today with him. He is an Emmy award-winning director, writer, and experience design architect. And oh my goodness friends, his work is beyond incredible. So his book is 12 Questions for Love, A Guide to Intimate Conversations and Deeper Relationships. And this book is not the only thing that Topaz does. In the book, he talks all about his project that he has done with his documentaries where he actually went around and recorded, I'm going to of course ask you questions about this Topaz, recorded conversations with dozens, hundreds, at least hundreds of hours of couples, having these conversations with these 12 questions and seeing this moment that's created between them, which he calls the and, and how these conversations and these questions could create intimacy, how it affects relationships, evolves relationships, what it means, how we communicate. It is beyond fascinating.

He also has a card deck game that utilizes these questions as well. And I'm just really blown away by the entire work. And I'm really kind of self-reflective here because I think this is the first time I have met an individual who is as obsessed with questions as I am. Because with podcasting, it literally is questions. Like questions are my favorite thing, I think, in the world.

And when Topaz opens the book, he talks a lot about the dichotomy and the meaning between questions and answers. And I just have so many, so many questions, so many thoughts. Topaz, thank you so much for being here. And also, I want to mention a little bit more about your bio because your work has been in Cannes, Sundance, IDFA, South by Southwest, you've been in The New Yorker, Vanity Fair, New York Times, and wait for this, friends. He studied philosophy at UC Berkeley and Oxford. And you speak four languages. I'm just blown away.

And you have a design studio called The Skin Deep. So it's funny, you were asking me at the beginning why I continue three podcasts. Is it not exhausting? My question for you is, are you not exhausted doing all of this?

Topaz Adizes
Well, I'm old, you know, I have had a lot of time to do different things at different times, one at a time, one at a time.

Melanie Avalon
Is that the key, one, like focus on one thing at a time?

Topaz Adizes
I don't know, people say that I've done a lot that I'm busy, but for me, it's I don't feel that because I'm, I get so much joy and pleasure from the things that I work on. And I get a lot of I'm very passionate about the things. So for me, it's just an opportunity to build things and to do things and to create experiences. And I love it.

And that gives me energy. So for me, it's, it's a great roller coaster ride.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's kind of similar to what I was saying. When you're doing, you know, what you love, it just, at least for me, it comes pretty naturally.

And I often think if the whole world, if everybody in the world could just do what they loved as their job or vocation, I just think this world would be a different place. It would be amazing.

Topaz Adizes
Totally. But not everyone knows what they love, right? They haven't had that, you know. And I wonder about that.

I wonder, does everyone know what they love and some people do it and some people don't? Or is it that sometimes it takes time to find what you love? And what is that about? Or is it just some people don't have necessarily a passion? What is that about? I think that we all do have a passion. We just don't ask the right questions, putting us in a position to then finding it.

Melanie Avalon
I've actually am obsessed with this concept as well because I have always felt from at least as far as I can remember from day one, passion driven, like I knew what I wanted to do and I was going to do it. And I actually was a little bit envious of people who didn't seem to know their passion because I was like, that'd be nice. Because then you can just do whatever, like way less pressure, you know?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, it's funny when I was younger and talking to my dad about my dream of being a filmmaker and pursuing it, all the things that I sacrifice or I lost in my commitment to pursuing that dream. My dad, I remember him telling me, just make sure your dream doesn't become a nightmare.

Sometimes it's just a thought. Your dream can one day become a nightmare. Maybe you've given up too much for it, or maybe you have, and then you get there and you realize, wait, this is what I wanted so badly to get through, and then you get it and you're like, wait, what? But then again, maybe that's part of life. You achieve it, you have it, and you've learned, and because you've gone through that process, you've changed. So now you've changed, and now in your position, there's a thing you sought after. Because you've changed and you're in that position that you've achieved, you're like, oh wait, maybe there's something else. Now, because I'm a change. In order for me to get here, I had to go through trials, tribulations, challenges, growth, learnings, but now I'm here, I'm a different person. So now what's the next thing? So I think that's totally normal as well.

Melanie Avalon
I'm having flashbacks to what grade was it, 9th grade Bible class in high school, where the debate was, did we have to go through, did God have to give us challenges in order for us to evolve, or could we, in theory, not have challenges. It was a really spirited debate.

Topaz Adizes
Wow. I mean, generally you'd say, yeah, we need the challenges, but what was the point of view of the argument of the other side saying, no, we don't need them to really.

Melanie Avalon
What's interesting because I'm trying to remember the teacher was saying we needed them. And I think I was saying that we didn't.

I think I was saying in theory, I don't see why we would have to have them. Like in theory, it could still manifest without them. And like in theory, like there is like a logical path that exists. So if it exists, then it can exist. If that makes sense.

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, totally. And I would I would hope that you're right.

And I think I think there are some people who are able to do that without but but unfortunately, or fortunately, challenges and conflict is a great mechanism for learning and growth. Like that does work, right? You have a challenge, you figure it out, you lead into discomfort, you grow through it, you're changed, you've grown. That algorithm works, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and actually, because that was one of your, one or multiple of your questions in your book involved, you know, isolating and identifying the conflict between people. And I know at some point you talk about that, about the benefit of conflict and how it leads to growth.

And actually, I had that question again in my head when reading it. I was like, is that actually required in relationships?

Topaz Adizes
I don't think it's required. I just think it's not necessarily something that we should avoid. A lot of us avoid conflict. I think two out of three people avoid conflict either because they don't feel comfortable or because they feel it's inefficient. So they just totally avoid it.

But I think conflict can be utilized in a positive manner. You know, conflict is not necessarily bad. It's something that it depends on how we respond to it. And what do we do with it?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think you said at some point reframing it as a challenge, it's just really powerful, you know, the words we and the perspective that we put to things, which by the way, quick question. Another question, you open with something in the book that I thought was so mind blowing and I keep thinking about it.

You mentioned that every thought in our head, because we have these thoughts in our heads all the time and that they are from a question, even things that we think are statements in our heads are being prompted by a question we have.

Topaz Adizes
Like every thought you have is actually an answer to a question you're asking. You're just not conscientious of the question you're asking. I E you wake up in the morning and you go, you know, Oh my God, I have to do that today. Geez Louise. Well, that statement is an answer to a question. What's the thing I have to do today? Right. Or you meet someone and go there, you know, they're not very nice. Well, that's a judgment you're making to someone. But what that's actually an answer to a question, which is, how do I feel about them? Or, you know, do I like them? No, they're not very nice. So everything we think is actually an answer to a question, but we are so cognizant of the answer. We're not paying attention to the question that we're asking ourselves.

And so if you make that swap, if you focus on the question, you're shaping the answer. I believe like the next book I'm writing is called, the question is the answer where I do believe that the question shapes the answer. So if you wake up in the morning and you, you know, you're going to have a crazy day, challenging day. And you say, I'm saying, Oh my God, I got to do that today. Oh no. Which is an answer to like, Oh, what's the shitty thing I have to do today? Instead you say, okay, I know I got a crazy day ahead. I know it's going to have some conflict or some challenges. You know, I got to have the conversation with this person. Okay. Change a question so that you're searching for something that is fetches you an answer that gives you agency. So you say, huh, what's the thing I can learn today? That's going to make me better. What's the special gift that today's offering me that I may not realize. And then you're positioning your mind to be looking for that thing. So all day you're going through challenges and your mind is trying to answer that question. What's the special thing that this day is gifting me that I may not realize. And your mind will be looking for that. And guess what? You'll find it.

Melanie Avalon
So I had recently on the show, it hasn't aired yet. It's called the happiness formula. The author is, here we go with another name, Alfonsus Obayuana. He did a huge project studying human hope, and happiness as well. And he's come up with this formula that he thinks can actually measure somebody's happiness.

And going through the different questions that you answer for the formula, everything really tracked for me about, oh, yes, this relates to happiness for me or this doesn't. However, one of them, because he talks about these hungers that we have in life, so these things we need that involve, like human connection and, you know, shelter and resources and things like that. And one of them is a hunger for, like answers. And because he sees the hunger for answers as a hunger. So it's something that actually detracts from your happiness score. So basically, if you answer the question about like having a lot of questions, that actually decreases your happiness score.

Topaz Adizes
Wait, wait, wait, say that again. So wait, wait, wait. So if you have a lot of questions, it decreases your happiness score.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. It was the one thing, because it was one of the hungers. So all the other hungers made sense to me, like hunger for food, hunger for relationships, hunger for religion, spirituality, and those aren't the exact names he uses, but those are the ideas of them. And all of those made sense to me.

I was like, yeah, if you have hungers for those, that's gonna, you know, lower my happiness score. But one of them, or and one of them, I try not to use the word but, and one of them is hunger for answers. And so for that, I rated myself really high, because literally, I thrive on asking questions, like, and thinking about it, because of what you just said, I feel like I go through life from a question perspective. And I feel like it adds to my happiness, having that approach.

But then my question to wrap all this in a bow for you is, so if we're in this approach of focusing on the questions, looking for answers, what is the role of happiness? And if we do or do not find the answers to the questions.

Topaz Adizes
Yeah. So let me just ask a question. He says the hunger for answers, does that increase or decrease your happiness?

Melanie Avalon
it decreases your happiness. So if you have a lot of hunger, yeah.

Topaz Adizes
So what I hear in that is, what I hear in that, I don't know. I don't know how he defines answers and I don't know how he defines happiness, but what comes up for me is, or how he defines hunger, but what comes up for me is, okay, when you say you're hungry for answers, what I hear in that is that you're hungry for certainty. You want certainty.

The world is like full of unknowns and yes, no's and I don't know, just gray zones, you want answers. You want definitive answers. Why? Because it gives you a sense of certainty. How is that helpful? It gives you a sense of safety. And why is he saying that actually that getting answers decreases happiness is because this world is changing so fast and the world is not so clear and there are many contradictions that we have to hold because life is full of contradictions so that maybe it's the ability to sit in lack of certainty and your ability to actually sit in the question versus having the answers, your ability to do that increases your ability to be happy because you're able to deal with the fact that things are changing so much and that things are not clear. And so that kind of makes sense for me.

That can resonate for me if what he's saying is interpreted in the way that I am, which I don't know if it is, but that's what comes up for me. And I think that the cost, and I just actually funny, I just wrote about this on Monday, the cost of certainty. What is the cost of certainty? We want certainty. We want safety. We want to know that we see the world clearly because that gives us a sense of safety, but the world is full of contradictions that we have to hold at the same time, frankly. And part of that is in asking questions and sitting in the space before you receive the answer and knowing that maybe you get two different competing answers that maybe both are valid or have a valid angle to them that are worthwhile noting. That's something that we need to practice, frankly. We're not practicing it because the algorithms we're getting on social media are feeding certainty. Like everyone is speaking in platitudes and every type of short asset you're getting is like reinforcing your, basically your confirmation bias already, and that's why you're clicking on it and you're getting them, therefore getting fed more of it. And so you're not really practicing sitting in discomfort. You're not really practicing sitting in the space of questions, but that is frankly, what I think is part of life is having a little more humility and curiosity to explore what is versus how you think it should be or how you want it to be.

Melanie Avalon
That completely makes sense. And actually, that's, I mentioned earlier, trying not to use the word, but the reason I do that is because it's kind of, it relates to what you're just saying right now, where when we use the word, but we say one thing, and then we, but, so then we're negating what we just said. So it's like a dichotomy, where it can only be one thing or the other. And we're, rather than the and, where, you know, all things can exist at one time. And if you can't use and in that sentence, that means you're, like, why say the first part, because you probably don't believe it. So, yeah, this is just so, so fascinating to me.

Did you, because we were talking earlier about, you know, people having passions or not having passions and knowing what you want to do and not knowing what you want to do. So this perspective that you have now about questions and how you view the world, do you remember when that started for you? I know you talk about moments in the book that you have with your parents. What has your experience been coming to this, this mindset that you have?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah. Well, really for the last 12 years, I've been in a privileged position where I'm able to witness humans being humans. And what I mean by that is I bring two people into a room who know each other, any kind of relationship, and they fill out a questionnaire, which I've read and I've created a set of questions that I offer them on a table. They sit facing each other with a low table between them and they just sit for an hour and hour and 15 minutes and they ask each other these questions. And I've been watching those conversations for 12 years, over 1200 conversations, and I've learned a lot.

I've learned a lot. And I think that now looking back, I realize how my life has been learned by questions, but I didn't know it at the time. I was just doing it, but I didn't know it at the time. But now if I look back, I can see how it was led by questions. And what brought me to this point that I realized my life was led by questions is that I just saw the power of questions in the frame of these 1200 conversations between people. You see an opportunity, you're like, wait, let me construct this question in a way that makes them feel a little uncomfortable because it's exploratory, because maybe it talks about the elephant in the room, or maybe because it talks about something they never talked about before, but it reinforces the same time, the safe space that's created between them, which enables them therefore to go deeper in this vulnerability and this exploration. And frankly, doing that for 10, 12 years now, and over 1200 times, and also training my team to do it, because it's not just me who does it, there's a way that this can work. And that's what's instilled in the book. Oh, I see. The answer is shaped by the question. So therefore, what are the actions that I've taken in my life have been dictated by what? By a question. So what was that question? When I was very young, in my 20s, coming out of college, I mean, and frankly, for about 18 years, 20s till I was 37, I think the question that was leading me was like, it was my father's question that he posted me, which is, you know, it only really matters if you're a genius. So my question that asked the world was, do they think I'm a genius? So when I went to Sundance the first two times, and I sat in the audience and they're watching the film with me, the question I was trying to answer was, do they think I'm a genius? And you could just imagine how difficult that is for that to be answered in the positive tone. It's like, well, not only do they have to like me, but they have to think I'm a genius. So you can, you know, you can imagine how unhappy I was. Versus, you know, a few years later, five years later, and as I grew and evolved and had some experiences and better understood myself, I stopped asking the question that I kind of adopted from my father and just was asked myself, are they enjoying this as much as I am? And that puts you in a much different perspective, because you're looking for a different answer. Are they enjoying this as much as I am? I'm having a great time. Are they enjoying this as much as I am?

Topaz Adizes
Yes, too bad. I mean, yes, great.

No, too bad. Like, wow, I'm having a great time. And I really think we are asking ourselves questions all the time, whether it's in our business, whether it's in our relationships, whether it's with our conversations with ourselves. And we are always looking for answers, because that's what we are taught to do. That's what we practice doing. We're searching for answers all the time. But all the power is in the question. All the power is in the question. And I can give you a very simple example. For example, if anyone has kids out there, you'll get this. It's like, your two kids are five, I have a five and a two year old. And it gets around bedtime, eight o'clock. I say, Hey, kids, you want to go to sleep? Do you want to go to sleep? Clearly, the answer is no. But if I just change the question, do you want to sleep on the bed or the couch? The option of saying no, it just is not there. That's not an option. Because the question has shaped the possibilities. And that pertains to our lives, to our relationships. So the question is, how do you construct good questions?

Melanie Avalon
So actually to that point, so when you were asking yourself that question, are they enjoying this as much as I am, which has a yes, no answer. What is the role of that versus like, how are they enjoying this?

Like a more open-minded.

Topaz Adizes
I'm so glad you brought that up because, frankly, the how is so much better than the binary are. Like, how boring is life if it's just yes, no? Sometimes you need it. Sometimes, like, sometimes you need it. Sometimes you just need to know. You want to make this deal? You want to break up? You know, sometimes you need the yes, no, we need to make it super clear.

But most of the time, life is full of nuance in the gray zone. And if we want to explore it, why are we asking binary questions? So, that's a great point. A better question is, are they enjoying this as much as it means, like, how much are they enjoying this? Or like, in what ways are they enjoying this differently than I am? Or what ways are they enjoying this the same and differently than I am? And now my mind, the faithful dog, if you will, will chase down that answer. And so that stick that you throw in what ways are they enjoying this in the same and differently than I am is going to fetch me a lot of different answers versus are they enjoying this as much as I am? Yes, no, done. Life is more colorful with the question, how are they enjoying this similarly and differently than I am? In what way? So, that's a great point. I think that goes to the point of constructing questions. And what you're saying is like, which I say in the book is, especially in the context of relationship, don't ask. If you want to explore your relationship and deepen it, don't ask questions with is, are, do, would, should. Because any question that starts with any of those words ends with a binary response.

Are we in love? Should we get married? Yes, no. Would you like to... It's yes, no. Like, don't... Or right, left. Binary responses. And in relationship, if you want to explore it, start questions with how, in what way, why, when. Because that, just starting a question with any of those words requires a non-binary response.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I think it relates to like earlier, what you were saying about searching for certainty, like looking for yes-no is for me at least feels like it's searching for certainty.

Like you just want to know like the yes-no of the reality, which feels a lot more potentially fear-based or, you know, like just insecurity-based compared to this open-minded, you know, how or why. There's so many options.

Topaz Adizes
It's just like to what end, right? Sometimes you need a very clear, stark, yes, no answer. Sometimes it's got to be black and white.

Sometimes it doesn't, but we don't apply that thinking of we need the gray now into how do we construct the question so that we can get the gray, that we can get the nuance, that we can get the deeper threads and undercurrents of what's happening here. And so it's to what end, you know, what conversation do you want to have with yourself or with someone else? And I'm not denying that sometimes you need the binary. Sometimes you need the super clear, but sometimes you don't. And so then how do you construct the appropriate question?

Melanie Avalon
So in the evolution of doing this project, you mentioned, you know, like how many hours?

Topaz Adizes
Hours? Yeah, over 1,200. Over 1,200 easily, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
a few things there. One, what is the role of having the camera there and having a third party viewer watching these conversations?

How do you think they would go if, you know, you weren't there orchestrating it, but they still ask the questions?

Topaz Adizes
I mean, frankly, I don't feel like I orchestrate much of it other than the only orchestration I feel we're doing is placing the questions and the order of the questions and what basically the participants tell us, and I know because I've done it a few times, is once you're sitting there and you're starting to ask these questions, you're focused on the other person in your relationship because these questions are really exploratory. They're wonderful. They put you in that zone of deepening your connection, articulating things maybe you haven't before, articulating the things that you've always wanted to collate but haven't. And so you're focused on the other person and you forget about the cameras and you forget about the space you're in.

As a matter of fact, we create a space, and I think this is something you could do on your own as well without the cameras, but by virtue of the cameras there and the setup, it's very clear. We are focused on our conversation now. We're not looking at our phones. We know we're here to talk for an hour and a half. So if I'm answering a question in depth about why I love you, you're there to receive it because you're not wondering, wait, why are we having this conversation? Because we're in the space.

That's why we're having this conversation. And so therefore, you know what is expected of you as behavior and what is expected of others.

So that space is created to really have a deeper connection. And so what I've learned from the 12 years here is, you know, there's really two things involved. One, create the space and two, have well-constructed questions. We've been talking about what we mean by well-constructed questions.

And now we're talking about the space. You know, you have the cameras there. It's great. But you can also create the space by virtue of these card games. You mentioned we have like 16 editions of them. If you come home and say, hey, you talked to your partner, your friend, I want to play a game. What's the game? Well, these boxes, 200 questions that just sit down, put the phones aside and have a glass of wine or a cup of tea. And I just randomly pull out a question and talk about it. Okay, you create the space, these questions come out and now you embark on a journey of exploration.

You know, we don't often have, we don't often create those spaces for us in our relationships. And it's really interesting because these relationships are really important to us. And the ones that are really important to us, we actually almost take them for granted because they're so close to us. Right. It's your husband, it's your wife, it's your best friend. It's like, oh, no, they get me. They always got my back. That's there. I'll pay more attention to this or spend more time on that. But like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's spend more attention with the relationships closest to us. Well, great.

How do we do that? We need to create the space, put the phones away, create the context by which you understand why we're asking these questions so it's not random.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, it does completely. And I actually I loved that part of the book when you were talking about the safe space because you're comparing it to theater.

And how, you know, when you, when you enter a theater, you're basically, you're accepting and willingly entering a space where there might be, you know, really intense emotions and really, you know, potentially scary relationships and things, but you want to be there and it's a safe space. And so I thought that was really a really profound perspective on, on looking at it that way.

Topaz Adizes
But totally because you're an actor, you understand. I mean, you can be an actor who's playing a role and on stage or on front of the camera, but let's say on stage because there's no cuts and you're running through it where you're really being incredibly vulnerable. And even though you're playing a character, you're drawing from the vulnerabilities of your actual life and you're sharing your heart on a stage with this audience, right? And even though it's through the artifice of some narrative fiction or otherwise, it still can be incredibly realistic and you're drawing from the real ingredients of your emotional life. And the fact that you're acting in the play actually gives you permission to even go deeper than you would in real life because there is a structure here that you're playing by and you'll know that you'll return back to some level of equilibrium. Does that make sense?

I mean, I've seen that like when I'm performing when I reached a direct actor, it's like sometimes my actors would go super deep and do things that are really personal because they have this artifice that they can hold on to, whether it's the lines or the structure of the play or the scene. And then when I'm filming documentaries, sometimes these people that the subjects that I'm filming will not go as deep because it's real life, right? And so sometimes what happens in the theater, like if you go to see the theater, really good theater, depending on what style of the direction is and what style of play is, but if I'm going to watch a drama in the theater, it's because I'm going to, I'm going to be able to feel things and see humans behave in a really vulnerable, real, raw way in a safe space. So because the rules are established, we're in the theater. I know no one's going to come hurt me, even though they're yelling. I know that they're going to really perform, but they're not going to hurt each other as actors, right? And so we can witness in a safe way, emotional turbulence and emotional vulnerability in a way that's safe.

And I think, you know, how do we give ourselves that permission in our conversations of our lives? It's about creating the space. I think that's, it's a key thing we miss out on. We miss out and very simple example, very simple example. You come home and your partner comes home and says, Melanie, why do you love me? Well, you're not washing the dishes. You're on the couch on TV. You're doing some work. Your first thought is not why you love your partner. Your first thought is where's this coming from? Why are they coming home?

Melanie Avalon
Why is he asking this?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, why are they asking me this? What's going on? And similarly, if they come home and say, Melanie, I love you so much. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you and love me. You move me. I mean, you are the definition of my life and my life. They tell you all this, how much you mean to them. You're wondering where's this coming from.

The space has not been created for you to fully receive. However, if we create the space, i.e., we're going to for you to pull out a question that says, why do you love me from a game? Oh, now your partner can ask you why you love them. And you don't have to wonder about where it's coming from. You don't have to wonder about the context. It's clear. We're playing a game. I'm not going to answer the question or vice versa. They tell you what you mean to them. You can now fully receive it. Why? Because the context has been there, has been built. The space has been built. So how often in our lives do we build the space to have these kinds of conversations?

Melanie Avalon
This is probably the driving foundational reason that kids play truth or dare, or one of them, so that they can ask questions.

Topaz Adizes
Hmm, that's great. I mean, where did I hear that there's like fear and love, but actually love is play. Like the true form of love is play or the true form of happiness is play. And playing games gives us a lot of permission. Gives us a lot of, whether it's charades or truth and dare or like games create the context for us to do things that are play and justified in a way that is safe, but also gets us a little bit uncomfortable and fun.

And I think that's a great thing to remember is like, how can I create a space by which we can enjoy having a deeper conversation? You know, how I can feel my relationship and my connection to you or the important people in my lives? How do I create a space so that we can maybe explore some tensions that we have in a way that we can collaboratively find a way to heal it? And I think I just think it's important to create the space and how do you do that is also in the book. That's the things I've been learning on this journey. And I long-winded thing, but you asked me about like questions in my life. And these are all things that I've just learned by having the privilege opportunity to witness people have conversations and just watching for patterns of all kinds of people and realizing the power of space and realizing the power of well-constructed questions.

Melanie Avalon
So the 12 questions, at what point in that journey did you crystallize those?

Topaz Adizes
Well, that came from Jill, Jill, who one day wrote to me from, um, she's an editor at a publishing house for random, one of the ones at Penguin Random House. She's been a fan of the skin deep for years and watched the and for years. And she just, I guess, I don't know why it was in the ethos. Cause I was out there in the, in the, in the, um, zeitgeist, because in one week I got two emails from two different editors, Jill and another lady from Simon Schuster in New York. I don't know why I got it the same week, but I did. And Jill had been a fan and she knew the value of it. And I just really appreciate it.

She asked, she's like, Topaz, what is you've been doing at this point. I've been doing it for like 10 years, nine years. She said, what have you seen are the 12 questions that are leading to most cathartic conversation. And it's not just it's intimate conversations. And that doesn't mean romantic only that could be, you could be intimate with your best friend, with your brother, with your grandparent, could be with your colleague. I mean, it's like, what are the 12 questions that really lead to intimate conversations and deeper connections? And I said, Hmm. And I looked through our years and hours and I said, well, these are, these are the, these would be the 12th and these will be the order cause these seem to be what I've learned definitely work and I know why they work. And also, so the sequence in which we place them, it creates a kind of an exponential effect, right? Cause there's a structure to the, there's a five act structure to those 12 questions. To take us through and that structure makes each unique question even that much stronger because not only the way well-constructed as an individual question, it's well-constructed as a journey and a five act structure from beginning to end.

Melanie Avalon
Did they immediately come to you pretty intuitively or were you workshopping a lot?

Topaz Adizes
It didn't come intuitively a workshop it came from 10 years of doing it and it's pretty obvious which one's really working why that point I've been doing it for 10 years.

Melanie Avalon
So were there any that you were debating between either including or not including or changing the order around?

Topaz Adizes
I mean, the order is pretty clear and so why, and then in the back of the book, I offer other questions that you could swap out for the, where they're placed. Like if the, you know, the first three are, have a certain function, the second three have another function. Questions seven and eight have, are the kind of climax, nine and 10 are kind of starting to resolution and 11 and 12 are kind of acknowledging the things we should say because we never know when the end is coming and really what's the most depth. So the structures there in the end of the book, I have different questions you could place anywhere that fit in the structure of it.

It was pretty easy to select. There's a few that I had to maybe combine two questions into one, but definitely the exercise of writing the book and really asking the questions to myself, like, why are these working? I know these work. I've seen these work. Why are they working? What is it about this question that works so well? What is this question actually doing in the way it's constructed, but also in its placement in the five act structure? And that's what's a lot in the book. And obviously anyone will tell you when they write a book, you, it's a very kind of reflective process and you have to go in and you got to look, you have to look at it and really try to analyze what's working here because it puts it into that point, it was trial and error and led by intuition.

Melanie Avalon
So actually to that point, one of these questions sparked a pretty good, deep conversation with me and a friend, and it's one we've mentioned already, but it's question 11, which was, if this was our last conversation, what is something you never want me to forget? Also, kind of 12 as well, why do you love me?

Because you make the case in the book that we save these really powerful questions for moments in life, like on our deathbed or, you know, we don't say these things to other people. We don't tell them how much we love them or, you know, talk about this just on the regular. Most people don't. How often should, I don't know if I should use the word should, but how often could we be doing this with a positive ROI? Is there a point where we could overdo it by talking about this too much and then it kind of doles down the moment and makes it less special?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think a good barometer is when you're finished the conversation, how do you feel? Do you feel charged and, you know, amplified and that your connection has deeper resilience and trust and joy in it? Or do you feel depleted and exhausted?

If the latter, then maybe either the relationship is in a strong one and a good one that you should be in, or maybe you're overdoing these conversations. I don't know what to tell you. What I've seen from my experience is that anytime you have this conversation, you come out generally if you have a relationship that is positive and constructive and empowering, you come out with a lot more energy because you realize things or you've said things or you've heard things that you haven't before.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. And actually, I realized I talked about it with a friend in person.

And we actually talked about it on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast in the beginning, because I had just finished your book. And I was talking about it with my co-host, Barry Conrad, about why do we not say things to people? Why do we wait for these moments?

Topaz Adizes
We have the false belief that in the movies, you always have that moment to say goodbye, which is just not life. Life isn't like that.

And then we also have in our culture, in the Western culture, primarily states, it's like, don't be cheesy, right? Don't be this emotional talk. And I think that's opening up a lot more now with vulnerability, which is also getting to some degree like this a little bit overused now, at least I hear it a lot. But I think for me, and this is not for everybody, but for me, and maybe that's why I end up in this space doing this, is that for me, that is what life is about. It's about your connections with other people. I mean, you come into this world alone, and then you enter it and you make these relationships, and then you leave it. But your relationships still echo into the future. And they are what remind you of the value of being in the present alive. I don't know, that's what, for me, it's about the threads that bind us. That's where I've derived a lot of, I think there's a lot of nutrients in those threads that bind us that can really amplify our experience of what it means to be alive as humans.

Melanie Avalon
I think about this a lot. So I really, everything that you said, I agree. I really, really value relationships with people. I think they're one of the most important things. They're so important to me personally.

And there's a lot of people out there. So there's a lot of people that you could have potential, really beautiful relationships with, in my opinion. If you are in a relationship with somebody, and there's studies on the exposure effect. We tend to like people more, the more we're exposed to them, doing these sorts of questions. I imagine because of how they're orchestrated and their goals and their intentions for how they bring people together, they would, in theory, strengthen bonds with people. What about if you actually, quote, shouldn't be with a certain person? I guess it can go both ways. Like maybe you discovered doing this, that you're not compatible. And so that's, you know, could be for the better. Or on the flip side, could it actually make you grow closer when actually you should be growing away from that person?

Topaz Adizes
Hmm. Yeah, the word should is always like a challenging thing, you know what? So you're growing closer to them, but you should not be growing closer to them.

That's a good question. I mean, I don't know much about toxic relationships. So I always wonder about that. I always wonder about where's the line between safety and discomfort? Because I always say that the goal is you want to be safe, but you want to be uncomfortable because that's where you grow. You know, if I go bungee jumping, in theory, I'm super safe because these people have done, you know, thousands of bungee jumps. They know the bungee core, they know how it's tied in. Great. But you're going to jump and you're going to feel super uncomfortable.

But when you're done, you're going to feel so exhilarated. So that's the same in your relationship. Are you safe? And it's okay to be uncomfortable then. And I don't know where that line is, per se. That's not my expertise. But I am curious about that. And I've been wondering about that because, look, I have a relationship with someone that right now, I just don't trust the space between us. So I don't want to have that. I don't want to have that uncomfortable conversation because I just don't trust it.

I don't trust this. I don't trust their intentions. I don't trust who they are. And so therefore, why would I enter into that space to have that conversation? Because to me, it's not safe. But then you're like, well, is that just me being uncomfortable? It's just not safe. And I think that is something about self-awareness, about conversation. You live and learn and you say, oh, wait, I've seen this before. I'm not doing that again. God knows, in my 20s and 30s, early 30s, I was definitely 20s a lot because of my parents' divorce and how I shaped and my lack of self-esteem. I was definitely chasing, had one partner, I called her the emotional terrorist. And I allowed her to emotionally terrorize me. And my neighbor, one just said, Topaz, you're chasing after her because what would happen if she stopped and faced you and was actually intimate with you?

And I can't imagine that for a moment. I realized I would run away. So I'm only able to chase after her. And it feels great to chase after it because she's not being intimate and present with me. That was healthy to see as a reflection. And I think that the barometer that I keep coming back to is if you have this conversation and when you leave it, you feel depleted of energy and you feel disempowered in your relationship and as an individual. Those are markers of pay attention to. And in my life, when I've had conflicts with people and I've faced them and addressed them with them, the ones that I usually come out, not always, but I usually with the ones of people that I still am friends with and have connection, I come out more empowered because I know we've weathered that storm. I mean, it's one reason why makeup sex can be great because you've just had a fight before. And the makeup sex is you've been through the storm of an emotional turbulent moment and you've weathered it and you're resilient to it.

Topaz Adizes
And you're now reconnecting on a deeper level or on a more amplified level. And therefore, you're more resilient and more connected.

I think there's something to that. And so for me, currently where I sit, and from my understanding, for me of my life experiences, do you feel empowered after the conversation? Do you trust the space between? Do you trust them?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so there's that, that level of trust and safety. And then there's also because I loved one of the one of the sections of potential, I guess, non negotiables that could come up in a relationship, because I feel like it's something I would run into barriers with a lot with people, which was the mutual dreams, or the mutual interests.

So, you know, you could have a realization with somebody that you have conflicting, or that you don't have a mutual shared dream, you know, be it like kids or whatever it may be.

Topaz Adizes
I think we need mutual projects in relationships, any type of relationship. I think you need a mutual project. And when that mutual project concludes, you need to, it's really helpful to say, okay, what's our next project? And the project could literally be, well, our projects are, you're gonna do your thing and I'm gonna support you as much as possible. And I'm gonna do my thing. You just want me and my, those are our projects for us to go as far away on our individual journeys, but we're gonna be support structures for each other.

Okay, you know, or it could be our children, or it could be we're gonna build this company or we're gonna build this home. We're gonna build this lifestyle. I definitely think we need projects because I've, I don't know, looking around, I'm 49. And looking around at the arc of relationships that I've seen in my life and the stories that they've had, there does seem to be a moment. Because in your 20s, you don't have that. You don't see projects endings. So projects beginning, right? But when you're 49, you have seen divorces. You have seen people split up and you've seen, well, was there a pattern to that? Usually the pattern is because the projects have shifted and they're not able to work on a project together. Do you feel that way?

Melanie Avalon
Do you feel that way? A really powerful conversation I had with a friend, she told me, cause she's married and they've been married quite a while. They, they don't have kids, they don't want kids. And she told me that when you don't want or have kids with your partner, you need to have some other, it's literally, she used like, I think she might have used the word projects. She's like, you have to, you have to create something else together. She's like, there has to be something that you're working on together. If it's not kids, then it's, you know, like you're like a career related thing. Or I I've been just haunted by this question for a long time because I personally don't want kids, at least not right now, and don't foresee myself being. And I feel like that's a little bit rarer for women to feel that way. So this, this is a question that has definitely haunted me for a long time.

So I'm fascinated by this concept of mutual projects. And I'm fascinated by how much is it a non-negotiable if you have different projects and then, you know, what is the role of different mutual projects that aren't kids per se? So I'm not sure if there's a question there, but I'm just, I love this question is the point.

Topaz Adizes
I've seen that too. I have very close friends who didn't have kids and they've separated. Or I've seen similar where people who have raised their kids and the kids leave the home, that project kind of like go off to college or get out. They're empty nesters now. Now they're left with each other. That project's ended.

So what's the new project and having that conversation? And I don't think it's not a transaction. I don't want to give the wrong impression about... It's not a transaction. You're like, oh, we're in a project together and you're doing this for me and I'm doing this for you. It's not that. It's about what's the journey we're on. What is the shared journey that we're having in our lives? And let's be cognizant of it. Let's be aware that we're... Yes, we are on a journey. We're not just waking up as zombies every day doing this and that, even though that's what it may feel like. But how do we invite ourselves to be cognizant of this is a journey that we're on together. Let's enjoy it. The goods, the bads. Let's help shape it. Let's choose what best we can. Of course, life is going to take you where life's going to take you. But let's enjoy this river rafting trip down the river. Are we enthused that we're going to the same space? Are we targeting for the same thing? And do we treat each other well on that journey?

Melanie Avalon
I feel like in society, there is a morality that is ascribed to people staying together. It's like if you stay together, that's the good thing to do because you're making a commitment and you're weathering the storm and you're being loyal. I'm just really curious about that.

I don't know why that is because if people aren't supposed to be together, then what's wrong with that?

Topaz Adizes
I mean, to me it's like the difference between a nice cocktail and a nice bottle of wine, you know, sometimes you want different things. Nice cocktail was just made there fresh, specialized in special, you know, or do you want a 20 year old bottle of wine? Tastes different, it's very different. It's a different experience.

And so to me, this goes to the question, like, what's the experience I want to have as a human being? And how do I treat the journey that I'm on everyone I meet with, with respect and acknowledgement, you know, kind of respecting their own journey that they're on. And so I think I think it's unique to each of us. And for me, you know, I didn't meet my partner until I was 42. So I had 20 some years of dating and relationships, and I've learned a lot. And I don't think I would change it.

And I'm not in a rush to get out of what I have now. Because I'm looking for a new script. I mean, I want a new script. I wanted a new script. I knew I knew the script of the love affairs and these relationships that lasted what they were two, three years, two, three months, whatever, five years, like I knew that script of how that was. And I wanted a different script. I wanted a script like that. I had no idea how it was written, because I never experienced it before. A long term relationship for 20 years. What's that like? And you know what, what's great is that you can always take a script and read it and go down that journey. And when it no longer works for you, and you feel like you want a different journey, then you respectfully take a different journey. You know, but you do it respectfully, you do it in a way that acknowledges the other person and acknowledges this other soul that's, that's walked with you, that's that's reflected your journey for that period of time.

You know, I think I think that's one of the most painful things from a breakup, is that who at least I found for myself, you know, you break up with I broke up with someone for three years, we live together, it was wonderful. And the breakup was really hard for me. It was really hard for years after. And part of it, I think it was was that I didn't just lose them, I lost who I was with them. Where do those three years go, and those memories and the spaces we're in, and who I was in that relationship, that's gone, because they're gone. So there's also a part of your ego that's missing that version of you that was with them. Not just that you miss them, you miss the version of you that was with them.

I just think that's part of life. That's part of what it that's part of what it is. We have these opportunities to have all these different experiences. And they're dictated, not by the answers, but by the questions we ask ourselves. And that's that's the missing piece that I think we are so trained on like, what am I doing? Should I break up? Should I not break up? Should I take this job? Should I should I confront this person? Should I not?

Topaz Adizes
Like, okay, well, is there a better question to ask? You know, should I stay in this relationship or not? That's a yes, no answer.

Like, is there a better question to ask? And if and I have found that if you create a better question, if you construct a better question, then that one of should I stay in this relationship or not? Should I break up or not? Should we get married or not becomes clear.

Melanie Avalon
actually remember exactly where I was standing when I read this part of your book because the visceral reaction I felt was so intense. I felt like it felt like a sigh of relief reading this and I was reflecting on how I never really thought about this before, but it was when you were talking about the role of asking specific questions and just talking about how we tend to make these open-ended general questions that are vague and require this huge commitment and big answer.

And you talk about how if you make the question very, very specific, then you can much more easily answer it. And it doesn't have to be this huge forever proclamation thing. I was like, you know what? I'm going to start using this. This is a really good tool to have in the toolbox.

Topaz Adizes
That's what I mean by, you know, focusing on the question. And what you're saying is like, oftentimes we're like, we're going to get married forever. Well, my God forever is so long. It's so, it's forever.

Life has so many different chapters. Will we make it? No, we're going to get married now. For what? For this chapter in this period of time. I think when you construct a question, you fill in three fields. What you're leading to is the thing in the book where I talk about, you know, my wife and I were asking, where should we live? That's not a very good question. Because where should we live for it? That's like, well, how long and for what and for why and for who? And I mean, and so we asked that question and you can imagine we were banging our heads against the wall for years because it just wasn't a well-constructed question.

It was just too big. So there's three things you do that one does to really hone in and construct a great question, the well-constructed question that will serve you. You give it a timeframe because life is chapters. It's time. Is this the next chapter in your life? Is this for the next year? Is this for the next six months? Is this for the next three years? Is this until your children are 10? Like until what? What timeframe? Okay. Then how does it make us feel? How does it make me feel? Am I feeling safe? Am I feeling challenged? Am I feeling inspired? Am I feeling vital? What am I feeling? Am I learning a lot? What is it? And then how does it affect others? Whether the others is your family, it's causes that are important to you, like your community, whether it's, you know, your partner, whether it's your children, how does it affect other people? And you just brainstorm 30 or 50 questions of that filling in different, the fields, the different blanks, timeframe, how it makes you feel, how it affects others.

Create 30, 40, 50 of them, look at them and circle the one that you're most inspired to answer. Boom. Circle that one. And then you can answer, should I quit my job? Should I leave my wife? Should I get married? You ask a really good question. These other ones become much more clear. They become much clearer. Does that make sense? And you had a visceral sense. You had a visceral sense when you read that part.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I had a sigh of relief because I was thinking, oh, there are multiple things in my life that I'm probably seeking an answer to. And I haven't because the question is just too big and too broad and too, I just can't answer it.

You know, you can't, it's scary to, to answer a question that grand or not open ended. So I was like, oh, I could start asking for these, whatever topics where I am doing that, where I'm asking too open ended of a question and therefore not coming to an answer, I could probably workshop this, make it a really specific question, and that can lead the journey there. And so I literally felt like a sigh of relief, like, oh, like, this is such a relief.

Topaz Adizes
And I think that's that's what I find in doing this for the last year of podcasts of over 100 of them. That seems to be a value offering to people is that the understanding that really focus on the question and how to construct a good question, such that it can offer you better answers, instead of taking questions that society gives you that we just simply accept, because it puts us in a position where the answers that are fed from that basic question are really hard to answer.

And they're not necessarily ones that are going to empower us and make us feel happier.

Melanie Avalon
And can you, can you just clarify a little bit? So with those three criteria, cause I completely get the timeframe part, then for the how it affects you versus how it affects other people, are you saying how the question feels or?

Topaz Adizes
No, like in the question. So give me an example of a question, a big question you want about.

Melanie Avalon
Should I move back to LA?

Topaz Adizes
Great. Okay. Should I move back to LA? So that's a hard one, right?

Should I move back to LA? Or like, okay. Okay. So now we're going to brainstorm five questions. So the first thing we do is timeframe. What can I do in the next year that makes me feel inspired such that I can become a great actor in my theater community or I can become such that I can inspire my fellow actors? Okay. What can I do for the next six months that nourishes me, right? That makes me feel safe and kind of relaxes my nervous system such that I could be fully present with whoever I'm with and make them also feel safe and seen. What can I do for the next three years that pushes me to the edge of my comfort level such that I'm growing in a way that puts me in a better position to support my family for the future? Those are three examples, four examples. You give me one.

Melanie Avalon
So a question about the examples, so how does that relate to going back to LA?

Topaz Adizes
So choose one of that. I just gave you like, what can I give me? What can I do for the next six months that makes me feel safe and relaxing my nervous system so that I can be fully present if that's the question.

Okay. Is LA the best answer for that one?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I see. Yes. So I see what you're saying.

Topaz Adizes
So you choose a question and they're like, okay, cool, if that's the question, should you move back to LA if that's the question? Will LA put you in the best position to fulfill that? If it's like, I wanna push my edges so that I feel really uncomfortable for the next year, so that I'm really growing and facing challenges and learning who I am, so that I can be an inspiration to my family. Okay, if that's the question, you tell me, is LA the answer for that?

Or is it staying in Atlanta, is it moving to New York or is it, right? Gotcha, okay.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so like a question I could ask would be, what could I do in the next year and a half to complete a certain project that I've been working on?

Topaz Adizes
Well, yeah, so let's go make it how it makes you feel. What can I do with the next 18 months that gives me a sense of completion because I've completed this project for my community or for my fan base or my subscribers?

Okay. If that's the case, is LA the answer?

Melanie Avalon
Right. Not for that one.

Topaz Adizes
Right, not for that. So that's why like, you know, I have friends who say, I don't know if I should, look, I'm at a stage now where I either need to marry this person or break up. And I've just been asking for months and I don't know. It's like, well, stop, just ask a different question. Just create a different question. And then circle the, like, so the exercise we just did, we came up with four questions. You create 30 to 50 of those. You're just brainstorming, creating, you're filling in the slots, timeframe, how it makes you feel and how it affects others. And then you look at them, you say, which is the one you're going to want to answer. That's the question we're answering right now in this phase of my life.

Circle that. Great. Okay. Should you marry this person? What should you do? Well, if that's the question, what I should do is I should stay with them for another six months or I should break up or yeah, I should get married. And if things change, things change, or I should move to LA or not. But basically we need to have a better, if you have a well constructed question, a better constructed question, you get better constructed answers.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that tool just became multifaceted because I was mostly looking at it from the perspective of creating just more specific questions. And now I see, so that's an option like, you know, should I move here compared to, or should I move compared to, should I move to a certain place for a certain amount of time, like a more specific question.

And then also this approach where you just ask a different question and you see if your original question answers this different question.

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, exactly. Because should I move to LA? It's like, yes, no. Okay. Well, I'm still, I'm in Atlanta. I'm still, there's still something that's like, that answer, yes, no.

You should move to LA, yes, no. How constructive is that and how much agencies does that give you in your life? Because clearly you're facing something if you're asking the question of you should completely move, right? So if you ask yourself a more holistic question, it's worth answering and it'll give you a more holistic answer. You're like, Oh, if that's the question I really want to answer, what can I do? Like, let's, you know, we can, if you want, we could continue to do this exercise. It's like, what is on the thing of you should move to LA? Like, what is the question that you construct just brainstorm a bunch of questions and you'll see the one you're like, no, that's what I really want to answer. That's a great question answer. Okay, great. Maybe you find it yourself. You know what? The answer is I can move to tell you, right? I'm moving, I'm staying in Atlanta. I'm actually going to go to Mexico for a year.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I've actually never been to Mexico, which is crazy because I lived so close to it.

Topaz Adizes
Does that resonate for you?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, it really does. It's a really, really, really wonderful reframe for so many things.

Topaz Adizes
I think everyone's aware of reframing things. I just think we're not aware of how to construct the questions that does the reframing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. How often do you find yourself in the day? Because this is definitely a practice.

So people, it's like when you learn anything new, any sort of language or perspective, you start seeing it because you didn't have it before. So once you learn it, you start seeing it and you have to cultivate it with you since you've been doing this so long and been really aware of the power of the questions. Does it happen more, like how much energy and time goes into actively reframing your questions versus now just naturally starting with questions that would, I don't want to say fit your criteria, but are the questions that you're aiming to have?

Topaz Adizes
Well, I always, like for me, as soon as I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall with an answer, I realize, uh-oh, Topaz, you fell into the trap. Okay, go to the question, focus on the question. One really obvious way that I see that in my life is with our business, right? Our business, with our team, we don't have a mission statement, we have a mission question. And frankly, that question changes every year.

So at the end of our year, which basically goes from March to March, because we kind of build it up to, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas and then Valentine's. So that that's our thing. And then we start again, every, at the end of after Valentine's mid-February, early March, we're focusing on what we literally spent two or three weeks deepening the question. We don't talk about what we're doing. We don't talk about the things we want to do. We're like, yeah, you write the things we're inspired to do. Great. Put that and post it in those aside. No, no, no, no. We're like honing in, what's the question we want to ask ourselves this year? So for instance, this year, the question was, if I remember correctly, it was, what can we do in the next year? You know, so that by March, 2026, that deepens our circle of influence. That means our connection with our community and the people that we influence and that influence us. How do we deepen that? How do we deepen our circle of relevance, meaning like the products we made and how relevant they are to people and how useful they are to people and increase our agency, which is both financial agencies so that we have more funds to reinvest in things we do and our agency about our ability to get things done in a cohesive way? That's our question. So what can we do the next 12 months that deepens our circle of influence, that deepens or expands our circle of relevance, relevant, and that gives us greater agency, both financial and the way we work together. And then we just, once we spent three weeks figuring out that's our question, we just started collecting all the answers and then gave it a timeframe and who's responsible for it.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, that's so interesting because if you start with the mission statement, then basically everything you're doing, you're just measuring if you did it or not compared to actively seeking answers and growing.

Topaz Adizes
evolving. And things are changing so fast.

Things are changing so fast. And you don't want to be a zombie, you know, that's like, become a zombie, you just, you're not offering value in the world, in my opinion, as a brand is definitely right, you're just clocking in or as a team member on a team, you just zombie just clocking in, you're not really how are we checking ourselves? How are we? What are we? It's just maybe it's a form of self awareness. It's just self awareness. What are the questions I'm asking myself? What is the question we're asking ourselves as a, as a team, as an organization, as a brand, so that we can offer more value in the world.

Melanie Avalon
Here's another topic. I'm dying to know your thoughts on this.

Have you heard of, um, I always forget how to say her name. I think it's Kasha Urbaniak. She wrote a book called Unbound, A Woman's Guide to Power. Okay, great. Tell me. Okay. So she, she's awesome. She used to be or is still a professional dominatrix. And she applies the, what she's learned being a dominatrix and power dynamics and, you know, being dominant or submissive in a relationship to like all of life. So not just sexual relationships, but just people engaging. And so her, her theory is that in any conversation, there's a dominant person and a submissive person at any one given time. And it has to do with where your, where your focus is. So when you're in the dominant state, your focus is outward on the other person. And when, when you're in the submissive state, your focus is inward on yourself. And so she says when it comes to questions, that questions are the way to immediately assume the dominant state. Not, not, this is not like a negative thing. It's just like a, just the way it is type thing. So she says that questions, yeah, they, they immediately make you dominant because you, you ask the other person a question. That person now has to reflect inward on themselves. So you're holding the power of attention in the conversation. So I'm really curious if you've thought about, and if you have thoughts on questions and, and power dynamics and conversations.

Topaz Adizes
100%. That's why the game works. I buy that immediately, and I tell this exactly to my HR and executive management clients. The one who yields the question holds the power, and that's why the power is the question.

Because you're saying, what are we focusing on? All right, everyone, this is the question we're going to be trying to answer. Well, why is that the question we should answer? And frankly, society has taught us to focus on the answer because society knows or the system knows the power is in the question, all the power is in the question. So I agree with her entirely. And that's why our products are amazing because, again, if you come home and you ask your partner, why do you love me? The context is they don't know what the context is, but also there's no equanimity between you because you have the power. You're saying this is what we're talking about. But if instead you come home and say, hey, I have this box of card games, we're going to choose a random question and you choose a random question and it's why do you love me? You didn't choose a question. You didn't partner didn't choose a question. The question came from the box. You're still equal. The power dynamic between is equal. And what happens then is that you're both more open. So like in a business meeting, the leader who goes, okay, guys, this is the question. And everyone's like, well, you got to be vulnerable to prime everyone to be vulnerable. So they're vulnerable with you. But like, no, no, no, no. You're asking the question. So you're not creating the space by which you're saying this is why we're asking this question. And you have to deactivate the power dynamic such that people will really give you their true answer and stop. Because usually if in the power dynamics of work, the boss asked the question or the leader, the manager, the executive asked the question. The answers you're getting are not the answers you're seeking. The answers you're getting is the team members answering in a way that gives them the safety of their job or can give them the best chance of elevating their position at work, right? It's the politics involved. So how do you deactivate that? Well, one way is you pull the question out of a box of cards. It's random. And that's why our co-workers deck is so amazing because people, oh my God, they, the, the random question was just asked when we play the game. That's the elephant in the room. Isn't that interesting? And it's not coming from some hidden agenda of the manager or the leader or someone else. And the other ways for the manager to be like, okay, guys, I've been thinking about this question. And the reason I've been thinking about this question, and you just, you state your intention and you're clear about it. And you let people know the context of it. Why do you think that the question is?

Topaz Adizes
And before you say, let's all answer this question. So is this the right question to ask? So you open up the room for them to share. Actually, I think a better question is this and why. And so you're making a, you want to bring the team into a, if you want to share that dynamic in the room, the power dynamic in the room, because by doing that, everyone feels more with more equanimity, therefore they feel safer and more vulnerable, willing to be vulnerable. And that's what you want.

You know, in this conversation, then you want a way to deactivate the power dynamic by you asking the question. So you state your intention, why you think the question is, and then you offer that question. Is this the best question to ask? Can we improve it? Is there another question to the group? And you go through a process of inviting the group to create the question. Then when the group has created the question altogether, then you will answer it. But yes, the power is in the question.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that is fascinating. And yeah, once I became aware of the power dynamic role of questions, I really started noticing it in conversations, especially if you're meeting somebody for the first time, you can feel the power dynamic shift based on the questions, especially in like first dates.

I'll tend to like on a first date, I ask a lot of questions. And if I meet somebody who asks a lot of questions back, it's like, Oh, because then I know I don't have the power as much in the relationship.

Topaz Adizes
Well, that's why it's like dating is always so interesting because you can ask a lot of questions and they talk a lot, but are they also aware of the give and take? And, you know, if, if, for instance, you're in a conversation, you ask them a lot of questions and let's say they're really gracious with their sharing and they share with you, but then they ask you a question and you give them a binary response, yes, no, and you close down, then that's also not being reciprocal.

Right. And so you can learn a lot about how people engage with one another through an actual conversation versus like a DM or something or voice notes to each other. I mean, but that's like a lost art, isn't it? Now? I mean, most of the dating or the pre-screening is happening on apps and DMs, right? Until you meet them in person.

Melanie Avalon
like the lost art of conversation.

Topaz Adizes
Yeah. Just being present with one another.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. How much do you think it can manifest in the written form like DMs?

Topaz Adizes
Yeah, I wonder about that. I think that can be really interesting. I don't deny that.

I think the only thing that the DM gives you is gives you more time. Gives you more time to think about how you're responding and there's also the opportunity for like misunderstanding the tone. But I think that also can be addressed with the emojis and little symbols. I just think the only difference there is that you have a little bit more time to consider your response. And so you're responding from a slightly different place than you would if it's in person live. Or like a phone conversation a lot now is people sending voice notes to each other. So you'll listen to a three minute voice note, then you'll think about it and then you respond. So basically we're not having a dialogue, we're having a bunch of monologues. I'm not making a judgment on it, I'm just noticing that's the thing that's happening. And so that's one art and you have this time delay where you can think of your response and be as eloquent. But there's another art to being present with someone and surfing together. Surfing the waves of the emotions, of the communication, of the experience you're both having at the same time.

Melanie Avalon
It's so true. And now we have, you know, chat GPT, so fixing your answers up.

Topaz Adizes
Mm, yeah, we're not even talking. I mean, even on dates, we're talking to like, versions of ourselves the best, but now you're gonna have DMS going to each other through chat GPT or whatever the AI is. And who knows what you're gonna, to me, the thing is just you get good at what you practice. So if you get really good at using chat GPT, you'll get really good at using chat GPT. Maybe you get really bad or you'll just miss opportunity to get good at actually being in the presence of someone in real time and speaking to them. And it's not a judgment call.

It's just, that's, that's the shift that's happening. That's, I think I just want to offer people the awareness like what you get good at, what you practice is what you get good at.

Melanie Avalon
And I'm so happy you mentioned the emojis. This is a personal, a personal passion of mine. I am overwhelming with my emojis. Like I use all the emojis all the time and it's not because I'm trying to be cute. It's because I think it's so important to communicate what I'm saying in written form.

So I like plaster it all with emojis, even like business emails. Otherwise people read it, they read it in the tone of what they think your tone is. So if that tone is different, they're gonna read it completely different.

Topaz Adizes
Totally, totally. I think it's just another way of communicating. I mean, it's just another way of doing like a physical micro gesture. You know, you could be at a dinner table, you make a joke that if you just listen to it, you think you are being rude, but actually, it's dry humor. And you get a dry humor because you make that little foray with your eyebrow, and people get, oh, you're just taking the piss. You're right.

And I think that has just been transferred into emoji form so that because you can't see the face, you can't read the micro gestures to the face or the body, or the tone of voice. So therefore, we're putting into emoji form. I think that's totally normal. I think it's just you get really good at it. But then what happens when you meet people in person? And I just think it's just different payoffs.

And I think where it's again, you're having a cocktail, you want a glass of red wine, the old 20 year old, it's just different experiences. What's the experience you want to have? What's the experience you want to have is based off the questions you're asking yourself. That'll dictate the experiences you want to have.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, which to that point, I want to thank you again and listeners. Topaz is being so kind, doing audio only.

So we're having to rely completely on just the... It's interesting that I've done, because this is episode... I don't even know. I don't know how many episodes I've done, hundreds and hundreds. And yeah, they're almost always audio only. So it's interesting that I've had that experience. Like I wonder if I have missed things because of it or if you can learn more to do it more audio-wise. I'm just really intrigued by the whole concept.

Topaz Adizes
I think it's I think it's a different experience is you become so all your attentions in your ears versus the, you know, splitting 50 50 between the visual and the ears. So you're really listening and you're really tapping into the voice and picking up nuances there, which is a different experience is definitely a podcast first type of experience.

But these days, everyone is also doing videos of their podcasts. So it seems like you're, how do you feel about that? Do you feel like you're missing that opportunity to grow your audience base because you're not doing visuals like everyone else's? Yep. Yeah, but I would I would I would do like, like, your experience is your experience, meaning like the experience you're creating on your podcast, that's your experience. And if you feel strongest with this format, then you do that format, you know, because it will change when the visual comes on. And if the visual comes on and changes the way it feels for you, and it feels for the view for the listener and it feels for the participant for the guest, and it doesn't work like don't don't do it, you know, that's my opinion, then find another format that fits your your value offering that's aligned with kind of your personal expression.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, this is a this is something that also haunts me. So it's a it's an ongoing debate in my head. I probably kind of relates to what you're talking about the very beginning about being curious about what is not safe versus I don't know, we're talking about like conflict and what's safe and what's not safe and how do you know what actually is, you know, something you should be doing. There's that word should again, but it can be hard.

It can be hard for me to know am I in doing audio only honoring this really intense what I feel preparation that I need and like format that I need to actually have the conversation or am I just scared to, you know, be on camera. So it's a I guess that was a binary simplistic question so I could probably workshop it and rework it. But wow, this has been so so amazing. It's funny, I was I was pretty nervous actually, because, like I said, the format of podcasting is asking questions. And I was like, wow, I'm actually gonna be talking to somebody who, like what he does is think about questions. So I was nervous. And I was really honored and excited to have this conversation with you.

So thank you for what you're doing. And you mentioned the beginning how, you know, you're, you've done a lot. And also, you know, you've done it over a long amount of time, and you're always doing new things. So how can people best follow your work, get the card games, like, where should they start?

Topaz Adizes
The Skindeep.com is a great place to start. You can see our content there. You can see our products there, any socials, the Skindeep, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, it's all the Skindeep and yeah, I think that's a great place to start.

And if you, I think the book is super helpful. I think the book, and I appreciate you reading it, taking the time. I think, I think the book is an incredible tool to create an experience, a deep interconnection with anyone in your life. And you can just first sit down, ask the 12 questions and then read the book to see why that conversation was so amazing so that you can have that conversation with more people.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, and really quickly to that point. So I listened to the audio book. Was that your first time recording an audio book? Yeah. How did you feel about that experience?

Topaz Adizes
I found it really challenging and I really loved it because I found myself it took three days I think three or four days and I had to get into like a meditative state where I'm reading it and trying to give nuance to it and feeling to it but you know getting through the sentences and not tripping over myself and flowing and so I don't know how I did but I love the experience because I kind of I would found myself going into flows for like an hour right you just flow in and you're trying to bring life to these words and not sound repetitive and bring emotion I love the experience I don't know how it plays because I hate listening to myself but yeah how was it for you

Melanie Avalon
Well, first of all, it was, you did a fantastic job and I love, I love when authors read their own books because you, it's their, it's their baby. So like, you know, you're hearing what they, I imagine you're hearing what they, where they want the emphasis to be and you know, how it feels to them.

For me, it's funny. They actually made me audition. This was before I had podcasts that I released my book. So they made me audition and then they only let me do the intro. They didn't let me, they didn't let me record the audio book. What?

Topaz Adizes
That's crazy, why not? They wanted someone else?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, they let me they did let me pick the narrator. But yeah, I was so I was so young. And like, looking back, I'm like, I probably when I signed that contract should have said that I could, you know, narrate the book if I wanted. But it actually turned out to be for the best, because you just mentioned being there for three days, I only got only had to go in for a couple hours.

And I still got to like have a sprinkling of the book. And then then I was done. And I really love the narrator that I picked. But um, wow, well, this has been so amazing. Topaz, thank you so much for your time for what you're doing. You're literally doing work that is, you know, changing humanities. And I, I cannot thank you enough for everything. And the last question that I asked every single guest on this show, and now I'm reflecting on if I should re reword it in anyways, but um, it's it's just because I really realized the importance of mindset. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Topaz Adizes
I have a five-year-old son and a two-year-old daughter, and I have an incredible wife, so super grateful for this period of my life that my parents are healthy, that I'm healthy, that my wife's parents are healthy and my children are healthy, so that I can fully enjoy being here for the moment without the responsibility of having to take care of someone, which will come because my parents are getting older. So I'm just grateful for this period of time where I'm seeing my kids grow and say things and engage with the world and with me, and I think that's the greatest thing I'm grateful for, and I'm also grateful to, you know, in a more present.

I just appreciate this time. We just talked for an hour and a half, and I appreciate listening to your voice, and I really appreciate that you took the time to read the book, and it means a lot that you say about the work that my team and I are doing for humanity and for people and offering value, and that means a lot because we're doing our work. We get comments here and there, but we don't always know the effect of our work, so I'm gonna share what you share with me with our team, and I know that that will give us a lot more fuel to the fire of what we're doing, so I am grateful for that, for that acknowledgement, so thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Thank you, Topaz. I cannot have enjoyed this anymore.

And like I said, I love when I have incredible guests on this show and reading their work actually changes my life. So I'm implementing these. I was already question obsessed and now it's even more fine-tuned and articulated and it's really benefiting me and so many other people.

So thank you for all that you're doing and hopefully I can see you sometime. Maybe we'll both be at some film festival or something.

Topaz Adizes
Yeah. Or Atlanta. Next time we're in Atlanta. Or LA. If you move to LA, let us know because we're in LA and Atlanta. Those are like our options coming up.

I think we're going to do another visit to Atlanta.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, really? Oh, please let me know. I would love to meet up with you guys. And I know, like, I mean, I don't know if you've been here a lot, but I have some favorite fun places to go.

So awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Topaz Adizes
Thanks, you two. Bye. Take care, Marley. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X.

Please visit melanieavalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at melanieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.