The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #325 - Carmen Emmi

TRANSCRIPT

Carmen Emmi
Just give yourself 10 minutes a day. Like, sit down and do it for 10 minutes. You'll find that you do it longer and longer each time. You just have to keep chipping away at it and know that it's not going to be perfect.

And that really helped free me up as well. I think happiness, like for me, it comes from when I have a good routine and when I'm around people I love. Make sure you give yourself the time and the space to identify what sets your heart on fire. If you're like waffling about it, it's like you're not doing the right thing. You just have to burn the bridges and just go for the thing that, you know, the thing that you want.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Okay, friends, can you hear the smile in my voice? If you've ever wanted to basically eavesdrop on what a conversation sounds like with one of my best friends in the entire world, you need today's episode. Carmen Imme is such a magical human being, he lights up my life. And I am so proud of him for directing his first feature film with an incredible A-list cast going to Sundance for it and winning awards there. And yes, the movie playing clothes is coming to theaters. I think you guys will find today's conversation super personal, super fun, super magical and super inspiring. I talked to Carmen all about his life, what it was like in the journey of having these incredible epic dreams growing up and actually becoming an award winning filmmaker. We talk about that journey of following your dreams and what you might have to let go of along the way to get it, how to deal with rejection, the concept of happiness, the importance of relationships, what you should do for 10 minutes a day, what the true experience of Hollywood is really like, and so much more. This will probably forever be one of my favorite podcast episodes I have ever recorded in my entire life.

Carmen Imme, I love you so much. Everybody, if plain clothes is playing in a theater near you, go see it now. And or when I'm assuming it will come to streaming services, watch it there. You are in for a treasure of a film. The show notes for today's episode will be at MelanieAvalon.com slash plain clothes. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, IF biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. All right, I think that's all the things. Without further ado, please enjoy this magical personal conversation with one of my favorite human beings on the entire planet, Carmen and me. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so overwhelmingly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. Friends, this is such a special conversation. I am just smiling and a little bit giddy with excitement.

Melanie Avalon
So I bring on a lot of incredible people on this show, like just legends and people doing amazing things and really truly changing people's lives. And I've personally changed my life, like literally in so many ways because I have known him for so long.

He's one of my dearest friends of all time. And on top of that, he is doing breathtakingly astonishing things with his career in the world of movies and film. His dreams are literally coming true. And I have seen this journey happen. Wait, what year is it? Okay, so it's 2025. When did we meet, Carmen?

Carmen Emmi
It's been 15 years, I think, right? 2010?

Melanie Avalon
Wild okay, so 15 years of seeing this journey where Carmen let me tell me tell listeners a little bit about your bio. So Carmen in me is a award-winning filmmaker and he has his new film playing clothes Which we're gonna talk about this because I have seen the journey from him writing it doing short films and then finally creating a feature With an incredible cast incredible casting director incredible team He made this incredible feature and then it actually premiered at Sundance Which is basically the coolest film festival in the US.

It's it's the place to be if you for independent films it's literally like the place to be and At Sundance, which I went with my sister it won the special jury award for ensemble cast So we're definitely gonna have to talk about that and then not only that so not only is Carmen killing it with this incredible film But it actually was acquired by Magnolia pictures and will be released in theaters in fall of 2025 And we are we're gonna release this to best accommodate that that schedule I think so hopefully for listeners Depending on when we release this hopefully they'll be able to like go see the movie, which would be amazing I have so much more to say but basically Carmen Friends, he's a magical human being. He is smart. He's intelligent. He's kind. He's passionate He's dedicated. He's the person who I just can think of and I just laugh and laugh and actually Carmen I've told you this before but I have a um this gratitude exercise thing you do where you're supposed to like think of a Person or something that makes you just feel grateful and have good feelings and then you capture that feeling and then you apply that Feeling to yourself and then you apply that feeling to somebody you don't like But I always use in that little exercise I think of Carmen or I think of my dead cat Misty

Carmen Emmi
R.I.P., no, R.I.P.

Melanie Avalon
RIP. Rest in peace.

I remember the first time I did that, I was like, hmm, who just makes me feel like so good? You and my dead cat. So Carmen, oh yeah, I didn't mention, so you graduated, we met at USC, so you graduated from the USC School of Cinematic Arts. I have so many questions for you, but first of all, congratulations on everything that you're doing, and thank you so much for being here.

Carmen Emmi
Oh my gosh, thank you! That intro was, I was like, over here in my socket, like, crying.

I, yeah, Melanie and I have been friends for so long, and we used to have these amazing conversations during, we were in a fraternity together, which we'll get into, but in her room just on the floor, and then I remember, like, peeking out the window and the party would be gone, but Melanie and I would still be talking, so it kind of feels like a bit of a flashback to that, which is, which is so special, so I'm so happy to be here, and I'm so proud of you too.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Yeah. Basically our college life was defined by, well defined by so many things, but yeah, like you're saying, we would have the party would be done. We'd be in whatever crazy outfits we were in.

And then we would just have like hour long conversations, which we have since continued on the phone. So we, which little fun fact for listeners, if you want to maintain, this is my, this is my like guidance for maintaining a long distance relationship over the years, like plan a phone call, an actual phone call. And then at the end of the phone call, you plan the next phone call. And then that makes sure that you keep it going.

Carmen Emmi
And we do, I feel like we do that pretty well. And if we don't, we usually follow up, but yeah, our phone calls are epic.

And I feel like they're like, I feel like they're like once a quarter, if we can say quarter or like maybe a couple of times a quarter, but it started during the pandemic, right? Like 2020, we did that walkie talkie app.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, we did we use boxer. I actually because okay, wait, I actually don't remember because we had like a dead space where we like who who we reached out to who do you remember?

Carmen Emmi
Don't but you know when it happened was when I moved to New York in 2018 and then that's when I think there was the dead space when that started and I think 2020 was when we Reconnect when we reconnected over boxer. I feel like it may have been me.

I think I reached out to you

Melanie Avalon
I honestly don't know. It's been very consistent though since then.

Carmen Emmi
I could see both things happening.

Melanie Avalon
Me too. Yeah.

Multiple possibilities here. Yeah. And that time period. And the reason I think this conversation is going to be just so motivating for listeners is Carmen, you've literally like, let us just reflect. You have accomplished like one of the biggest dreams of all dreams out there, like literally. And you did it.

Carmen Emmi
I know. It's wild. No, getting into Sundance was like, was seriously insane. Like, you know, it's one of those things you dream about when you, well, at least I dreamed about when I was writing it, I was like, you know, I want to write this, I want to get into Sundance. And I want, I want the movie to get seen. And so it's something you like, kind of low key dream about as a filmmaker, at least I did.

And I think that that kind of manifesting helped a bit maybe while I was doing it. I mean, I applied to the Sundance labs a few times with plain clothes, and which is they have this like great program where you can workshop your feature film. And I actually didn't get into that. So I applied a few times, but I like I'm a very persistent and sometimes stubborn, but in a positive way person. So I kept moving forward. And like, because I knew this was something that I had to make. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, because I remember I feel like I've seen the path and the trajectory. Okay, help me really quickly because I was trying to get this in my head.

The order of writing... Okay, tell me four things. The order of writing the short film, writing the future film, creating the short film, and creating the future film. What was the order of that?

Carmen Emmi
I wrote the script in like 2020, that was when I finished my first draft, the full screenplay. I always, I decided to, instead of making a short first, I wrote the feature first.

And then I wanted to use the short as a way for me to capture how I wanted the feature to feel. So kind of more like a proof of concept, but I basically shot the opening scene of the film. But I mean, I got the idea in 2016. That's when I got the idea for it. And then I really started writing like in earnest in like November 2019. And then I finished my first draft in March 2020.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, gotcha. Yeah, because it's just been, it's been so incredible to see this whole journey and like see you because I remember you apply.

Okay, so because I'm looking at your bio. Was this the same thing that you just mentioned and what I'm remembering? So when you place top 50 of the AMPAS Academy.

Carmen Emmi
Oh, then nickel felt, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Nickel Fellowship. That was related to Sundance, right? Is that the same thing?

Carmen Emmi
That's different. Yeah. So this was my first script. So I, I wanted to get objective feedback. And there's these great screenwriting competitions that writers can apply to. And they, and you can like, you know, in the hopes of placing in their competition, some of them have cash prizes. But why I did it was because they have feedback. They have people who like you can pay for written judge feedback, which I always did, and which I highly recommend to any aspiring screenwriter to it's, it is, it can get pricey. So it's something to plan for. It's very helpful to gather like objective opinions.

So yeah, I did nickel to get their feedback. And then I ended up placing in the top 50 of like 8,000 scripts for the first go. And then I applied two more times because I really wanted to get into the top 10. And then the third time I think they were like, no more. You can't. I just wanted to know where I fell within the top 50. You know what I mean? But it's better left. It's better than I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, because you Oh, wait, so they tell you if you're top 10. Otherwise, they don't tell you the other users top 50. So you're like, you could be you could have been 11 or you could have been 50. And you're just never gonna know.

You're well, it went to Sundance. So

Carmen Emmi
And then I made a short film, like a proof of concept from the feature, and that was in 2021. So I was getting all of this feedback on the script as I was making the short film. And there was just something about that first proof of concept, you know, that I spent a lot of money, not a lot of money, but a lot of money for a short, which was like 10,000, you know, on the short film, I'm comparative, you know, 10,000 compared to like what a lot, you know, I hear like 50 to 70,000 for short film budget sometimes, which is, it's just so much money. So and 10k is a lot.

But I, I like took out a loan to do that, because I was like, I have to, you know, I have to do this. And I made it. And I was just remembered thinking that I, it was a really good directing exercise, because I was I hadn't really directed a ton since we noticed a lot of things that I would have done differently. But I was like, I can't like fund another short film. So I just I made another proof of concept that was super bare bones. It was basically like with a DSLR that I owned, like not a lot of crew, it was just me and the actors. And I used a high camcorder from when I was a kid. And so I kind of used it as a bit of an experiment. And that ended up really informing like the style of the film like that, the proof of concept that cost me $200 as opposed to the proof of concept that cost me $10,000. It's just interesting how things work out like that, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, so many questions from that. Well, first of all, I actually never asked you this. Did any of the original cast from your shorts come to Sundance and see it?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, Sam, this is a this is a great story. Actually, Sam Brownstein is in all iterations of plainclothes. He when I when I was making the first short film, so basically for those at home, like plainclothes is about an undercover police officer whose job is to lure and arrest men who are cruising or aka hooking up in a public restroom. And it's about what happens when he falls in love with someone that he's supposed to arrest and his internal struggle with that.

And it's set in the 90s. I shot it in my hometown, I shot all of the proof of concepts in my hometown in Syracuse, New York. And when I was going to shoot the first proof of concept, I needed someone to play the love interest. And so I reached out to the Syracuse University Drama Department, because they have an MFA for acting and they have a BFA, I believe. So I was like, just send it out, just send out this casting notice to everyone. Because, you know, I want to work with a student who's like eager to help out on a short. And only one person responded to the casting call out of like, I think thousands. And it was really Sam. And Sam came to Sundance. Sam was like with us at Sundance. And it's just like, it's so cool, because I like I love that about him. He was like, I think the topic resonated with him. But like, he, he answered this random casting call that was, you know, that was going through their drama school. And I'm so thankful he did, because I love collaborating with him. And I'll want to work with him forever. But yeah, he was on every single proof of concept that I did. And then he opens the film, he's the guy that Lucas, the main character arrests in the bathroom in the beginning.

Melanie Avalon
Right. You're right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. That's such a great story.

Carmen Emmi
He's such a hard worker. And he's just so incredible on set. And it's just as a person, I'm really lucky to be friends with them, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing. Did you just did you just offer him the role? Did you have him audition for it?

Carmen Emmi
Oh, I offered him. Well, he, you know, he may have put himself on tape for everyone. Yeah, for everyone. But it was in my I always knew it would be him, you know, so I, but yeah, I, oh my gosh, I know, putting yourself on tape is just such a is so intense.

And that I just, um, yeah, I loved casting so much. But seeing all the tapes and like, just the amount of work that I knew, like, to even like, set up the setup that they, you know, had set up to be on tape, it just like meant a lot to me, but it also like made me feel so, you know, if I didn't go with them, you know, sad, and it's just, it was tough, it was really tough, but I saw a lot of talented people.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, to that point. So I'm actually curious because I have my perspective of this journey that you had. And I know for me, like for me, the highlight moments where I was like dying for things that were happening for you, I'm curious how they line up with your highlight moments.

So I know for me, for example, one of the highlight moments was when you got your casting director for the film. Oh, and we haven't even mentioned the cast yet. You have a really epic cast. Should we mention them now? Including Tom Blythe, who people might know from The Hunger Games, no big deal as the lead in your first feature. Do you want to talk about the cast or the casting director? Or yeah, so who are the main cast, the main roles?

Carmen Emmi
This is Tom Blythe. Tom Blythe plays Lucas. He plays the undercover police officer.

Melanie Avalon
He's so beautiful.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, he's just such a wonderful actor, like beautiful. And that role is really special to me because it's, you know, it's a bit this is a very personal story.

My it covers a lot of my own personal experiences. But my brother's a police, my brother was a police officer when I was writing this film. So a lot of like his, you know, a lot of my brother is in the character to a lot of like people that I love are in Lucas. So Tom, playing him, like, I feel like his performance just exceeded my wildest dreams. And so did have honestly everyone like Russell Tovey, who's just a legend. He plays Andrew, the love interest Maria Dizzia plays Lucas's mom, she's from Orange is the New Black and she was on Agathol long recently.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, she's in my old ass. I was going to see that. I'm looking at the I have the bio right in front of me. Oh, my gosh. I'll have to I want to watch that.

Carmen Emmi
She's wonderful. Oh my god, I love Maria is just literally an angel.

And then there's Christian Cook, who's also from the UK. A lot of British actors in this. Russell Tom and Christian are all British. So Christian Cook, who's also from the UK. He's also in the film. And he was in a show recently called Rematch, which he was amazing in.

Amy Forsyth plays Lucas's ex-girlfriend Emily. She was actually in this Broadway show recently called Stereophonic. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but she was.

Melanie Avalon
No, wait, what's it called?

Carmen Emmi
stereophonic, amazing music. And she was amazing in it.

Actually, I found out I got into Sundance when I was watching her perform, which was kind of an out of body experience. But Alessandra, Ford Bellage, who we went to film school with is Uncle Paul's girlfriend. Uncle Paul is played by Gabe Fazio, who's wonderful as well. Darius Frazier is Jeff. And then John Bedford Lloyd plays Lieutenant Sollers. And yeah, it's just, it was an incredible, incredible journey. But yeah, Bernie Telsey from the Telsey Company cast the project along with Adam Caldwell and Amelia McCarthy. So the Telsey companies, they cast shows like Wicked and Hamilton and Renn. And they cast the movie version of Wicked. And it's a legendary company. And they were just so incredible to work with. So that was, yeah, that was a highlight for me for sure, to get, to get to work with Bernie and his team.

Melanie Avalon
I remember when you found out about Bernie and I remember looking over the casting things that he had done and I was dumbfounded, in shock. Like you said, Wicked, he did Little Mermaid, right?

He did the live action Little Mermaid. And Mean Girls, the musical, which was coming out I think right after, very soon thereafter because I remember I went and saw it and I waited to see his name in the credits.

Carmen Emmi
I know it was really so many like all these pinch me moments, honestly, like when I would go on IMDB and like, look up, Bernie and like the two projects that he had in production was like wicked part one and playing clothes and I was like, what?

Melanie Avalon
So surreal, I can't even.

Carmen Emmi
It's so surreal. It's so surreal.

And it's just, I mean, I, my producers on the project were just incredible. So, you know, to even get the chance to meet with Bernie, our producer, Eric Podwall, he had worked with Bernie before, knew him. And so he sent him the script. And it's just, it was such a blessing, yeah, to get to work with him.

Melanie Avalon
I actually have a question for you that I have not asked you before. I don't know if I've even thought about it before, but I'm thinking about it now. Did you feel, because there's so much to tackle here with, you know, you're directing your first film and your first feature film, which side note, I don't know if this was the first text you sent me after you started filming, but in my mind, it was the first text. I just remember me saying something to the effect of like, how's it going? And you saying something to the effect of like, I'm real, like I know nothing about directing or like, this is so hard. I have that memory.

I should look up what you actually said to not paraphrase. Were you at all intimidated by, or how did you feel? I don't want to ask a leading question. How did you feel having such a legendary, epic casting director? So clearly, clearly, you know, he's going to bring you these incredible actors and he's known for casting. So he's known for good casting. Did that add like an extra layer of pressure to you directing the actors at all, or did you not really think about that?

Carmen Emmi
No, I mean, I tried not to think about it too much. I, it was, we had just, we had so much, I don't think I even had time to really be nervous about that because there was so, we didn't have a lot of prep time.

We had like a couple months or something to cast this thing, maybe even less. And so I worked a lot with Adam and Amelia and who Adam did, he was doing Kiss of the Spider Woman I think at the same time, which I didn't know, but I found out he was casting, cause I found out he was the casting director on Kiss of the Spider Woman. And I was like, whoa, that must've been so intense to be casting both of these. I worked with them and we just had so much to do. Like it's such a big cast, you know, there's so many people. So we kind of just were diving in and it was just like a conversation about the roles and how I saw them. I gave them a list of people who I envisioned for the roles as I was writing, but things changed during casting. Like even the script changes a little bit. It's a very like fluid process, but yeah, Bernie's very humble and down to earth. So I never felt, you know, intimidated. He also liked the script. So I felt like we kind of had this, there was like a bit of, there's like a mutual respect there, I guess. I don't know. Does that make sense? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so actually casting question as well from that. Because I remember one of the things I remember talking to you through the whole process was originally, you wanted to have everybody in the cast be LGBTQ plus, yeah.

How did you feel like trying to achieve that and then not being directly you know, you were not the casting director? How? What was that like?

Carmen Emmi
Well, I think we all kind of had all the casting team and I both had the goal of, you know, we wanted to see as many queer people for the roles as possible, especially for the people who were playing queer roles. So that was always our goal.

And then, you know, as we saw people, it was in the cash just kind of comes to life. And there's so many things that goes into casting a movie besides, unfortunately, being right for the role, you know, that was always I kind of always made sure I was casting the person who was truly right for the role, but other things come up, like, you know, what have they been in before? And would it bring people to see this movie? And it's just a lot of that, but I always try to. And I did actually, and I can honestly say I cast the people who I felt were the best for the role who I would choose any way. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, and clearly it worked because you literally won the cast award at Sundance. So that means that for that year, the creme de la creme of people judging film think that your film, out of all the films made independently, that it was the best, you know, experience from the actors.

Isn't that wild? Can we reflect?

Carmen Emmi
I mean, it was just amazing, the cast is so, the cast is so wonderful. Like we shot for 18 days, which is like wild, which I never want to do again. Like I'm going to need at least, well, Vanessa, who, you know, Vanessa, our friend from film school, she was a producer on the project. She reminds me that we shot like a little bit of a 19th day with a skeleton crew. But like really it was truly an 18 day experience.

It's just so much, it's so fast to make a movie. And so I knew I had to find like theater actors who were trained in theater was really important to me. So almost all of the actors have theater background. And I feel like you can feel it. And I felt it when they came to set because they were so prepared and we didn't have a lot of rehearsal time. So like for Russell, like I would rewrite a scene on a Sunday for like a Tuesday shoot or something. Like I, you know, it happened really fast. And like I was I kind of was like, you know, I didn't expect the actors to come memorize because it's so last minute. You know, I figured that we would just we would take time on set. And both Tom and Russell for like this rewrite that I did in a scene in a green in the greenhouse, they came like just ready to shoot. Like it was it was really unbelievable. Like they are truly special, talented like people. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
It's wild. Did you have a lot of improv on the set? Like did you let them go like improv much or was it mostly by the lines exactly?

Carmen Emmi
It was mostly by the lines, by the book, yeah. And that was another reason why I wanted to work with theater actors because the script in theater, as you know, is like the Bible.

Whereas on film, which is cool, a lot of times for films, especially comedies, they'll improvise, which breathes new life into it. And I had a directing professor who really encouraged improvisation during rehearsals. And we were able to do that a little bit and I could tweak the script a little bit, but we just didn't have a lot of time. But that being said, like Tom and I, especially because he's in like every frame of the movie, sometimes we altered what he would say to make it feel a little bit more right for Lucas that we ended up bringing to life, you know? But it was very few and far between, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I will say his performance. So like I was saying, I got to go to Sundance, my first time going to Sundance, and I got to see your film. It was, can I just say.

Carmen Emmi
Wait, sorry. We'll get back to Tom's performance, because he is, I mean, we could talk for Tom, to talk about Tom for like two hours.

But like, when I was at Sundance, it was like, so we premiered at this place called the Ray Theater, which is converted from like an old sporting goods store, like to give people a visual, but the Ray has incredible sound. So I was super excited to premiere in the Ray. And it's like a 500 seat theater, I believe. And we were Kim Yutani, who is the director of programming at Sundance, like introduced me in the film, which is just like, that doesn't even feel like a real sentence to say out loud, because Kim is such a legend. And she had these beautiful things to say about me. And I could like feel like in the corner of my eye, I just like felt like someone, I was like, someone I know is nearby, and I look and Melanie was sitting in like the front row, stunning, with Danielle also stunning her sister. And I remember like, looking like out of the corner of my eye, and Melanie, I could just see her smiling. And I like, I had this like wave of like, calm, like come over me. And was like, her words were so like, you know, beautiful. And I mean, I'm very like, I'm an anxious person. And I'm like, extroverted, but I'm very introverted too. So like, hearing compliments is really hard for me, especially in front of like 500 people. But seeing Melanie in the front row was like, I was like, Oh my god, I can act I'll be able to speak in front of, in front of this crowd. And actually, like what I do is I just now when I'm in front of groups of people, I just imagine, like, when I was at Sundance, and I could see like Melanie, and then my parents and my brother, my aunt, Sandy, it was just, and I just imagine.

Melanie Avalon
I think channel that moment.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, people that I'm like really close to. It's for like a living room.

And then that way I'm like, I ease my kind of like performance anxiety. If you know, but it was such a special moment that you were there. That was like, it was just, like, what a dream. Like, I'm such, I'm so lucky. So many people from the crew came out to support as well. It was just so magical.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, this is crazy. I didn't know, I didn't know like that story from your perspective. And it was such a moment for me as well.

So yeah, because we had not seen each other in person since well, since I moved back to LA, like, or sorry, moved back to Atlanta the first time, right? So like 20, I think

Carmen Emmi
2016.

Melanie Avalon
No, I don't think I think earlier. Yeah, because I came back I came back here in 2014. So yeah, probably it would have been like, because you were you were one of the last people that I saw before I moved back. So it had been like a debt, literally a decade from seeing you in person.

And so, okay, well, first of all, I'm as well, I don't know if listeners know this, but they know this if they follow my Instagram, I'm very intense about like, I feel the front row for everything. So I was intense about that. But also, and Danielle and I, my sister, we were very much intent on making sure we could go to the after party. And we didn't know because we knew that the after party was like a limited capacity situation. So we were like, we're gonna sit right by the exit, so that we can, like, leave at the end very quickly. So that ended up being the seat, right where you were walking in. And I just remember, I remember, I remember being so proud because you walked in, you were like in the in the wings because the film was being introduced. And you were surrounded by like the most intense posse of people. Like, oh my gosh, he's so important.

Carmen Emmi
And we were documenting the experience. The Sundance was documenting the experience, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and then just seeing you was so amazing and hearing it introduced and then, yeah, it was just such a moment. I'm so happy thinking about it.

Which, by the way, I can't wait for it to come out in theaters because I told you this, right? We left right before the last scene, did I tell you that?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I know. And it's okay. I know, but we had you had to because like,

Melanie Avalon
which is like the most epic scene of the movie.

Carmen Emmi
It's, yeah, it's literally like, I think my, it's hard to pick a favorite.

Melanie Avalon
We'd love to go to the party to clarify.

Carmen Emmi
The end scene was like, the end scene is really is, I thought they really, the actors just killed it. Yeah, no, but you had to get to the after party. We wouldn't have spent, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I was like, I must be at the after party and like, hang out with Carmen and all the people. So that's why we left.

But that's why not the only reason but do you realize I can go see it in theaters and I can see the ending. It's gonna be such a moment.

Carmen Emmi
I know. I know. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited.

September 19th comes out and in New York and LA and then we're going to add them. They'll add it's a limited release and then they'll add more theaters after after that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, we should talk because I need to figure out maybe okay. Wait, should I come to New York for that? Oh my god

Carmen Emmi
Oh my gosh. Melanie, guess what I'm seeing in New York in the beginning of September? Give me a hint. Box 665.

Phantom. Yeah, there's this like immersive version of Phantom coming to New York City called Masquerade. And you like walk into sleep no more. I don't know if you've ever seen sleep no more. No. It's like they basically get like this huge building and then they design it, you know, I think it's going to be like Paris Opera House vibes. And then you walk, you have to dress up and you go to this immersive experience where they take you through the Phantom of the Opera, I assume. Or it's like a retelling of Phantom of the Opera. It's, it's Angela Weber's company. So it's like, it's kind of not a revival, but it's, it's of the Phantom world, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay, so many things. A, I did hear it's coming back.

Carmen Emmi
I think it's in this form.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, this is the coming back? I heard it was coming back back like back back

Carmen Emmi
Who isn't that fat?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, it's the same thing, but it's immersive.

Carmen Emmi
It's yeah, it's like it's gonna be in New York City and it's like an immersive production. Yeah, apparently you get to go on the roof.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, so you're having to like walk during the show?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, it's an immersive show. You walk around, it's incredible.

When I saw Sleep No More, that was like a Hitchcock film meets like I think Macbeth is the Shakespeare show that they were doing or not. I think that one's I don't know which one it was to be honest, but I loved it. Anyways, yeah, you should definitely come to the New York premiere in September, we're gonna be at the IFC Center in New York City.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, we should talk after this and figure out these details because I must come wait and there's an LA premiere It's good. When is that gonna be?

Carmen Emmi
I don't know about the LA premiere. I think we're gonna have like an LA screening, but I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So we'll talk. We will talk. We're back. Um, yeah.

So, so basically the whole experience was just really, really surreal. So amazing to briefly wrap up a bow on the acting and the Tom Blythe stuff. So I remember walking away from it. I think one of the first things that Danielle and I were talking about, just like analyzing the film was so much of the film is not, it's in what's not even said. Like he, he does so much without saying anything, you know, it's like the reactions and the moments and what was it like? And I mentioned, I mentioned earlier that you were saying that, you know, the directing experience was, you know, really intense. What was it like having an idea of what I imagine you would think the scene would be and then having the actor present it. And so how did you, was what they presented, did it usually match what you were thinking? Did you sometimes have to like pull them into what you were thinking or like abandon what you were thinking for what they were thinking? What was just like the experience of working with these incredible actors on your first feature and, you know, pulling out these amazing performances.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I mean, I think it was a lot of, I did a lot of directing in the script, I will say. So in the stage direction, I would write things that I if, you know, I was just writing it as a screenwriter, I wouldn't write. Like, for example, if a character goes to speak, I would put in parentheses, as if she said it 100 times, you know, which is not something a writer would typically put in, or I would even get even more emotional with it. Like, say things like, he winces, like he thinks, like he winces, like he knows the answer, but got it wrong, or something. And like, that's also not something that you wouldn't direct like that in the text. So I think that them coming into the rehearsals with that or to the shoot with that was helpful.

And then it was really like we had a space, and we like lightly blocked it together. And we went through it that way, we didn't have we have like, you know, 40 minutes to an hour in the morning to really rehearse the scene. And then we kind of had to just do it. So I had to come prepared. But no, they, I think that since we kind of built it together in blocking, it kind of everything kind of naturally flowed. And I mean, there was a ton of onset discoveries. Tom brought so much to the role, like, Lucas has this scratching thing, this scratching tick that he does. And that was from Tom. And that was just cool that we got to keep it in the film, in the film, it like, had a, I would then I would be like, Oh my god, this is a perfect moment for you to scratch, you know, created a week one, and I brought it up on week four. And it's just, I don't know, I say it's like, it's very special, the process of working with actors. And it's, it felt very free and fluid. But yeah, it's, I think there are certain things are different for sure. But it's what it's, you know, what I learned from this process is like, you make the film, I think this applies to like everything. It's like you make the film that you were supposed to make, you know, you have to like show up for yourself and prep and you, and you have to do the work. But like, at the end of the day, it's not going to be exactly what you imagined. And like, I think when you have this, when you take this approach, like, I think sometimes it ends up being better than what you imagined, which was the case for me at least. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that is such a quotable, epic thing, like for inspiration. So basically the perfect blend of like planning and having an idea, but then also being open to what happens and then what happens is, you know, the perfect result of that and not being wedded to it.

Carmen Emmi
Exactly. And I think that that's like a difference between theater and film, right? It's like with film, it's like it's constantly changing. Whereas theater, it's like you prep, prep, prep, rehearse. And then once it goes on Broadway, it's like locked, you know, and it's people honor that staging and everything, which is like kind of why Broadway is so special to me because those shows could be like time capsules.

Like when Phantom was on Broadway a few years ago, like that was the original 80s production just with, you know, new actors. So there's a beauty to that. But what I, that's what I love about film is how it's constantly changing or like during, you know, during the process. I mean, Steve L. Brettsey, when we were in 290 together,

Melanie Avalon
Mm. Hashtag.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, he was like a directing professor. He said, you prep for prep, and then you throw it all out when you get on set. And I, I have taken that with me.

But I will say that I do keep some of my prep paperwork with me. Like, I don't throw it all out. But I do, I do mostly throw it out. And I, because it's in me, you know what I mean? And then you can kind of be free in the moment to explore with people who are coming with a fresh perspective while still like honoring what you initially wanted to to do.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, Carmen, so two thoughts. One, did he say that in class, that prep, prep, prep, throw it out thing? Okay. I don't know where I was. That's like, that's like a really good thing.

Carmen Emmi
Usually looking at me like when he said it too, which is like why it stuck with me

Melanie Avalon
You remember me looking at you during that?

Carmen Emmi
Well, I remember him looking at me.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. Okay, so to clarify for listeners, we, Carmen and I met, we should say how we met.

Oh my goodness. So we, I'm trying to remember now the first like conversation we had. So at USC film school, there is the production course and there's, or yeah, the production like major, but there are these courses you take for it and 290 is the first one where you do these films and fun fact into 90 is where I met Carmen during which time Carmen said, you know what I'm going to say, right?

Carmen Emmi
It was my first film at USC.

Melanie Avalon
his first film. Okay, so basically we as students create four films over the course of the semester and we all made our first film and Carmen's was really amazing and epic.

It had this one moment, this transition where he transitioned from like this girl running in front of, I don't know how in the world you figured out to do this, but she was running in front of like something that made lines.

Carmen Emmi
was a fence. It was like, yeah, no, it was like it was a chain linked fence. She was on the other side of the fence. I was on the other side of the fence shooting through the fence at her. And she was walking quickly.

And I was like, and I was trailing along with her on the side kind of parallel to her and the fence was between us. So it created this effect of like, fast move, which I use in plain clothes, by the way, like that kind of similar vibe. Yeah, you

Melanie Avalon
You do. That first film, the 290, was like total vibes of playing clothes.

Carmen Emmi
but the chain fence, I was zooming in on her, so the chain fence kind of.

Melanie Avalon
transitions to a fan.

Carmen Emmi
It transitions to a moving fan, and I'm very proud of that. But that was my first time doing that.

Melanie Avalon
So to clarify, A, that image, literally I can see it in my mind right now, Carmen, it seared in my mind. It was beautiful.

It was like the most epic transition I've ever seen. So the film was amazing. And then after they were asking us questions and literally, I don't know what you said, you were like, oh, it's like my first film. And my mind was blown. I was like, oh, my gosh, he's never made a film before. And he like created this.

Carmen Emmi
I remember I said something like, like, you've done this before. And I remember thinking like, no, because

Melanie Avalon
haven't done because you hadn't done that specific transition

Carmen Emmi
that's a specific transition but that specific like well that whole thing where it was like a completely I think it was a silent film like I it was all there was no dialogue

Melanie Avalon
Yes, well, come to find out, Carmen's been making his little film since he was a kid. Oh, man, I can see you.

Carmen Emmi
We didn't meet in that room, though. We didn't meet in that room.

We met in the other room. We met in a room that wasn't our charity room, a small room. And I remember being super intimidated because by everyone, because it was my first day, but especially by you. I was so intimidated.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so look for context for listeners. I don't know why they had us meeting in this because how many people were in the class like 20?

Carmen Emmi
It was a robust class. You mean, I think it was a robust. It was a robust class.

Melanie Avalon
So what does that equate, 20 people, 25, 30?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I mean, yeah, for the room that we were in, it was very small, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm trying to like give a picture of how many people were in our class, maybe like 20. I don't know if there was 30. There kind of been 30. It was like 20. But we they put us in this like

Carmen Emmi
room. It was probably last month, but it was like 15.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, as yeah, 20 is probably like the cap of what we you know what I have, I literally have like pictures of

Carmen Emmi
Because I remember there was like only like four or five people on the row across from me and then I would have five people in my room and there'd be five people on the other one so that's like fifteen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that tracks probably like teen. Yeah.

Carmen Emmi
Not from that robust.

Melanie Avalon
not a robust number but robust for the room we were in and that the ratio of men to women was is that the way the ratio is at the USC film school in general do you know because there were four girls

Carmen Emmi
Oh, I think there, when we were there, the I remember the admission said that it was like, out of the 50 applicants, there's 25 men, 25 women who got it 20. That's what they said in 2010.

I that applied or got in had gotten it. I think that I think that it was an it was a 50 50 gender split for 2010. Obviously, now, you know, I don't, I don't think they would do it that way. Now, you know, with concert. Yeah, so many other

Melanie Avalon
Well, you know, you know my story about what I put on my application, right?

Carmen Emmi
Wait, I remember you telling me what you wrote about.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I remember, so for clarification, Carmen was in the more elite production track. I was critical studies.

Carmen Emmi
I got rejected. I got rejected, by the way.

Oh, you did? Yeah, like, like I said it earlier, I'm very persistent. I okay, I do want to hear about your application, but I got rejected from USC when I first applied to film school. And then I reapplied and got in.

And they sent me they didn't send me an acceptance letter, because it got lost in the mail. So I got these emails like, you know, look, I'm signing up. Don't like it was like, or some email like that. And I was like, I was like, well, I didn't get a rejection. Did I get in? And then Oh, my God, that's why I was in Tuscany that year, because like, I missed housing, I missed everything.

Melanie Avalon
Tuscany like the housing not the

Carmen Emmi
Right, right, yeah. Could you imagine? I'm a TSC film school in this Tuscany campus. No, Tuscany was a building, a dorm. Well, not a dorm, it was kind of like a resort style.

Melanie Avalon
What was it? We're not sure.

Carmen Emmi
But they had a Chick-fil-A on the bottom and a coffee bean and tea leaf for, so for a boy from New York, I was like, or Syracuse, New York. I was like, this is lit.

Yeah, I didn't know I got in. And so I flew, I had my dad and I flew to California because I wanted to make sure I got in. I flew to their admissions office and I had them print me out an acceptance letter because I was like, I need to know if I got it, like, actually. And so they printed it out and my dad was like, who knew I got in the whole time? He was just like, are you happy?

Melanie Avalon
That is wild.

Carmen Emmi
But no, production was super hard to get into. And yeah, but Critical Studies was also, I mean, I meet so many people who study Critical Studies who are making films now, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Well, so actually, wait to the okay, so I have a kind of similar story, not the same, but I applied to USC through the early entrance program. So I applied as a when I was a sophomore in high school, I applied. And then I got in to go after my junior year of high school. And what's funny is I didn't realize that so like when you're like applying to the early entrance program, you write down the major that you want to be. So I put theater, and I put film. And I didn't realize that you're supposed you have to like separately apply to the schools, in addition to like your general application. So for whatever reason, the theater school just like let me in without the separate application, which is kind of crazy. So they let me in the film school was like, they like rejected me because they were like, you didn't apply, like, no, you can't get in. So I got I basically got like, I just like slipped into theater, like the school theater, which I should not have been able to do. And then I got a rejection letter from the film school without actually applying.

So then all freshman year, I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to get into the film school. And it was so stressful. So I was applying to production and critical studies. I did not get into production. I thought I would, but I did not. But I did get into critical studies. And it actually turned out really well that and that's not a really pretentious exercise that I thought I would, but I don't know, I felt like I had a good, a good application. But in any case, it actually worked out really well, because in order to do like a double, a double major with the theater and the critical studies, it actually worked really well. So I was so grateful.

Carmen Emmi
all my sets. You were in all my sets.

So you were basically production honestly. I have so many like I have a life memories folder on my desktop that I just like add screenshots to and there's one in there from you on the set of my 310.

Melanie Avalon
Is it me holding the thing?

Carmen Emmi
Like, yeah, you were holding the slate because you were the second.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, the slate, okay.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, which is very important.

Melanie Avalon
I can see that picture on my head because I have two memories of like me on sets for you. I have me like holding the slate during that was the one at the place where like it was far away. We had to drive in the morning, right?

Oh, was it there? No. Where was that? Oh, yeah. Was it there? That place? Remember? Like kind of near Disney?

Carmen Emmi
Yes, by Disney. Yep, that was for the Grift, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Was that the slate picture?

Carmen Emmi
That was the four. No, no, this is that I'm thinking for three 10. That was 480. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Thank you so much for coming. I'm like realizing that was like 6am on a weekend and we were in college and you're like this. Like you're such a good friend. Like that is

Melanie Avalon
I'm like forever the like, 10, like the supporter who's like there who can like kind of do the stuff but like, is more there for like the vibes. Oh my goodness, wait, can we tell the story about Beth and beyond?

Carmen Emmi
I feel like you low key came because we went we would go to downtown disney after I feel like we

Melanie Avalon
Did we go out?

Carmen Emmi
I went to Disney at some point in time and I thought it was during that production, but what happened to Bath and Body Works?

Melanie Avalon
Well, also really quickly, the other like memory I have.

Carmen Emmi
Thanks for watching!

Melanie Avalon
You know the story.

Carmen Emmi
Yes, you were talking about the green situation from 2-9.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, before that. So the other memory picture I have is like me holding, being outside, holding like a flag, holding something to like shield the lighting.

I had this like image and it was during, it was the one with like the laundry.

Carmen Emmi
Yes, that's the picture I'm talking about by Labarca, by Labarca.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, Bed Bath and Beyond Story. So for, okay, there's so many things here.

So for that same class, the 290, where we're doing, it's a production class, that's where I met Carmen. You make three films on your own, right? And then the fourth one you make together, was that? And so our group film at the end, Carmen was the DP, Director of Photography. I was product, what was I, production, I was set design.

Carmen Emmi
You're a production designer.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Carmen Emmi
with a production designer, yes, and I was also like on the production design team, like I worked under you and I also worked with you, it was crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and then Stephen Schockett was producer, Jeff Toy was director.

Carmen Emmi
Logan wrote it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay.

Carmen Emmi
Love Logan. Shout out to Logan.

Melanie Avalon
Shout out to Logan.

Carmen Emmi
I, yeah, no, I love, I love, oh my god, that whole team was so fun. Who did, and Charles did sound? Remember Charles? Yes. I, I loved Charles in a while. I, we talked on Facebook a little bit.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I actually, I talked to Logan recently, I think on Instagram. I might be making this up. I feel like I did.

Carmen Emmi
We're not getting the full context of like the situation we were in. Listeners, we were in the Vagabond Inn, which was right outside of University campus, which is a vibe for context.

It's where in Thelma and Louise, Thelma or Louise, I can't remember which one, has an evening with Brad Pitt in the Vagabond.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, stop. I didn't know that. What? Did I know that then?

Carmen Emmi
that specific maggabond that we were shooting in. So basically that one. That one? Yeah, that location, not that room, but that location, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
What? Did they tell us? Wait, I didn't.

Carmen Emmi
What I didn't shot in the lobby to know they did tell they did tell us that was like part of like the thing and they were like so all the students they had at the time USC had a deal with the vagabond where they we could like shoot in their rooms but we only got like you know four hours or something wild like that.

Melanie Avalon
Do you think these will do that?

Carmen Emmi
I hope so because I thought that was the best group project I've ever done in my life.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I would agree.

Carmen Emmi
because we were all in it together and like actually we all had to actually do it. We're not like most group projects where, I don't know if you were this person, but I felt like I was always making the presentation at the end.

Were you or no?

Melanie Avalon
Like I was doing all the things.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
And it's like, you don't know if it's because you're kind of a control freak and you're like mandating that versus you're just have to because people are lazy. But yes.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, but that was a fun group. I hope they still do it.

But yeah, no, we so we were in this motel in LA, shooting these short films, and we had really great actors in ours. Remember Adam and Lily, I think.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I still have. I remember like we bought this amazing dress and Lily wanted it and I kept it.

Carmen Emmi
Whoa. I forgot about that. But that was a good point. You work road as well and production design?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I guess so, I think so, which brings us to the story.

Carmen Emmi
We didn't see much of the world sadly because of my extreme close-ups.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, exactly. So the story is and I have like another story about the bag one too, but so basically I'm gonna no i'll i'll tell a i'll tell a clipped version.

Okay, so Um in any case I was production designer and we were doing a I don't even know what it was. It was like what era was it 19? Do we know?

Carmen Emmi
We were in the 20s, we were in the 20s, I don't know where, and I was in the 20s immersed.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. So the goal was to turn this vagabond motel in 2011, 10, like 1920s. So a few things, one, Carmen and I, I remember we went to Bed Bath and Beyond and we bought everything, like everything we could ever want. I feel like it was a lot of money on the card.

I just remember like buying it all and thinking in my head, we're going to be returning all of this. I think we bought like $800 worth of stuff at Bed Bath and Beyond.

Carmen Emmi
I think it was close to a thousand. We were scared.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So we bottle the things, then we outfitted the room, we made it look like epic, in my opinion.

And then Carmen, Carmen as the director of photography, literally every shot is like an insane close up. And you saw none of my beautiful production design, which I then had to return to put back in the odds.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I remember at one point we didn't even see the bed. We were like, why do we not see the bed?

Melanie Avalon
Ah, so that's my story about Bed Bath and Beyond. Yeah, and then later I actually, for Carmen's birthday, I threw him a surprise birthday party and I rented, I say rented, I rented, I rented?

Do you rent hotel rooms? I guess so. You rented a hotel room. I rented, I rented a hotel room and I threw a surprise birthday party and we had a party at the Vagabond.

Carmen Emmi
for my 21st.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and I surprised you for it, right?

Carmen Emmi
I was surprised. Yes, I was especially surprised because you showed up.

Melanie Avalon
Like, how did I get you there?

Carmen Emmi
I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
I don't have that that that part of the memory is like gone from my head.

Carmen Emmi
I think you drove me and I remember you had a wig, a brown wig.

Melanie Avalon
I did. For reasons we will not share. I was wearing a brownie.

Carmen Emmi
But you looked amazing in it, you looked amazing in it.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, I don't think I did really though. I don't think I I needed a different way

Carmen Emmi
It was very little Italian. I don't know why. I'm Italian.

Melanie Avalon
We had them. Okay, so my two follow up. Okay, so I have three vagabond moments. One was the filming the film, the grift. Which did we win? I don't think so. We did not.

Carmen Emmi
Wait, we didn't know we didn't film the Griffey films. The title was something else. Logan's script was called a grim situation.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yes. A grim situation. My bad. Yes.

Carmen Emmi
We, we.

Melanie Avalon
I'm pretty sure we did not win. I just I like I have a feeling like a memory that we didn't win. So

Carmen Emmi
Like the audience award or something?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know like who's judging I don't know if there was an award we didn't win though I'm pretty sure

Carmen Emmi
I had fun, completely color corrected it until like three in the morning.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, color correcting.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I'll be color corrected it until like three in the morning

Melanie Avalon
In any case, it was an experience.

So that was Vagabond Experience 1.

Vagabond Experience 2 was I threw the surprise birthday party for Carmen, which was very epic.

At the end, it was just me and you left in the hotel room.

Carmen Emmi
and no subway.

Melanie Avalon
and no subway. Yeah, I will just share.

We went and like at one point, we went and got subway. Carmen was out like hanging with friends and I was like by myself with the subway and I was doing a low carb diet at the time. So I ate all the meat from all the sandwiches and Carmen came back and I had his sandwich for him, but it had like I ate all the meat in it.

Carmen Emmi
No, you know me, but so I would I would do it again. I would do it all again. It was such a good

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And then we had to clean it up the next day. Remember?

Carmen Emmi
Oh my God, he has to be sleep there to be like we did. We did. Oh my God. That's so fun.

Melanie Avalon
And then my third Vagabond memory, I don't know if I told you this, so I think it was in between either between sophomore, it was when we were living in the fraternity house. So junior year?

Carmen Emmi
You were living, I never lived there, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. So I think it was a summer between my junior and, yes, between my junior and sophomore year. And I was having to move all my stuff from like one location to another location. I don't even remember what, but I was so overwhelmed. I was freaking out. I was really stressed.

My mom was like, I'll just like buy you like a hotel room and you can go just like take a nap. And she bought me a room at the Vagabond. And I literally went to the Vagabond and like took a nap and a shower.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, it's helpful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so those are my memories.

Carmen Emmi
I didn't know that about the vagabond in you. Which one? The third one? The third one. Yeah, I know it was about the third one.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was like it was really, it was like surreal to have a like a reservation there as a an actual guest.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, it's so dull.

Melanie Avalon
But I never told, okay, so to wrap up the story about how I applied to film school, I knew that there was a, I knew they wanted women. Like, I knew it was in my favor to emphasize being a girl because of the ratio.

So the opening sentence to my application to the USC film school was something to the effect of, I'm paraphrasing, it's actually, I could like pull it out, but it's few things that a female values, wait, less than a good hair day. That said, I would give up all of my good hair days for entrance into the USC School of Cinematic Arts. That was my opening line, literally. And I got in.

Carmen Emmi
And you got into critical studies, right? Yeah. That's amazing. Good that essay.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. I have no idea what the rest of it said, but

Carmen Emmi
Mine was about the airport.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, what aspect of the airport?

Carmen Emmi
and just watching people, like watching people in height.

Melanie Avalon
Do you still do that?

Carmen Emmi
if i'm early enough i feel like i i'm always living on a prayer when i get to the airport like in terms of time

Melanie Avalon
Oh, me too, me too.

Carmen Emmi
No, but I do. I do.

I do, actually, because the airports, everyone is in such like a high, a lot of times in a heightened state. So if like people are coming back and you see people greet each other who maybe haven't seen each other for years or months, or, you know, that's always really cool to watch. I feel like I'm watching like love actually or something. And then, you know, when people get like angry with the gay agents, there's always like some kind of like, you know, intense energy, it's just it's there's so many different things to observe in an airport. And so when I have time, I'll, yes, and people watch, but that was what my USC essay was about.

Melanie Avalon
incredible. Well, speaking of like energy and vibes and things, and phantom that we've been referencing.

So you're like your childhood and growing up, because I know something we have in common is we were very obsessed as children with the Phantom of the Opera. You were putting on productions of it. I was my dad would play the original score over our house and obsessed.

Carmen Emmi
No, yeah, no, I'm saying like it was it was the show like for growing up as a kid in the 90s

Melanie Avalon
it was so good, so, so good. So you're tying everything together about dreams and goals and all the things.

Did you always know growing up that you wanted to do this? Do you have a memory of realizing when you knew you wanted to do film?

Carmen Emmi
Hmm, I think it was always through acting and I think I'm you know It's so funny cuz I never actually thought about it until you were just talking and asking me the question I never like really thought of like the actual transition point between like me wanting to act and then me wanting to film and I think it was Peter I think it was Peter Pan because I Remember as a boy. I wanted to act like I always I loved I loved theater I still I still think I would love to act on stage I don't think I would want to be in a movie, but if ever there was like a check off like comedy or And any kind of comedy or a drama like play I would non-musical I would I Think I'd be into it if a friend was working on it, you know, but

Melanie Avalon
Like, can we do one together, like act in something together?

Carmen Emmi
It would be a blast. There's nothing like acting in a show. When I was in high school and I did straight plays, it was just that feeling you get with the audience, that connection, and how every night can be different makes it so special.

And I ran my set to feel like the backstage of a play. That's what I wanted it to feel like, that kind of exciting environment. But everyone's well prepared. Everyone's super dialed in, we're all in this together. That's what it feels like backstage of a good play. But I think I was 10 when I got my first camera and still wanted to act. But I remember there was this live action version of Peter Pan that was coming out. And I remember my aunt or something.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, pause the one with Jeremy Sumter, Jeremy Sumter. Can we? Okay, wait, can we like pause?

Carmen Emmi
Can we play the square? Can you play the flying? Can you roll the flying key? Flying song? Yes, you're the flying?

Melanie Avalon
It's literally one of the most epic instrumental moments of, I can hear it in my head right now.

Carmen Emmi
Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun!

Melanie Avalon
Who is it? Is it James? Is it James? Is it Howard?

Carmen Emmi
and Howard of course but so yes it was for that it was really one of the lost boys and I was very when I was a kid I remember being super self-conscious of like how I looked and so I remember telling my aunt like I wasn't gonna do I didn't want to do the casting call and I think I made and that was like the beginning of

Melanie Avalon
for the movie?

Carmen Emmi
for the movie.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So how did you see the casting call?

Carmen Emmi
She knew they had like this like wide casting call for the last boys like the last boys were like they they searched high and low. So yeah, I remember.

And so what I I remember in that era, like feeling really sad about that, but like picking up my camera to make me feel better. So like after Peter Pan came out, I remember I kept trying to make it look like my brother was flying and like tried to edit a sequence where it seemed like he was taking off like Peter Pan. And so I would like get a close up of like his feet and he would like jump and then I would reverse it. And so it would look like he was like taking off and then I would cut and like try and find a way to make it look like he was continuing to fly. And I just became obsessed with filmmaking at that point.

But there was kind of like this natural transition of like wanting to be an actor into and this was like I was like 10 to 12, I think. But it's sad now that I say it out loud that it like some like body image issues, you know, like that's kind of devastating. But it's also I I don't I still think I would have chosen to write and direct in the long run. So I think everything works out for a reason.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Oh my goodness. I had no idea. That's wild. Okay.

Carmen Emmi
I think I did either until just now.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, this is like an in real time moment. Okay, so I have so many other questions. So I'm really curious your, so your experience of all this. And like we were saying at the beginning, a reason I think this is so inspiring is you're literally accomplishing your dreams.

You're doing things that people think are impossible. You know, when you're little, you want to be like a famous actor or director or have movies and like you literally like you've done this with your film. And it's crazy that you're not crazy, but your first feature at Sundance plain clothes was for both director and screenwriter, like a debut for both of them. I remember I was looking through all the like the Sundance categories and people that were there. I feel I mean, there might have been somebody else, but I feel like when I was looking at through, you were like the one person where it was like writer and screenwriter or sorry, director and screenwriter.

Carmen Emmi
I think there are a lot of the ones in the competition, they did both, I'm pretty sure.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, but actually like at the like at Sundance like

Carmen Emmi
I'm not sure about the other categories, to be honest, but I think for in competition, we all wrote our own scripts for the most part. There may have been some exceptions.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I just have like a memory of like looking through the different films. And it was like, blah, blah, director, blah, blah, screenwriter, blah, blah, director. And that was like, for your film, it was like, both, which was so amazing. So some questions about that.

One is, what should I do first? What would you say to people who have these seemingly impossible dreams? How did you keep going through all the years with the rejection and the, you know, doubt? And what was that experience like? And what would you say to people who want to do seemingly impossible things?

Carmen Emmi
I had a lot of hours of filmmaking under my belt, you know, whether it be film school or just having a camera in my hand since I was 10, like film specifically it is a language and so I spent a lot of my life learning that language, but screenwriting was something that was new to me and it was one of those things where I didn't have a lot, I didn't have any training specifically in screenwriting and so I had to make sure that I dedicated the time to doing it, but there was, you know, all of these avenues to explore like screenwriting books I mean and I found one that really landed with me which was called Into the Woods by John York and it's a very like therapeutic look at why we tell stories specifically movies like we do today and I really love it and I highly recommend it even if you're not a screenwriter just to read it and like you'll start to see a lot of these connecting, these ideas in the media that you watch, but anyways I knew that I had to get serious about screenwriting and it was really hard because I didn't consider myself a writer, but I did something that I like really, I don't know who told me to do this, but someone told me I'm really thankful just give yourself 10 minutes a day, like sit down and do it for 10 minutes, you'll find that you do it longer and longer each time and so I, and I still do 10 minutes a day of writing at least, it helps me one feel like a writer because I don't really identify as a writer, I have more identify as like a director who likes to camera operate.

The 10 minutes doesn't feel like a long time, so it's just like if I can do it for 10 minutes then I'm a writer and I found it did grow, like I would end up doing it for like, I would end up writing for like an hour and that really helped me finish it, you just have to keep chipping away at it and know that it's not going to be perfect and that really helped free me up as well.

Melanie Avalon
that is so amazing. And actually I do something very similar that has been a game changer for me, which is, it's similar to the 10 minutes, which is, I think for me and people in general, it can be overwhelming if you have a goal that you want to accomplish.

And so say that goal is like write a screenplay, or for me, like prep an entire podcast or write a blog post. And so you see the end goal that you want to be at. So it's very overwhelming, energetically draining to be I'm going to sit down and do the thing. So if I tell myself, okay, I don't have to do the thing right now. I just have to like, for me, I'll say I'll just write a draft of it, or for you the 10 minutes. It takes all the pressure off of having to create this crystallized perfect thing. And then you just get the content down on paper or whatever you're doing. And then it's so easy. A, not easy, but one, you, like you were saying, like 10 minutes becomes an hour, and you find that you do even more. And then B, you have something to work with to like, you know, find like finalize or like edit. But I think just like committing to a little bit without being overwhelmed with the final, the final product. For me, that helps so much. And it sounds like that works well for you as well.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah. And I just think there's power in like writing it down.

There's a really good quote, actually, I think Greta Gerwig said on a screen on a podcast called script notes, but she was quoting someone else, I think. But she said, I can't save somebody's life, but I can, I can't save anybody's life, but I can write it down. And I can't get this moment back, but I can write it down. And for me, a lot of my fear of screenwriting was like, Oh, it's not gonna be good enough. But I had all these, these ideas that were floating in my head, kind of like rushing by, and then I would forget about them. And then so whenever I, whenever I wrote things down, even if it didn't like make a ton of sense, like it, it freed up my mind a lot to have other ideas. And I was also kind of documenting it to use for when I had to like go to pages, you know, which is like, when you go to write the scenes, because if you just thoughts in your head like that, it's just, they'll just rush by.

Melanie Avalon
amazing. So we're very similar there. I'm also really curious. So you and I both love from Wicked. Thank goodness.

Carmen Emmi
Oh, do you mean the best song of Wicked? Yes.

Melanie Avalon
of Wicked, yes. No, yeah.

And so for listeners who are Wicked fans, they might be familiar with the song and it's all about like this idea of, you know, what you think happiness is and how you could not be happier, but what actually it is when you arrive at it. So I'm really curious your, because you're achieving so many incredible things and you've wanted so many incredible things. So what has been your experience with the concept of happiness? Like, are you happy? And how does it, how is it affected by the goals and the things that you accomplish? And do you find that things you thought would make you happy do or do not just like happiness? Cause I think people really seek happiness. So what is, what has been your experience with that?

Carmen Emmi
I really am living moment to moment right now in my life. So like right now, I'm so, so happy because I'm talking to a dear, dear friend on their podcast, which is like wild, you know? But tomorrow morning might not be the case when I'm like having to get to my desk to like write a pitch, you know? But I think overall, like right now in my life, I would say I'm like living, when I'm living my dream, like this is what I've always wanted to do, so I am very happy.

But I found moments of really intense happiness when I was writing my script, which I was like kind of in unchartered territory, you know? But I think it all stemmed from literally like drinking a lot of water and going on, like getting away from the desk. And like most of my ideas would come when I would be on a run or when I would walk around New York City, because you can never really take the same walk twice in New York. That was really inspiring to me. And I think happiness like for me, like comes from when I have a good routine and when I'm around people I love. And I've been able to do that kind of a lot lately, like with these festivals, like people I, you know, my close friends and family come to the festivals and it's just like so grounding and wonderful. The routine is a little tough, but I always try and get some kind of movement in every day. And that keeps me pretty happy and therapy I would say as well, which is work, but it can yield great results, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, so many things, which speaking of one of my amazing memories I have was I was so when I went to go see Carmen's plain clothes at Sundance, I was in line and your family was in line and they actually recognized me and I hadn't actually I get I don't know if I met them it I guess I met your family in person maybe at graduation maybe?

Carmen Emmi
You met them at 310. My Nana recognized you in the courtyard of SCA because, which is our film school, School of Cinematic Arts, Melanie was sitting at a table and my Nana said to my dad, I think that's Melanie, because my Nana was friends with you on Facebook.

And so it was 310. And then yeah, graduation too, they saw you, but yeah, they haven't seen you since 20. Yeah, since we were in school. Crazy.

Melanie Avalon
it was amazing we were in line like in the freezing cold waiting to go in and i heard like melanie and i was like your entire family it was your mom your dad your brother and i was i was talking to them and it was amazing and then they were like can we can we facetime with your grandmother and so i facetimed with your grandmother

Carmen Emmi
You did, Unana?

Melanie Avalon
Wait, do you know the story?

Carmen Emmi
I didn't know you FaceTimed with Nana, that's amazing!

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay.

Because your mom was like, can we FaceTime with Rosemary? She would. And, and so, and you know me, Carmen, I mean, we're doing this audio only, like, I don't like video calls. I was like, yes, I like sign me up. So we called your grandmother, your Nana Rosemary. And she, Danielle was watching too. And like the moment like she, she immediately, she knew exactly who I was. Like her face lit up. And she was like, Melanie.

Carmen Emmi
You want to know why because I would, yes, you want to know why too is because I talked about you a lot when I first went to USC because I would call like she would check because I was like, I think I would I moved the furthest away from home with anyone in our family at that time. So it was the first time any of us really left Syracuse, New York, you know, for for like college slash life, like my uncle served in the Gulf War.

So that was obviously farther. Yeah, so I think she was always checking in. And I would like the first week was awful. But then I think I became friends with you like the second or third week. And then she knew all about you. And so she was obsessed. And she knew you immediately at 310. And like, yeah, of course, she would remember you now.

I love that her memory is so sharp, Nana, she's

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I know I was okay. I was so impressed because I like you said it was like the Facebook days that we were in college together. So yes, I was Facebook friends with with your Nana and she would like calm. She was always like so supportive.

She would comment on things. But I had not interacted with her. I mean, probably since college. I saw her and she was like, Melanie and I was like, I'm here to see Carmen. We had a moment. It was the most incredible, amazing thing. Thank you.

Carmen Emmi
That's so beautiful. That makes me want to cry. I love that. It's so special.

Melanie Avalon
It was incredible. And it actually has made me think about something.

Okay, so there's like a question in here. And so basically my experience and going, like going to USC, my experience with the film industry that I've had, like meeting you, everything, there's so much incredible heart and, and like relationships and amazingness to it. So it's a two-part question. One, how much does that, like your personal life and your relationships affect your career success? Because I think people, you know, they have all these ideas about career and life and goals. So how much does like your, your relationships and your, your personal, emotional, mental wellbeing with other people affect that also? And then like kind of on the different questions, but how much does the industry fulfill all the stereotypes of not that? So, so basically what is the role of relationships and goodness and kindness and people? And what have you experienced in the industry in general with relationships and people and things?

Carmen Emmi
Well, I mean, it's very, it's really important for me to be close to my family and friends. And so I, especially like at these festivals, like I, you know, I try and it's been really special because obviously my family was going to come to Sundance and then close friends came to Sundance and it was very grounding because it's, it's very, everything's moving so fast. You're meeting a lot of people. It's a beautiful, beautiful experience, but it's, overwhelming, you know? And so it's just really nice to, to be close to people that know me very well and who are grounding.

Like when I went to Mexico City, my friends, Anna and Celine came and we had a, there was this really intense, like not intense, but there was just like this, you know, carpet and, and, you know, a lot of cameras and, and it was just nice the next day to, or even that night, actually, we all just like, they came to the after party and then I ventured off with them and we got like quesadillas or something in Mexico City and it was in tacos. And it was just really nice to be around people who knew me, like when I was a kid, you know, to be around. And that's just like really, that's just really important to me. And that's not the case for everyone. And like, that's totally cool. It's just, I, I really, I really need that. I'm finding it makes me feel safe, especially when I'm talking to a lot of people, a lot of people at once, like when I present my film and, and my, my family and friends, like they definitely inspire my work. I think all of the characters in plain clothes have a little bit of people that I love and respect in there. And that helped, that made it easier for me to write it. That made it easier for me to direct it because I felt like I was with the people I loved, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And you filmed, like you said, at like at home in Syracuse.

Carmen Emmi
And I filmed the Syracuse, so my Nana got to come to set, which was really cool.

Melanie Avalon
Oh really?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, that was really fun. I mean, she came to like the the day we were shooting in the bathroom, and she was like, What do you what's going on in there? And I was like, a scene.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Wait, how old is she now?

Carmen Emmi
Oh, she was born in 1939, which is like the golden year of Hollywood, which is iconic.

Melanie Avalon
It's amazing, I know literally my first thoughts were like the movies that were.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, but the second part of your question, the how's the industry kind of like, is it like kind of like what my expectations were and like how they're met or if they're not type thing?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Carmen Emmi
I mean, I, and I, and I seriously mean this, like I'm, I'm kind of amazed at how cool everyone has been that I've interacted with. And that's because my, you know, I have a really amazing agent at WME named Craig Castell, who he, you know, he set up meetings for me to meet people in the industry. And every meeting I've had has just been so thoughtful and like creatively inspiring. So it's like, I feel very lucky in that sense.

Like I feel very safe to like be myself too. So in making plain clothes, especially like I sent the film to a few queer directors who all quite looked up to like Iris Sacks, Oliver Hermanis, who has a movie coming out with Palmez, Kell and Josh O'Connor called the history of sound. And like, they gave me these incredible notes and incredible feedback and they were so supportive. And it's just like one of those things where it's like, they don't have to do that. It just makes me want to give back, you know, to people who are making films after me, you know? So especially by like the, the queer directors, I feel incredibly supported.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, that's incredible. Oh my goodness.

So what would you tell people who have these dreams of things? If they're doubting their self or, you know, just like struggling or hesitant, what would you tell them about the journey and, you know, what to do? And what would you tell your younger self if you could tell yourself something?

Carmen Emmi
I would say give yourself the time to identify what makes your heart set on fire, what sets your heart on fire, because I think that's key. I was very lucky to know at an early age what I wanted to do. This story came later, and there was a ton of doubt, but I knew that this was the vehicle for me to talk about my feelings on anxiety, and I just had to find a way to write it all down and make it make sense. So I guess the first thing I would say is make sure you give yourself the time and the space to identify what sets your heart on fire.

And I think Lana Del Rey said this in an interview, but she's a big believer in locking the door and throwing away the key, and to anything that doesn't lead to your heart's desire. And I think that that is so key, because if you're like waffling about it, it's like you're not doing the right thing. You just have to burn the bridges and just go for the thing that you want. So I think that was really helpful advice, and she recommended a book called Think and Grow Rich, which isn't really about money. It's more about a mindset thing. So I would say that is really important, and then the doubt comes all the time. Even now, the goalpost is always moving. I think that's what I would tell my younger self is that the goalpost is always going to move, find the joyous moments, and live in them, and work hard. But just know that you're always going to be trying to do the next thing, which is kind of a good thing, but it can be overwhelming and exhausting. So you have to give yourself the time to enjoy the successes, like enjoy finishing your first script. I wish I had enjoyed that moment just a little bit more. I think I was eager to rewrite, but giving yourself those moments is really important because I think that we're in it for the long haul.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I love it so much. I feel like we've had really similar experiences where it's really surreal to accomplish dreams that were so beyond what you ever thought you could do. I mean, I feel like you and I both, like we thought we could do it, but then it happens. And something I work with, and I know you and I have had conversations about it, which is like, okay, so you accomplished this thing that you once thought was unachievable. And now like the next thing seems unachievable. And so, at least for me, it's been a journey of how do I remember that these things right now, I would have like given my life away for like, even like have like have this podcast right now, like I'm interviewing you right now. And this podcast, like it does so well, I've had so many people on it who are incredible. It's something you would have like dreamed of like a decade ago, I'd be like, I would like, like died, like be in the situation. And right now mean, like talking to you right now, I'm just like, so casual, like I'm having a good time. We're friends.

Do you have any practice for like keeping a good perspective on things? Like understanding? How do you appreciate things that you've done and realize how far you've come and the things that you have in the future? Like, how do you balance a perspective on things? Is it hard to remember how amazing everything is? Or what is that like?

Carmen Emmi
I mean, I my journal, I'm actually finishing my journal, this book I have that my friend Angel got me from Japan back in 2017, and I'm finishing it now, which is like, wild because I take like pockets of time. But it's really interesting to read my entries from when I was starting to when I was writing plain clothes, because that's just right at the top of the journal, seeing where I was emotionally and how much like I was, you know, felt so behind and all of this stuff.

So now, like, I guess in terms of, like, how I stay, I how I take like a macro view of where I'm at is like, in my journal entries, now I try and like write things that I'm grateful for, you know, and that that helps me kind of like really take stock in, you know, all the work and and the accomplishments or, you know, what have you. And that's been really helpful, especially when I feel stuck at times. And also reading those past journal entries is really helpful, honestly, to be like, dang, if he could, you know, when I was struggling, right, even being like, can I write a script to be like, oh, you know, it's going to be like, if there was like someone on the next to me that was like, it's going to, it's going to get released in theaters, like just start, you know, you can start. I would, I don't even know what that would do to me, that would probably mess me up. Yeah, but one thing I will say about you is you I felt like, even in school, you were always so, like, determined and focused and not like in like, in like, I forgot, not in like a race, not that there's anything wrong with Rachel Berry, because like, we love her, but not in like a Rachel Berry kind of way, like, not like that, but it was very like, you were just always like, very sad, I'm like, no, I'm going to do this, I want to do this. And, and, and I believe, and I believed it. And I feel like when you have when you put that kind of energy out there, I do think it like, I really believe that things kind of work for you in that way, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I, I agree so much because it's interesting. So I decided to create this show specifically when I read The Secret, which I'm not sure how much I agree exactly with like everything that it says, but the vibe of it is basically like you decide what you're doing and then you do it. And I think there is so much power to having an idea that you want to do or accomplish and then just like you're going to do it and like put all the focus and the energy towards it. It's really, really powerful.

So I think that's manifesting like for both of us and I'm, I'm just so, so grateful.

Carmen Emmi
Like, I think that the thinking grow rich, that was like a precursor to the secret, I believe.

Melanie Avalon
I need to read that, like I'm surprised I haven't read it. Is that like the vibe though of it? Like...

Carmen Emmi
now it's all about like literally he gives you like tips on how to basically like um yeah manifest what you want to do with your life and it's in the context of making money but if you for mine was all like on making plain clothes and like a big part of it was literally like you wrote down like i will do x y z this is how i will do it and you have to read it out loud in the morning and before you go to bed and it like and literally i started i wrote that i went on a trip to japan in 2023 in april with my brother and i and i read and i finished the book there and i wrote out you know that what i was going to say every morning and night and then by october that i got the financing to make the movie it was pretty amazing and it's because like you just work like if you're thinking about it all the time even if it's in your psychiatrist it's just like it's all something's always working like you're you don't even know you're working towards it and you you're making decisions for that because it's just ingrained in you

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is so powerful. I like I love it so much because on the one hand, it can sound kind of like whoo whoo, like, oh, just like think about it and like do it.

But like, it's, it's very literal. Like if you put if you put all your energy, your energy in your life consistently towards a goal, things won't just happen. They require a forward movement towards it consistently. So I think it's so powerful.

Carmen Emmi
When you just look for inspiration, inspiration will hit you because it's something you woke up saying, and I'll be on a walk and I'll get an image of Lucas looking into, the character looking into a light bulb, and it unlocked something from my past. It's just little things like that would happen all the time after I had this new mindset.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing, okay, I'm gonna read that book. I can't believe I haven't read it yet.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, I like took notes like it was one of those books, so you kind of have to like have a notebook next to you.

Melanie Avalon
It's like old, right? When was it written?

Carmen Emmi
in the 20s or something.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So I just looked it up and it was originally published in 1937. 30s. Nice.

Wild. Okay. Well, I do have a question about the gratitude, which is my last question of the show, but before that, what is next for you? So especially like really to what we just talked about where, you know, we have these goals, we accomplish them, they make us feel a certain way or they don't, whatever. And then we have new goals. So where are you at now? Like, what do you want to, how do you view the future? What do you want to do? What's next?

Carmen Emmi
I really want to learn how to fly a plane. That's like, I really want to do flight school. That would be sick.

I think for movies, though, I really do want to learn how to fly. For movies, I've been reading scripts. You know, a script will get sent to you to see if you're interested. So I've been reading scripts that other people wrote and I've been thinking about what I want to write next. I think something like plain clothes, it was so personal for me. It took me a really long time because I was unpacking a lot of personal things that I went through or that I experienced or that I knew people had gone through. And so it just took time. And so I feel like to write something that personal again will take me, you know, a while and I don't really want to rush it. So I'm really open to directing other people's scripts or if there's, you know, a concept that I kind of gravitate towards that's at a company and I can give them an idea of how I would write it and then maybe get hired to write something. So that's kind of, yeah, there's a lot of options, I suppose, and I feel really lucky. It's been a really, really beautiful experience.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so two questions from that one, dream Disney project, what would it be?

Carmen Emmi
Hunchback on Notre Dame. Hunchback on Notre Dame. We were manifesting Hunchback on Notre Dame.

Melanie Avalon
I know, put it out there.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, that would be my dream. I am and I say that in like every meeting I'm in. Um, but it's, it's just the music is so beautiful. And I love the story. And I feel like the themes of like, otherness and feeling like an outcast like that's something that I feel like all of us can relate to. It's just a beautiful story.

What was the other? What was the other?

Melanie Avalon
So I'm so curious to know your answer. So on this show, the biohacking podcast, it's a lot about longevity and lifespan and doing the things to make you live, you know, better and longer.

The question of would you want to live forever? Would you want to live forever? I'm very curious. And I have like reasons for why I'm so curious. But would you want to live forever? Question mark.

Carmen Emmi
I think not because I want to live a long healthy life, so that's important to me, but living forever, I don't know if I would want to because I'd be so curious to see what's next.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. Interesting. Okay.

Carmen Emmi
if that isn't, you know, however that works out. I like to believe there is a next. So, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
So the context of that question is I've, I think I've always wanted to live forever. Like I'm, I just want to keep, like I'm so obsessed with my life and things that I'm doing that I just want to like keep going. Like I just want to live forever. And so I thought, I thought everybody wants to live forever.

And I have quickly realized, especially with the show, that most people do not want to live forever. Mostly because they associate old age with being decrepit or not being able to actually physically, you know, show up. But I don't think I've had the answer before of what you said that because you're interested or excited about or curious about what's, you know, the next thing beyond this. That's interesting.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah. I want to live long enough to see my niece grow up and, you know, I will, Charlie. Yeah. And I definitely will, but.

Melanie Avalon
I'm so jealous of Charlie because she has the most, okay, friends, listeners. So Charlie is Carmen's niece.

She's the daughter of Joe, Carmen's brother. And Charlie has the beautiful, amazing, epic circumstance situation where she has this incredible Uncle Carmen who you've got to meet over the past like hour and a half, two hours, who has been like documenting her life in the most epic like film ways. I'm so jealous of Charlie.

Carmen Emmi
I love her pictures. I love her.

And she's such a Leo. She loves to be in front of the camera, and I love that she loves it. I think she's really interested in cameras and film in general, but I would never want to outlive her. Like, if I continue a man situation, it sounds like a nightmare to me.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that makes sense.

Carmen Emmi
Like, I could never, oh my goodness.

Melanie Avalon
It's like Age of Adeline.

Carmen Emmi
Oh my god, we're talking everlasting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, all the ones.

Carmen Emmi
I love Chuck Everlasting, when, when, when, when, when, let's say Amanda Seyfried, when Alexis Bliddell ran in slow motion, Alexis Bliddell ran in slow motion, Alexis Bliddell

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I see that. Is that who it is?

Carmen Emmi
Yeah. She played Winnie. And Ben Kingsley was in it too, which is wild. But there's this moment where she was feeling trapped and they shot on the other side of the fence and she was running towards it in slow motion in this early 1900s wardrobe. And it was so dramatic and she was running in slow motion. I loved it.

I remember I replayed that scene all the time as a kid.

Melanie Avalon
I'm getting so many flashbacks. I feel like that was like a defining film of my like middle school. I don't know when it came out, but I'm like feeling it right now.

Carmen Emmi
It's such a beautiful story. It's such a beautiful story that I think it asks the question, would you live forever? I think that's the question.

Melanie Avalon
Was it a book? Yeah, yeah. We should have been friends growing up. Like, we would have been...

Carmen Emmi
I feel like we were. In my mind, we were.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we were like and yeah, we in retrospect

Carmen Emmi
You know, who would write a really good movie version of Chuck Everlasting now? Who? Taylor Swift. Oh! I think she could.

I really... Is her story... It's giving like Great American Dynasty except like, I don't know. I feel like that kind of story, that's like, she would nail, like it's like her, you know, seven song and like, I feel like she would nail a lot of the emotions that Winnie experiences in the movie.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, two Taylor Swift thoughts. One, earlier in the show, you said Wildest Dreams. Were you like, was that like a wink, wink? No. No?

Carmen Emmi
No, I said that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, you did. You did. I was like, Oh,

Carmen Emmi
I didn't like what you said. Yeah, no, I didn't. But I still think that Lila De Streame's ex-enchanted mash-up for the 1990 glory is still one of the best mash-ups in history.

Melanie Avalon
Also, we need, okay, wait, can we manifest?

Carmen Emmi
Oh, what's the second Taylor Swift thing?

Melanie Avalon
We manifest a Taylor Swift Broadway musical and you can like somehow be involved or like a film

Carmen Emmi
Well, I think she's she I think she is working on a film right now that she's writing. Oh, really? Yeah, I think so. With her music? I don't know.

I think she's doing it. Like, if she's a director, she directed like all the music video and her music videos, I think she directs a lot of them. So I think she's well, she directed that. Yeah, I think

Melanie Avalon
I bet you think about me.

Carmen Emmi
She also directed the Speak Now vault track.

Melanie Avalon
In case listeners are curious or not or wondering, Carmen and I are big fans of Taylor Swift.

Carmen Emmi
And I'm an even bigger fan of Lana Del Rey, I would say. Like Lana Del Rey is probably, I mean, I love, I think Taylor Swift is like an incredible writer and I think it's very easy.

I feel like, I don't know. It's, I get annoyed when people like, it's just so easy for people to say, Oh, I don't like them and just like, it disregards everything that they do.

Melanie Avalon
Did you listen to their music? Did you read the lyrics?

Carmen Emmi
really the lyrics are like, yeah, Lana Del Rey, like you can sit down with her lyrics and just, and it's, she, I listen to Lana like every day. Like her, her stuff is deeply inspiring to me, but I have no choice but to like respect people who like keep going.

And those are two people who just like keep going and they keep writing. And it's just like, that's so impressive.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, to that point, I actually I have like a very defining memory in my mind. You mentioned earlier how Lana was saying the thing about burning the bridges and like, just, you know, what did you say she'd like throw it out like go forward.

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, she's like, she says, I'm a big believer in cutting out any, this is parabes, cutting out anything that, that doesn't lead to your heart's desire. And she's a big believer in locking the door and throwing away the key.

Melanie Avalon
I remember you telling me that because fun fact for listeners. So you like during your experience of like writing plain clothes and like trying to make it like get it created and all the things you were doing. I mean, a nine to five job, but it was also a film job. So it was, you know, related to your passion.

But I remember you I just remember you I remember like the vibe I have is like your tension between like doing this nine to five job, which relates to your passion, but not the thing you want to be doing forever. And like this idea of like throwing away the keys and like going after, you know, this dream. And so it's just really, it's a big question I think people can have about the energy and where to put it versus like for what you're doing in your daily life versus like the dream.

Carmen Emmi
The reality I mean the reality is like you in order for me to live in New York I had to have a day job like there was no world in which that would have happened for me I mean it happens for some people, you know, but it didn't happen. I for most people.

I don't think that's the case I think it's like It's it can be tricky because you're like, oh, I can't pursue my dream because I have to do my nine to five But I would like I would wake up I remember it was like February and I would wake up it was freezing and I would like go for a run at like five in the morning and then we come back at like Six and then like right until I had to get on the subway at like eight or something, you know eight or nine and then I went to work and it was just like, you know, I do just do that every day and you're You're at least for writing. It's just like always a part of you even when you're at your nine to five You know what?

I mean? And I was very lucky to have to be hired by two companies in New York when I was there that were Like just great environments to work in and so I got to learn a lot and learn New York a lot And that was really that was really special but yeah, it is tricky to like hold on to like those goals when you have to you know, when you have to have a Full-time job that really takes a lot of your energy

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's I feel like it's the question because like, how do you pursue the goals, do all the things, but support yourself? It's just, it's a question. And this has been so inspiring for people.

Carmen Emmi
This was so fun. Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
I know! Oh my gosh, your first podcast!

Carmen Emmi
I can't believe this was like this two hours went by like so fast or however long it ends up being but like we've been recording for two hours and it feels like 20 minutes.

Melanie Avalon
I know, literally one of like my favorite episodes of All Time for this show. And I'm just, I'm so grateful for you. So proud of you.

Carmen Emmi
Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
I have a final question, but anything else you wanted to tell listeners about the film, about plain clothes? So when this airs, we're going to air it around the premiere time of the film, but anything you want to share with listeners about all the things.

Carmen Emmi
Please go see my film Playing Clothes in theaters if it's playing near you, it's going to be in New York and LA on September 19th and then there'll be more theaters added for the weeks following starting on September 19th and then we open in the UK and Ireland on October 3rd.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh!

Carmen Emmi
Yeah, if you have any listeners over across the pond, and then we're going to be opening in other markets like in Spain, Israel, and I think Sweden and maybe Greece, I think. Yeah, so there's like a lot of, it'll be, you know, it's going to be all over, which is really exciting.

So I really appreciate people going to the theaters to seeing it because that's how I am. I intended it to be seen.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay, Carmen, this was amazing. Thank you so much.

Okay. Thank you for being you because I said this in the beginning, but literally you are just such an incredible person in my life. You've affected me in so many ways. I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy for you. And the last question I ask every single guest on this show, and it's because I so appreciate the role of mindset and everything. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Carmen Emmi
Well, since I'm here right now, I'm very grateful for our friendship, you know, and just like the hours of conversations that we've had that have like just definitely changed and made my life better. And just knowing you has just been such a blessing.

And so I'm so glad we were in the same 290 class at ULC and just getting to experience this like wild ride and with you is just, I mean, it's one of life's greatest gifts. So I'm so grateful for you.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Likewise, I love you so much. I am so grateful.

Ah, friends, listeners, go see playing clothes. Now we will have you back in the future because I'm sure you're going to have like so many other incredible films and projects.

Carmen Emmi
I hope.

Melanie Avalon
When you're winning your Oscar, I'll have to get on the lineup. Can I have an interview?

Carmen Emmi
I wish. Oh my god. Oh my god. I can only hope.

But yeah, I know I would love that. And I was going to say too, because I know you like the music in plain clothes, the score, we're going to be releasing the score in the fall as well. So you're on iTunes or Spotify, I think it should be available by the time this comes out.

Melanie Avalon
That's exciting. Oh my goodness. Thanks. Okay. Well, thank you so much. This was like one of the most treasured moments of my life with podcasting and I adore you.

And I can't wait to see everything that happens in the future. You were the best.

Carmen Emmi
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, Why, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com. And always remember, you got this.