The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #272 - Laura Morris & Jennifer Ventrelle, MS, RDN

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is one that I have been wanting to have in spirit and in theory for, honestly, for quite a few years now, the backstory on today's conversation. I'm super passionate about brain health and, you know, taking preventions for cognitive decline and Alzheimer's. And I've had a lot of episodes on brain health, specifically people like Max Lugavere and the Scherzeis at Loma Linda. And I was thinking about this beforehand. I honestly think probably in all of the interviews I've done, I've probably referenced or asked them their thoughts on The Mind Diet. I've been so intrigued by it for so long. And I'm sure we'll talk about this. I'm particularly intrigued in how it includes wine in it as well. So I was just looking in a few weeks ago or not a few weeks ago, probably last year, I had an article published in Fox about cognitive brain health. And I also referenced The Mind Diet. So literally, I am just kind of obsessed with this concept. So when the opportunity arose to actually interview the authors behind the newest book about it called the official mind diet, I was an immediate yes. It was one of those situations where I was just so excited. I knew I had to have these authors on the show. And then diving into the book was really, really wonderful. I learned all about the actual specifics of The Mind Diet. And in particular, the massive time and studies that went into its creation. I have so many questions about all of that. And then what I also loved about the book for listeners is it's very approachable and very implementable. So it's got a program that you can follow. It's got step by step how to do that with the weeks. It's got a lot of tips and tricks on how to implement it. It's got recipes. So this is really a valuable resource for people who want to take charge of their brain health and not just their brain health, but their health in general. So I am just I'm really really looking forward to this conversation. I'm here with the authors Laura Morris and Jennifer Ventrelli. Ladies, thank you so much for both being here.

Laura Morris:
Thank you for having us. We're very excited to talk to you about our book and all things about The Mind Diet. I am too.

Melanie Avalon:
So, to start things off, I don't really have two people on the show at one time. You guys co-wrote this book together. Also, Laura, you wrote it, well, I guess I'll let you speak about this because your mom was the key figure behind all of this originally. She passed away, which you talk about in the book, which is really sad and my condolences to you about that. So I would love to hear both of your stories, how you guys met, the role of your mom in all of this and what that was like to do this book and carry on her legacy.

Laura Morris:
There is a little bit of a complex story behind the making of this book. As you said, my mother, Dr. Martha Claire Morris, was the lead creator and researcher on The Mind Diet. It was her body of work throughout her whole career, was researching nutrients on the brain. In 2015, she created and published The Mind Diet, and in 2017, her and I wrote a book together on the science behind, she wrote all about the science behind brain health. That book is called Diet for the Mind, and I wrote the recipes in a lifestyle section. My professional background is I'm a certified personal trainer and nutrition consultant, and I'm also a professionally trained chef. I love to marry all those together and really give people some useful tools they can use to live a life that they want, a healthy life. I got tied into The Mind Diet with my mom's work. When she sadly passed away, suddenly in 2020, we had already started work on the second book to really highlight The Mind Diet and how people can follow it. The first book was a lot about the science behind The Mind Diet, and we do talk about it in our second book, but I wanted to write a book that people could really use to help them incorporate it into their life, which we know is so much more about behavior. There's knowledge, and then there's behaviors and implementing, and I had the privilege to work with Jennifer way back in the beginning of our careers on a clinical trial for breast cancer patients, and I loved her work ethic, I loved her commitment to the work. She also was the lead dietician for The Mind Diet study. She'll tell you all about her work and involvement in the nutrition and brain health world, but I asked Jen if she'd be willing to help me write this book so it could be as thorough and true to the science and for the people, for public health, and really give them something that they could use to better their lives. I'm so grateful she agreed to do that, and we love talking about it together. I know it's a little weird to have the two of us, but we love sharing the story and sharing all the information we can on nutrition and brain health.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. And Jennifer, how about, how about you? Yeah.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
I'll echo what Laura said, just the incredible work that her mom, Dr. Morris, started in this field. She was really a pioneer in this field. No one really was studying the effects of not only nutrients, but the foods that the nutrients come from and how it impacted cognitive decline and ultimately Alzheimer's disease. So it was really a breakthrough and a privilege to be working with someone who made these discoveries. My role, I'm a registered dietician and thanks to Laura, she pulled me into the world of exercise and I was mentored by her and became a certified personal trainer. My work has always been in the research arena, learning about the research behind things like diets and lifestyle approaches, but then really taking it and helping people apply them in their actual lifestyles. We talk a lot about how it's called The Mind Diet, but we really don't want people to feel like they're on a diet, feel like they're restricted. We want people to see it as a set of realistic and practical guidelines that they can implement. So when Dr. Morris asked me to join her team and learn about the diet she created and then help people follow it in a practical way, I was thrilled. And then after she passed away, when Laura contacted me and said that she wanted to continue and carry on that work and her legacy to spread the messaging so that the diet can still be disseminated towards others and help others be able to carry it on, I was really excited about that and we're pretty proud about the product that is out there now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's so incredible. And yeah, it sounds like you guys make an amazing team. I wrote down a phrase I liked from the book where you said it's The Mind Diet, but never mind the diet, which kind of speaks to what you're saying. Okay, so many questions here. I'm curious, taking over, so Laura, when you decided to continue and take over the work from your mom, you said in the book how you were, you know, basically going through her notes and everything to compile a lot of it. So what was that experience like? Did you find any, like, surprises in going through her work? Were there, like, a lot of challenges there? Was it ever hard to understand, you know, what she was saying? I'm just curious what that process was like.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. So thankfully, my mom spoke constantly on her work all over the world. She traveled all over the world. I hardly knew where she was half the time. And she was very consistent in her messaging and her presentation of the history of the nutrients and the foods and what The Mind Diet was and how it was designed. So she had almost a formula of the way she presented it. So in a way, it was very easy for me to put together her messaging for it. And for me, for anybody who's grown up as a child of a mad scientist, for lack of a better word, you know that their work is their life. And so therefore, it was my life, my siblings life, I am used, I have been listening to her talk about this science since as long as I could remember. So it was very comforting. I listened to podcasts she did and lecture she did, I went, you know, through all of her presentations and things like that. And it was comforting for me during a grieving period for sure. And I really appreciated and felt so honored that I got to help relay her message. And then I also, you know, due diligence for sure, because she was, you know, in the science world, you have to be very careful with the way you say things. So one of her colleagues that she worked with throughout her career, a very brilliant nutritionist, and who was also one of the co-creators of The Mind Diet, Dr. Christy Tangney, I had her review everything that I had written or, you know, I'd interpreted from her and she, you know, confirmed that it was spot on. And you know, she knew that worked very well too. So I did my due diligence and made sure that it was very accurate to the science and all of that. So yeah, but it was, it was quite a process. It took several years, I would say, to go through those and listen to all of it. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
She was a nutritional epidemiologist, right? That was her role. In general, what is the role in coming to and creating The Mind Diet, the role of epidemiology versus like actual causation correlation with the nutrients? So basically, the findings and the science and the foundation of The Mind Diet, is it based more on epidemiological data and what we see correlates to brain health for certain nutrients in people or is it more testing individual nutrients?

Laura Morris:
It would, and Jen, you might be able to help better answer this too. It's probably a combination of those, right? You're looking at population studies where they are evaluating their nutrient intake and their food intake. What an epidemiologist is master, mastery is in, is the nuances of study and study design and looking for all of the biases or inconsistencies and finding the best data in there. Jen, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah!

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah. The early studies on The Mind Diet were epidemiological studies. So they were based on cohort studies, large population studies that looked at individuals and dietary patterns and associations between eating patterns and cognitive decline at risk for Alzheimer's disease. And so the later study is the first of which was The Mind Diet trial to prevent Alzheimer's disease. That was the first clinical trial to test the effects of what, Melanie, what you're alluding to that causation piece. So in cohort studies or epidemiological studies, we can't assume causation, right? We can't say if you follow The Mind Diet, you will prevent Alzheimer's disease, right? All we can say is that there's an association between the people who eat this dietary pattern and the people who have delayed onset of Alzheimer's disease. So it's just now that, and this is typical in the research world, it takes 10, 20, you know, it takes decades in order to study things like dietary patterns and drugs and interventions in order to confirm their efficacy. Then we move on to efficacy trials and clinical trials is sort of the gold standard of that. So the first was The Mind Diet trial. And what that showed was that we didn't see a direct, a statistically significant difference between the people who follow The Mind Diet and the control group. But what we did see is that all of the people in the trial, their cognition improved. And that was curious, because what we expected to see as naturally happens in the natural course of an individual aging is decline in mental performance and cognitive performance. So when we looked more closely at the data, what we saw was that the individuals that in our control arm were actually following more of a mind diet pattern. So what we did is we went back and we looked more closely at the data and did some re-analyses, secondary analyses on the data. And then we found that the individuals who had higher mind diet scores, and we looked at everybody in one group, did indeed have better cognitive performance. So what that says is that we need more clinical trials to confirm that. So that's the stage that we're at now, we've got two clinical trials that are in the works. One is the US pointer study that is testing the effects of not only The Mind Diet, but also a multi-domain lifestyle intervention, also physical activity and cognitive training on cognitive outcomes. And then the other is looking at The Mind Diet and stroke survivors.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'd love to dive a little bit more into that trial. So that first one, that's the one, like it was started before COVID, right? And then COVID happened and it took even longer. US pointer. No, the one that the published in 2023.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
the mine trial. Yeah. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Okay. So it was like, how long was it? Or when was it started in 20...

Jennifer Ventrelle:
It was a three-year intervention. We started the intervention in 2016. The intervention was three years. The whole grant was five years. But it took a little longer because of COVID. So we probably, that entire grant was probably seven years. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Oh, wow. That's crazy. So in this study, they split the people into the control group that were, it was kind of restricted, like they were trying to encourage weight loss, but not change their diet in that group.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
actually both groups were calorie restricted because we wanted that piece to be even. So we asked one group to try to lose weight just by portion control strategies, mindful eating strategies, but keep your diet the same. So Melanie, if you, and I'm certain you don't do this, but if you go to McDonald's every day and eat a Big Mac and French fries, we might say, okay, Melanie, go, you go ahead and get your Big Mac and French fries, but you're going to, you know, cut it in half and get a small fry instead of a large fry. So you're eating the same quality of foods that you're doing a smaller portion. But we don't, we didn't want them to change their food quality, but maybe they would do mindful eating strategies or have smaller portions or work on their meal timing, things like that. Those were the approaches in that group compared to The Mind Diet group that we of course coached them on how to follow The Mind Diet, and then also how to do those same strategies, how to reduce portions and mindful eating and things like that.

Melanie Avalon:
The control group, when they started, they were a 7.8, although I guess we need to talk about before we talk about this.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Oh, you did your research. This is fun. I like talking to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I have so many questions, but I guess before I talk about the numbers, we might, we can briefly clarify and then we can dive into it more. So the scale, what is The Mind Diet scale out of?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
It's out of 14 points in the research side of things. If you read our book, it's 15 points because we include wine for you, Melanie. We include wine, represent. The reason we don't include wine, as you might guess, in the research study is to be responsible and because we don't know the effects of other medical interventions on the research side of things with alcohol. So we removed alcohol for the research purposes.

Melanie Avalon:
in her original book, which now I realize I need to read, was wine in that book.

Laura Morris:
So the original in the observational studies, they were looking at alcohol consumption. And that's where they found an association with a very low amount of alcohol consumption with protective benefits of the brain versus people who weren't drinking at all. So that is when they, you know, it wasn't telling people to drink, it was just observing their behaviors around it and looking at the data. So that's how wine was on that. And we do include it in our book as well. It is an important thing to pay attention to, I would say. And we can get to that when we talk more about the foods to choose and foods to limit. But that score that you're talking about, Melanie, we can go into that is based on adherence to a mind diet. And there's 10 foods to choose on The Mind Diet and five foods to limit. And you track them, you know, you can take a little quiz, we have a quiz on our website, there's a way you can figure out your adherence to this, and it gives you a score. And that's what we were talking about with that study, these numbers that people have. So I was saying the research trials, it was 14 was the highest. If we include wine, it's 15. And the lowest would be, I guess, a zero or one. I don't know if anyone got that low ever, Jen, I would hope not. But so adherence to The Mind Diet based on the scoring system was kind of how you're seeing your risk for Alzheimer's disease or your protective benefits to it.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. And yeah, and I do have a big question about the scoring, but before that, so now that listeners kind of get an idea about this. So can listeners, is there a way they can take the quiz, like a quiz online to get their score? Is it just in the book? I bet they're really eager to do that.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
do that. Yes, we love that. Yes. Yeah, you can find the quiz on our website. It's just theofficialminddiet.com.

Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. So listeners can go take that right now and see where they line up. So in that trial, you found that... So the control group originally had a 7.8 and they increased to an 8.5 without you guys really wanting them to or asking them to. And then The Mind Diet group was originally a 7.7 and they increased to an 11. I mean, I'm really curious your thoughts, because the way that the study concludes is that there actually wasn't any difference in the interventions, that it wasn't statistically significant, the increase. So I'm curious, even though it wasn't statistically significant, did it show that... Because there is a difference between an 8.5 and 11. Was there better cognition with the 11 versus the 8.5, even if it wasn't statistically significant? And also, how did you feel about the findings being that at the end, with all that time?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
I'll answer that question first. Mad. I felt completely mad about the findings. And all of us, we were scratching our head like, how did this happen? Right? So actually, I'll back it up even further. The first thing I'll say is from a public health perspective, the fact that on average, everybody's cognition improved in a trial where the objective was to observe decline in cognition and watch the rate and hope that we can slow the rate is just lets everybody celebrate. Right? That's fantastic from a public health message messaging.

Laura Morris:
and during a pandemic too, you know.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
in the middle of a pandemic. Yes. Now New England Journal of Medicine didn't want us to paint the picture that way. There were lots of versions of that article that came out. And thinking that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So we have to be very careful. To Laura, I want to highlight something Laura said earlier. As a scientist, you have to be very careful in the way that you word things. I call myself a scientist, but I know that I'm also a clinician and I at heart, all I want to do is help people and help them change and improve and give them hope. And so when I saw this, I thought we cannot just leave it at this. We cannot just let this message be The Mind Diet doesn't work because it's not true. It's just not true. Then what we do is that's, that's the primary outcome and that's all you can do. Right. Period. But then what you do is you go back and you explore, you do what are called post hoc analysis and you look for other things. And, you know, and that's kind of the fun part, right? As research nerds are like, okay, what else can we find, right? And why did these things happen? And how can we look at other things? And not in a way that's, you know, massaging the data or trying to make things look that they aren't, but in a way that tries to uncover what else can be done here and inform future research. Cause it doesn't just stop there. Let's try to inform future research. So when we went back, what we did is look at, so yes, if you look at year one, year two, year three, where we did our primary out, where we did our outcomes assessments, what you'll see is year two marks the beginning of the pandemic. And there was a trend. If we were all on video, I'd show you my favorite graph of the trend where there was a borderline statistically significant difference between the control group and the mind group. Then when the pandemic hit at the beginning of year two, from year two to year three, what starts to happen is the control group begins to get worse and the mind group continues. It gets, it gets a little bit worse, but still better than the control group. And so you have to ask yourself what would have happened had there not been this pandemic? Everybody suffered, right? Like, so we know that there were interferences. The other thing that I would do differently cause hindsight is 2020 when you're looking back at really anything, but we had, we gave everybody in the trial a lot of attention. Even the people in the control group, we had our registered dieticians call them every week for the first six months and then every other week for three years, three years. Now think back to that meal, Melanie, you eat your Big Mac and French fries for lunch every day. Maybe you've had a dietician calling you every other week and she keeps telling you it's okay to do your Big Mac and French fries, but over time, you're probably going to start, even if she doesn't tell you eat salad and leafy greens, you're probably going to start eating healthier because of the contact and the positive interaction. And again, from a public health messaging, what that says is wonderful. It tells you that interaction with a health professional and a coach is great no matter what they're telling you, they're encouraging you. So there were things that we would have done differently, I think on the design side. Now, and I can tell you what we do in the newer trials, the other trials that I mentioned, the US Pointer Study and the Nourish trial, what we're doing, those control groups are more similar to what we call usual care. Usual care is you go to your doctor's office or your nurse's office. You go to your doctor's office, you see your doctor or nurse practitioner, and they'll tell you the same things that are being said that are healthy. It's not like they're withholding information or telling you things that are unhealthy for you, but you're not getting that, the world of someone calling you every other week to remind you that you shouldn't eat a full Big Mac and French fries is just unrealistic. So it's less contact, you get the information. And so the question is, do you need that hand holding in order to make the changes? The question really is how can we design interventions long-term in order for people to understand the information and adopt the habits and make those long-term lifestyle changes? It's probably not enough just to go to the doctor's office once a year or twice a year, but it's probably too intensive to have a dietician call you every other week for three years.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, this is yeah, so interesting. So were you able to with that, you know, studying it afterwards more ongoing, see anything specific about The Mind Diet foods with that with that difference of how the control group did improve?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yes. So then what we found when we went back is that people who had higher mind diets, because then we put everybody in one cohort. Instead of saying, okay, let's see if there's a difference between the two groups, since the people in the control group obviously made some changes and improve, what we said is, okay, let's treat this like our cohort studies. Let's just put everybody into one cohort. And then we looked at their mind diet scores and we said, okay, who got better? So regardless of dietary arm, how they were counseled, how often they were talked to, the individuals who had higher mind diet scores had the highest cognitive performance. Those who were in the high, we split the scores into what are called tertiles. So those who were in the highest tertile, I believe the score range was 10.5 to 12.5. I have to go back to my notes and look, but it was at least a 10.5. So the message is that scoring at least a 10.5, and this is over the course of three years, right, had higher cognitive performance. And then another analysis that was really interesting that all the scores were what are called adjusted for a baseline, which means, okay, what if I'm someone that, you know, doesn't have such a healthy diet? What if my initial mind diet scores are free? There's no way I can get a 10.5. Like that's a huge change for me. Do I still have the ability to improve my cognitive performance? And so we looked at we were able to adjust the scores. And even for those who didn't have high scores at baseline, an increase of three points, at least three points was also associated with higher cognitive performance at three years.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So I'm also curious. So in this in the trial or in the study, they said that at the end that the white matter hyper intense volume increased in both The Mind Diet and the control, whereas the hippocampal and total brain volume decreased in both groups. I'm just curious in general, like the brain size and the different areas of the brain is increasing always a good thing and decreasing a bad thing or is it more nuanced than that?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
I'm not a neurologist, but my basic understanding of it is that yes, so as we age, our hippocampal volume and size decreases, our brain, our whole brain, not just the hippocampus. Hippocampus is usually the first area, that's where our learning and our memory is housed, and typically where we first see signs of the beta amyloid plaques, and that's usually the first to degrade and get smaller. So yes, that's why we measure that. So yes, shrinkage is, to my understanding, negative, and that's why we measure that. Also, the gray matter and the white matter hyperintensity would be the same trend. I also think we have to, you know, be cautious in our interpretation of those numbers. One of the things that was, is often listed as a limitation of the mind trial and a suspicion of why perhaps we didn't see a bigger difference or any statistically significant difference between the two groups is because it takes a while in order to see some of these changes in the brain, especially with Alzheimer's disease, and a trial of three years sometimes isn't long enough. That's oftentimes why a lot of this information is cited in some of the cohort or the epidemiological research, because the luxury of that is that you get to study people for such long periods of time, because they don't have to follow an intervention for a really long period of time. It's really hard to get to keep people in a clinical trial, and it takes a lot of money to keep people in a clinical trial for a long period of time. So the direct answer to your question is yes, and I would just caution with how specific your interpretation is.

Melanie Avalon:
And something to point out for the listeners, the participants all had a family history of dementia. So they were, you know, potentially predisposed to more cognitive decline. So it's nice to see that they know the improvements they did experience. So the actual diet itself, what does it stand for?

Laura Morris:
It stands for the Mediterranean DASH intervention for neurodegenerative delay. So it is a hybrid of the Mediterranean and DASH diets with specific brain nutrient-rich foods in modifiable categories. So when they were looking to put together a diet for clinical trial and intervention trial, they were first looking at the Mediterranean and DASH diets because as we know those are two very well-known, well-studied diets for health benefits and they were going to use one of those and then my mom was sitting there and saying, you know what, we have all of this data and the science on what foods are particularly good for the brain and we need to use those foods. So they just went through each kind of category of those two diets and modified them to reflect all the rigorous science on brain health and that's how they came up with The Mind Diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So when I hear both Mediterranean and DASH, I immediately get hit with what's the word like stereotypes, but when I hear DASH diet, I think low salt, like that's the first thing I think. What is the role of sodium in The Mind Diet?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, it's interesting. We don't explicitly tout a sodium restriction in the sense that we ask people to count their milligrams of sodium. But I would say that The Mind Diet is sort of naturally low in sodium because of the nature of the things in the 10 foods to choose, you'll see that they're naturally low in sodium and then the five foods to limit are quite high in sodium. And so I think it just ends up naturally being low.

Melanie Avalon:
So looking at the foods, it feels a lot like going back to stereotypes, like the stereotypes of the Mediterranean diet, so, you know, olive oil, and I have questions about that. The vegetables, the berries, the fish and seafood. So actually, maybe we can go into the nuances of some of this. One of my big questions, coming up with the, was it, Laura, was it your mom that came up with that algorithm for the quiz and the score and everything?

Laura Morris:
her and her team did that, yeah, to check adherence to The Mind Diet and the participants. Yeah, her and her team sat down and went through what they saw to be protective of the brain and then to see what people were eating and how close they were to that number.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so here's my super biased question, because I took the quiz multiple times. And I only score, well, at least when I took it like an 8, which is not the 8.5. And my question here is, what are your thoughts on the weighing of the positive foods? So the foods that are you're encouraged to eat versus getting points for not eating the quote, I don't want to put morality on food, but the foods that are not supportive of cognition, so fried foods, sweets, pastries, things like that, would there be a difference or an added benefit if you're not eating any of the negative foods and you're only eating the positive foods but you aren't eating enough variety of the positive foods to get a high enough score? Like the weighing of the positive versus the negative, what is the role there when it comes to supporting cognitive health?

Laura Morris:
So, I'll probably let Jen answer that one a little bit more specifically, but I kind of think I know what you're saying, Melanie, I think, and that I think there is a brilliance in The Mind Diet in that it's not an extreme diet. If you, if, for example, people, your listeners don't really know what it is, if it's the first category, for example, the vegetables category, it's to eat two servings of vegetables, one of them being leafy greens, one of them any other vegetables a day, whereas the Mediterranean diet you have much more, much higher amounts, four to six servings of vegetables a day. And that's because that's where they found the protection to be for brain health was those two servings of vegetables. They didn't see protection over people eating more than that. So we know vegetables are good and we actually encourage people to eat lots of servings of vegetables, not just two, but if you're eating two, you're going to get those protective benefits for those. So it's really, there is nuances in that it's not, you know, you have to just eat this way. It's kind of taking, looking at it as a whole. There's a theme with the foods to limit and it's saturated fat. That's the main component in all of them. So it's kind of paying attention to your saturated fat. If you're a big red meat eater and you want to eat more than the three servings on The Mind Diet, then maybe you eat less cheese and butter and things like that. It's kind of finding a balance with it. That's how we like to describe it. It's not a eat exactly how it is structured out, but it's more of, it's an implication of your risk for Alzheimer's if you can follow within those guidelines. So that partially answers it. And Jen, if you wanted to add something to that.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, I mean, I think I think you answered that. Well, I think that also partially, we're still learning. I think partially, there's the potential for your question to be an empirical one. Right? Do we know everything? So, would you care to give us a more? I guess there's something specific, you're wondering,

Melanie Avalon:
I can clarify a little bit. So basically, so after taking the quiz, multiple times, I was like, I was like, I'm eating all of the, you know, the brain, like I literally like pounds of blueberries, chicken fish, tons of cucumbers. I was like, do I not get bonus points for like not eating the processed foods, the sweets, the fried foods? Because in the algorithm, I felt like I hit a glass ceiling for me personally, unless I wanted to integrate like foods that don't work too well for me, like beans and legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds. People who are eating a super whole foods based diet, but due to their personal food sensitivities and such, they're in a more limited approach to those whole foods. Are they, you know, not going to reach their brains full potential from the diet.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, it's a good question. When you look at the algorithm, it appears as though each of the foods are weighted almost the same, right? Zero points for one category of half a point or one point split into thirds. But the serving sizes and the frequency of each is different. And as Laura mentioned, that's based on what was seen to be effective in the research for brain health. So for example, I think you mentioned the olive oil. That is probably one of the most, our research participants have mentioned that's one of the most challenging groups to get in because the target is two tablespoons per day. And some of them have trouble figuring out how do I integrate two tablespoons per day? And so we have to get creative with recipes and ideas and things like that and how to integrate it. And the reason that it's at that target is because that was the level that was shown to be protective for the brain. And I think what you're saying is if someone can't get that in or doesn't like it or has an allergy or something, it's a bad example for olive oil, but shouldn't they get sort of credit if they don't eat any of the foods on the

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, that's my question. I was to live it. Don't we get bonus points? Yeah.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, it's it's I think when that's what I meant when I said perhaps it's an empirical question like it would be interesting to do a study to see if we eliminated all of so I'll give you give you some numbers with this the individuals because when I asked you to be more specific, I wondered if you meant, you know, I eliminate all of the saturated fat and trans fat, right? We know that that's most offensive. So people who ate the highest amounts of saturated fats and trans fats had more than double the risk for Alzheimer's dementia compared to those who ate at the lowest amounts. So I wonder, I don't know if we looked at can we eliminate those but maybe not get a full high mind diet score with that. Would that make an effect? I don't I don't know. It's a good question.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, and it's you know, the the foods that are recommended are food, you know for whole grains and beans and legumes are Those two in particular did not show a direct Link to brain health like some of the other foods and nutrients but they do have many other health benefits and cardiovascular health benefits and It's been found that people who have whole grains and their diet verse people who don't have whole grains actually have Less inflammation in their body. So there is lots of research behind those foods to choose and You know Jen I like to tell people if if you you know, you have restrictions on some of the foods to choose and just focus on the ones that you do eat and and try and keep Those at adequate levels. It sounds like you're doing pretty good in a lot of the other categories and you know That's great and if you know for example whole grains for example are high in B vitamins and fiber and Choosing foods that you would get those nutrients from could you know, just be beneficial if you're not eating them It's not a eat exactly as it is It's kind of look and see where if there are room is there is room for improvement and how you can improve it And if you don't eat those foods, what can you eat? That would be maybe giving you similar nutrients to it instead. So it's not exact exact and You know, it's a probability and a reduced risk, but there's many other factors that go into it So I think just being mindful of it Like you are and taking the quiz and seeing where you're at and seeing What you're doing well at and what you could improve in is is huge and that's what we want to encourage people to do

Jennifer Ventrelle:
I'm also appreciating what you're bringing this up, Melanie, because the other thing that we want, this sort of goes along with never mind the diet. It feels like what you're alluding to is that it feels a little diet-y, gimmicky, and if that comes up for you or for people, I think, Laura, you'd agree with me in saying this. Just don't score it. You can follow The Mind Diet and know what foods are the most brain-healthy and not have to have it on some sort of a numeric scale. That's okay. That's okay. That, I think, is the definition of mindful eating.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. And yeah, it's not that it felt gimmicky at all. It felt like maybe it was an algorithm or a math equation that is great for a lot of people in a lot of circumstances, but might not be might not have just might not literally have quite the algorithm needed for people in certain situations, like the one I was mentioning for me.

Laura Morris:
And absolutely, there's lots of people who have fish allergies and not allergies and, you know, it's absolutely encouraged not to eat them if you cannot tolerate them or have intolerances or allergies, you know, and that's, again, where we kind of, it would fill in the holes of what nutrients that we are aiming for you to get with those foods and where you can get them in other places.

Melanie Avalon:
Have there been studies because red meat and processed meat are together in a category? Have there been studies on cognition that separate out on processed red meat from processed meat?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
A brand new one just came out based off of the Nurses' Health Study. So over 40,000 individuals were studied and they looked at exactly this. They looked at, okay, can we separate out eating processed red meat, right? So the bacon and sausages and cured meats and things like that versus maybe my fresh hamburger meat. You know, we hear a lot about the grass fed meats and burgers and things like that. And it turns out that it is indeed healthier to have the unprocessed red meat. Individuals who ate processed red meat had a 14% higher risk for dementia compared to those who ate it at the lower amounts. We just did a whole research article on this on our website. We have a research section on our website where we try to keep people up to date on the most recent research. And this was a big study that was, I don't even think it's published yet because it was announced at the Alzheimer's association international conference in July. It made some news headlines, but they're really exciting thing about it. But we like to say, cause we don't like to just tell people not what not to do. We like to tell them what can be a switch was that then they looked at, okay, if you swap out one serving per day of the red meat, the processed red meat with beans and nuts, that ended up reducing risk for dementia by 23%.

Melanie Avalon:
Did they find isolated findings for red meat, and if so, was it neutral or positive?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, you mean the, like, unprocessed red meat? Unprocessed.

Melanie Avalon:
Sorry, yeah, unprocessed red meat.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
It was the same risk. I think it was 14%, but it was a higher number of servings. I think it was like 23 ounces a week versus seven ounces a week.

Melanie Avalon:
So you had to eat over three times the amount to get the negative effects of the process meat equivalent. Right. Interesting. Okay. I have to read that.

Laura Morris:
And you know, in the mind, I think a lot of people think you can't have red meat on the diet or it's there's nothing on the diet that you can't have. It's actually you can have up to three servings a week and still adhere to The Mind Diet of red meat. You know, if you are a red meat eater, you can still eat it on The Mind Diet and get a good score. It's not zero servings. It's three servings per week.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you think you would, based on the future findings, that would ever be updated? Like, cause right now it's zero to three servings for red meat and process meat, like all lumped together. Like if depending on how the data continues to unfold.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
a great question. So we have a committee, we've formed a committee of nutritionists, dieticians, and scientists at Rush University where the my diet was created. And this is the task, this is the objective of this committee is to say, you know, this information is coming out and there are things that need to be updated. So that's our goal is to look at the most recent evidence and all of the areas and then make updates to the diet as needed.

Melanie Avalon:
Something I'm super curious about is, we mentioned this briefly before, but vegetables are broken down into leafy greens versus other than leafy greens. That's a nice title. What I'm really curious about is, I wouldn't imagine, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't imagine all of the prior epidemiological data, do they normally break it down by leafy greens versus non-leafy greens? I'm wondering where that concept came from.

Laura Morris:
No, they don't. No, this was a paper, I don't know what it was published, that my mom did that looked at people's leafy green intake and their risk for Alzheimer's. And they found that people who had six servings of leafy greens a day equivalent of a brain 11 years younger. So this was very big to see. I mean, that's huge, right? So that really, you know, kind of pulled leafy greens out as kind of a super food for the brain. That's why and how they were able to look at it and other, and the population studies in The Mind Diet, like, let's pull this out separate, because this one seems to be very potent and protective of the brain.

Melanie Avalon:
Was that a similar case with berries versus fruit? Which fruit is not even a category, right? Besides berries? Yeah.

Laura Morris:
That's yep, absolutely. Yep. So in the fruits category, we only have berries and Like to point out that it's not don't eat other fruit It's not bad for your brain. They just didn't see anything statistically significant either way by eating other fruit. It wasn't harmful It wasn't protective except for berries they found a lot of protection from the the nutrients that are in berries particularly the Anthocyanins and those all those antioxidants that give them that rich pigment color. They found that people who eat Berries around five times five servings a week serving as a half a cup had a lot of protection for the brain So that's the our only fruit in the fruits category on The Mind Diet

Melanie Avalon:
It's shocking the amount of berries I eat. It's really shocking. I eat pounds every night, literally frozen berries.

Laura Morris:
some blueberries they're so good when they're frozen it's like a dessert they are you're so good and your mouth gets all blue

Melanie Avalon:
right? I love my blueberries so much. So do we in our house. There's definitely an idea out there that blueberries are like a superpower brain food. Is there a lot of data separating blueberries from the other berries or is it really just all the berries?

Laura Morris:
I know blueberries have the highest amounts of anthocyanins in them compared to other berries, but there is, and Jen can probably talk about a study on strawberries and their protective benefits of strawberries on the brain. So we say all berries, you know, they all carry a good pack of nutrients in them. So is there a better berry than the others? I wouldn't say that. I say eat what you really like. But my mom Melanie also loved blueberries and ate an obnoxious amount of them. Yeah, she loved them. Did she like them frozen too? She ate them fresh, but you know what? My, my family were frozen blueberries. We have like them.

Melanie Avalon:
I go to Costco and I get the big organic frozen blueberries and I just, they know me at Costco, like, get the bag of berries. She's here. Yeah. It was funny when COVID first happened and everybody was stockpiling food. It was funny because that's just the way I shop normally. Like I go to Costco and I just buy pounds and pounds of like the same items. And so I was like, I'm not like stockpiling. This is how I normally shop all the time.

Laura Morris:
this is just me. I don't think there'd be much judgment out of Costco for that would there.

Melanie Avalon:
you'd be surprised. I mean, you know, it's bad when like the Costco people are like, know me for it. I'm like, this is Costco. I'm allowed to like,

Laura Morris:
This is what we're here for, bulk buying.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I have notes about the strawberries that has a compound called pella, I'd never heard of it. Pella gonadine? Pilaragonadine, yeah. Pilaragonadine? I never, I get excited when I've like never even seen a word before that's health related. So that helps for tau tangles is what I wrote down.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, there was a study that showed that the specific bioactive contained in strawberries was associated with reduction in tautangles and the babyamoid plaques in the brain.

Melanie Avalon:
One more food-related question. I've just been dying to ask you guys all these questions. The difference between fish and seafood versus poultry, what was found there? Because the poultry serving size is you eat more poultry to get the points compared to fish. And I know, like we talked about earlier, well, we talked about your mom earlier, but I don't think we mentioned that one of her first, was it one of her first big studies with the fish oil?

Laura Morris:
Yeah, that was a big one. You mean the fish and mercury?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, well, yeah, what does she study with with fish oil?

Laura Morris:
Yeah, so.

Melanie Avalon:
Omega 3's.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, she had a big study that came out about looking at fish intake and its effect on the brain. And what they found was just one serving of fish or seafood, it doesn't have to be fish or seafood, a week was very beneficial to the brain. So that's why we have one serving a week on The Mind Diet, which is different than the Mediterranean diet, which is more on two or three. And they also found, and this was really cool, there's a large ongoing study out of Rush University called the Memory and Aging Project, where they follow people over time and collect information on their nutrition and other lifestyle factors, and their risk for dementia and Alzheimer's. And this was a study that participants also agreed to donate their brains, which is so cool. I always just think of how many people it takes to make these studies work and all these participants who feel so honored to be a part of it, and they're donating their brains at the end of the study. And they're able to look at their brains and the pathologies going on in their brains and what they're eating and how their brain looked. And what they're able to find is that although there were higher amounts of mercury in the brain with people who had more fish consumption, it did not have an adverse effect on their clinical outcomes for Alzheimer's disease. I mean, they did not have a higher amount of Alzheimer's. They actually had more protective benefit by their fish intake. So that was really big because that's often a concern for many people, is mercury in fish. And that's a big study, and that's a big reason why they have the one serving a week of fish for brain protection. And the poultry, it's two servings a week. The poultry is on the list because it's not a food that directly has benefit to the brain that they can find. It's more of an indirect benefit. There's many good nutrients in poultry, and that's a little bit more for other health outcomes, having two servings of poultry a week. So fish is one that we know has direct benefit because of the DHA and the omega-3 fatty acids. Poultry is a little bit more indirect, but it's part of a healthy diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, gotcha. My main source of protein, again, from Costco, a ton of scallops. I love scallops. I do get concerned about the mercury and, you know, certain species. But yeah, it was really interesting to read that part of the book, going through the fish and the mercury. And what about fish oil supplements?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
We don't explicitly promote fish oil supplements. There's been some evidence, the research is conflicting. There's been some evidence to support the positive effects of omega-3 intake and supplement form for cognition, but really the consensus and the expert field, even the Global Council on Brain Health, really does not promote it. The conclusion is that there's not enough conclusive evidence right now. You know, part of the problem with supplements is that not just for omega-3 supplements, but all supplements is that the industry really is not regulated, right? It doesn't have to be regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. So there's no guarantee that what you get in one formulation in a bottle is the same as something else. So it's really difficult to have that out there and have consumers be confident that they're getting what is intended. It's one problem, but even if they were getting the sort of a certified item, the supplement studies that have come out to be positive often are done on individuals that are deficient in the nutrient and then they have positive outcomes. Well, if you're deficient in something and then you bring someone up to a normal level, of course you're going to see positive effects. So what we don't see is when someone is already at optimal level, we don't see benefits above and beyond what is needed just to be at optimal level. And therefore, what we see is oftentimes more risk than benefit. And I think that's why it's been difficult to bring really sort of the medical and research field to adopt and endorse promotion of supplements.

Melanie Avalon:
My audience knows I'm really passionate about that messaging because the quality and the safety of supplements and everything is just, it's a wild, wild West out there. Okay. The wine, the wine category, which I've been dying to talk to you about. So in the quiz, it does lump together red wine, white wine, sparkling wine, dessert wine. Interesting. Which would be higher in sugar. So were there differences between the type of wine found in any of the data and also what is the role of wine? And if listeners are curious, so zero servings a week gets you zero points, one to six servings a week, gets you half a point, seven servings a week, gets you one point, and then more than eight or more servings gets you no points. So basically you're, yeah, that's what you get. So what are the findings with wine?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah. So, as you just described, it's sort of a bell curve, right? Those who have none at all don't get any benefit. And it seems that a very moderate intake, so the target is about five fluid ounces, which, you know, it's really interesting. Laura, I love, so we do our six-week program that's in the book. We have a live program that we do. And one of my favorite demonstrations that Laura does is actually pour out five ounces of wine.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, I get my little ounce pour like a bartender and I show what five ounces look like.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
It's really disappointing. So five fluid ounces, which is probably less than we're used to being served at most restaurants, is the amount that was shown to be protective per day to the brain. And anything above that was shown to really be offensive, neurotoxic, yeah. And so this is a really controversial area of health right now because that is still true for the brain health world data. There's been some other information research that's come out, like my cardiologist friends are sort of recommending no alcohol at all now because there's been more studies about the negative connection between alcohol and blood pressure and other cardiovascular outcomes. But it seems to be that the polyphenols, there's anthocyanins and specifically resveratrol that is contained in the skin. More, in all skins of grapes, but higher concentration in red grapes. So higher concentrated in red wine seems to be what is beneficial and has protective effects at that moderate amount. So we tell people to just be responsible with it. We never recommend that people start drinking if they're non-drinkers, but just being mindful with intake and enjoying it, enjoying it with a good meal, savoring it, tasting it.

Melanie Avalon:
Something I would love to see studied is pretty much all of the studies I've seen on alcohol and health and whatever regards it may be, they tend to lump it together. Either it'll be just alcohol as a broad category or it'll just be wine. It might be like red wine or white wine, but I don't ever see studies that look at conventional wine and alcohol and drinks versus like organic, dry farmed, lower alcohol, lower sugar. Like I feel like the quality might be playing a role there because to me there'd be a big difference between having a conventional glass of high sugar wine that's high in pesticides from some winery in California compared to like a dry farmed, low sugar, low alcohol wine from the Loire Valley in France. So that's some studies I would like to see personally that if there's any difference there.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, you make a good point. It's a nice parallel to what we talk about with olive oil. We make a big deal about reading your labels with olive oil, checking that it's certified, storing it in a cool, dry place. A glass container is better than a plastic container. You really want to preserve those polyphenols and monounsaturated fatty acids. It could see a lot of the same applications that you're talking about with preserving those nutrients in wine and thus the effects. So yeah, it's a good point. We've got a lot of good research questions, Melanie. You should join our research team. Oh my goodness.

Laura Morris:
I would love to. I always want to see those two. And I remember my mom answering questions about that. And she said it's so hard to study people eating organic versus non-organic because there's so many, as you know, nuances even within USDA organic labeling and people even knowing what their food is or where it's from. It's so hard to track that. So therefore, it's so hard to study that. But you look at US health in general versus other countries that don't have a lot of pesticides and GMO foods. And there's a difference. So I feel like there is something there. It's just, it's very hard to study. But we do need to do that. I would love to see that kind of stepped up in our research world and nutrition world.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I feel, I feel really passionate about it and it makes, so here's a question I have because I was saying how I would love to see those studies. So we're talking, you're talking earlier about the patients that are doing the studies and then donating their brains to that study. If you guys could sign up for a study and then you would donate your brains at the end, what study would you want to be a part of? Basically, like what is your ideal, you know, like what study do you really want to see done that you would like to take part in?

Laura Morris:
I am interested in so many facets of, you just mean in all of medicine, you mean? I guess anything, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'd have to think about that. But I have my organ donor, yes, take anything you need for me to look at, but wanting to study it, I guess what would be most relevant. So I guess you would have to take a look at your health history and see what maybe you'd be at risk for and what would be most relevant to help the scientific world. It's kind of generic, but I don't, yeah, I've never really thought about it. What about you, Jen?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
So the other area of work that I do is I'm a mindfulness meditation teacher and I got into that field selfishly because I am an incredibly anxious person. And so I need meditation to calm myself. So I would love to watch the specific events and times in my life and match that up to my meditation practice and then donate my brain and see what that looks like.

Laura Morris:
Hey, yes, what about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I was just thinking about that. I mean, maybe something related to the drinking only dry farmed low sugar, low alcohol wine and seeing the effects. My concern with the, because I have thought about this before, the Oregon donor piece is I've thought, what if it get donated to some study that's being, you know, biasly funded by like a processed cereal company, you know? And that's what I was like. Yeah, you would know that before you... Oh, you do know for the Oregon donor card?

Laura Morris:
Oh, the organ donor, I think they usually use that for-Oh, that's probably donors for-For patients that are in need of, yes, different parts. Yeah. But for, yeah, for scientific research they're using, yeah, you would know what kind of-

Melanie Avalon:
study. You're signing. These are the things I think about.

Laura Morris:
I love it. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, and speaking of the mindfulness piece, because I know you guys were mentioning at the beginning, and I've read the book, so I know that we talked a lot about the actual diet and the science of that. But so much of this book is about the actual implementation and making it doable and approachable and how to do it based on your lifestyle. So like, are you rushed? Like, how to do it that way? And, you know, tips and tricks, and you have like a refrigerator chart where you, you know, have all the foods. And so I know we're coming up on our time, but what would you want listeners most to know about that aspect of the diet and the approach? Maybe what's your favorite? What was one of your favorite pieces of that when it comes to the implementation and the program?

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Yeah, I mean, the way we designed the program was really around the things that we know. So I've been helping people change their lifestyle and develop health habits for over 20 years. And, you know, so Laura and I kind of put our heads together and said, okay, what are the things that that have worked for people, right? And we kind of came up with this acronym that we called it smart mind habits. And it was like the these are the categories of things that that we believed were necessary, but could be customized for people in whatever way they were living their life. So when we approach it, whether we're working with a group of people or one on one, trying to just get a piece of each of those components for people. So the S and smart is self monitoring, which is a technique that is just keeping track of what you're doing in some way. So our tool that we use is that refrigerator chart. And I think even if you do it once, just to see where you start and where you're at, and may or may not continue keeping track of the score, it raises awareness of where you're at and what you're doing. And then the M and smart is is meal planning. And that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And it really, I think is the we say lean meat and sweet potatoes of what the whole kind of book and program is about. Because I think that people get really overwhelmed when they think they have to plan every single meal, every single day. So that can be as complex for that is, if you want, if you're that type of person, you know, we've got a whole spread of a two week meal plan, if you're that type of person, and you really want to plan every single day, every single meal. But it could be just, okay, I learned that one of the most powerful foods I can eat for my brain is leafy green vegetables and olive oil. I'm going to try to make a salad dressing and get some leafy greens and try to get that two days a week, right? It could be as simple as that. How can I meal plan a salad a couple days a week? And then the A is action plan. So it's the idea of actually holding yourself to something holding yourself accountable to something and writing that down and saying I'm going to have a small goal. For example, what I what I just said, maybe it's making that salad twice a week, and I'm going to hold myself to it, and then I'm going to return to it. And rather than just writing it down and putting into the abyss and forgetting about it and never coming back to it. The R is reflection. So what we do is we really encourage that people come back to what they said they were going to do and whatever that means for themselves and do it in a positive way. You know, we've got a lot of prompts in the book, that's like, celebrate the smallest of wins, even if it's that you're even reading the goal that you said you would do last week, like that's a win, you're still doing this, you're still sticking with it. That's wonderful. And then the T is trust and support this idea of trusting yourself that you can make small changes to make a bigger impact and make long term changes and finding that support whether it's, you know, a partner in the home that you're doing it with or your family could be your kids, or even just, you know, finding a buddy or, or connecting with a group, we have lots of resources and ideas and things and ways to connect in the group. So that was a long answer to what's my, my favorite part. But my favorite part of being the type A person that I am is, is that it's structured for people so that it can be, you know, as complex for someone who wants that hand holding or really simple for someone that's still in a structured way to help them be successful.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, Jen, Jen's ended up great. You know, there is, there's not one answer for how to really implement things. And that's, you know, we're always looking for it. But it's, it's very, it's very complex when you're trying to change behavior and incorporate new behavior, as they say, that changing your habits around food is harder than changing your religion. And I could definitely. Oh, wow. Yeah, I could see that, you know, it's people, it's so ingrained in us and personal, the way we eat and feed ourselves. So for people who are trying to change and trying to change their habits around the way they eat food, it can be very hard and destabilizing. So there's many things that go into it. And Jen just, you know, went over them wonderfully. And I kind of, I think of my favorite, and I think of, for me personally, and as someone that this is my work, and I do this, I still, I still have point, you know, things that I'm trying to work on or improve on. It's a journey. You know, it's never like you're just there perfectly eating and living. It's, you're always adjusting to what's going on around you. And I really like the trust, the inner trust of building that inner trust by showing up for yourself and sticking to what you said you would do, and showing yourself that you can improve and become better. That's something that I really resonate with lately. And it's, what I've been using with my kids is building this inner trust with yourself. But it, you know, goes through phases. When I'm not meal planning well, and I kind of get back into that, I'm, you know, I'm like, Oh, yes, this makes such a difference. And when I'm planning and have my food ready to go and just streamline, streamlines the whole experience. But I do love, and Jen said this, and this was my mom's answer for a lot of things when people were saying, well, what could I do to incorporate the mind? Like what's something simple to do? And my mom would always say, start with a salad, you know, green leafy salad, have an olive oil dressing on it, maybe add another vegetable, some cucumbers or tomatoes, maybe add some nuts in there. Maybe someday have fish on it, someday have chicken, but every day try to have a salad with some of these foods on it. And if you can do that one thing a day, build it into your habit. So it's just routine, you know, you're going to be having that salad, you're gonna be pretty well off and you're gonna feel pretty good too, because it's, you know, it's energizing to eat those foods.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. Yeah, I think there's because people often get overwhelmed with so many things in life and the way I see it is like just do the first step like just the one thing like you don't have to do everything just taking that first step and then going from there is magical.

Laura Morris:
And we make you do that in our six-week program. We only do what, we focus on one thing a week because we really, it is, it's so overwhelming. And then people, you know, give up or it's, they don't do any of it, right? And we all know that feeling. So yeah, just starting with one or two little things is your best bet and just kind of building from there.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I could not agree more. Well, I bet listeners are super eager to read the book and try out the online program. So you guys are so kind. Thank you so much. Laura and Jennifer are actually giving away a copy of the book and a spot in their online six-week program. So very excited about that. Check out my Instagram. I'll be posting all about this show this week, and there will be posts there where people can't enter to win that. So thank you both so much. There'll be a full transcript and links to everything in the show notes. So how can people best get the book, follow your work, all the things.

Laura Morris:
Yeah, so we have an Instagram account and a website, both the official MIND diet, the website is officialminddiet.com. We're on Facebook as well. You can get our book on Amazon or through our website as well. We can be contacted through our website or Instagram. We love to answer any questions that people have for us or many questions about our program. Please shoot them our way. We love to hear what people have to say and what's working and not working for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, thank you both so much. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because of how grateful I am for everything, what is something that you're both grateful for?

Laura Morris:
I go through my greatfills every day and I usually just do something simple from the day. So I will say I am so grateful that I have the opportunity to share this brilliant work and to work with Jennifer and Melanie for having us on here to share with your listeners. I'm very grateful for that opportunity to share all this. So thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you.

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Jennifer. Yeah, thanks. My answer is similar and I'm grateful for people. I'm grateful for the connection. And I think that's one thing we didn't get a chance to talk about was sort of the other lifestyle practices that are helpful for green health. And one of those is social connection. And I just always, you know, when we do these sorts of things, I feel filled up meeting new people and hearing the idea of disseminating this work and others hearing it. So yeah, I feel grateful for that today. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
That's the way I feel after these shows as well. I just, I'm just so grateful and I love connecting with people like you guys. And I've been, like I said, I've been following The Mind Diet for years and so fascinated by it. And so this opportunity to, you know, read the book and interview you has just been so amazing and, and thank you because you're doing so much for really changing people's health for the better, especially when it comes to the brain. And you're doing it in such a way that's so approachable, so implementable. People can actually do it, take that first step. So, so thank you guys both. I'll be eagerly looking at all of your future research in the future.

Laura Morris:
Awesome. Thank you so much, Melanie. Thanks, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Have a good rest of your day both of you. Bye. You too. Bye. Bye. You too

Jennifer Ventrelle:
Thanks. Bye-bye.