The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #277 - Abby Epstein & Ricki Lake

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Oh my goodness friends, I am so incredibly honored and excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is about a topic that I know you guys are very obsessed with that I get questions about all the time that I personally have thought a lot about and that I have honestly never done a deep dive on on this show. And there truly could not be a better team to discuss this with than who I am here with today. So I am here with actress and talk show host, Ricki Lake and director Abby Epstein. They are award-winning producers, directors of so much incredible content, including the documentaries, the business of being born, and the business of birth control, as well as many others. And so I started I watched the business of birth control, the full version, definitely try out the 90 minute version, it blew me away at talking about the the very nefarious and unexpected history of what led to birth control being on the market, what the side effects are of it, how it actually affects women, the really interesting role of the feminist movement, both in encouraging birth control and kind of combating it the move towards more natural methods. It's a deep dive. I absolutely loved it. And I was telling them this via email, but we were supposed to record I think a few weeks ago, and then we pushed it a bit. And that gave me more time to dive even more into their content. So then I read their book, Your Best Birth, know all your options, discover the natural choices and take back the birthing experience. That blew my mind as far as all of the actually kind of we can talk about this, but kind of similar history where certain things were empowered by women that maybe ended up maybe being a little bit detrimental for women's lives in the birthing experience. And then like I mentioned, they also have their documentary, The Business of Being Born. So that is definitely up next on my list. And they have many other documentaries as well, like Weed the People and Breast Milk and so many things. So these women are just a powerhouse doing so much for women, especially when it comes to reproductive health. Just one little fun fact before we jump in, I realized this last night, Ricki, I was just telling you that I lived in LA for like 10 years, I actually came to your talk show in like 2012 or 2013.

Ricki Lake:
No way, the one I did in LA. Yes, at Culver? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Did you have a good experience? I did. I'm trying to remember like who the Oh, did you interview from Gilligan's Island? Was that possible?

Ricki Lake:
one of the women, Marianne, Marianne, yes. I think she was, she's since passed away, but I think she was on my show. I mean, I have this weird, like my brain, first of all, I'm old, and second of all, like I, when I do a show, back in the day, I was grinding out, you know, six, seven a week, and it was just like, I would retain this information, and then I'd get home and my partner would say, hey, what'd you talk about today? I have no idea. Like I'd forget. It's like, it's this weird thing. I could like empty my cash in my brain.

Melanie Avalon:
You know, I can barely remember and I you know, I just went to that one show exactly

Ricki Lake:
Well, it's nice to talk to you again.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. I think it's like slowly coming back to me. I think they gave us this is so ironic because this was before I was like in the biohacking world. I think we got like red light devices for the skin or something.

Ricki Lake:
That's cool. I mean, I probably didn't think, I didn't bat an eye with that kind of stuff. Now I'm so into all of the things. Yeah, all of it. All of it that they can make us feel as good as we possibly can for as long as we can.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm all about it. So yeah, so I had that epiphany literally last night. I was already excited and I was like, oh my goodness, I'm even more excited now. Yeah. So anyways, so to start things off, so many questions for you guys. Actually, because this is, we're going to talk a lot about birth control, just from my experience with birth control. So I'm not on birth control, but in high school, I had really bad acne and I wanted to go on Accutane, which I shudder about now as well. But in order to be on Accutane, I had to first be on birth control. So they put me on Yaz and I had to be on that for like a few months. And then I remember I was on it for a few months. It actually sort of cleared up my skin, not completely, but a little bit. And so then I finally went in to get the Accutane and the doctor was like, oh, I think the birth control is working. We're just going to keep you on birth control instead. I literally started crying in the doctor's office. That's my one and only experience actually with pharmaceutical birth control. But to dive into this topic some more, first of all, I'm super curious, both of you ladies, how did you two meet? It's so interesting how you found this focus focusing on this reproductive health power with women. So did you both individually have that passion and come together or how did that start?

Ricki Lake:
It's the perfect, I mean, it's so ironic how we met. We met doing the Vagina Monologues off Broadway. Abby was directing the production and it was an ongoing cast, like a recurring cast, so they would change out the women. And it was like a three-week run, I think. And so I was one of her actresses in the production and we became friends. I think it's because I took the city bus and she'd never taken the city bus. And I said, come with me downtown. And she's like, I'm a bus? Like, I guess I was definitely not like one of the normal celebrities she'd been working with. And we just became really tight. And it was years later, actually, after that production that I moved out to California. So much happened. I got divorced and I was starting anew and I was, you know, I ended my show. And, you know, we came back together. She was coming out to LA. I was like, you got to come over and see my, you know, my fat crib now, like where I live now. And I just had this idea. I was really impacted by my birth experiences, one at home and one in the hospital. And I just wanted to do a project. I didn't know what it looked like. I didn't know what format, but I just kind of gave her some material, including my nine-hour home birth that was still in the camcorder, the tape. You know, it was that old, you know, this was in 2000. I had him in 2001. So I gave her, you know, the tapes and a couple of books, one being Ina Magaskin, Spiritual Midwifery. And she came back and she's like, I think this is a documentary. And we just started and we, you know, we've been working together ever since. I mean, it's been, you know, 20, that was back in like 2003 when we first started our, that project came out in 2008. And we've been working together ever since. And it's the best partnership. It's the longest relationship, I think a successful relationship I've had. It's just, it was like this magic, something about like our, we come from a place of like being curious, having our own experiences. And we are able to sort of tap into like the zeitgeist before it's in the zeitgeist. Do you know what I mean? Like even our cannabis film, it's like that we were sort of ahead of our time. And I'm just so proud of the work I get to do with Abby. She's a genius. Yeah, those movies mean so much to me. When I look at my career, it's like by far, by far, it's the most important, the most impactful work that I do.

Melanie Avalon:
So amazing. I'll just quickly comment. I went to the school theater and film at USC, and Vagina Monologues, I feel like is like required material for for theater school. It's incredible. Yeah, Abby, any any comments? Abby, you filmed your birth on in the movie, in the documentary? Yes, but completely on.

Abby Epstein:
unplanned. So crazy. Yeah. When we had started making the movie, I had never been pregnant. And then just coincidentally, I got pregnant maybe like a year into making the movie. And so that was really our editor, Madeline Gavin. She is the brilliant one. And she was like, you know, you should really kind of turn the camera on yourself. And I was like, no, I don't want to be in my own movie. I'm not, you know, like this supersize me kind of, you know, film. And but I just begrudgingly did it. And then if you see the movie with I don't want to give the spoiler, but yes, ended up having a very dramatic birth experience. So it was in the movie was in the movie and kind of balances things out in a certain way. But yeah, I think Ricki is very much like I think it's she is sort of always like on the cutting edge of things like she's just has this incredible, I don't know, like this radar, you know, for what's coming in or what feels interesting to her. And she just she was fascinated by this whole world of natural birth and midwifery.

Ricki Lake:
I still am. I still am. I can still hear these like, you know, positive birth experiences, which there can be so many different ways of having a baby, you know, could be an in a hospital. But when a woman is empowered, and I mean, there's a new video that's going around on social media that I just saw, did you see the baby? It was a twin breach birth on call where the baby's born in the sack. Oh, yes. Lindsay posted it. Lindsay posted it. It's been I have chills just like talking about it. But like, I just I just I just love that world. I mean, I love these midwives. I love and these doulas and just these these these women that just give everything to this client to have this experience. It goes, you know, to have a positive experience in that way, I believe impacts you as a mom, it impacted me in every facet of my life to be able to have my baby on my own terms, in my own home, with the people that I wanted, trusting my body, trusting my care provider. It was like life changing beyond motherhood. And that you know, the crux of the movie is about choice. It's about options. It's about you know, education. And it's like what we are taking away from women when we are just, you know, systematically hooking them up to an IV like they're sick and you know, making them numb from the experience waist down and in an in the position that's convenient for the doctor. I mean, all that stuff is like so opposite of what it can be. And I'm not you know, I'm so pro like women having babies, however they choose. But I really, really felt like there was something to explore here. And I'm just so glad it not only has resonated with people, it has resonated for now 16 or 17 years, you know, the movie is as relevant today as it was when it came out. Yeah, I guess I was I didn't have my finger on the pulse of something.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, this is all so, so incredible. And some questions there, you, you hinted at it a little bit, Abby, with your experience and, you know, curveballs that happen. And Ricki, you also hinted at it with the role of choice and all of these different options. One of my questions I have is when women in the book, actually, you said there's three things to consider for when you're having your birth, which is your body, your baby and your level of anxiety. And I'm super curious and empowering women. Is there, is there a more right approach? Like, do you think ultimately, if everybody could get there, a more natural home birth type thing is the way to go? Or for some women, because of their anxiety levels and what they, you know, just the ideas they have in their head, might a traditional hospital, epidural, c-section route actually be better for them in that moment?

Ricki Lake:
I mean, I would say home birth is not for everyone. It's probably not for most people. And that's why only like one to 2% of, you know, the population has a home birth. I definitely would say it's not for everyone because you really have to be in a place of trust. And you, you know, you need to have that collaborative care. You need to have backup. You need to be close. In my opinion, and this is all my own opinion. Like people can do whatever they want. They do free birthing. People do, you know, completely unassisted. It's whatever that woman's comfort level is. Would you agree, Abby? Did I say that well?

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, and I think there are things that go into it, you know, for example, traditionally, like black and brown women have had very distrustful and negative experiences within the medical system and the hospital system. So, you know, you know, there's been just a huge, huge movement around, you know, black maternal and fetal health, and combating some of these horrendous statistics the United States have, you know, but for what they're finding for some of those women is they feel safer at home. They actually feel safer and more comfortable, you know, with a trusted midwife. So I think there's so many factors that go into it, right, like social, emotional upbringing, you know, the culture, the culture of hospitals. There's a lot of places in the country where you'd be surprised, like Dallas, Fort Worth area has a massive amount of birth centers, like an incredible choice of all these birth centers that are freestanding run by midwives, but they're all affiliated with hospitals and they work well if you need to be transferred. So it's really interesting because you if you go around the United States, you can see that like the options just change so drastically. Like you have places that don't have any OBGYNs even, you know, and there's just no care. And then there's other places that have like tons of home birth midwives. And so it's a whole patchwork of like figuring out where you live and what your options might be and then like where you sit, you know, within that.

Melanie Avalon:
Since the documentary, you know, which was a while ago and the book even, have things progressively consistently gotten better with choices or does it also kind of retract as well?

Ricki Lake:
I mean, it's definitely gotten worse, I think. Oh, worse, okay. Oh, yeah. I mean, it started to get better. For example, when we put out the film in 2007, we screened it for Grand Rounds at the very hospital where I had had my first son and where Abby ends up having her son. And the doctor that's featured, the doctor that supports midwifery care, and they call him the hairy midwife, Dr. Moritz, he works at that hospital. So we screened it for them. I don't know what we were expecting, but they screamed at us that we were slandering them. It was a shit show. During the screening? At the end of the screening, we did a talkback, and they were yelling at us. They called us Nazi propagandist filmmakers. We were too dear in the headlights. We did not expect that kind of backlash and reaction. But we knew we had tripped the cord on something. We had tapped into something because we were showing the truth, what it's like giving birth in a hospital. And cut to, I think, just a few years later, I was honored as mother of the year at Cedars-Sinai Hospital here in Los Angeles. And they're building birth centers with tubs, and they were having all these new options for women. They were making it more home birth-like, supposedly. But then they went back and got rid of it. So it's, I don't know, it moved the needle a little bit. And then the numbers are terrible. Our numbers with Black maternal death in this country, it's worse than many third world countries. That's why the movie is so relevant still.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that shocked me when I read that about I was wondering if the infant mortality statistics still held from the book. That's crazy that the US has that high of rates. Super random personal question. Did you did you both always want to have children?

Ricki Lake:
Yes, I would say yes. I did I did so I did too I'm just thinking about it cuz I'm like and I think about it now like, you know, cuz I have grown my sons are 27 and 23 and I you know, and I was 20. I was 27 when I got pregnant with my first son and Now with the landscape like I don't know if I would want to have children right now it like seeing how first of all How hard it is having kids and raising them. It's it's such it's such a huge huge You know the hardest job and the best but I did, you know, I was married very very early very much in love I was on a hit show. I was making money like it was the obvious next step was to start a family So yes, I would say yes definitively. Yes

Melanie Avalon:
If I can make a documentary request, I would love one about women having children and also having really strong careers because that's my, I don't think I'll ever have children.

Ricki Lake:
because you feel like you can't be, you'll be too spread too thin. Abby, you knew you wanted kids? You did, right?

Abby Epstein:
Yes, I did. I did. But it did help to see. Like I had one specific friend that I remember seeing when she had her son and I remember kind of going into her house and seeing that like she was working away. You know what I mean? The baby was just sitting at her feet in a little baby chair looking cute and she was just like doing her thing and creating and designing and I was like, oh, you know, like some and then I was like, okay, I see, you know, I see what she's doing. I could do this. You know, it's sort of like took a minute to snap in, I would say.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just really, really intrigued by the whole concept. So I mentioned this in the beginning. I noticed, you know, diving into both of these two topics that you ladies have covered, the birth control and the birthing, that there seemed to be this similar trend where there's a feminist movement that is very pro these different things because they're, and by things with the birthing, I mean like modern medicalized birthing and then birth control, because they're empowering women, they're giving them freedom and choice and, you know, just helping them. But then on the flip side, there's also a feminist movement that is, you know, kind of against them and pointing out the problems and the issues. I'm curious there, just what do you think about that? Like, what is the role of that tension in both birth control and the birth experience?

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, so you mean like just the tension in terms of where the feminists sit in between? you

Melanie Avalon:
maybe from your perspective as a woman like what are you fighting for here and we can dive more into the issues with birth control specifically why do you think there's like this why do we see both sides of females fighting for different seemingly different things.

Abby Epstein:
I see what you're saying, yeah, you know, yeah, it's and we saw so many comparisons like when we did the birth movie and then the birth control movie, just so many comparisons, you know, and I think that one of the things that I think I don't know kind of happens in like, women's spaces, and especially women's reproductive health spaces is I don't know why, but it almost seems there seems to be this feeling of like, like, I, why can't I just share, right, my positive experience about my home birth, my midwife, you know, which is was exactly the impetus for this movie in the beginning, like Ricki was saying, she just had this incredible experience that she wasn't even aware was like on the menu. And she just wanted to let other women know, like, hey, this is out there if this speaks to you. And it seems sometimes like the second you do that, you are somehow insulting or offending the woman who, you know, chose the elective C section. Or, you know, it's it's somehow there's this thing of like that you're negating someone else's experience and you're saying, you know, this is the right way to have children or this way is better or this way is more natural or, you know, and I and I think that's often kind of where we get into trouble is like, it's hard to say, okay, well, I want to share what's wonderful about midwives and what's wonderful about home birth. But like, you know, in order to, to really understand like what the possible benefits could be, right, you have to, you know, you have to in some way say like how this is a transformative experience and how this is different. And I don't know, I think that we just tend to get into these spaces where it's it's it's very hard to to hold that and I feel like it's the same thing with any reproductive rights, right? If you look at abortion or, you know, I don't know why can't people just make their own personal decision or if they're religious or say, I respect that you, you know, don't believe in abortion, but I do, you know, it's it's sort of always seems to be, right? This this very polarizing black and white space we get into around women's bodies, I think, and women's reproductive rights. And I think that the pendulum always swings like you could see in the business of being born, right, feminists pushing at the turn of the century for for pain relief while they were pushing for pain relief because birth was, you know, sort of barbaric. You know, when it went into the hospital, it wasn't, you know, these midwives and aunts and mothers, you know, supporting women at home, it sort of went into this clinical settings. Okay, so then they got pain relief, but then the pain relief went way too far the other way, right? And women were getting knocked unconscious and their babies getting dragged out of them with force ups, right? So then it's like, well, wait a minute, let's scale back, women want to be conscious, want to be present, you know, so there's always, I think, this pendulum that swings of, of feminists or women trying to decide like, what is empowering? And ultimately, it like goes back to your question, Melanie, which is, what's an empowering birth for somebody is a nightmare for someone else, right? Like, we can't define what's empowering for individuals. you

Melanie Avalon:
It feels like being in a minefield, and there's so much judgment and morality. Interestingly, if you're curious, in the biohacking sphere that I'm in, I think the most judgment and morality issue would come in. I think there's this idea that, well, I mean, it's supported, but that the baby really needs to be born not via C-section so that it gets exposure to the mom's microbiome correctly. And so I think there's this a lot of judgment where if you don't have, if you have a C-section, then you're, you know, that's a really, it's judged because of that really specific reason. And that's just an example of, I really think you can't win, like, like, whatever you ask.

Ricki Lake:
end up doing. And also breastfeeding. I mean, there's just so many opinions everyone has, you know, their say that it's just, yeah, you really can't win. And yeah, it's, I agree.

Melanie Avalon:
I will say though, I highly recommend friends watch the business of birth control. One of my favorite parts of the documentary was when you showed clips of the women at the, was it the Senate hearings? The women that led to the labeling on birth control. I guess at that time you could, can you still just attend things like that? But you could at the time, right? You could just like go? Yes, Senate hearings were open.

Ricki Lake:
Like what was that over? That was the Nelson pill hearings, right? And Abby, your mom knew that woman.

Abby Epstein:
My dad actually grew up next door to Alice Wolfson, who we interview in the movie, and who was the one who stood up, you know? She was the brunette one who got a lot of press time, and she got sort of famous from interrupting those Senate hearings. But yeah, I mean, that is such a huge piece of feminist history, right? And this is something that's really barely ever talked about. I mean, Ricki and I weren't aware of the Nelson pill hearings before we made the movie, but these were big Senate hearings in the 70s. And essentially, feminists really advocated for those hearings because at that point, the pill had been on the market now since the 50s. And now it was the 70s. And in the women's health movement of the time, you know, it did not go unnoticed that there were like very, very serious side effects with this pill. And so they were the ones who demanded to have Senate hearings to actually, you know, come to a conclusion, are these pills safe? And what happened was really, you know, you can see in the movie, they were furious because they didn't have one woman testify in the entire hearing. It was just kind of doctor after doctor that were all colluding with the pharma companies, you know, getting up and saying the pill is safe. And pretty much the only people that spoke opposite or spoke the truth were people from other countries, you know, doctors from the UK or doctors, you know, who didn't have the pharmaceutical ties, who admitted. But it was a very pivotal trial because they decided that the benefits of the pill outweighed the risks. And I think this is still a question today, right? Is how do you weigh risk versus benefit for an individual? You know, how do you weigh that? Because it's so individual. And if you're the one with the risk, right, and like you saw in the movie, if you're the one whose daughter died from a pulmonary embolism from birth control, then, you know, your risk benefit is quite different, right, than the person next to. So it was a very, very pivotal trial because I think that, you know, they really swept a lot of the evidence and the testimony under the rug because it was so pivotal. It was so important for society to keep these pills on the market. And for women's, you know, at that time, you know, I think for women's economic equality, it was so important.

Melanie Avalon:
That footage is burned in my mind. It's honestly one of the most amazing things I've seen because, well, first of all, it's real life. It's not reenactment. And it's, you know, these just listeners, you have to watch it, just these, this room of men, essentially. And these women, I wrote in my notes that they, I wrote my notes, women freaking out, stand up and yell at the, they're standing up and yelling at the men, you are murdering us for your profits and convenience, just like yelling this at them. And it's incredible, it's beyond incredible. But speaking to some of that, so birth control itself, you talk in the documentary about how this blew my mind, the original FDA approval. So what did they do to get it approved, especially, you know, doing it in Puerto Rico rather than the US?

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, so like we cover in the film, you know, when it became time to actually test the pill, right, which is, you know, really complicated, like, how do you do these kind of, you know, control double blind placebo controlled studies with something like this, they went to Puerto Rico, and they went to Puerto Rico because they knew women there were desperate for any kind of family planning and birth control. So they, you know, signed up women in Puerto Rico to this trial, but they didn't really get informed consent. They didn't tell the women anything about the risks. You know, it was ultimately a very small group of women, which was common at that time, you know, like, to do a trial with like 130 women was, you know, kind of standard, I guess, at that time. But they did this trial, and they had deaths on the trial. They had a suicide. I mean, you know, they had all sorts of things happening just within this small population. And that is the trial that, you know, the FDA approved. And so again, I think one of the things we also learned about birth control and like racial history, right, is that if you talk to women, if you talk to women of color, they will tell you, Oh, we had a like, we have a very different relationship, you know, with birth control than white women. And, and this was the beginning of it in a way, you know, that they used these Latina women as the guinea pigs, you know, for bringing this pill onto the market. And then you kind of that that sort of was a thread that followed through with birth control, whether that was, you know, using again, black and brown communities as guinea pigs, you know, or poor communities, where they were, you know, desperate to control the population using them as guinea pigs. And it went all the way through like, you know, we follow in the film to the to the 90s, of this kind of history of women of color, not getting consent, not getting informed consent, and also, you know, kind of being more coerced. I mean, while there were actual full on sterilizations in the US, in the 50s, but then also like, sort of being coerced into more long acting forms of contraception, right, which are some of the most toxic, like the Depot Provera shot, you know, things like that, as a means to, you know, control population. So it's, it's a very dark history. It really is. It's a very, very dark history. It's not, you know, I think what we would like to think as feminists of like, oh, how wonderful, they discovered this miracle pill, and then everybody could control their ovulation fertility. It's like, no, they really preyed upon a lot of minority populations, you know, to develop these drugs to try these drugs. And it's, it's, it's, it's dark, it's really dark, you know.

Melanie Avalon:
I was honestly, I was shocked, especially I mentioned earlier going to USC, I learned that there were sterilization experiments on immigrants at USC in the 1960s. I was like, oh, man, it's really shocking. Also, you talked about this, you know, long acting action of these pills. And you actually mentioned this, I don't know if it was in the documentary, but it was in the birth book. And it talked about how with birth control, it was the first time that women started being prescribed pills long term where they didn't necessarily have a like a health issue that it was addressing. So basically, like it ushered in this idea of being on medication, like all the time, which, you know, majorly contributed to the chronic disease epidemic that we have today. And I think the documentary opens with this all or it's near the beginning. What we're told with birth control is that we don't need a period that, you know, this is all fine and dandy. So do we need to have a period and the like the withdrawal believe that you have on birth control? Is that is that a period? Like, what's actually happening here when you're on birth control?

Ricki Lake:
We're not doctors, but yeah, you're not getting a regular cycle when you're on hormonal birth control. What's it called? What kind of bleed is it? It's a withdrawal bleed. Right. And I was one of those people, Abby too, we were both on hormonal. I was on the pill for years, on it, off it. Oh, I'm going to go on this honeymoon. I'm going to just double up on the pill so I don't get my period that month. I was one of those people that just thought it made things so much easier. I never thought about side effects. I never considered that it actually changes your personality. It can change who you're attracted to. It affects your pheromones. Obviously, I didn't know any of this until we made the film, but for me, I suffered with hair loss. I've been very outspoken about my experience. That's one of the main side effects of being on these drugs. It was torture for me for many, many years dealing with that and to look back on, oh, being on that low estrogen, whatever brand. They would switch the brands on me because I'd go to my doctor for my Pap smear and she'd have a stack of a new product. It saved you a trip from the pharmacy. Oh, great. I have the next six months for free from the mindset. I just never knew to consider what it was doing to my body. I was never given the informed consent ever, and my story is not unique.

Melanie Avalon:
Were you on it when you started the documentary, either of you? No.

Ricki Lake:
This documentary, no. But I was on, I'm trying to think, when we made the business of being born, I was mad, I've done it, I've had the IUD, I had both the copper and the marina, where you weren't on birth control when you did, right? Abby, with the last documentary?

Abby Epstein:
No, I was only on it in my 20s for that decade, but what's really interesting is that, you know, so like last weekend, I was at this symposium called The New Pause, right? About menopause, right? And so now what's so interesting is how all of these, I feel like everybody's hormonal journey, women only learn about their bodies when like there's something either going wrong or like they want to get pregnant. So it's like women don't understand their menstrual cycle at all. They have like zero body literacy about it as teenagers, as young women. So when somebody's like, oh, go on the pill to regulate your cycle. Like no one even understands that you're actually shutting down your cycle. You're not having, you know, a cycle when you're on the pill. Then suddenly you want to get pregnant. So it's like, oh my God, how does my body work? Well, wait a minute, ovulation and fertility, right? And then there's this kind of uptick. And then I think the next little chapter is like this perimenopause, right? Everything starts again, like going hormonally haywire and it's starting earlier and earlier now, like a lot, there's a lot more early forties menopause women. So, you know, what's interesting is how this all connects Melanie, because like what I'm hearing now going to these like perimenopause and menopause conferences is that a lot of these women just put in an IUD and then just basically kept it in, right? And then don't even understand that they're going through perimenopause or menopause, right? And then when they're like 46, you know, the doctor's like, oh, we could just take out your IUD, you know, I think you're good now. And then they take out the IUD and they have a complete and total crash. And they have to now figure out how to read, you know, and then they have to go straight onto HRT because they don't even realize that IUD was giving them this stream of synthetic hormones while their own hormone production was ramping down. And, you know, so it's fascinating because like we've been in all these spaces and now, you know, Ricki and I are in the perimenopause space and it's like you just see the connection and there's this blindness, right, of just sort of only being focused at the stage of life you're at, but you don't realize that you're setting yourself up for that next stage, right? And you don't realize that if you go on the pill at 14 and stay on for two decades or three, I mean, that is going to affect your bone health, your cardiovascular health.

Ricki Lake:
It was just a study that came out that the IUD they're saying seeing links to breast cancer That just was like the other day

Abby Epstein:
Okay. Definitely slight increased risk of breast cancer, but now we're seeing like that probably even affects how you menopause, right? You know, it's like we're Gen X, Ricki and I are Gen X, and Gen X is like the first generation that is really getting loud about menopause, right? And sort of, you know, a lot of people are experiencing a pretty rough time, right? And yet we're also that first generation that started like taking the pill very, very young like you did for skin, for acne, and then just staying on for at least a decade. And like, we don't know the downstream effects, you know, and that's kind of what we say in the movie. There's no way, nobody's doing those studies, you know, there's no studies really looking at that. You know, there's been some good studies, like we mentioned in the movie out of Denmark, that have looked at the mental health side effects of hormonal contraception, and even those are not that widely accepted in America. It's kind of interesting. So yeah, the whole thing, the whole thing, it's just, you know, it's just so important, it's so important, you know, like, to really understand, like, early on, like, what is your cycle? What are the benefits of your cycle, right? Like, how can you fix issues in your cycle without birth control? You know, then, and having that knowledge going all the way through your fertile years all the way through your menopause, because it's, you know, it's like, I've seen too many women just suffering. And when I say suffering, I don't mean a little bit of moodiness. I mean, you saw some of the girls in our film, what happened to them, but I mean, I'm talking about women who, you know, the same women have to drop out of college because, you know, they're so depressed by their birth control, or, you know, and nobody's ever connected the dots.

Ricki Lake:
or they marry the wrong person.

Abby Epstein:
It's like it can really take your life off track, you know, if you mess with your hormones because these sex hormones, like we know, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, these are not sex hormones. These are hormones that have receptors all over your brain on every organ of your body. I mean, these are your life hormones, you know? And when you start messing with them, there are effects, you know? And at the very least, I feel like, look, there's so many young women who, you know, I have friends with teenage girls and they're like, well, you know, we really need to put her on the pill because of X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, okay, that's great. So, you know, if you're going to have your daughter go on the pill or someone's to go on for X many number of years, do you know what you should be supplementing? Do you know what kind of, you know, micronutrient and vitamin depletions are now going to be happening? No, they have no idea. You know, there's even like baseline things that women could be doing just to like counteract the birth control and keep themselves healthier that nobody knows about.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's so crazy. And the attraction thing, that's fascinating that you talked about that study in the documentary, where basically, if you're on the pill, it can make you more likely to be attracted to more of like a brotherly love type man rather than like a sexual erotic attraction. So you know, women will be on birth control and then go off of it and you know, not be attracted to their husbands anymore.

Ricki Lake:
It happened with lesbian couples too. Oh, does it really? Yeah, there was some doctor, was it Keith that told the story about the lesbian couple that they were doing fertility treatments for one of them to get pregnant and she was repulsed by her partner suddenly. And he would say, don't worry, when you go off the hormonal birth control or the hormones to amp up your fertility, don't worry, it'll go back to normal. But yeah, it's just, it's a real thing.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't remember experiencing any emotional effects from being on yas in high school. But interestingly, if you look at my high school yearbook pictures, just pictures in general, I mean, I've never been severely overweight. But I definitely gained, I mean, probably like, probably like 20 pounds just from going on that like you can see the differences in the pictures. And I definitely at the time did not realize that it was from that, which is kind of shocking to me. But I feel almost I just feel like taking advantage of like, I didn't need to be on that, you know, like, there was no reason. So it's just it's frustrating. And I'm just so grateful for you ladies for drawing attention to all of this. I'm curious, you mentioned the the really intense reception you had when you first screen that being born documentary, did you have any negative reactions to your birth control screening? Well, we couldn't sell it. Really?

Ricki Lake:
Well, not in the US. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, none of the streamers would would do it. And you know, that's crazy. Well, big pharma is controls everything. I mean, unfortunately, so it's just that was really surprising because it was, you know, it's a beautiful film. It's so well made. It's so important. It's so timely. It's so like, of like today, you know, with it just it just seems like the perfect timing for it, particularly with Roe v. Wade taken away. And yeah, so that that was the that was the fallout from from that one. How can listeners watch it and buy it? Where is it right now? Just on our website.

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, well, so we have it up on Amazon. So you can rent it on Amazon, or we also have it on our website through Vimeo. So you can go to Vimeo.com, or you can go to our website, the business of.life. And yes, it is also streaming on a streaming platform called Gaia.

Melanie Avalon:
Has big pharma specifically come after you at all? Like, have you gotten any scary letters?

Ricki Lake:
No, but I thought there was going to be like a hit out on us. Like I really, when we were making it, I was like, we are really poking the tiger right now, but one example that happened. I was for years with my, my first talk show, I was involved with a group called what is it called the national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy. And I was on their board and I would, you know, I was very involved. I was making PSAs for them because teenage pregnancy was a huge problem in the nineties. And so that was something we tackled because my show was a younger show and I was really into the group I was working with. And I was very much, you know, like a believer in what they were doing. And they got wind from a one paragraph press release of my new documentary. And they just threw me off the board without even asking any questions without meeting with me. It just, they could not be in bed with someone that was challenging, you know, these options that they need to, you know, to offer to young women to keep them from getting pregnant.

Melanie Avalon:
Were like screening festivals open to it? Yeah, oh definitely. It's just mostly like the monetary distribution.

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, I mean, we have distribution in Europe and we've sold it in like several countries for broadcast. And we, you know, premiered at film festivals and we've gotten amazing feedback. So, you know, I think part of it also is just honestly, Melanie, it's like, we're still a little ahead of our time, you know? It's just, it's a very hard message for people. Because at the end of the day, they're like, okay, well now you're giving us this information, but what do I do with my 16-year-old? Do you know what I mean? It's like there isn't kind of a- There's not like a solution. A ready-made solution, exactly. Except for, say, well, do you know about cycle mapping? And how about condoms? Like, oh my God. I mean, every teenager should be wearing condoms, but condoms don't seem to count, right? So it's very frustrating because it's like, you know, anyone with a penis has sort of been taken out of this equation. So, and if it's just, you know, women and girls, like there aren't really that many solutions right now, except for there's, you know, the copper IUD, the paraguard IUD, which is non-hormonal, and younger women are definitely learning more about the copper IUD. And I'm like surprised at how many women in their 20s are using it, because that was usually something reserved for women after they've had at least one baby, because it's not really designed for like a smaller cervix. But, you know, it's not ideal, because it can, you know, cause like heavy bleeding in the first couple months. And, you know, so there's just not that many options. And I think that's what makes this message very difficult.

Ricki Lake:
Fertility awareness method is what we you know, we talk about sort of at the end of the movie and I think that You know that is exciting. It is there is a learning curve, you know And I I do it now and I because I still get a period believe it or not. I'm 56 years old I still it's starting to go a little weird with the days But I for the most part i've been getting a regular period my whole life, but i'm now Really fascinated by my cycle and and really like taking note of how I feel What might you know all of it because i'm i'm it's transitioning But you know for young women to truly be empowered and we say it in the movie It's like really knowing your cycle understanding your body You know and and there are so many gifts like at this time of the month. You're more creative and this time of the month I mean it's just To look at it like in in in a fascinating, you know, like wow i'm gonna learn about my body I'm gonna take control of this because you know when you use it with these apps That are super user friendly, you know things like natural cycles. I use clue. I happen to be a big fan of theirs You know women young women really can Take this matter in their own hands, you know, and that's really exciting. I think

Abby Epstein:
I think so too. And also, you know, I think for monogamous couples, you know, we've just really seen that for a couple, this is a very empowering thing to learn. And then, you know, if it's a heterosexual couple, the male partner really starts to understand his partner's rhythms, her cycle, when she's going to feel maybe more up for sex, when maybe she's going to feel like she needs a little space, you know, and it becomes like a sort of a dual responsibility. And we've heard from a lot of couples that, you know, this can actually really bring them closer together. So, you know, there's there's sort of, I think, an underlying patriarchal, I would say, bias, right, to the kind of birth control that has to make a woman available 365 days a year for sex without pregnancy. That doesn't allow for a woman's natural, like, cycles and libido, right? And I think there is something really masculine about that. And, and, you know, and forcing women to live in the masculine by sort of having a, you know, a steady hormonal state every day, and not having the ups and downs of their cycle. Now, that being said, again, you know, I don't want to rule out that for women with like PMDD, right, with women for very severe PMS, or, you know, women who have, you know, ending endometriosis, or PCOS, which they still haven't really found any great solutions for, you know, being on that steady hormonal state that birth control provides can be might be a lifesaver for them. Do you know what I mean? Like that might really be much better for them than the hormonal fluctuations of a cycle. So, again, this is like, it's, it's a nuanced conversation.

Melanie Avalon:
Not that we would want to make the same problem for men as women where it's the same thing of messing with their hormones, but when you were doing the documentary, did you come across information about could there ever have been male birth control?

Ricki Lake:
Sure, but they wouldn't tolerate it. They wouldn't tolerate the side effects

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, right. There were male pills that the pill came out first for men. Oh, okay. And had trials of male birth control pills several times. And yeah, like Ricki said, all the trials were were shuttled because of the side effects.

Melanie Avalon:
which, yeah, which I'm assuming are similar side effects to for women.

Abby Epstein:
Definitely, definitely. And even now, like, Ricki and I have been involved in a lot of male birth control innovations. And there's some kind of pretty cool biotech coming out and there's some interesting companies that are doing things with like sperm motility, you know, so like more like slowing down the sperm, non-invasive things for men. There's a bunch of different kind of things on the market and all the creators of these companies always tell us that their biggest challenge is investors, you know, and VCs basically saying men won't ever do this.

Ricki Lake:
I'm a big fan of vasectomies, personally.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah, okay. And one other little layer, I was grown super religious. So we, I mean, we didn't even talk about sex, really. And you were mentioning earlier, Abby, like condoms being an issue, like we were we were literally told condoms, and we were told they don't work, basically, because they didn't want us this, I'm not making this up, because they didn't want us having sex. So, like, honestly, I was I thought that condoms were not very protective against getting pregnant. And they did not protect against STDs. They made that very clear. And I remember thinking, like, so the sperm can't get through but or, you know, is maybe protecting but the STD like always can just get through. Like literally, the idea was do not use condoms. Wow, wow. So that's yeah, another documentary idea there.

Ricki Lake:
Oh my gosh. I'm so proud of this movie. I wish it was more like I wish it made a big splash on Hulu or and you know what it should have gotten more of a showing that it's been it has but it's still out there and I hope you know women will will will check it out and get educated and know that they have options, you know.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you for what you're doing. You're amazing. And I'm all about this. So thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you so, so much. Yeah, just so basically, that's a whole other layer of the is the religion aspect.

Abby Epstein:
I know. It's a huge, huge layer. And unfortunately, the religious aspect, because I think natural family planning was pushed by the Catholic Church originally, right? And so now when you talk about fertility awareness method, people get confused. And they're like, oh, that's the rhythm method. That doesn't work. And it's like, nope, that's not the rhythm method. And it's also the difference that I've noted is that when you're learning like fertility awareness as a natural family planning from a religious perspective, they basically teach you like that, you know, in your fertile days, you just abstain because you don't use condoms. But then when you learn it in a secular format, they teach you that during your fertile days you use a barrier method, right? So it's a very, very different way of learning it. And then again, you know, I think unfortunately, a lot of the early religious indoctrination like you experienced has also given fertility awareness method kind of a bad name, you know what I mean, in the sense of like, this doesn't work, and you'll just get pregnant.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, exactly. Honestly, though, it's a reason I'm so passionate about the subject today is because I had this, you know, these epiphanies where I was like, oh, everything I was taught growing up about this is just inaccurate. And so, and it's like, there's just so much education needed surrounding all of this. So I'm just so grateful for the work that you guys are doing. So we will put links in the show notes that people can, you know, watch these films, learn more, support all the things. Are you guys working on another documentary now?

Abby Epstein:
So, we don't have like a documentary project. We just started working on this project called the Midlife Monologues.

Melanie Avalon:
I saw this, I saw your photos on Instagram. This is so exciting. So what's it gonna do?

Abby Epstein:
Yeah, you can find more info under at Midlife Monologues. And we just launched last Friday. So we have, I think, over 45 actresses and writers and producers who've signed on. The actress Constance Zimmer and I sort of launched this together to really like bring forward women's stories around midlife. So it's gonna be a theater piece. We're gonna start with kind of two one night only events in LA and New York to kick off. But there's a lot of talk now about menopause, menopause, menopause, it's just like the space is saturated. But what we're seeing is that, yes, menopause is one huge thing to reckon with in midlife, but also that midlife is just, it's a very unique time for women. It's almost a transition like akin to puberty, hormonally, but also just with everything else in life. People are taking care of aging parents and people have children who are off into the world. It's just, it's a really unique time of change, like physiological change, emotional change. And we see it as just an empowering time where women need to become more vocal, more visible. So that's what the project's about.

Melanie Avalon:
That's super exciting. And maybe it'll be an interesting experience for you guys, because you mentioned earlier with the other documentaries, them being ahead of their time. And now you're mentioning a saturated market, but maybe it'll be interesting to see doing something, you know, during the saturation of the market with that experience is like.

Abby Epstein:
Yes, no, definitely. Exactly. And I think even the market, like I was saying earlier, you know, it's when I was at this menopause conference last weekend, I was like, wow, I mean, I don't think anybody here is sort of getting this on as many levels as I am as sort of like how this relates to all the other phases, you know, birth birth control. I mean, it's all just like one big continuum. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of layers to unpack for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you heard of the Biohack Yourself documentary coming out? No. So it's premiering in Vegas at A4M, and there's all the people in the biohacking sphere in it. But I know they're doing a follow-up documentary all about women's health. It might be of interest to you if you guys want to meet those producers, because I think it's going to be pretty cool, I think. This has been so, so amazing. Thank you so much for your time and all that you're doing. I will put, like I said, links to everything in the show notes. Listeners, check out all of this content now. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is, and by the way, listeners, Ricki had to run, so it's Abby and I here. What is something that you're grateful for?

Abby Epstein:
I could probably answer this for Ricki, too. We have one brain. I mean, the first thing that came to mind when you said that, honestly, is, is Ricki, it's like my female friendships. And I do feel that, as you know, you hit midlife, you know, and as I hit 50 years old, and I, it's just, you realize that that community, you know, those those female friendships, I'm so grateful for them. And that's kind of what gets you through. So I'm very grateful for her and for the partnership. And yeah, I would say female friendships.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I'm sure she would say the same. Well, thank you so much. This was so amazing. I will look forward to all of your future work and I just appreciate it so much. So thank you for what you're doing. Thanks so much.

Abby Epstein:
Melanie, take care. May I be, thank you. Okay, bye.