The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #339 - Vincent Pedre

TRANSCRIPT

Vincent Pedre
There's not just one gut diet that's right for every person that actually there's different gut types depending on the level of severity of their gut issues. Stressed out people had a hard time healing their gut even when they were doing the right diet and taking all the right supplements. Things just didn't move in as fast of a direction as they could if they addressed their nervous system over activation.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying here in. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this.

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast friends. It was such an honor to have Vincent Pedre back on the show today. He is such a legend in the world of gut health and his new book, the gut smart protocol is such an incredible exploration on the latest when it comes to as well as how you can actually find a personalized protocol that will heal your gut. I loved the tangents we went on in today's episode. We talked all about what he learned and what it was like when he visited with the Hadza tribe. I was particularly fascinated to learn about their gut microbiome, which is epic in its diversity levels. And yet they follow a very limited diet. What's going on there? What's the secret? To that point, we talk about what are probably the two keys to gut diversity. We talk about a fascinating and sort of shocking study on the role of fiber versus fermented foods when it comes to gut health. We also talk about the idea of intuitive eating and how can you eat intuitively if your gut bugs are telling you to eat processed food and sugar. We have an epic discussion on the importance of clean coffee. You guys know I'm obsessed with that and so much more.

These show notes for today's episode will be at melanieavalon.com slash gut smart. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group. I have biohackers intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love and then check out my Instagram. Find the Friday announcement post and again comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things. Without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr. Vincent Pedre. Hi friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is with a repeat guest. That's how you know you're really in for something special. This guest actually was on this show. One of my early shows back in 2020, Dr. Vincent Pedre. I originally had him on for his book Happy Gut and now he is back for his newer book, The Gut Smart Protocol. Revitalize your health, boost your energy and lose weight in just 14 days with your personalized gut healing plan.

And friends, you guys know I'm obsessed with gut health. I have my own history of digestive struggles and health struggles related to that.

Melanie Avalon
And I am just so appreciative and grateful for people spreading awareness about the role of the gut in our health. So I was really excited to dive into this book and there were quite a few things that were completely fascinating to me that I'm sure we will touch on in today's show. Also, the protocol in the book is overwhelmingly comprehensive. The quiz that you take for it is probably, I mean, it's one of the longer intake type quizzes. It's definitely not like a click bait quiz. It's a quiz to actually give you a personalized protocol of what to eat and why and how to really address not only your gut issues, but issues that extend beyond that.

Dr. Pedre is literally just a legend in this world. He is the medical director of Pedre, an integrative health and founder of Dr. Pedre Wellness. He's the CEO, founder of Happy Gut Life. And like I said, he has these bestselling books and he also has a coffee line, Happy Gut Coffee. You guys know I'm obsessed about talking about the importance of clean coffee, so we can talk about that as well. So Dr. Pedre, thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Speaker 1
So great to be back after so many years and so much has evolved and changed and yet there's a lot of things that have kind of stayed the same and I feel like I've just been shouting from the rooftops for years and still people are waking up. It's not common knowledge yet that the gut is the foundation for everything.

And I think we're getting to an inflection point five years, six years later from the last time you interviewed me but still there's a lot of work to be done to kind of dispel the myths and the indoctrination that people have about health and what really creates health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I have so many thoughts there. So appropriately enough, you touched on some of the things I was going to ask you about right at the beginning. So this is perfect. One, well, yes, I can't believe it's been like half a decade, which is wild. I'm really curious to know things that have changed since then, but just to quickly comment on the still lack of awareness.

My habit with this show is the night before I always go and I read every single Amazon review of the person's book. First of all, stunningly overwhelming, incredible, amazing reviews for this book. I mean, everybody is just shouting it from the rooftops. When I go into that world, like the more commercial review world, I'm so steeped in this topic and I haven't for years, I forget that this is still new to people. So reading the reviews, I'm like, oh my goodness. I mean, this is incredible that this is completely changing people's world. And so thank you for getting it out there more. But back to that first part, the gut, I feel like and the microbiome and everything is so like, we're always learning more. It's just like this black hole of never ending findings. When you sat down to write this book, what inspired it? Was it that you, it just had been a while since the previous book, did something happen that you wanted to focus on? I'm really curious when you actually read it, what had changed from the prior book.

Speaker 1
Yeah, in between when I first actually conceived of Happy Gut, which goes all the way back to 2012, that's how how far back I had actually first come up with the idea for Happy Gut. And Happy Gut didn't publish until December 29th, 2015.

So if you can just put that into time frame, three years later is when finally I had my first book out. And I don't know that people realize how long it takes to put a book together. Like any health book, because it requires so much thinking around the science, around how to make it understandable and accessible to the lay person, how to make it applicable to as many people as possible. It is quite a challenge because, as you know, there's a lot of different people out there. And it's almost impossible that one program is going to fit everyone. And even with that, I think I accomplished something quite amazing with Happy Gut, over 100,000 copies have been sold. And you can go on Amazon and see all of the the positive reviews. But in between the time that I conceived of Happy Gut and when the GutSmart protocol was published, I had so much more experience with gut patients, just because of the renown that Happy Gut brought me. And I started realizing that there's not just one gut diet that's right for every person that actually there's different gut types depending on the level of severity of their gut issues. Whereas, yes, I had accomplished a pretty amazing feat by creating a one size fits all program in Happy Gut. I wanted to come out with a follow up to that, which almost almost is like a prequel, in a sense, because Happy Gut was heavy on talking about testing, about using supplements. And I really wanted to kind of go back to the basics and come out with a diet first protocol that just showed we cannot make just one diet for everyone. And if you look at all the health books out there, they are basically a one size fits all. Almost every health book like, you know, fat is good, fat is bad, the keto diet, the paleo diet, carnivore diet, they're all expounding that this is the only way that there is only one dogma. And yet from working with patients, what I found was, if you have severe gut issues, I have to tailor your diet differently from someone who's coming in with moderate issues, or someone who just has some mild issues. I wanted to address that in this second book. And that's what led me to create the very complex and thorough gut smart quiz, which you mentioned, it's not a clickbait quiz that you only take 10 questions, and it gives you your gut type, it's actually quite thorough, and it gives you a score anywhere between 150 and 450. And depending on your score, you're classified as mild, moderate, or severe. And the great thing is, is that, you know, you have a qualitative score, you know, mild, moderate, or severe, but you also have a number score that you can follow, because the biggest category is the moderate category, you know, that's where the majority of people kind of like a bell curve, like most people are going to fall in the moderate,

Speaker 1
based on your results, the diet protocol is designed to fit your needs. And there's not that many books out there that actually has a personalized program based on the results of a quiz that tells you how you can eat for your gut type.

So that was part of it was just based on my years of experience after writing Happy Gut, I felt like another gut book was important. And also because I had evolved so much in the knowledge and the research, everything that was coming out about the gut, the gut microbiome has progressed so much. And, and then the other part of it was my, well, there were a couple of things, I had new experiences, I had gone and spent time with the hunter gatherers, the Hadza tribe and in Tanzania. And that brought a lot of new insights into what makes a healthy gut. And, and also just my passion around the importance of the vagus nerve, and stress management, as part of gut healing, because one thing that I noticed, while taking care of gut patients in New York, and also outside of New York, was that stressed out people had a hard time healing their gut, even when they were doing the right diet and taking all the right supplements, things just didn't move in as fast of a direction as they could, if they address their nervous system over activation, and the inner trauma, the activation, the dysfunction of the vagus nerve. So I wanted to include all of that in this book. And I felt like there were there were pieces that I just didn't get around to and Happy Gut being my first early book. It's almost like The Gut Smart Protocol is the book that I wish I had written first, but I couldn't have written it first, without all of the experiences that I had in caring for patients after Happy Gut published.

Melanie Avalon
So when I took the quiz, I got a 193, which is in the moderate category. So like you said, fitting that bell curve. I have so many questions about how you came up with this because in the past, this was years ago, because you mentioned how there's not one diet for everyone. And I agree completely.

And especially when it comes to foods that seem, people seem to tolerate versus cause distress for them, you know, even for example, like fermented foods, which we are like, Oh, you know, the, the crowning jewel of food for, for the gut. And you talked about the study comparing it to fiber and we can, you know, maybe dive into that, but like even in your protocol, like some affirmative foods for some people are too much of them as a problem. And you don't even have fermented foods on the, in the severe category. So like the nuance of figuring this out. And like back in the day, I had made this chart, which I eventually turned into an app, but it was 11 different compounds and foods like gluten, fod maps, histamine, sulfites, all these different things, because I was so overwhelmed. I was like, I don't know, like if I eat a food, like what am I reacting to? What actually is good for me? So I, I was trying to like, you know, make sense of it all. So for you to sit down and decide or figure out these charts, because it's an extensive list of foods, but people can eat these different categories. And I promise I will get to a question here, but, but just leading up to it. Oh, and then to make it even more complicated. So you mentioned living with the Hadza, you talk in the book about how the Hadza don't quote, eat the rainbow, which we hear is this great thing that we should eat all this variety and diversity. They eat not that many different foods and they have, you know, a great microbiome. So the amount of confusion here, here's the question of like, how do you sit down and create this personalized plan? Like these are the foods for these different categories. I just, it's overwhelming to me, honestly.

Speaker 1
Yeah, no, I hear you. I consulted with different experts in the field, consulted with a friend of mine who's a fermentation expert to better understand how people react to to ferment. And I kind of integrated and synthesized different dietary approaches like the FODMAP diet, the SIBO diet, and just even with my own experience seeing how people react to different things. And like you said, like I think it's probably one of the most exhaustive lists that have ever been created with categorizing foods for for people depending on their their gut smart quiz score. But it's not an exact and precise science.

And that's why in the book, I talk a lot about eating intuition and like really listening to your body and like learning how to tune in to what causes a reaction, what doesn't cause a reaction. And I know, like you said, it can be very confusing. And a lot of things that we give names that we say are being caused by, you know, conditions like mast cell activation syndrome, histamine intolerance. But a lot of that is actually being caused by an imbalance in the gut microbiome and inflammation of the gut lining and leaky gut. So if you can fix the underlying imbalance, then you can actually reverse a lot of these conditions, you know, where people are just second guessing what can I eat all the time, you know, and it feels like going out to eat is like stepping through a landmine and not knowing where the minds are and when something's not going to agree with you. And that was me before I discovered gut healing, I would get sick a lot from eating out and I couldn't, I couldn't see the pattern until I saw it.

Melanie Avalon
And even to that point, then also the timeline of the microbiome changing, I've been fascinated by this forever because we know, for example, and you talk about this in the book, like you mentioned different antibiotics that you can take and the amount of time it can take to recover from that, like six months or so, which is crazy. And then at the same time, we know that you talk about how dietary changes can change the composition in 48 hours. So it's like, how fast are these changing?

Speaker 1
And some changes can be quite rapid and one thing, well, a couple of things here, just a quick mention on the recovery from antibiotics, they've actually shown in studies that if you take a probiotic at the same time as an antibiotic, not at the same time, you know, sequentially like you don't want to take the antibiotic pill and then take the probiotic because it's going to kill the probiotic, but you take them at different times during the day while you're taking antibiotics and afterwards they've shown that the gut can recover faster than if the person didn't take a probiotic with the antibiotic. But there's a lot of factors here and one of the studies where they looked at the gut two seasons in Tanzania and Africa, there's the rainy season and there's the more dry season.

And depending on the season, the diet's going to skew a little bit more one way or another during the rainy season, there might be more honey, berries, and during the dry season, they're going to be eating more, more tubers. And they found that there were certain bacteria that tended to predominate during each of the seasons and they would almost appear as if they disappeared during the alternate season and yet when they checked again in the following year during the same season, the same bacteria would come back. So even though they weren't being detected in the stool, there was probably still a seed colony of those bacteria that were able to come back once they were getting the nutrients that supported those bacteria. The prebiotic nutrients from the foods that we eat can dictate the type of microbiome that we have. And that also indicates that the microbiome is not a static thing. It's actually constantly changing and adapting to our environment, which is primarily influenced by the foods we eat and when we eat.

Melanie Avalon
So it's funny, when you were talking about the study with the probiotic and the antibiotics, I was waiting with bated breath because I was like, what is he going to say? Is he going to say that it helps or hurts? The reason I say that is the majority of the studies that I've seen say what you just said, that taking the probiotic either not directly at the same time as the antibiotic, but during the course of the antibiotics is helpful. But then there was that one study that showed that if you take probiotics, I think it was immediately right after antibiotics, it actually slowed down the return to your normal gut flora. And then of course, that one study sticks with me forever.

I'm like, don't take probiotics right after antibiotics. But it's like, how do we even know? Because there's so many other studies showing something different. I'm just talking more about the confusion here.

Speaker 1
And there's always going to be that, you know, like if you, if you start going into the literature, I think there's always people trying to disprove things out there, but I can tell you just from my clinical experience that more than not taking antibiotics during and after antibiotics helps to keep the gut healthier. And especially so a lot of the work I've done with women who tend to have a propensity towards yeast overgrowth after having been on antibiotics for ear infections or even for any other types of infections, their guts benefit greatly from rebalancing and it can actually take a while to be able to rebalance the gut ecosystem when there's a yeast overgrowth.

The yeast can be quite fastidious.

Melanie Avalon
Do you find that Saccharomyces Bloridae is like really helpful for that? We were talking about that recently. I had Dr. Ruscio recently on the show and we talked about that for a while.

Speaker 1
Well, I mean, there's good research on Saccharomyces boulardii in terms of like, travelers diarrhea, helping the gut recover, protection of the gut lining, stimulating secretory IgA, especially for people who have low gut immunity can be really great. And the other thing about it is that it's not a bacteria. So you can take it while taking antibiotics and the antibiotic is not going to kill the Saccharomyces. So overall, there's a lot of benefits. There's the occasional rare exception where it doesn't agree with the person, but that's still, I find the minority less than 2% of people.

Melanie Avalon
Going back to the Hadza, so I feel like this is the thing to do in this world. I've had so many guests on this show who at some point went and stayed with them.

First of all, I'm just so curious about this experience. So the tribe, are they just accustomed to us coming over there and hanging out with them?

Speaker 1
Yeah, it's interesting because the only way to get to them is you have to go through a person who has contact and the ability to do that. Obviously, they're hunter-gatherers, but they're not unaware of the world outside of that.

And yet, they're still living in their traditional ways, living out in the wilderness, in migratory, hunting and gathering for food, all of that. So, I went with a small group of 10 people with a couple of other guides and stuff and a translator. And you just can imagine you're going into the middle of nowhere out in the bush in Tanzania. And we had the privilege, I'm going to call it the privilege, because not everyone can do this, of being able to stay there in the vicinity of where their camp was. Because they'll camp in a certain area for maybe a couple of months and then move on with sleeping bags. And they set up a fire for the night time. They had a person out at watch, making sure there were no animals. I was thinking hyenas, lions. But we were actually in an area that I think was further away from most of those animals. And during the day, we just got to hang out with them and experience the magic of human communication when there is no ability to understand each other's language. And yet, we could understand through gestures. The tribal chief was teaching us how to handle a bow and arrow that they had made by hand. And if you can imagine, it was just one of those funny things where this bow is so tight that when he gave it to me and I put the arrow on it and I tried to pull it back. Could you not? I could barely pull it. And I work out at the gym, like I'm not a weak person. I do upper back, upper core exercises. I could not pull that arrow all the way back to my ears the way you're supposed to. And then the chief takes it and he just pulls it back as if it's just like a rubber band. And I tried again and I'm like, I can't.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. So they're down with like submitting poop samples and stuff like that to doctors.

Speaker 1
Yeah, so there were some people who just had the foresight to, I think, the foresight and connection with the Hadza and good relationship through translators to be able to collect their poop. And there was one study that they did where they compared the Hadza to an Italian group of controls. And when you think about that, that's actually kind of a really good comparison because the Mediterranean diet is one of the healthiest diets that we know of on the planet. And it's also quite varied in colors and vegetables and things like that. But it's also going to have pasta and processed foods and stuff. And so they collected stool samples from Hadza's in the range of from eight years old, all the way into their 60s. And the Italian group was matched somewhat by age. And in that study, they found that the Hadza just had a higher diversity in their gut microbiome and the Italian group. And it's also interesting because there's not one microbiome that's perfect for every human on the planet. There's actually a lot of different microbiome signatures that are unique to the part of the world where the person lives and the types of foods that they eat. So it's not like saying that, oh, we should strive to have the microbiome of the Hadza because, no, we live in a different part of the world and we have different foods. But the important thing to note there is that they just had a much more diverse gut microbiome than the Italian cohort.

And I think a big part of that, I think there's two main reasons for that. Number one, they've barely if ever been in contact with antibiotics, like zero, zero. And I sat with the chief and through the translator, I kind of grilled him on that because I really wanted to know like, hey, what if someone has a pneumonia? Like, what do you do? And they have these, I think he thought I was trying to learn their herbal, their secret herbal remedies. And he's like, he didn't want to reveal them to me. I'm like, I don't want to, it's okay. Like, I don't want to know. I just want to know what you do in general. And I did understand from them that they were aware that there are centers where they can get treatment. And on a very rare occasion, if someone was really, really sick, they would actually travel into like a town and get treatment. So, you know, they're not, they're not like completely innocent of antibiotics, but it's rare. So it would be not, you know, it would be a very rare case in the tribe if someone had to have antibiotics. But the most part they're treating them with herbal remedies that have been passed down from generation to generation. So number one, I think it's just the lack of exposure to antibiotics. So they already have a head start with that.

Melanie Avalon
That's the second.

Speaker 1
Yeah, tell me, what do you think the second one is?

Melanie Avalon
I was going to guess antibiotics for the first one. I was going to ask if they had, I'm glad you answered my question, if they ever do have traditional antibiotics.

Is the second one the soil, like the dirt, on the food?

Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say the second one is just the the lack of over sanitization, over cleanliness, like their connection with nature, their contact with the natural world, like digging up. I went hunting and gathering with them and they had dug up a root vegetable out of the ground and they were just cutting it open and we were eating it raw right out in the field. Not sure that that's probably the best thing for a Western gut. But their gut is actually capable of handling stuff like that. So I think it's the lack of antibiotics and it's the exposure to dirt and the microbiome of the soil and of other... They had dogs with them that hang out. So dogs are microbiome multipliers. So yeah, I think those are two big indicators.

And the reason we're talking about this and why it's so important and why I focused part of the book on that is that the hot side don't have a lot of the Western diseases that we know. So they don't get diabetes. They don't have high blood pressure. They don't get obesity. They don't get cancer. They don't have dementia. And you have to look at that and see, well, what is the factor? What's different? And something big that's different is their microbiome. And then we can match that to studies they've done on centenarians and they've looked at the microbiome of centenarians versus let's say 80-year-olds who are on seven different medications and have heart disease and all sorts of inflammatory internal chronic diseases. And they found that the microbiome of centenarians have bacteria that reduce inflammation, that actually do not promote inflammation in the body and help the body resolve inflammation faster.

Melanie Avalon
If I had unlimited funds, I would just, well, I would do a lot of things, but one thing I would do is I would just do studies, like just fund studies. It would be so cool to see a study.

I'm just thinking now, people controlled for antibiotic exposure and then comparing a diet, like a traditionally diverse diet, but from conventional, you know, non-organic food compared to a more limited diet, but like organic and soil exposure and see the effects that that has on people. I would love to see that. That would be so interesting.

Speaker 1
I think that would be a great study because I think we have a lot of held belief systems that may not be completely correct around that.

Melanie Avalon
I think so. It's really paradigm shifting.

In my head right now, the visual I have is because food is so important. And in a way, it's what we have to focus on a lot because we're eating every day and it does have an effect. And still, there's all these other factors that I think people are not quite taking into account as much.

Speaker 1
It's just actually quite sad to me because I do a lot of toxicity testing on patients. I'm doing testing on people who are eating organic, like people who overall eat a pretty healthy diet.

You know, maybe they eat out once in a while, but overall they're eating quite a healthy diet and I find BPA, Triclosan, which is an antibacterial, antifungal that's added to soaps, pesticides of different sorts, flame retardants. It doesn't matter what you're doing, I think we're living in the toxic stew that we've created for each other and it's very hard to not get exposed.

Melanie Avalon
I could not agree more and you're touching on so many things I think about a lot. One of them, I don't know the answer to this.

The common theme that people will say, especially just after all the people I've interviewed and books I've read, typically people will err on the side of if you have to choose between eating conventional, like if you can only have it, but it's not organic and it's going to have pesticides, but at least you're getting the fruit slash vegetables that you should have it. I don't know that that's technically the case because when I see it in my mind, I'm like, if I'm putting this in my body and it's just saturated and pesticides, I don't know that that's a good thing for me to eat.

Speaker 1
It's kind of like negating itself, but we also know, and I know that the non-organic movement argues against this, but organic plants have higher antioxidant concentrations than non-organic because that's how they fight off disease. And plants that are being sprayed with pesticides don't have to develop as many of these antioxidants because the pesticides are acting as part of that for them, so they don't have that resilience, adaptability that is so important that we get from eating those plants.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And then like with the, I'm curious, because earlier you were saying how sometimes people do studies kind of to like prove a contrary point, which I completely agree with. There's a lot of talk and you mentioned it already and it's in the book. But that study, I mean, I feel like every now and then there's like the study that comes out and it's like the study.

So that it was the fiber fermented food study showing that, you know, small amounts of fermented foods had a more beneficial effect on the gut microbiome than fiber, which the clickbait takeaway is fermented foods are better than fiber. And at the same time, like how much of that like, do you think that study was set up to show that are there more factors that we should take into account like kind of like with your, with your protocol where fermented foods work for some people and not others based on where they're at? Does it have to do with other factors beyond that?

Speaker 1
I think there's a lot of factors there. That study had about 18 people in each group. Most of them were women, most of them were white women, and no offense, but it wasn't a very diverse group. So that's one first critique of the study that it didn't represent across population of people.

But also the study only looked at a high fermented foods diet versus a high fiber diet. If I were to like, let's go back to your experiment, like we have unlimited money, we can design whatever study we want. I would have actually designed this study with four different groups, and maybe some sort of crossover. But I would have done a high ferment group, a high fiber group, a normal diet group, and then a group where we combine the ferments and the fiber. Because I think that this study kind of pinned fiber against ferments. But if you look at the fine details of the study, they actually looked at the effects of gut microbiome diversity when people ate fiber. And they found that the people who had the higher diversity to begin with, because of whatever habits they followed before the study, when they went on a high fiber diet, it actually down regulated their immune response.

Melanie Avalon
down-regulated.

Speaker 1
down regulated. So it provided control measures for the immune response.

So for people to understand, most people are walking around with an over up regulated immune response. Our immune systems are too reactive.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, like autoimmune conditions coming up.

Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly, or chronic fatigue or chronic inflammatory conditions, any chronic viral illness, things like that, where the immune system just doesn't know how to shut off. But interestingly, when they looked at the fiber group, if they started with a low diversity in their gut microbiome, so imagine a person who's been on a lot of antibiotics, then put on a high fiber diet, it actually upregulated their immune response. So fiber did a different thing depending on the baseline ecosystem, their gut microbiome and how diverse that microbiome is. And again, just for anybody who's listening, just to tie it back to diversity is what we want.

And, and I kind of, you know, go back to this study, because good on them, because no one is studying diet in this way, because there's not as much money to make off of a diet as there is off of a patented medication, right? But the fermented foods people, they were checking 19 different inflammatory markers, and everybody who was on the high fermented foods diet was found to drop their inflammatory markers. And I think that's super significant, because in my mind, the goal is going back to the gut smart protocol, and if you take the quiz and you test severe, so that you can't really incorporate fermented foods right now, the goal is for you to heal your gut enough that you can start incorporating fermented foods, so that you can start really putting a dent in chronic inflammation in your body.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, do you know if any of them had severe dysbiosis to start or were they normal baseline?

Speaker 1
Yeah, I think they were looking more at normal people. But what I can tell you is that the group that was put on the high fermented foods, they for the first four weeks, they felt kind of wonky. And they did feel a bit gassier. And they complained about bloating and stuff like that.

Because just think about people who are hard doing stuff like this. And they start, you know, adding in a bit more fiber, a bit more firm ends, they get bloated. And they're like, Oh, no, this is not good for me. And they stop. And what they found was that if they continued that eventually their gut actually adapted. And some of that might actually be the good bacteria in the fermented foods battling it out with bad bugs in the gut, and reclaiming territory to like a die off type effect, kind of like a die off effect. But the but what I tell my patients is, you know, I start very slow, even for somebody I think that can can really start incorporating fermented foods, because their gut diversity is low, and we want to really augment that and lower inflammation, I start low and increase very slowly, depending on how they can tolerate it to keep people comfortable. Because people don't no one wants to be bloated, right?

Melanie Avalon
No, which it's like the amount of time I have spent in therapy before talking about digestion is insane. So I know people do not like it.

So I do practice intermittent fasting, and I tend to eat massive quantities of a few different foods that work really well for me. It is a really high fiber diet, but it's a lot of foods that I just know I tolerate. So the reason I'm asking this is when you say low or high, I'm a bad person to quantify that because of the exuberant amount of quantities of food I eat, because I don't eat any processed food. So it's all in the real form. So when you're saying starting slow with fermented foods, practically, what does that look like? What is a lot of fermented foods versus

Speaker 1
It could be like starting choosing one. There's a lot of nuances that go into like if a person's working directly with me, I'm looking at gut microbiome markers, I'm looking at inflammatory markers, I'm looking at diversity, but I'm also looking to see if there are any food sensitivities because that can also play into the types of fermented foods that they can have.

For example, like I'm a big fan of kefir, but kefir might not be right for everyone depending on their sensitivity profiles with dairy or choosing the right kefir depending on whether they can tolerate dairy or not. But starting with a shot size, like it could be a small starting with a teaspoon, but maybe like a one ounce shot and then slowly increasing from there. But with things like sauerkraut, it could be like just starting with a half teaspoon of kraut juice and seeing how that sits because some people are so sensitive that if you have too much, it's going to cause so much die off. They're going to feel uncomfortable and then they're not going to be happy. They're not going to feel good and they're going to be unhappy with me as well. So I like for people to start slowly and you can always increase, but if you increase too quickly, if you start at higher doses, the good American way, like if a little is good, a lot must be even better, but you can end up with a lot of uncomfortable bloating, sometimes changes in bowel movements, diarrhea, constipation. So I like to do things slowly as a way to stress test the system and also see what a person tolerates and as they tolerate, they can increase.

Melanie Avalon
I had Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride on the show for the GAPS protocol, and I think that one is where you start with a teaspoon of sauerkraut juice and work your way up.

Question here, because you mentioned earlier about intuitive eating and how even with this whole, this incredible protocol that you've come up with, people, and this was a big takeaway I took from your book was, you know, this is an incredible tool and you have to have to listen to your gut, to your gut. You have to listen to what's working for you.

Speaker 1
And listen to your body, you know, because, because something that I, I found in a lot of the clients that I've worked with is that they've actually lost that connection with their body. It could be through trauma. It could be through just childhood experiences where they were taught to deny what they were feeling, and then they disconnected from their bodies and they stopped listening.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you have an incredible section on meditation and things like that. How do people listen to their body?

I was getting other flashbacks when you were talking about people getting, you know, initially with that in that study with the fermented food and the fiber, like originally with the fermented food having symptoms and then them resolving. How do people know, because we can't see the future, so how do we know if the symptom that we're experiencing is something that will pass and we should push through and accept versus it's a symptom that it's not working for us.

Speaker 1
It's a couple of decision points. You can either stay at the quantity, the dose that you're on, let's say fiber or fermented food, and not increase it while monitoring. Like, do you start feeling better on day two, day three, day four? Or are the symptoms just kind of continuing and then you need to back off and go back down and work your way back up slowly. You know, your body's telling you, like, this is how I'm gonna react, this is how the gut microbiome is gonna react to this. And then you have the power to make that decision.

You know, so part of it is understanding like, well, what actions can I take if this isn't working? Well, you know, it's common sense, but a lot of people don't even think about it. Like, well, just lower the dose back down, like go down to a really tiny dose and then see how you feel and then work your way back up. A lot about listening to the body is getting into ventral vagal state, like activating the vagus nerve, getting out of the fight or flight response, like getting embodied, like feeling feelings in your body and using things like breath work, meditation, but it can also be like embodied practices like yoga, tai chi, getting out in nature. Anything that gets you out of your mind and into your body can help you start to connect with what your body is speaking and start listening to that. And it's like a muscle that the more you do it, the more you become in tune with even like just craving, like you might feel like you're craving a certain type of food because your body needs it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, to that point, one of the reasons that I love practicing intermittent fasting the way I practice it, which is not in line with what, I don't know, the majority of people would say is good, but I do one meal a day in the evening, like my last thing of the day. And honestly, one of the reasons I love that so much is the idea now to me of eating, because during the day, life is hectic, I'm working, it's a very sympathetic state.

I need to be in the parasympathetic state when I'm eating, so I refuse to eat until I am done with work, because I need to be in a relaxed state. So it's something that I don't actually talk about that much, but that is a key reason I like eating as the last thing.

Speaker 1
That's a big reason why I will actually most of the time I'm eating smaller meals during the day like they're and they might be more protein forward lower in carbs and then I'll reserve my carb meal for the evening.

My biggest meal will be the evening meal because that's when I am more in parasympathetic more relaxed and and like you said like then your body's able to digest that better you know I've had patients but there's there's actually something to say about that because for example I have a patient very high stress lawyer he would get home and you know the kids are eating just get to the dinner table and just kind of like inhale his food as fast as possible he's starving and and then just feel sick to his stomach and I would tell him it's because you arrived at that dinner table going 60 miles per hour you didn't allow a transition for you to get into a parasympathetic state before you sat down to eat you know for people have very high stress jobs and you know maybe the the the partners at home and they're making dinner so as soon as they walk in dinner is ready but their body is not ready to eat yet so I talked to him about like having a mindfulness practice like maybe just taking five minutes and doing some breath work just to kind of activate that vagus nerve and get the body to chill out you know it's so important in order to be able to digest your food better.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I love this conversation so much.

I'm just thinking about what I do with my habits because I don't like pre-cook my meal or anything. So I don't just jump into the food. When I'm done with work, I like change the lighting. I put on my digestive like frequency, you know, music from YouTube. I have a glass of wine. I'll take like wine tasting notes. And then I like cook my food. So it's like a whole, I never just like jump in.

Speaker 1
to it. It's a process. And yeah, for me the same, like I, I love the, you know, the whole experience of cooking and, and combining flavors and herbs, spices and thinking about, okay, what do I want to make for tonight? It just like, you know, it brings it puts you into a joy state, right?

And from that joy state, then you're activating, you're releasing oxytocin, you know, you're getting oxytocin is the antidote to cortisol in the body. So it helps to like, relax your body, chill you out so that you can digest better. So, so yeah. And then for me, you know, different from you, like I really need a good amount of fuel, especially protein, to be able to function and feel well. And, and I think, you know, to, to your point, like, the important thing is to do what feels good to you. Like not to follow a dogma because somebody told you, this is what you should do. For me, you know, I'll typically work out early in the morning. And because of that, I'm hungry, so I need protein. So I'll have a protein breakfast, I'll have a protein lunch and a bigger dinner. But then on the weekend, I kind of reverse it, I'll still work out in the morning, but actually fast, and I won't eat until lunchtime. So my, my intermittent fasting comes on the weekends, when I don't need like, I feel like I need that protein to keep my brain power up to be able to be on with all of my tasks Monday through Friday. And on the weekend, I feel more relaxed, I can do without that morning meal, and I just wait until lunchtime to eat.

Melanie Avalon
I as well need the protein, but I'm able to have it all in the evening because we were in amounts of it. My most recent neurotic thing, I don't know if it's neurotic, but the thing I've been doing with my meal composition intentionally is I've been eating a lot more steak, and I was eating very tender filet mignon and very tender bison filet.

I realized it was too tender, it was taking away from the chewing, which I find the chewing process slows down my eating and makes me more intentional. I stopped getting filets and started getting really tough cuts of steak so that it would force me to eye of brown, which is really lean still, but it's really tough because it forces me to A, I have to get a mallet out and hammer it, and then I have to chew it, I have to tenderize it, then I have to chew it more slowly. So I literally consciously change to tough steak to increase this intentional awareness around my eating. That's the tangents I go on.

Speaker 1
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I mean, I think slowing down like chewing like too many people they eat very quickly. And that also affects the whole process and the body's ability to break down food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. And I love in the book, you have the pre, the during, and the post intuition, eating intuition. So basically how people can do this and actually practically implement this. And it's really great because people just don't talk about this that much.

Or if they do, I feel like that's the entirety of the subject that they're talking about. So you do a really nice job of bridging it all together.

Speaker 1
I think the post is very important, that moment of checking in to ask yourself, how did what I just ate, how did it make me feel? Do I feel tired?

Do I feel mentally foggy? Do I feel sleepy now? Am I craving more sugar? I think it's very important because surprisingly, a lot of people don't do that self-met analysis and then they just keep repeating the same pattern over and over because they're not really making the connection between like, oh, when I eat this, I feel this way and then I do this.

Melanie Avalon
To that point, kind of devil's advocate, could you make the argument that if a person is coming from a very conventional diet, very dysbiotic microbiome, a population of a microbiome, which is not supporting their health and the cravings for healthy food, that you kind of have to turn off your intuition right at the beginning when you're committing to a new healthier diet, because quite possibly, intuitively, you have a microbiome composition that is telling you to eat things you shouldn't be eating. So the intuitive thing would actually be to eat the bad foods.

Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a good quandary that you bring up because you know, when people are asking about intuition, well, it's like, well, what if my brain is telling me to eat more sugar? Well, you know that that's not good. I use the example of like when I used to, I used to do a lot of yoga when I was in my doctor training in my residency. And I always notice like when I came back super relaxed and in parasympathetic state from a yoga class, like I didn't crave anything that was bad for me. Like I wanted to eat greens. I wanted to eat vegetables. I wanted to eat healthy foods and versus like being post call and like wanting a slice of pizza. So I do think that that that brings in the reason that I put so much emphasis on the mind body work in even in in this second book, because that's what gets you into that right intuitive state where you're actually listening to what your body really needs.

But it's also true to say that sometimes if you have yeast overgrowth, for example, it's going to hijack your brain and you're going to illogically crave sugar. Even when you think you shouldn't be eating it, it's just like it just overtakes your brain. And the other thing I was going to add to that is that a lot of times when you're not feeling well, it's going to be hard to do the post analysis because maybe you already arrived to dinner already bloated. And then you eat and you're more bloated, but you already started bloated. So you're kind of kind of lost in the in the sea of bloating. And it's hard to tell. Well, I don't know how these foods are affecting me. And that's why, you know, I wanted to simplify it with a gut smart quiz and, you know, very clearly tell people, you know, these are the things that you can eat. But also, these are the things that should be out of your diet, like added processed sugars.

Melanie Avalon
Well, something I have to ask you about with intuition before you go. So coffee, coffee, coffee, coffee, intuition with coffee. So you have a coffee line. I'm fascinated that you have this line because there's definitely controversy out there.

Like some people will say coffee is not good for your gut. I feel like it's the whole thing that we could say about all the things, even like alcohol, food that it's really about what's in there. So, you know, does it have these pesticides and mold and toxins? Is it high antioxidant? What brought you to wanting to make a coffee?

Speaker 1
line. There was a couple of things. One, actually, if you go back to Happy Gut, the 20-day program is a program where I tell people to cut coffee out because of my belief at the time, it's irritability to the gut and also just its overstimulation. But what I found is that, well, a couple of things.

People always ask me, well, when can I put my coffee back in? You cannot take away coffee from people. There are over 150 million American adults who drink coffee every single day, and coffee is one of the most consumed beverages worldwide. Like 2 billion cups of coffee are served every day. So we're not getting away from coffee, and what I also realize is that with coffee, there's a lot of toxicity that people are being exposed to that they may not realize. Coffee is one of the most pesticide sprayed plants on the planet, one of the top 10 crops with that. And if the coffee beans are of not good quality, you're going to get mold mycotoxins in the coffee. Depending on how the coffee is prepared, sometimes some of those mycotoxins can be deactivated with the roasting process. The dark roast is going to have the most deactivation. But still, the quality of the bean is super important. There was actually a company that also got flagged because of some heavy metals in their coffee. These are things that we don't even think about, that there could be heavy metals in coffee, that there could be pesticides in our coffee, or mycotoxins in the coffee. And then the other thing is how the coffee beans are roasted, because a lot of roasting is done on drum roasters, contact roasting. And that process is a little bit more difficult to control. It has to be done with a lot of skill. And it's still even done with a lot of skill. It's still possible that because the beans are coming in direct contact with the heat source, that some of those beans are going to get over roasted, and then you get those glycosylation end products that cause aging and senescence and are not good for the body. So there's a lot of things to think about coffee just from the perspective of the beans. And then the majority of people are getting their coffee to-go, and these to-go cups that are lined with plastic, and drinking microplastics with their coffee without even knowing it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, such a problem. And with the roasting, like if it's over roasted, that's breaking down the antioxidant, the CGA content of the coffee.

Speaker 1
Yeah. And also depending on the roasting process, it can make the coffee a bit more acidic or just make it feel more sour.

So we're actually switched our roasting. We had started with a contact roaster and we've moved to a facility that uses air roasting, which is very rare in the United States, but the air roasting removes the issue of over-roasting the beans. The roast is being actually done by a computer that's supervising the temperature inside. The beans never come into contact with the surface. They're just being circulated in the air and the roaster can actually know how well the bean has been roasted all the way to the center. So if you look at a bean, if you crack a bean open that's been contact roasted on a drum versus an air roast, you're going to see that an air roasted bean is actually roasted evenly all the way to the center. And the other thing is that the air-roasting reduces the chlorogenic acid content of the being more than contact roasting, and the chlorogenic acid is what's responsible for that sour stomach, acidy feeling that can cause acid reflux, heartburn, and people who are sensitive. So you're able to achieve a low acid coffee that preserves the antioxidants, does not have glycosylation in products, and is just overall healthier for you. So that's what we've done with Happy Gut Coffee.

Melanie Avalon
So with the CGA, because that does have an antioxidant property with it going down, it still preserves the antioxidant potential from it?

Speaker 1
Yeah, but at the same time, you know, because there's other polyphenols, antioxidants in the coffee, but if the CGA is too high, it actually gives you that sour stomach feeling that doesn't feel so great.

Melanie Avalon
Here's the thing with information and especially like book writing and it's like if you change your mind or if you just put out a different opinion than you had prior, then you're not being consistent. But then if you don't change your opinion, then you're not updating based on the science.

Have people given you any like kickback for not recommending coffee before and not having a coffee line? I'm just very curious.

Speaker 1
Not at all. Not at all.

Actually, 99.99% of people are just thrilled and amazed that I've come out with an organic, mold-free, toxin-free coffee that is low in acid and easy on the gut. And also tastes great because there are other brands out there that have low acid coffee, but when you taste it, it's bitter. That's also part of the, you know, the contact roasting also increases the chances of bitterness versus the air roasting.

Melanie Avalon
I have to look into this air roasting more, and I will say just with coffee, it's hard press to, you were mentioning how prevalent it is, and even with people drinking coffee that is not that good for you clearly, because basically there's so many studies out there on coffee, and the majority of them, from what I've seen, are very supportive of the event, especially like cognitive benefits of coffee.

Speaker 1
100% and for Parkinson's or people with dementia, there's so many benefits.

Melanie Avalon
Longevity.

Speaker 1
Yeah, longevity. The polyphenols, coffee increases the secretion of GLP-1 naturally. So yeah, there's always going to be contradictory studies, but I think overwhelmingly, like as long as you're not overdoing coffee, I think when people who are drinking too much coffee, it's not good for them either.

But anything that's done, not in moderation, is not good for you.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, yeah, that is absolutely awesome.

Do you find that it stimulates because we were talking about that, like the parasympathetic state, the sympathetic state, the vagus nerve, do you find that the stimulation of it is beneficial for people or can it be problematic with that whole world?

Speaker 1
You mean the coffee, like stimulating the gut?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and like, yeah, having coffee.

Speaker 1
in your life. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people actually benefit from I don't want to say it's a laxative effect, but you know, the the effect that coffee helps them go. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. That was definitely me. So awesome. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1
I actually also found, you know, because I hadn't, I actually had not drunk coffee for seven years, believe it or not, because I'm one of those slow metabolizers that gets jittery with coffee. I was very surprised.

I was the type that would go to Starbucks and get a coffee or, you know, get a coffee out at coffee shops. And when I first started testing beans and came out with my coffee, what I noted was I didn't get jittery from it.

Melanie Avalon
I was going to say, I was going to comment on that because I think, I think oftentimes what people are, I mean, definitely like caffeine can make you jittery, but I think it's can be a lot of the other things in the coffee too, that people can react.

Speaker 1
I think it's a lot of the other toxins, but something else that I learned is because we are a dark roast and our newer roast that we came out with through the air roaster is actually a medium to dark. It's almost the dark. It's like one level down from a dark, but the darker roast actually has a bit less caffeine, so less of that jittery effect that coffee can give some people.

People may not realize that a light roast actually has more caffeine and is more likely to make you jittery than a dark roast.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions out there with so much. We could have a whole conversation on coffee.

Oh, I would be... We didn't get to this, but listeners can get your book to read all about it because you do talk in the book about, we didn't even talk about any of this, about the gut's connection to I think seven different parts of the body. But one of them is like the skin microbiome and how things can affect acne.

Speaker 1
Gut skin, gut lungs, gut immune system, gut metabolism, brain, skin, like you said, yeah, the gut and leaky gut affect every single system in the body.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, we didn't even mention the word leaky gut yet. The reason I thought about it is something I love doing with coffee. And I'm wondering now, I don't know if this has an effect on the skin microbiome or not. But I, my ritual is after I wash my face, I splash coffee all over my face. Because I find that it the reason I started doing it was because I was using all these products back in the day, they would have like coffee extract and like caffeine. And I was like, why don't I just put the coffee straight on my face. So I started doing that. And I've been doing it for years. I love it.

It wakes me up. I feel like it makes my skin glow. I don't know if it's affecting my skin microbiome. But now that I think about it more, maybe. So yeah, just a little fun thing that people can do with clean, clean coffee, like, like yours.

Speaker 1
Yeah and like I'm a big fan of coffee enemas especially for patients with migraines or patients that need detox support and you don't the same same thing like you don't want to use a coffee for an enema that is not a clean organic coffee.

Melanie Avalon
I remember when I did my first coffee enema and I was, it was when I was in a, like, kind of a dark time with health and pretty fatigued and I did a coffee enema and I was like, I feel like I can climb Mount Everest. It was wild.

And so then, then I kind of got addicted and I had to lean myself off of doing them. But yeah, I think they can be really powerful. And like you said, really, really important to have quality stuff that you're putting up there. Very important.

Speaker 1
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
And also, I know coffee enemas can sound really crazy to people, or enemas in general, they're not that bad once you figure out how to do them, I promise, I'm just saying.

Speaker 1
No, they're not that bad. Not at all. You just have to make sure that the bathroom is nearby, just in case.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes. Also, I love colonics, by the way, but I also had to wing myself off of those.

Speaker 1
You don't want to actually overdo them because you can start to wash out the microbiome if you do too many of them.

Melanie Avalon
I can believe that for sure. They were game changers though when I was really constipated.

But yes, well this has been so amazing. Was there anything else you wanted to specifically touch on for listeners? I know we went down a lot of awesome rabbit holes.

Speaker 1
We did i mean i feel like we provided a lot of value for your listeners i think they'll get a lot of really good tidbits and things to think about from this podcast and and also go out and get a copy of my book that's my protocol and check it out.

Melanie Avalon
completely. And this is what... So I always... All the guests on the show, I pretty much... I mean, yeah, I always love their books because I wouldn't have them on the show if I didn't.

This is one of the books where listeners, if this resonates with you, like you actually... You need to get the book because you have to take the quiz and then you'll have the list of the foods. And then there's also incredible recipes. So it's a book that you definitely want this as a resource. Don't just stop with this podcast. So how can people get the book, get your coffee, all the things.

Speaker 1
The book and I can say, excitingly, both the book and the coffee are available on Amazon. So for anybody who has Amazon Prime, they can order both together.

And otherwise, we also have subscriptions through the websites you can earn. So you can actually get discounts on the coffee orders if you subscribe. So going to happygutlife.com.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome and I sometime I would I would like to pick your brain on Amazon. I've been debating if I should put my products on Amazon

Speaker 1
Oof, it's a monster.

Melanie Avalon
I know. So I hear.

Well, the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I really do appreciate the importance of mindset, which again is something that is a really heavy pillar of your book. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Speaker 1
You know, this year again, it has been an incredibly beautiful runway into the fall. And the weather in August and now in early September, it's been sunny in New York. It hasn't been too hot. The evenings have been cool. It's just been divine.

And last year was the same thing. We had like six weeks in a row of just like the most glorious weather that one would wish. Like, oh, if only New York could be this way year round, but it isn't. But I'm so grateful for just these beautiful days when I can hang out outside in my garden. Last night, I was actually sitting outside in the garden doing a little bit of work on my computer, catching up on things. And I just appreciate that I can do that this time of year because a few months from now, I won't be able to do that.

Melanie Avalon
What do you grow? Do you grow food?

Speaker 1
I have tomatoes, so I have some heirloom tomatoes in my garden. I also have jalapeno peppers.

I have lemon balm. I've got some spices, so I have Thai basil, regular basil. And I'm seeing, I don't know if it'll, I'm always testing out the squash or the eggplant plants. So this year I've got an eggplant and I'm hoping that it's going to make it because sometimes it's just like by the time I planted it, it's not enough time for it to grow and produce, but we'll see. I see the flowers out there, so I'm praying.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, I love this. I have an all indoor setup because I don't have a yard, but I grow like cucumbers, cilantro, strawberries. I have a sunflower that's like six feet tall that I thought was going to be six inches. I misread the packet. It started growing. It got to like a foot and I was like, I feel like I misread something here. And so it's literally like six feet. I named him Jack, like Jack the Beanstalk.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I love this conversation. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Pedra. This has been absolutely incredible. I'm so, so grateful for all that you do. I look forward to all your future work. We'll put links to everything in the show notes and would love to have you back on in the future. Just thank you so much.

Speaker 1
Thanks for having me and thanks for the work that you do in bringing this information to your audience.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. It's it's such a joy and such an honor. So have a beautiful a beautiful rest of your upcoming fall transition, New York Day.

Speaker 1
Thank you. I'm heading to a sound bowl healing in the park.

Melanie Avalon
That sounds fun. Well, activate that vagus nerve. All right, talk to you later and thank you.

Speaker 1
Thank you so much. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X.

Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com. And always remember, you got this.