The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #310 - Jodi Wellman

TRANSCRIPT

Jodi Wellman
dying with the regrets, that to me just felt like the most regretful thing I could do. It really woke me up.

We let a dream die because we're too afraid to look embarrassed. Being generous is such a beautifully selfish thing for your own happiness. It is often easier to widen with vitality first and then find ways to deepen with meaning.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein.

So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Okay, friends, I think I'm a little bit obsessed with Jody Wellman. I had so much fun reading her book and having this conversation today. She is a fabulous beyond motivating human being. I was laughing so much and about a topic which doesn't normally spark a lot of laughter. That's right, embracing our own mortality and understanding that you only die once. Today's episode is all about how to live an astonishingly alive life. And we talk about so many interesting topics, things like the problem with habits, the benefits of anticipation, which is something I'm a little bit obsessed with, having death dates, scheduling ambiguity, the fear of aging versus the fear of death, the role of money and happiness, the benefits of regrets, and so much more. I cannot recommend Jody's book enough. You only die once. It will liven up your life to an incredible degree. I am just so, so grateful for what Jody's doing and for this conversation. These show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon dot com slash alive. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things without further ado. Please enjoy this incredible conversation with Jody Wellman. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am just smiling, so excited about the conversation I am about to have. I am here with an absolutely incredible, fantastic guest who is going to change your life, friends. Just get ready. So the backstory on today's conversation. When I received information about this book, which is called You Only Die Once, how to make it to the end with no regrets with on the cover, a little grim reaper, surfing, skiing? Water skiing. Yeah, yeah. Water skiing. Can you tell I'm not, can you tell I'm not sporty? Water skiing. I was like, this is amazing. The subtitle is how to make it to the end with no regrets. And it's by Jody Wellman, who I'm here with today. And the title alone caught me. And, oh, friends, I did not know what I was in for. I read the book, and it is one of the most inspiring, motivating, and profound books I've read, and also one of the funniest books I have read.

Melanie Avalon
And actually, I listened to it, and Jody does the narration. And I was just dying, laughing my way through it, which is quite a talent to have that, I mean, like two opposites, the idea of death and treating it in such a approachable, light-hearted, jovial manner.

And, friends, so this book, we're going to talk all about it in this episode, but it's basically how to live life to the fullest, how to reach this concept of what Jody calls astonishing aliveness, how things like vitality and meaning affect that, how your habits affect that, the idea of regrets, and a whole lot of stuff on Memento Mori, and how we should just embrace the concept of death and not be hiding in death denials. So, I am so looking forward to this conversation. Jody, thank you so much for being here.

Jodi Wellman
Oh, that is the warmest welcome I think I've ever had. I feel so hugged across the miles. Thank you.

And also for the record, I am so not sporty either. I doodled the Grim Reaper waterskiing and I had no idea what I was doing. Because I'm like, is this how you hold a waterski? How does... Yeah, so I'm with you. I'm totally with you.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I just had an in real time moment where I was like, wait, do you ski on the water? I was so it's fine.

We're here. We're here now. Also, I have a question. When you narrated the audio book, did you add anything like spontaneously?

Jodi Wellman
I wanted to. I love this question.

I wanted to so badly because my style is just all of a sudden riff or make a joke, even if it bombs terribly, but they were very, very, I mean, militant in a loving way about like, that was not what was in the script or, you know, in the book. So no, I, everything was like, and I had to rewind if I did say something or I, I changed one word, they had to go back. So no, it's like honest to garnish from the book, but we could do like an unabridged version.

Melanie Avalon
The reason I was wondering was I was reviewing my notes and I couldn't remember because I was really obsessed with Betsy Johnson growing up. So like the whole skull aesthetic and vibes and I thought you'd mentioned in the book and then I was searching for it through the print version. I couldn't find it and I was like, I thought she said something about it.

Did she added in the audio book? I guess that was all I just that was a false memory that I made up.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah. You made it up. Yeah, but it's good. It was good. I am right with you. I'm a good Betsy Johnson girl, too. I have some earrings that I rock of hers, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
And actually, your book gave me an epiphany about myself because growing up, I mean, speaking of like Betsy Johnson, I was always obsessed a little bit with, not obsessed with death, but I liked integrating it into my life. So I really liked skulls, like Betsy Johnson was like my perfect aesthetic because it was like all like pink and girly and dresses, but like lots of skulls and I loved Halloween. After Halloween, I would go and I would stock up on all the discounted stuff and I would decorate my room with it and my mom would like cancel some of it, be like, she's like, you can't do that Melanie.

And like, when we went to Paris, I was like, we have to go in the catacombs and I wasn't like gothic or you like looking at me, you wouldn't think that. And so reading your book, I was like, maybe I just had a, you know, an adolescent appreciation of a mental Maury. Maybe that's what this was.

Jodi Wellman
I wonder, because I was just going to ask you, what do you think it was at the time that made you feel interested?

Melanie Avalon
I think, so I was contemplating this also, I emailed you, I saw last night, The Addams Family, or two nights ago, The Addams Family Musical, which is also very soaked in this death aesthetic. And I was thinking about it.

And I think I feel, I viscerally feel a thrill at the thought of approaching death. Like it's something that is so intangible and adds a layer of mystery to our world. So it never scared me. I found it very layered and it added another, I don't know, a layer of excitement to life.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, the word mystery you used I think is something that comes up a lot in research about some people have characteristics with their personality where they're open to experience or that their belief in things that are caused wonder and awe, you're more maybe in tune with it. And I think we're similar.

So hello, hi, that it's not somehow daunting or overly morbid to us. It's more about this curious sort of the most magnificent thing. It's the, it's the, the deepest mystery we'll ever have. And so I think, yeah, maybe we're just from the side of the spectrum where it's more about the, the allure and the mystery and what is possible beyond what is going to be entirely annihilating.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. Yeah. And like in your book, you ask, you know, why don't you have funeral plans? And actually, one of my best friends and I, we have a pact that whoever goes first, we're going to orchestrate the other person's funeral.

And I want a haunted mansion themed funeral. And I want it to be like a party. Like a cocktail party that's haunted mansion themed. So do you have funeral plans?

Jodi Wellman
I need to get going on this, because clearly now, you've inspired me. The one thing I do have planned, because really, I'm a bit of a party pooper, as much as I'm the one that's stalling the virtues of live, wide, and deep, and before we die. I, by nature, am pretty boring. So for me, it would just be like, let's come have one hell of a meal with the best wine you could ever find.

Because there's a winery called Memento Mori. I don't know if you're familiar with them. Yeah. And it's hard to get, which makes it, of course, it's all this whole thing about, I talk about temporal scarcity, like we value things that are rarer or limited time only. OK, yeah, like this wine. No, so I'm thinking about a great dinner party. But what I did just recently think of is a friend of mine in Toronto runs a company called Legacy Next, where she records people's videos, and records, and letters to loved ones so that when they die, they can then give them to their loved ones, which is really cool, right? And I don't have anybody that's like, no one's really, I don't mean to say this to fish for anything, but like, no one's going to fucking care when I die.

So I don't have kids. I mean, my cat will care. But my husband, obviously, but we're both going to conveniently go at the same time. And I will care now. OK, thank you. See, I said I wasn't fishing, but maybe I was. But I have this fantasy now because I love a good practical joke. I was thinking that I could somehow do something with her business where I record videos or letters that are just going to freak them out in a really funny way. Like, maybe it's like your haunted house thing where your version is like you could just all of a sudden show up as a hologram. I don't know. We could workshop this. They might need some work.

Melanie Avalon
I love this idea. Yeah, if you want to brainstorm after, I'm down.

But in any case, so this book and your company, 4000 Mondays, everything that you do, what led to this? So did you have some sort of epiphany someday?

You tell the story in the book about what happened with your mom. So were you like me growing up with the fascination? Yeah.

Jodi Wellman
I feel like I've always had growing up the attitude of like, you can't see my face now, but like I'm kind of squinting and I like, what? Like we're trying really hard to live life well, some days even awesomely.

And I've always been involved in the helping professions. Like my first job at a college was as a personal trainer and then I worked forever in the fitness industry and then in coaching, like helping us to feel good, love life, live life. And then we're all going to freaking die all of a sudden. So that combination of events where we're working hard to love our lives and we get so consumed by the most mundane things and then all of a sudden snap your fingers one day, we're going to be gone. That absurdity, there's a branch of philosophy called absurdism. That's always kind of resonated like, wait, what? It didn't stop me from wanting to like life more, but it just always seemed odd in a kind of curious way back to how you were curious about it growing up. And then yeah, my mom, when she was 58, she died of a heart attack and that was unexpected really. And it woke me up not because of the traditional way, like most people would think in myself included like, oh, story of a youngish woman who lost her mother early. That's too bad. And yeah, that's true. But mostly it was because of my experience of cleaning up her apartment because I got the front row seat to dreams that were buried with her. Like she had this massive desk and I went through it, you know, draw by drawers, you have to get rid of things that, you know, people leave behind. So, hey, by the way, Swedish death cleaning, it's a thing like clean up your shit before your loved ones have to. But anyways, she had all these manuscripts and business cards and plans and ideas and dreams. I knew about many of them because she would share them, but I always just kind of knew like, oh, um, she has ideas, but she doesn't do them. That's too bad. But she had this attitude kind of like one day I'll get to do it. And then here I am cleaning up all of her dreams and it struck me. Oh, like this is, this is my MO. Like I love to come up with ideas and whether it ranges from books or, or the business ideas. I was like, Oh, I do not want to get to the point where when I die, hopefully, you know, in my eighties or later, I do not want to get there and feel like I had deferred all my dreams too. And dying with the regrets that to me just felt like the most regretful thing I could do. And it really woke me up.

Melanie Avalon
One of the things you talked about in the book that I have actually since quoted to multiple people was you talk about regret and that it is the most valued of the negative emotions and jealousy, I could have called that, that jealousy is like the one we hate the most and I hate, I can't stand the feeling of jealousy in myself.

I know.

Jodi Wellman
I know. You know, the other one I don't like just to dwell for a sec because it's related is pity. Like, pity is a gross emotion to feel that, ooh. And I hate saying this and I'm going to say it aloud because here we are. But I felt, I have to whisper it maybe because my mom might be listening. Like I felt pity for my mom's dears. Like she's a dear, sweet woman. I love her so much and she had all these ideas. And it was, it was pity for me is actually maybe a worse emotion than jealousy. And that also maybe was what struck me is not, maybe not that I didn't want to be pity, but I didn't want to pity myself on my death bed. Like, oh honey, you know, you could have, you could have written the book or, you know, you could have learned that language or you could have planned that trip that you kept putting off or you could have gone back to school. So, oh yeah, but regrets typically are informative. Like most of us are, you know, rational enough to know that if we're able to imagine a regret in the making, which is one of my most favorite things to do other than, you know, drink cocktails and stuff is to imagine what I would regret on my death bed. And then it's like, well, thank you, because now I know something that I might choose to take action on now before my life gets like snuffed out. Cause I still have, like last I checked, I wasn't dying. I mean, I am dying very slowly. We all are, but I'm not on my death bed. So I could still, you know, start that other business or I could still write that fiction book or so. I don't know if the potential is really exciting once we actually let death work to our advantage.

Melanie Avalon
And to clarify, so those are regrets of omission, right? And compared to, like you talk about hot regrets, which is where you do something and then you regret doing it.

This is regretting not doing something, which is that worse than hot regrets? Good catch.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, totally, totally. Because most of us initially think when we talk about regrets, it's like the stupid mistakes we made, the things that we wish we could do over. And most research is clear that as we age and as we maybe end up in hospice, those stupid things, we find a way to rationalize, which is kind of nice and comforting.

But what can haunt us, back to you wanting your haunted house, is the notion of the paths we didn't take. So it is that it's the regrets of the stuff we didn't do. And that I find really quite thrilling that we are able to, in most cases, course correct those paths because it's just a choice, right? And it's a story we're telling ourselves usually if we do say, oh, you know, I wanted to start that business or I wanted to go back to school, but the belief somehow that it's too late for us. Because now I'm looking at you, I'm making that face again, like, which is loving, but also kind of like sizing you up like, wait a sec, is it too late, though? Like, I know people who changed their careers in their late fifties and sixties, I know a woman who got her master's in her sixties and her PhD in her early seventies. And like, we could do that if we want it. Let's pretend, you know, we like, there's not to say where there's a will, there's a way, but where there's a life, there's opportunity. So now you're getting me all excited.

Melanie Avalon
This might be a little bit too esoteric. I'm just thinking about it.

Another reason I think regrets of a mission are so haunting, no pun intended, is because the hot regrets are regretting things that you did. That only happens if you did something and you regret it. So it's very definitive, it's very measurable compared to a regrets of a mission. You don't know how it's going to go. So you're going to regret every single fear of a mission, regret of a mission even if it would have been a hot regret, but you don't know that. So literally, it's just not good.

Jodi Wellman
You can't win. I love this so much because back to research again, there's this notion that we all have this idea of who our ideal self is. I have not met that bitch yet, but she's out there. I know who I'm going to be one day. The regrets about the paths we didn't take, they make the gap between the ideal self and the current self so much more salient. So this idea like, oh, what if I did move to, I don't know, the Poconos? Could I have been happy there? What would my life have been like? Or what if I did go and take that job offer in Montreal? Like, wow, could I have been so successful? And could I have been wearing those amazing shoes? I'll be that type of person. Or what if I did get on that dating app? Could I have found love? And could I be making a casserole tonight? By the way, that sounded very domestic. I don't mean that. But you know what I mean? We have these notions of this cooler version of our lives and regrets help highlight what that person could have been. And that's hard for us to take.

All the more reason is thinking right now. And for everybody listening, I'm going to do this for me too because imagine that tonight's the night. And the good news is that you are so heavily medicated, you feel really good, but physically, but you are doing the flashback and you're like, oh man, I had a good life. I did these things, some things I didn't do. And these are the things, darn it, that I am feeling regret that I didn't do. And it could be something that's super small. Like, wow, I always wanted to try Ethiopian food and I didn't. Okay. Or I wish that I had planned that really great trip with my family to go and see where my grandmother was born or I wish that I had started the Etsy shop or I wish that I had been more present. I wish I put my phone down more or I wish I took care of my health more.

I just had a few less Cool Ranch chips or whatever. When you write all those things down and that's my recommendation is there's no bullet point too small and some of them are going to be bigger than others. And when you look at that page, some of them are going to stand out and some of them are going to feel a little bit trivial and that's cool. What would be a thing that you might think, wow, that would be a thing I kind of keep coming back to it. I'm not doing it yet and I don't need to analyze why right now, but I really feel funny about this one. So can I even just be particular? Like, can I ask you, Melanie? Like, is there something in your mind or life where you'd think that you would, if you were going tonight, a little bit of a could've, should've, would've like, I didn't do that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, for sure. And this is probably really helpful to people because you also say that apparently we like knowing that other people have regrets.

So it makes us feel better about ourselves, I guess.

Jodi Wellman
Make us feel normal now, please, hurry.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, yes. I regret that I didn't do dancing growing up. I think I would have been good at it, and I think it would have helped me with my, and I wish I had trained more with musical theater, but I think it would have given me a lot of comfort with my body. I felt so awkward in my body for a long time, and I just would like to be a dancer.

But it's not too late. You're so right. I could be taking dance lessons.

Jodi Wellman
Oh, okay, is there a certain kind of dance that makes your heart kind of go flitter flutter?

Melanie Avalon
Not, well, people always thought I was a, often think I'm a ballet dancer. So I do find that, oh, I did take ballet. Oh, I'm getting hit with memories. I took ballet when I was like, whoo, that did not last long.

Oh, did it traumatize you? I think so. Yeah. We have this video of me doing ballet and I like run across the stage. I was not about it.

Jodi Wellman
Not even on point, you just kind of ran, just...

Melanie Avalon
but actually just really all all dance. So I think I think it's a big one.

Jodi Wellman
It is. And you know, now the cool thing is that everybody listening is going to be, you know, either going to actively or passively hold you somehow, some way, you know, accountable to kind of look into like intro to dance or like I, I, this, I, but what catch me while I'm about to say something that I think represents a fatal flaw in humanity.

Okay. I was just going to say I am a terrible dancer and I took this intro to various types of dance, like ballroom and flamenco and whatever. I did it with my husband years ago and I felt the need to explain that I'm terrible at it and, and I was breaking a rule of life, I think, because I just want to articulate the reason I started to mention that was that of course there are like intro, like those classes that can give you a sampler of, and then you get to go, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize this, but the salsa dances meant for me. And then you can go off and branch off into salsa, but can I just catch us with the thing I did where it's this fear of not being good and, and that stops us in our tracks. Like life, we die on the vine to use all of my, you know, death language. I suppose we let a dream die because we were too afraid to be looking embarrassed or we have to somehow be good at it fast. Like if you're going to go and take an intro to screenwriting class, I did that years ago, I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting. I always like trying things, but then I was too insecure to hand in or read my Soto, pseudo screenplay to the group. And then I felt like an idiot. And then of course, I never went back.

Well, wait a whole tight, like what about just going and learning? What about sharing your script and having people give it meaningful feedback? What about going to dance class with your two left feet and actually having fun anyways, you know, what about taking the sketch class and knowing I can't even sketch the sun that's okay. What about just learning and observing other people and watching their passion and seeing if your passion grows, you know, do you find that, that you feel like it's way easier to do something if you think you're good at it and it's way easier to stop going if you're stuck.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, for sure, completely. And especially me, I'm like a perfectionist and all the things.

So I, that would definitely be a barrier for me for a lot of things that and this is something that you I found really it's similar. You also say in the book that because you encourage people to, you know, try new things and to add vitality to their life that we can get more into. But you make a note where you're like, by the way, you don't have to keep doing any of this stuff. If you find out you don't like it, which I think is really helpful, because I think people think they're like committed, you know, like, they're committed.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Many of us have stories for when we're a kid when our parents, you know, understandably chastised us because we were like, we spent all that money on that hockey equipment and now you just gave it up after one like half season. And I get it. But now that we're maybe adults that have, you know, even a modicum of discretionary income or whatever, I feel like we latch onto that story.

Like if I try something and I don't stick with it, it means I'm flighty. And I would just say, what would you rather a life where you try a bunch of different things and you kind of just sample pack it and you didn't like it, but you tried it. You took the candle making class. Eh, let's throw the candle out. That didn't work for me. Oh, I tried badminton and that was fun, but only for four classes and you keep moving on. Would you rather that or would you rather not registering for anything at all and just basically watching Netflix all day, which to me sounds really good on a lot of days anyways, but would you rather that like let's maybe reframe our relationship with that with hobbies and activities is that like, I want to go for breath on a lot of things that for me feels resonant. Some people think differently, but I would just encourage, cool, go for your one or two things and go for depth, but don't be afraid to abandon it if it isn't working for you because there is another activity out there that will light you up and make you feel alive and just let's careful not to die on the couch while we tell ourselves the story that we're going to look or feel like restless or irresponsible just because we realized like, no, I don't actually like this biography book. You know what? Donate it. Get it out of your life. Like move on. If I don't like a book after a few, it's like abandoning a book. Yes. Yes. Do you do that?

Melanie Avalon
Okay well more flashbacks yeah cuz growing up i was like the reader and i would not abandon the book. I don't know i can probably tell like count on my hand how many times i can't in the book.

Jodi Wellman
So you stick with it, even if you don't love it, you'll finish it? I wouldn't do that now, though.

Melanie Avalon
So yeah, now we have social media, so we're not even used to the idea of just sitting down and reading a book all the way through. I'm so glad I was right before all that happened because being raised in that culture, not good.

Jodi Wellman
everything is fleeting. So even if I don't like this post, this reel will be done in 90 seconds and we don't even go to the end of the reel.

Yeah, yeah. I used to have magazine subscriptions because magazines are fun, right? And there was a phase where I used to have a bunch of them and they'd come in and there's always that little high when you go to the mail. But then my magazines would taunt me from the side table or the coffee table or beside the bed because I wasn't getting around to reading them.

Melanie Avalon
hadn't read it. I'm just, I'm saying, yeah, like it was taunting you because you hadn't read it yet.

Jodi Wellman
And then I felt like, but then they kept building on each other and then I was feeling behind and bad about myself and I still love a good magazine and all apologies to the magazine industry because I love you when I have time for you, but I got rid of all my subscriptions and it made my life feel better because I didn't feel like I was behind.

And I just devoted meaningful thoughts so that a lot of what we're talking about indirectly is just living with intention, you know, again, before we die. And so that for me means noticing and going, I feel better about myself if I'm reading a book and I have a lot of downtime, like waiting for planes or waiting in line for Chipotle or whatever it is. Right. And so I like, I have a choice. I, of course, I'm always peeking at my emails because I'm addicted, but instead of doing even like my Apple newsfeed, which I used to do and it made me always leave it feeling empty. Like it never fulfilled me. I never liked any, if any, or the articles, I just have my Kindle up at all times. So I'm, even if I have a seven minute wait, I'm just going to read a snippet of a chapter. And for some reason, I just feel like I like that version of myself better. And so I'm just setting myself up for a little more success for happiness, which I think is so much about tuning in. Like, what are the things that fill you up? What makes you feel happy? I have another former client who used to say, well, I feel better about myself when I'm writing somebody like a nice note on my team. So when she's got her break, she's not reading. She's like, I'd rather die than read a book. So obviously she didn't read my book, but that's fine. But then, but then she's like, I, so her, her practice now is that I've got seven minutes. If she's waiting in line somewhere or whatever, she makes, she writes a note to one of her, one of her team members in her big company, like, Hey, I want to just tell you, here's a reason why I thought you did a great job in the presentation yesterday. And then that makes her feel like a billion bucks because she's given someone a, like a lift. So anyways, it's just being conscious about basically how we spend our fleeting time.

Melanie Avalon
This is so fascinating to me. I'm just thinking about with your magazine example where you felt like you had to read all the magazines. I'm thinking about how we create all these arbitrary things that we have to do in our head and then we don't meet them and then that's a failure when there's so many things we could be doing and failing at honestly.

I'm thinking about a habit I have that I need to get rid of because I know it masquerades as happiness, but I know it actually drains me, which is it's similar to what you were saying. I have this habit where there's like 10 sites similar to your Apple news thing. I have like 10 sites. I have to read and I have it's like blog type site. So I have to read all their newest articles every night. So every day I have I pull up in a different tab every single new article from all these websites and then I have to like read them like who decided that? Like why do I have to read them? You know, but I'm like I'm like a mesh in it. It's just really interesting how we create these things in our head.

Jodi Wellman
Your example is so, so helpful because you highlight so perfectly how we fall into routines that they are comforting at first. For you, you felt like at some point when you started this habit, I guess, how did you get into the 10?

What was it doing for you at first that I was actually good?

Melanie Avalon
It was giving me, so every day I love my work so much, it just lights me up. So I'm pretty much doing work-related stuff all day.

So the one time I read non-work-related content is when I do intermittent fasting every day. So I have my one meal a day at night for like a long time, like four hours. And the first half of that I read books for prepping and then the second half I just read filler content. So it was, so that makes it even worse. It's stuff that I don't even need to be reading. It's not like it's like enhancing my life. So yeah, that's when that habit started.

Jodi Wellman
Well, on one hand, I just, well, by the way, I'm not trying to do some kind of therapy coaching session here, but what I hear, because you're emblematic of me and then probably everybody listening, it's like, well, we're so fast to judge ourselves and there's always that fine line because on one hand I go, oh, it is serving a purpose for you where you're consuming content in the first half of your marathon meal while you are doing it for work and you love it and so it's filling and you do need a little bit of an off switch. So I do think that there's time, like I talk about living a squander free life and a lot of people get really up on that language because they're like, no, but sometimes I want to squander my time and I say, oh, that to me isn't squandering.

If like spending a Saturday morning in bed, you know, reading or looking at photos from the week or texting friends makes you feel really good and restored, that's a delightful life for you on that morning. It's not squandering, meaning wasting your life and your time in a way that does give you that very distinct feeling in your stomach, like I've been wasting my time. Like so at some point we have to do that. OK, how much is it that it actually is OK for me to feel like I get to read these sites? I made up a rule that I have to do it. I don't have to. Nana, nana, nana. Now what would I want to do instead? Like what would just what would just make me feel good without pressure?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So the problem about it, because I do see it as my happy, like, okay, I'm just not, like, my debrief time.

The problem is this arbitrary rule I've created where I have to read all the new ones. And then that's the problem, is that, like, really weird rule.

Jodi Wellman
Think about how so many of us do that with various parts of our lives because that's the version of getting into like the habitual, routinized stuff that is, makes us, puts us an autopilot. And then those habits run our lives.

We're not being conscious and saying, Hey, I've got like 40 minutes here. What would actually make me feel like right now, some people want to say, I want to feel really alive and excited. Some people would say about 40 minutes. Ah, what would make me feel like a good sigh of relief? Like a bubble bath. Is it a bubble bath with a good glass of wine and my favorite playlist? Oh, that sounds good. Or is it like noticing the feeling that you want to have, but just being conscious about how you're deliberately spending that time? Cause if we are also come to the habits, like if it's a Saturday morning, I challenged my husband on this a lot because I sometimes think like, well, first of all, I'm a fan of shaking up sometimes a routine, but you need a routine to shake up in order for it to feel exciting. So there's, there's value in having a bit of a routine, but do we have to get up and then throw in the whites for the laundry and then do the walk and then do it this way and then like, there is a bit of a, here is what we do. And it can be comforting until it's not. So let's all interrogate, let's all interrogate our reality.

It'd be like, do I have to read all 10? What if I read my favorite three and then abandoned the others. And then when I came around to them on Thursday, there was actually, I get to pick the best of.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so if listeners aren't picking up on this, there's an entire chapter on habits and how they can make our life dull. You do have the pros and cons, but like you were saying, ways to shake it up.

I'm actually really curious because you make the suggestion that people read that chapter in like a different room or something. I really want to know how many people actually take you up on that.

Jodi Wellman
Well, I've heard about some people doing, like I, then, then sometimes it can just get even more exciting dialogue, like, well, what, where did you go to read? What did you do? And there are a couple of people I know that went and did it on like their favorite outdoor place, like at the beach, one person was saying, or one person said in the back of her backyard where she never goes and she sat and turned, she had these chairs that she would face out, but she turned and went to the backyard and turned and faced the chairs inward so that it was like a completely different view. You know how sometimes in life it's like, you just sit, you know, three seats over and your life's different, like you see a different thing.

I've known a couple of people who I'm a big fan of working out of hotel lobbies, cause they're just the often beautiful, you can loiter, you can people watch, sometimes it's better just to work on your laptop there rather than, you know, at home. And so a lot of people have, they, I think they, they know I like that. So they've been commenting sometimes like, I went to this, this hotel and I sat and I read this part of this chapter. I listened to this chapter. So anyway, and there's no right answer, right? Like even if it's just like while driving in the boring drive to something or while waiting for your kids in skating class, like just, just doing something just a little bit different cause our lives are craving just a little bit of a change of routine cause those are the things that make us feel alive.

Melanie Avalon
question, because this is what I was thinking when I was reading that chapter. If you don't perceive... So I feel like with my life, I really never feel bored. I feel really excited. I really like what I'm doing, and there's always so much to do.

In that experience, my habits... Honestly, my habits feel like they're what... They keep everything together. Let me get stuff done. Does it matter how bored you are with life as to how much you need to shake up your habits?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, it's such a good question. No one's ever asked me that.

I think the answer is yes. So sometimes in life, I guess it depends too philosophically on this notion of, like one of those, if it ain't broken, don't fix it. And then there's an asterisk on that. I'm like, yes. And of course we don't want to shake things up for the sake of it just because, unless there's the potential where you might say, I already have a lot of neat things going on. This is what I've heard you say. You're like, I already am excited. I don't feel like I am falling too much into ruts. And so on that instance, part of me is like, great. Then there are other areas you can focus on because there are no shortage of areas that we are working on. So for me, I would say backseat that. And that's where the rut also comes in. It's that you probably have a threshold that's higher than most if you are already doing things that feel interesting to you and you don't feel bored and you don't have that niggling sense that often the rest of us feel and that I often feel, which is that, oh, I think I could be doing more, like a couple more cool or exciting things or different things. So if you don't have the niggling, well, like, let's not make a problem. I used to consult. And there was a funny expression about consultants, like, you know, always basically having an answer to problems that people didn't even know they had yet. So no, let's not like stir the pot where it's already a tasty stew. Like let's not do that except for when you're feeling like, is my capacity actually so much greater than I even thought? Because I suspect you have probably even just a little more room in your elastic band of like, I could maybe just instead, I love this restaurant. I'm always going out to restaurants and I'm going to go to this restaurant and I'm going to, oh, I love the cob salad. So I'm going to order that. Like that might be the tiniest, littlest way for you just to go, I'm going to order the, you know, the, I don't know, chicken tikka masala instead, like just even the smallest little change. But no, I would say it's really designed for people like me that have the niggling or the nagging or the kicking or like the full body throttle of, you got, you want to, you need to do like, let's live a little more, you know, let's shake it up.

Melanie Avalon
Okay.

Well, interestingly, I do have the niggling.

I just feel like I should be doing more than I'm doing.

So it's kind of like approaching this unapproachable, approachable ideal of like always could be doing more typing.

Jodi Wellman
Right, back to the reflectionist line of like, that's where I do think that like having a nice, you know, reflective time with yourself in a place of peace and reflection is like, no, but really, like if I was to approach the end, would I feel like, oh, sweet Melanie, like you did all these cool things. I just wish you were cooler with yourself. Or would you be like, deathbed me who is just so wise, would be like, oh, you really, you really left a lot on the table, hun. Like you should have done more. Like what does your instinct say that the best, warmest, fuzziest, loving deathbed you would say?

Melanie Avalon
probably, probably just, you know, good job. Like, I think I think I'd be nice to myself.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I'd like to think that we all are at the end anyways. I mean, at that point. But we have that, you see, you know, deep down, you know that you're like, I know I'm hard on myself. I know I have the desire for more, which let's not tampon that down too much.

That's what gives you energy and that's what also is inspiring to other people. And then also, every now and then, I think the best we can do is just, because we're never going to, quote unquote, fix everything. So I've become kinder to myself lately and been like, okay, do your little things you do, your little flaws and faux pas. That's just what makes me human. And then just maybe on a regular basis, I'm just going to check in in a non-mean way and be like, okay, is there one little thing you want to do to make an adjustment to that? Or no, no, okay, I'll catch you in another month when I check in. That's all we can do. I love it.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I think the kindness to ourselves is so good.

Kind of like going back to the regrets thing, something that, and we kind of said this already, but just to crystallize it a little bit more, I don't remember where I read this, but it was in one of the guests I had on the show and they were talking about regrets and they were saying that, kind of like we were saying, you literally don't know what could have happened. So when you regret something, it actually could have been horrible. So there's really no point, like you just don't know. And like, it's just a small mindset shift, but that's been really helpful for me. Cause I'm like, okay, you know, I don't know what would have happened if I had done this other thing. Right.

Jodi Wellman
Right. Yeah. Some of us ruminate. Some of us definitely spend time with the, like, the coulda, shoulda, woulda, for some people can be, you know, very, you know, therapy inducing, right? And for some of us, it's just a little bit of a, the musing that can lead us to feeling dissatisfied or disappointed with ourselves.

And I'm just really interested in noticing when we are feeling those feelings of, oh man, I should have done this or hard on ourselves for XYZ or I'm not doing enough, just noticing like, well, what? Okay. Well, what's behind that? And is there one thing that would actually feel filling to me and then livening rather than, okay, I'm just going faster on the treadmill. And at some point, like I'm going to sprain an ankle, like if I keep going, like, or is this going to be good for me, you know, versus I'm just chasing something that I'll really never catch.

Melanie Avalon
Well, bringing that to a broader topic that I'm dying to talk about. So we're talking about, you know, well, we need to define things, but you have this really incredible research that you did where you created this scale of vitality and meaning and everybody's plotted on it in their four quadrants. So I'll let you tell listeners a little bit more about that setup.

One of the most, there's just so many little fascinating tidbits in your book that just stick with me so long. And one of the most mind blowing ones to me was, there was something about a study and it was saying that like happy people without meaning have the same stress response as like unhappy stressed people, I think. I was like, whoa, that's mind blowing to me.

Jodi Wellman
Right. Yeah, like meaning kind of matters and yet also vitality is. And so yeah, well, the research I do is about those two dimensions. So one is that idea of living wider in our lives, associated with vitality, having a sense of excitement and pleasure and doing different experiences and just, you know, it's like more of the traditional version of happiness.

And then there's the counterbalancing, which is deepening our life. And that's associated with the constructs of meaning and purpose and feeling like we've got these good quality relationships and, you know, maybe spirituality, insofar as that matters to you. And you can evaluate each one of those sort of spectrums. Like if you look at widening on a scale of one to 10, where am I? And then how deep is my life feeling right now? And with meaning on a scale of one to 10 and it pretty quickly comes into quadrants. And then of course now let's have fun with them and say like, where, where, what, first of all, what's the condition? And the most popular one by far is the one called meaningfully bored. And that's where people are more, you know, above average, like above zero on meaning, like they're like, okay, yeah, I've got enough meaning in my life. I, maybe for them, they have a job that feels purposeful and, or they are, I don't know, parents are looking after an aging dad, like I'm doing right now. And that can feel meaningful. Woohoo. But meaningfully bored means I'm okay on meaning, but I'm not feeling like I have enough on vitality. And that's where it's like, I feel kind of bored or I'm doing just these things. I'm going through the motions, but I feel like I want to spice it up and try something different. I want to learn how to, you know, play the harmonica or I want to go and have more fun with my friends again, or the feeling about feeling alive in that vitality way. So that's the most common one.

And with my research ranges between like 39 and 41% of people self-identify there. And just, I'm not going to go through each one in detail unless you really want me to, but like the opposite of that would be vitally empty, which where it's like, Oh, I'm having fun. Woohoo, fun. I'm exhausted by it, but I don't have a lot of meaning. And then there's the dead zone where like not a lot of vitality or meaning, like barely hanging on. And then the zone we really all want to get to most often, of course, is astonishingly a live zone. And that's where we are feeling like, okay, good. Like I'm okay on meaning. Woohoo. And, oh, good. I'm also okay on vitality. And just always trying to edge those up a little bit, or the very least just stay in those zones. That's all.

Melanie Avalon
So if listeners are thinking about it, the x-axis is vitality and the y-axis is meaning. Is that correct? You got it.

So up, up and down is the meaning and, you know, like Jodi was saying, the width is the vitality. So, so I'm kind of like a, I'm like, I'm like both a math brain and a creative brain. So I get kind of stuck on like graphs and things. So I have a question about the actual graph. The numbers, so because you mentioned like 1 through 10, are those relative to the person? Because my 10, my experience of 10 might not be your experience of 10, like from looking at it on paper. And if, if it's, if it's all the same scale, then that means somebody's points would be skewed because the number, you know, so how do we account for people's perception of what 1 through 10 means?

Jodi Wellman
Yes, exactly. So the research I do does not have a number of one through 10 that would then assign like a judgment that well, over seven is XYZ. So I ask questions that get at where people are at feeling wise, but the separate conversation is one to 10 and it is entirely relative. I feel like if you can tell by the tone of my voice, like almost like breathless and defensive about it, because I kind of walked myself into a corner because I called the one the best quadrant astonishingly alive. So the assumption is that your life needs to look and sound and feel astonishing, like at least on the outside looking in.

And I mean, you know, if I didn't put the fucking words astonishingly alive everywhere, I would like redo it, but it's already done. So I just want to say it's all relative, like my version of an astonishingly alive life involves so much time curled up on the couch with a really soft blanket and a good drink and Andy, the cat and the husband and reading and or watching TV, like that for me is like, oh, can I please do that most nights of the week? Please, please. And someone else might look at that and say that that's for them, like the dead zone and or that that's not the life they want to live. And that's cool. Like you go do the thing you want to do. So it is entirely about your perception of what makes you feel alive in both spectrums, what makes you feel alive, like you've had enough fun. And then what makes you also feel like you've had enough meaning. And it could be very different from your neighbor or from your partner or from your kid or from your dog.

Melanie Avalon
that completely makes sense. Yeah, like my astonishingly aliveness is actually it's, it's similar to you.

So I actually like I'm very introverted, but I like to go out like once a week and like, have the, you know, the excitement and the litter and the all the thing and then I'm good. Then I have to recover.

Jodi Wellman
Yes. Oh, okay. Can I just say, well, first of all, we're two peas in a pod here. I know that I can't be a hermit for too long or else I do feel dead inside, but I have these little doses and spurts where it's like, I want to do a thing and then I feel good about myself.

And I literally will say and jokingly to the husband, they'll be like, we did a thing. I'm so excited that there's something that was, ooh. But my capacity for it is very limited. And I'm writing a blog post right now that'll come out on Monday around this idea about some of us are, I'm calling us experienced minimalists where we, or experience efficiency where we can go to a game or a concert or a thing. And I don't know if you're like this, but many people are myself included, go and yay, get the essence of it, but I don't need to say till the end. Like I just want to get a little taste of it and then I want to get home. But I still feel really good about myself that yay, we went to the concert and we listened to five songs. Like that's good for me.

So I think some of us can be very efficient with the way we experience it. And that's astonishingly life for some of us. And then someone else says, no, I am there to listen to the second encore. And I am also the one closing the bar down. And that for me makes me feel alive and like, high five to you. Good for you and good to me and good to everyone. We're all relative.

Melanie Avalon
I love this. Yeah, for me, it's kind of like a scheduled container of my experience. And I like to exist in that container. And then I come back.

I was actually thinking about I realized I like to have because I'm, I don't know if you use this phrase or did you use the phrase scheduled ambiguity in the book?

Jodi Wellman
Oh, I think I did, yes. Like the schedule's spontaneity as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, because I am not good with spontaneity. So when people are like, you want to do this? Now I'm like, no.

Is that on the plan? Is this in the plan? But I can schedule ambiguity. I can schedule a time where I'm going to do something that might have less scheduling inside of it, and that works well for me.

Jodi Wellman
I was just going to ask you actually about spontaneity because those of us who like a nice organized life, I'm looking at you, me too, I sometimes pine for a life that has a little more spontaneity, but I'm not prepared to live it. I'm not prepared in the moment to say yes to a drink, but no, I have to get psyched up and I'm not ready for that.

But those of us, I think we're spontaneity curious. Well, what would it be like to have that life? How could I do it? And I do think we can allow for those little breaths of, ooh, I went into that store that I've never been in before, even though ... So those are like contained moments where we've got Saturday morning where it's like we're allowed on this road trip to take one exit early and I'll see where that leads us. It's funny because we were driving home from Scottsdale yesterday on a little weekend and the husband, we were joking about spontaneity and he's like, he knew joking that I was going to say no. And he's like, do you want me to get off one exit early? And I was like, God no, who knows what kind of neighborhood we could end up in? That's ridiculous. But we can make room for even just tiny, sweet little bits of spontaneity that do again make us feel a little bit of that sense of novelty that is crucial to the feeling of being alive and experiencing new things.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And I think it just highlights even more like you were saying with the relativeness of the scale. So it's really what makes you feel like you have meaning and you feel like you're alive.

So if a person is at zero, and you talk about this in the book, is it easier or more effective, or does it depend on the person trying to infuse meaning first or vitality first, or should you try to find something that has both things?

Jodi Wellman
The answer really should be, it depends on the person. Because for example, if we're just feeling kind of dead zony and some of it could be clinical, like it could be a depression issue, but some of it is also just circumstantial in a phase of life or just like, wow, I have been putting my head down at work forever and that was good, but now I'm just finding myself kind of bored and empty and I want to re-engage with life.

The, you know, if, if you know you have a fast track to feeling alive, then that's your answer right away, right? It could be just like, and sometimes we forget, like you are your best example. Like what, when were you feeling alive? What were you doing? And so someone might say it was, oh, it was when I was volunteering at the senior center, it'd be like, well, go do that on Saturday and like that. And that is more meaningful, although maybe it's fun. I don't know. I can't imagine how that's super fun, but like, whatever that could be like your fast tracking, but traditionally and according to research and just, you know, experience with, with sort of psychological science, it is often easier to widen with vitality first and then find ways to deepen with meaning because vitality is sort of like, it could be as simple as just something as silly as getting a pack of bubble gum and having a bubble bum, bubble bubble gum blowing thing with your friend or like it could be, wow, I'm just going to try that brunch at that place I've never had before. And, and is it like, I talked to a guy this morning who was saying he just wanted just something a little bit different, but didn't really want to shake his life up. And so they went to a Moroccan restaurant and it was terrible. And they loved the fact that it was terrible. Cause now they got to joke about it when they got home, how terrible it was. And so that's a whole other topic, like being okay with the fact that it, it may be a bust, but that's all just fodder for laughter later anyway, but it's, we're usually the opportunities to widen our lives with vitality are a little more plentiful or take a little bit less effort because sometimes meaning is something that can come from traditionally something that might take a little more time, like forging a deeper friendship with somebody or I mean, spirituality as an example can be really meaningful people for people. And that could come in a 10 minute meditation. So that doesn't have to mean you're going on a retreat or that you are donating sums of money to a good cause. So now I just feel like I'm rambling, but I would say vitality is often the sneaky way in the door to feeling more lively. And when you start to feel a little more like, Oh, okay, like life's getting lived around here a little more, then you might start to go on the volunteer site and start to find ways to deepen as well.

Melanie Avalon
Do you think there's a genetic piece to it or because I'm just thinking about it And it just feels like it feels like kind of like you're saying going, you know, go a sneakier way in the door. It it feels eat maybe I haven't tried this with enough people but it feels easier to try to Find something fun where somebody's gonna you know, have fun doing it compared to if somebody doesn't perceive having meaning It's like, how do you?

Give that to them

Jodi Wellman
You're right yeah there's also a lot of baggage in our society about purpose i think around. There's there's a intimidation around it and then self judgment and then that sounds super fun like is what i'm doing it does this have purpose is it big enough where is. If we just know like hey you know what i used to kinda like it when i was doing those coloring books for a while. Okay well order on amazon by tomorrow night you'll have a coloring book on your doorstep and you can just see if that makes you feel kind of like this is kind of neat again does it spark a little creativity or does it send you out in the way you want and that's just a little bit easier with less pressure now.

Can i just be honest as i say that because i'd be remiss i'm trying to make it sound like oh sparking vitality is just you know judgment free and easy and i'm you can't see me now but i'm raising my right eyebrow where i'm like. Many of us are afraid to live like it takes a lot of courage actually to live a life that we dream of because it's laced usually with this notion of fear that. Like we could all use this as an example say you tune in and say yeah you know what i was really liking my life when i was doing two things. I was active like i was going for walks i was like every now and then i'd go to the gym but it was mostly just because i was like walking or maybe jogging a bit i don't know if people still say jogging. Okay because it's like somewhere between i feel like everyone says running i'm not in the runner world right me neither but like i feel like jogging is like i don't know it's not just from the seventies so. But that maybe it was you're really active or the end maybe it's that wow it was when i was. Painting you know i would get a watercolors and i would and so the obvious inferences okay well what would it take to get back to jogging and painting. But then it's like it's not that easy or else we'd all be out there doing the things we knew used to light us up because there's often as like a hurdle towards.

Oh but i don't want to go out there and start to walk or jog and feel unfit cuz i don't like i used to jog for like an hour or 40 minutes and now i'm not gonna be able to do that. And that well therefore i'll just stay in because i don't want to face the emotional people of feeling like a unfit failure same thing about painting. I don't know like it is so like if i painted i just i'm rusty it's been seven years so i don't want to pull out a watercolor thing and just start and feel. Like it's ugly so i'd rather preserve my delicate emotional state and just choose actually as a word in the book. Play not to lose rather than play to win you know like i'll play it safe i'll just i don't know not do it. And that is a lot safer if you don't jog and you don't paint watercolors you will not feel feelings like oh i'm not really good. But you'll also never feel feel you'll also feel a different feeling which i'll always argue until my death bed i'll argue to the end it is also that feeling of life.

Jodi Wellman
Going on lived where you kind of have these things you are interested in you want to do where you want to try doesn't have to be rekindling an old thing it could be like i've just really wanted to try. Macrame or i've always really wanted to go and take that class in mixology for the bar or in bookbinding.

But by not doing it there's a cost we pay there's a price that exacts and it's one little deadening thing at a time and i think that that's what gets us in the dead zone is that we know we're lacking the courage to live. And unfortunately it just like it like you can't my posture now i'm like caving over like one inch at a time until now basically i look like i'm like ready to die. Sorry i'm just extremely performance based over here.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, man, actually speaking to everything you just said, I think one of the biggest barriers that I personally experienced and it wasn't, there's kind of an overlap. And I think a lot of people with health issues experience this where when you get stuck in a state of being that you don't like to be in, so like this dead zone or like if you have health issues, the sadness that comes with realizing you actually could be a different way, it's like it shines a light on all the time that you perceive as lost. And I think that can be really scary.

Like, so it's like if you're in this dead zone and you realize, oh, I could be doing this and having fun. If you do that, it means you lost you, well, you're probably telling yourself that, but you feel like you lost all this time. And I think that can keep people stuck.

Jodi Wellman
What a good point. That's so interesting. My mind is immediately thinking of a couple directions. One is based in what I think is just fascinating research that I think Laura King is the psychologist who researches this called Lost Possible Selves. It's this notion – back to the idea we were talking about earlier – you have this version of yourself that's your ideal self. But sometimes you have to grieve in a way the person that you didn't become. Some of it is because the ship sailed. Like, wow, I never got to be the chief marketing officer and maybe you're retiring. You grieve that didn't pan out for you. That's maybe tough and that's okay because XYZ or grieving that you didn't start that business or that you didn't.

Now, I will always then interject and say, are we sure we have to grieve because it's something we could still pursue? But we have to acknowledge. You're right. To your point, which I think is a more fascinating psychological series of events, if I start something, I am acknowledging all the stuff I wasn't doing. It's all or nothing thinking. If I start something, there's also a lot of pressure that now I'm the type of person who does this and I'm not the type of person who doesn't. I don't know if I can handle that. I used to meditate and I enjoyed it and I fell off and I'm curious about going back, mostly just because the research is so compelling that it's so good for you and all my friends who do it, I'm like, all right, already, like, I know it's supposed to be good, but I don't know that I have this hangup that I feel like I'd rather not be a meditator and think I'm going to be someday than be a meditator again and then feel the pressure that I have to be a meditator, but also be disappointed that my life doesn't change in the ways that I hope my life will change when I become a meditator. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, how long did you meditate for?

Jodi Wellman
Poof, I did it for probably five years for 20 minutes every morning.

Melanie Avalon
I have so many thoughts. So I did like a meditation. So meditation comes up all the time, especially with this show, because it's such a part of health and wellness. So it comes up all the time.

I did a 20 minute a day program for like a month. I don't think I'm a meditator. Like, like, like

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, kind of like how we're not runners. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. What makes you say that?

Melanie Avalon
Well, so I feel like I gained profound skills from it. Like I feel like I, and I don't like saying this because I feel like it sounds pretentious, but I feel like I gained a lot. Like I learned like, oh, my thoughts are separate than me. And like, it really crystallized that for me.

I just found, and maybe if I kept going, it would have changed. I found that doing the practice, kind of like you mentioned, like being a meditator and then feeling like you're not a good meditator and you have to keep doing it, that that's, it stressed me out. Like it added more stress to my life, I think.

Jodi Wellman
Yes. Okay. I'm just loving talking with you about this because I love how you normalize things, but it's also like, let's accept for a second. Like we spend a lot of time trying to overcome things and be like, I'm going to become that person. But you're making me think like there's a lot of people, people do breath work. I don't even think I like to breathe. Like I don't even know, like it's optional. But when I, I'm sure it's like life inducing and everything, but like I don't enjoy breath work. It makes me my, I don't like it. I feel like kind of like what you described about not liking meditation. So I'm like, right now I just decided it like, like, fuck breath work. Like I'm just not going to be the person who is like chastising herself, even like 0.08% for not, oh, there's another thing I'm not doing for myself. No, I hereby decree that this woman will not breathe other than shallow breaths that I need to breathe. Now, of course, I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, why do I have to like, like, ironically, I still do corporate work for teams and I talk about, you know, helping them overcome dealing with negative feedback and embracing conflict. And I can teach anybody how to do it, but I've come to realize I do not enjoy conflict in my life. And rather than the uphill battle that I consistently face with trying to face conflict, it's like, I think I'm just going to accept like, I'm going to avoid situations that put me in it. Like, for example, leadership, I left leadership because I didn't want to have to manage people and deal with conflict about telling them why they fell short or whatever, whatever. I'm like, I'll just live a life where I don't have to do that anymore. And I like my life better. So I think selectively we can disengage, which is a judicious way of living a life well-lived, I think. So yeah, you don't have to meditate, I don't have to breathe or face conflict, which, you know, good luck with that. And look at us, we're happy.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. There are so many things that you can move towards that you want to do. It's like why not do the things that will have similar effects, but you actually want to be doing them.

So the effects of meditation, if it's helping with your anxiety or your brain, I don't know. There's a lot of other things. This may be justifying, not meditating, but there's other things I could be doing that I actually really enjoy. And life's too short, I think, to spend time on stuff we...

Jodi Wellman
Can we also accept that timing is everything? So I refer in the book somewhere to this notion of time, like there's Kronos and Kairos, these two different, oh, I loved that. Yes. There's this notion like Kronos is this measuring of time in the way we traditionally do it. Like I, you know, I've got this Zoom call at 4 and then I've got this thing and we're like abiding by schedule and time in the most common way we know it.

But Kairos is more of a, think of it more like a philosophical way of looking at time, like quote unquote, is it, is the time right for, you know, opportunities or to know that inner knowing that we're often like not even in touch with, like, is now the time that I should start to look for a different job? Or is now the time that I should, you know, go back on the dating apps or is now the time, et cetera, et cetera. So I think if we accept that our lives are just full of all these beautiful chapters and we get to make changes and we get to edit it as we go, you know, hopefully we ruthlessly edit and we just do all these things, I might accept and you might accept like we could talk again in five years and we'll be like, we, maybe we're leading a freaking breathing meditation class, like, cause maybe we've just, the time was right for us in five more years to be like, huh, it came around. Like I feel that way about spirituality. I'm not feeling spiritual pulls in my life right now. And I somehow suspect that Kairos, the timing will come for whatever reason, hopefully not a catastrophe that'll just make me feel really in tune with spirituality. And that chapter of my life will open itself up to that page of the book.

Melanie Avalon
What I love about language is how it shows you things in the world that you wouldn't see unless there was a word for it. So I hadn't really contemplated this idea of the right time to do something compared to chronological time on a clock.

And now it's like, oh, that's like a whole other concept. And I just, it's brilliant.

Jodi Wellman
Yes, yes. I love how different cultures have different words that don't even have like in English, for example, like there's no way to say it, you know, and I don't you love that, like that there are feelings and constructs and whole other mind blowing ways that we don't even aware of.

I think it's beautiful.

Melanie Avalon
I found it really interesting, the connection, this is at three different pillars, but happiness, money, and time. How does money relate to happiness?

And also how can we use money to buy time for happiness? Can we do that?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Money, you know, slightly loaded topic for some of us, right? Like, but we have typically a notion that money is associated with happiness and research shows that depending on the study you're looking at, that it used to be 75 grand, that it was 100 grand, and that there is evidence that if you're making under that much per household, that your life is going to be challenged in a way that it might compromise your perception of life satisfaction. And then when you get to 75 or 100, depending again on the study, that interestingly, your happiness does not increase in proportion with your income.

Does it increase, just not in proportion? No, it's funny because it typically doesn't. And when you get north of even 250 grand, and I can be edited, I'm going to rough, I'm guesstimating the numbers here, but does money make you happy? And we know that in theory it doesn't, but we also know that it can make your life a lot easier, especially again, and especially if you're below the poverty line, it's actually very important from almost like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs thing. However, money does afford us literally the opportunity to shape our lives in ways that can be kind of cool financially and in experience. Like research is clear, if you can buy time so that frees you up to do things that might bring you more joy, it's often worth it. So Martin Seligman is the founder of Positive Psychology. And I studied under him in his program at University of Pennsylvania. And one of the notes I underlined and highlighted and bolded and made very clear was just this notion. Maybe I just needed to hear it personally was, if you can, for example, afford to hire somebody to, maybe it's like clean on your weekend so that you can go out and enjoy life in a very meaningful or like concerted way, or even just for you, if that means like going and sitting in the middle of the woods and forest bathing, if you're into that, that is money well spent.

So if you could outsource as much as you can afford it, and realistically, that has been shown to create, again, more perceptions of happiness and satisfaction rather than toiling and doing something that maybe someone else could cut your lawn or someone else could do this spreadsheet for you or your taxes. So that's one opportunity. And just another one that stands out just right now is this notion of being generous is such a beautifully selfish thing for your own happiness. So it's like really win-win. And there's a study that I recently came across, and you know what, I can source it if I'm smart enough to find the right book, you should see me, I'm surrounded as I'm sure you are by books. There's a study, actually, I think I have it over here, where people were given in a study, they found 200 people and they got a really big donor, they gave them 10 grand each, and said, okay, you can spend it on whatever you want, go nuts. Research, appallingly and shockingly came back in ways that I would have never argued or expected. And this, by the way, is research that was as recent as 2023.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I'm so excited to hear this. Okay, so they gave $10,000.

Jodi Wellman
Yes, they were given 10 grand and the only requirement actually was that they had to spend it within three months and so I guess I'm leading the witness here because I'm telling you I was surprised by it But whatever there gets the question really comes down to what percent did participants in the study Spend on things that benefited others like including charity gifts and stuff But like stuff that benefited others like what do like what would most people think right?

Melanie Avalon
Who are these people?

Jodi Wellman
It was like basically if you if i give you ten grand and within three months i come back around and say okay let's audit like how did you spend it.

Melanie Avalon
but it was just random people they gave it to.

Jodi Wellman
Well, actually, thanks for clarifying. They were from low-income countries where they had like a median household income of like less than eight grand because they were again from countries that were like they were To do it was a low income.

So I think it was Kenya, Indonesia, Brazil and again, I could be quoted here we could link to the actual study but Like wouldn't you think most people would be like woohoo. I just got 10 grand. This is almost doubling my yearly income I'm gonna go like what hog wild and buy a watch or something

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, hearing hearing who it is. If it was like Americans, like medium income Americans, I would have thought, yeah, buying the watch.

But if it was like low income, did it I don't, did they give away a lot?

Jodi Wellman
Yeah. So here are the results from the study, which I just found the name of it by R.J. Dwyer et al. from 2023. Are people generous when the financial stakes are high? They said, on average, participants in the study spent over $6,400, so 64%, on things that benefited other people, including charity. And so now the good news about it, again, is not just that, oh, wow, people are actually more generous than we think.

It's that the research is clear that a return on that investment from our own well-being is astronomical. So if you somehow come across $100 and you find a way that you take a friend to lunch, or you help them fill up their gas tank, or you do the thing that helps somebody else, it makes you feel like a billion bucks and like, literally, I made up a billion. That's not the number. But you know, giving is well-being inducing. And in a life that is short and our Mondays are fleeting, every little hack we have to like life more, why not take it? So being generous is one way. Spending money on other people is actually a way to buy happiness is another way to say it.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. Yeah, I love that. I think for me, I found that should be the main thing I spend it on. But for me, I found that spending money on experiences is what really makes me happy.

Jodi Wellman
Oh, like rather than things like.

Melanie Avalon
items? A reason I think having money does lead to happiness is it opens doors to do things you want to do in life, which is helpful.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think there's the cliche, you know, of the rich person who has the yacht and all the things, but again, they've got access to everything, but you know, in the absence of quality relationships or some sort of a sense of purpose or some sort of a, like, you know, all the vitality in the world still can't make you happy.

So there's that extreme sort of stereotype, but then what you are describing is that if we are intentional and we really do stop and we really do think and we have the means and money can't help make that happen. And like you said, it means creating an experience that, you know, I'm thinking of a friend of mine who just went on a really life-changing trip. She went and saw the spots where the Holocaust occurred and she learned and she, it was deep for her and it impacted some of the work she did when she returned back to Boston and it was a bonding time also with her family and in unique ways. And so that's like, whatever that cost, like that's back to, I guess, what is it, the MasterCard ad, like it's priceless, you know, some of these things are these experiences. That's a campaign that should never die. Right. That's pretty good. Like that is priceless. So these experiences, right. Or even just the experience where, you know, you might go and, you know, register for a cooking class that sparks an interest that changes the trajectory of your life because maybe you just kick off and you eat like fabulous, healthy foods and turn vegan and it changes your life. Or maybe you end up changing your profession because you now know, I just, even though the lifestyle is treacherous working at night, I still want to work in a kitchen or these are, these are like the experiences can lead us in directions. If we are open to them, that can help shape the paths we take in really magical ways, it's an adventure. You know, even when we don't think it is, this is a, it's just a freaking adventure.

Melanie Avalon
magical adventure. I agree. I love that word.

What's really interesting too, I've had this conversation multiple times when I'm having said experience, you know, where I am doing something I really love, like, you know, going to theater and things like that. The perception and the respect of the scale, I find it really interesting that, like, the meaning part of it, culture views as, like, serious and what you should pursue. And the vitality one, it's like it's not okay to, you know, really enjoy life. Like, that is somehow shallow or taking away from other people. I'm very fascinated by this concept when really, like, if you're doing something you love and it feels great, that's just more love and goodness in the world, in my opinion. I'm fascinated by this concept.

Jodi Wellman
I think you started to ask something earlier and I didn't go to it about like, is some of this genetic, like our, we have, we have predilections, I guess, and it's also some of its nature and nurture, like if your parents, you know, raised you to, you know, always be helping in your community or maybe always being activists for good causes or sometimes meaning is just something that you're, you have a value system where you will yearn for that in ways that some other family growing up in a different family, they weren't exposed to that. Maybe in that instance, you know, the pleasure spectrum, the width, you know, of, of life with vitality, there might've been judgment associations to like, you know, life is short, get out there, try it all, go to the buffet, but it could have also been like, it's hedonistic to enjoy yourself too much and, you know, you, you, you stop it, we know, like half a cookie and that's it and you don't, you know, so I think so much of it is interesting and like worth untangling, like what were my messages growing up and do I need to, to live by them now?

What kind of life actually does make me feel fulfilled? Like, you know, again, back to our threshold, some people have a greater need for fun and experience and also novelty and some people have a greater need for the eudaimonic dimension of wellbeing, which is that area of meaning and purpose and I think for me it's like, hey, whatever floats your boat, but I will say if there is judgment around the pleasure component around the width and vitality, well, I mean, that sucks first of all, but second of all, it's like, let's consider the parent that is trying to do to build it, to build a relationship or maybe a leader at work, you know, trying to set a good example about being virtuous and virtuous is often associated more with the depth and the meaning. I would also say, and this is coming from someone who's biased because I am a fan of vitality, but it's based in research, it's not just preference, that when you do role model for your kids or for your team or for your friends or for even for your spouse or anybody you care about, the idea of getting out there and enjoying life, that it leads to positive emotion and positive emotion has a real scientific backing, but it's more than just a nice feel good, woohoo, great, I had a good time, I had a good dinner. It's that it actually broadens your perspective. Barbara Fredrickson is the researcher on this and she's got broadened and build theory where it makes you see through a broader lens more opportunities, innovation, more broader perspectives, which is really important in a diverse community. It leads to other things and so there is actual scientific value in going out there and pursuing really good emotions and it's also just good, I think, to be the role model of someone who gets to go out and enjoy time off and restoration and vacation and fun and interest because I think people around us are looking for a little bit of permission.

Jodi Wellman
Like if your boss goes and makes time for really, you know, for their activities, like, oh, I'm leaving tonight for my, I don't know, glass blowing class and then on Saturday I'm so excited because I'm going to be going to learn how to roll sushi and then like if your boss is doing all these things and making, showing that they're not working all the time, these are the, and this is what I do with some teams in corporate settings is like helping each other hold one another accountable to the interesting things that you might be curious about but maybe culturally or in your team you don't feel like you can do. But the best part is that, again, I keep coming back to research, I'm a broken, frickin' record that teams that experience the most vitality, they are the ones that actually perform better.

Like there is a huge ROI on this so like any leader interested in performing while achieving great results, it's that if your team is engaged outside of work also, then they come in and they're more engaged inside of work so for me this is almost like the sneakiest way to a good team. All right, I'm going to get off my soapbox, my vitality soapbox.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. And it's reminding me of something I wanted to ask you about also related to this time and doing things that we love. So this is something that when you talked about it in the book, I just lit up because it's so crucial to my vitality and happiness in life. And I have experienced the barriers that people have against it.

So I'm curious your thoughts on that, which is this idea of making time more visceral and adding anticipation. So the importance of scheduling things in advance that you know you want to do and having that on the calendar. This is not what keeps me going, but I love this. So I love knowing I'm going to this show on this date and it's throughout the year. It's one of my favorite things. I love the anticipation. And then it finally comes. Some people, and I think in the book you say to schedule something or wait, was it just maybe I'm mixing topics. There's something about doing something in the next week, month, and year. The barrier I come up against is some people, the idea of a plan, it's like now they're committed. They feel trapped by it. And this is so interesting to me because plans make me feel free. And they give me, because I know I'm doing this thing at this time. And if the time comes and I can't do it, that's fine. And I just love this anticipation. But some people are not planners and they don't like it. So what are your thoughts there?

Jodi Wellman
I love all these topics so much that I'm like losing my breath so that you're so right because anticipation in the school of positive psychology is one of the easiest ways to latch on to just happiness because if you have something to look forward to not only do you get to enjoy it presumably when it shows up but that you get to you know look forward to the trip or to the concert or to visiting your friends and research is actually clear too that people actually enjoy the experience of anticipating a trip more than they often like the trip itself because like the trip is where the stupid stuff happens right like where you get a sunburn or where you know whatever happens whereas you get to fantasize about this amazing trip on the way so that's where designing a life again I'll come back to your main point which is that unless it feels like it's going to ruin your life but having stuff that is on the horizon is the cheap and cheerful way to be like like we're good I'm really looking forward to that class or I'm looking forward to that brunch or I'm looking forward to that trip if you are the type of person where plans make you feel like all the spontaneity's been zapped out of your life then I will just ask you one question and say hey that's cool like we're not trying to make life worse are you doing enough things though because if you're already Mr.

Jodi Wellman
or Mrs. spontaneous or like hey I'm cool like on the weekend or at least a few nights a week or to the degree that I feel alive I am going out and seeing some friends or I am going and taking that sound bath class or I am going and learning something new then I would say like rock on good for you then don't plan a darn thing if it makes you feel trapped however this is where I'm just gonna sort of do that there is often a trade-off because a lot of people will say like I do workshops and they're like yeah I don't really want to feel constricted and I'll say hey I totally get you what feels worse for you in all honesty is it that feeling constricted or at the end of a month say feeling like or the end of a summer sometimes because some of us still think of things in the in the time space of like this summer because you know growing up it's always this block of time or like the the holidays between you know the end of the year and new year's like quote unquote if you feel like I didn't really do anything or I feel like I squandered it back to that word of squandering if you're feeling squanderlicious like you're squandering a lot that's where it might be like one of those things about you might need to eat your veggies you might need to okay fine reluctantly plan a couple things in the calendar because at the end of that month or summer or holiday or whatever you're gonna end up feeling like okay at least I went and I saw the nutcracker you know or I went and I did get to go and do that hike rather than not doing it at all because life will pass us by it's just designed to do that does that make sense it's like sometimes diagnose the problem like if you're like no I'm fine I don't need to plan anything and I'm doing enough things well then then keep trudging on babe like great

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And then the Nutcracker was a perfect example because we were recording this in April and I literally last week just bought tickets to the Nutcracker in December. I just love the idea of, you know, looking forward to that for months.

And where are you gonna see it? Here at the Fox Theater in Atlanta. You should come, I have a ticket.

Jodi Wellman
Oh my gosh! Wouldn't that be so fun? Only I want to see you dance on the stage, although I realize that's probably a little premature. A little soon. You can audition, Elise, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. The tension that comes up with me and my friends and this planning thing is, I have a few friends like this, but I have one friend, for example, who will not make plans to go out. She will not plan. I have to make plans to go out. So it's like we can't hang out because I need a plan.

She won't make a plan. So now I have to plan for myself and then I have to spontaneously ask her. And then if she says no, then I just do work instead.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, yeah, or yeah, that's super tricky. And you're defining what I've seen a lot in like marital relationships or committed relationships, right? Because that's like the daily, weekly, monthly year, like lifetime focus, which is like, how do we be with each other when my needs are different than yours? It sounds like you're coming up with that kind of just the only compromise there is with each other.

And it might end up meaning like if your needs are that you do like to have things organized so that life happens. And that's, by the way, like, that is what I refer to in the book, and pretty much any soapbox anyone will let me stand on. That is the difference often between a life that feels lived and unlived at the end, it's that we have good intentions. And the road to the grave is paved with brimmingly full bucket lists. We have not thoughts and ideas about, oh, we should get together, oh, we should do that thing or oh, but then life will take over and we don't do it. So planning is the difference maker.

And you're doing it because it works for you. And if it doesn't for her, well, I guess maybe that's just like, well, then reevaluating the expectations that chances are then we're probably only going to get together a couple of few times a year, just based on the way that our styles are, right? You're kind of incompatible. But it does sound like, I don't mean for in a friendship, but like your ways of organizing your friendship aren't systematically the same. And so, okay, maybe, yeah, find more planning friends. Maybe that's it.

Melanie Avalon
That was one of my favorite moments of the book and it's near the end and you're like, you know, here's the grand secret how to make this happen. And it's like your calendar. I'm like, yes.

Jodi Wellman
Now you're like you're speaking directly into my heart

Melanie Avalon
I know. Don't stop me yet. I had a good time.

Well, okay, speaking of revisiting the end of life, because I feel like we've danced around and talked about it quite a bit, the death stuff. But that's a huge, huge part of the book, the mental mori and the perception of death. And I have some really big questions about it. One huge question I have is I have perceived for me, I definitely self-identify with, oh man, I told myself I was going to remember how to say this word. There's the fear of aging, it's like, geroscophobia, it's an excessive fear of aging, thought to be caused by a mixture of cognitive, experiential, and physiological factors, acting on a person, and measurement tools remain insufficiently developed despite this commonplace fear of distress. Yeah, geroscophobia or excessive fear of aging skills. So I definitely harbor this fear. It's partly one of the reasons I have a biohacking podcast about longevity. Interestingly, I don't really perceive having a fear of death. One of my family members has had a really intense fear of death. So this fear of death, which you make the strong case in the book that we all harbor, or do we all have a fear of death that we deal with? And how does it how does it differ from fear of aging?

Jodi Wellman
Fear of death may be better described as say like just our feelings about death and so on a spectrum, yeah, for sure some people are devastatedly and really don't want to talk about it, don't want to think about it, it's just very palpable. And then ranging over to the sort of thought of what's my attitude towards it? Like I know it's coming, but it's okay, it's fine. The range of that just what I always find interesting, I never lose a chance to echo this research about how often our feelings about death and our subsequent fears about it have to do with our perception of whether we've really lived and that to me of course is like very conveniently, you know, supporting my cause which is like, hey guys, let's get out there and leave like again, whatever that means to you because that perception that I've gone out there, I've done the things, yeah, I didn't have time to do it all, but you know, I feel like I kind of killed it and that kind of makes us feel gender really like okay, the inevitable thing coming, like I will generally feel like at least I did what I could on my end before I died versus the fear of leaving life unlived is often the thing that makes it feel unbearable for some people. So just wanted to throw that little advertisement for, you know, living wide and deep until we get there that could ameliorate some of the fear.

But your point about aging, like the fear of aging versus death, it's really, really cool and I must write a blog post on this, thanks for the idea. What I think is happening is that the fear of aging is nestled into the fear of death because aging is a representation of finality, it is a very stark visual reminder for many of us, some of us more rapidly than others, about how we are temporary. So the aging experience is associated with something that we are trying to deny that we are, you know, generally our ways of approaching our fear of death is to deny it, to avoid it, to not talk about it, to change the subject and so anybody who's listening to this podcast still, oh my God, you're amazing and hopefully, you know, you keep listening. The emblematic part is when I start to see wrinkles or when I start to see gray or a former client of mine, we caught up earlier, I guess last week and she needs a knee replacement and she says, I'm just really reluctant to do it because for some reason in my head, I'm telling myself that if I go and get my knee replaced, I'm admitting that my body is no longer serving me and I'm going to put a fake part in and it's just the beginning of the end, like my body is not cutting it and that means like almost like this general acceptance, same thing about back, basically back to the aging experience overall. So I think the ways in which we approach things in life, they call them boundary situations in psychology, big monumental moments, like it could be a divorce or retiring from work or it could be, you know, moving out of the family home because the kids have left and it's like empty nest and you do downsize,

Jodi Wellman
that's a boundary moment to make you go whoa, like my mortality is really, it really is a thing. Aging is one of those boundary moments traditionally and some people feel hit harder by it than others, just like how some people like, yeah, whatever turning 40 or 50 or 60, like doesn't matter to me and some people it's, you know, very eye opening.

So I would say everyone's results may vary, you know, for some people they're like, yeah, I don't really think it's death, but aging really scares me. Of course I'm going to go and I'm going to think it's also part of the bigger picture, but I won't, I won't out you at a party or anything. But I would also say some people are very afraid of the idea of dying and they will do everything they can to try and feel symbolically immortal, like, you know, have all the kids donate all the money and get their name on the wall and like write a book and have all the things that will help hopefully live on beyond them. And they could care less about gray hair. So I think they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Melanie Avalon
It's interesting, and I think, so hearing that, I feel like what it may be for me, and this is just me coming up with this right now, I think it's that concept of aging, which is saturated in culture as a negative thing because of the fear of death, I think what I fear the most, so there's like a layer in between. I don't know if for me it's the actual death part of aging that's making it scary for me, or if I'm terrified of the cultural perspective, or perspective of aging, which I see as then I can't do all the things I wanna do because culture is gonna see me this certain way if I'm not like a young woman anymore.

Jodi Wellman
Yes, yeah, that's a really good point that that all these things are just sort of like eye opening their ex like their existential earthquakes, even just little tremors, right? Yeah, little tectonic plates. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I loved you go through the death quadrants that how people put death into four different quadrants. And I laughed out loud because you were going through the list.

And then there was one, I'm not laughing at the people who feel this way. But there was one about death as like a sexual experience. And I was like, I don't, okay, that's something new. And then you can't. Okay, to each their own. I know. And then you commented on it. It's just like, that's so interesting. I've never thought about it that way. But

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, the researchers, I do like how they can, some psychologists, they're really cool people that work in death studies, and they have determined that we have these ways of looking at death as either full-on, it's the portal to an afterlife, or death means we're just going to be extinct. It can be that it's a legacy thing, like I get to, it's a ripple effect that I will leave beyond my time, and then the one I love the most, of course, is that death can be seen as a motivator, like, well, because I know it's coming, how can that expiry date, how can that help me not procrastinate and live now before the deadline?

Melanie Avalon
I definitely think it's a motivator for me. And I'm also really fascinated by the legacy one because I think there's something that got, like wires got crossed in my wiring because it completely makes sense that people want children. To me, it makes sense that people would want children to have themselves live on after death.

For me, I'm like, I don't want children because I feel like it, well, a reason is I feel like it would like hasten my journey towards death. Or like cut my life short a little bit. I love children. Just, I don't think I was meant to have them. So I find it really interesting, but I'm like, but do I want like children for legacy? I don't know. I'm really interested by the, do you have children?

Jodi Wellman
No, I was going to say the difference is that I also don't have children, but I know that I don't enjoy them.

Melanie Avalon
part of the reason for it. Wait, I love meeting, I love meeting women who definitively do not want children because I feel like it's, I don't meet a lot of women like that.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's definitely like a minority opinion and like, hey, you go ahead and do it and just don't come near me.

And then, no, I'm kidding. But yeah, I just never had that instinct. I mean, I am one hell of a cat mother just for the record. Yeah, we're deeply devoted to our cat, but that's the extent of the parenting.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. And then maybe one last topic about the debt. And so for listeners, seriously, get this book. You only die once, you will just – there's so much in there we couldn't even remotely touch on.

And a lot of really practical stuff so people can, you know, make change. I say now, but some of the stuff it's like, you know, read this and then we're gonna do this stuff. Oh, there's like a pre-mortem and a post-mortem and we didn't even talk about the calculator to calculate how many Mondays you have left. Oh, yeah, that's juicy math. So many things. The death dates. Do you do the death dates now, still? Or like the cemetery walk, the obituaries?

Jodi Wellman
Oh, those dates. Yes, I thought you meant dates on the calendar. I'll never lose a chance because I need reminders all the time about this and the funny thing for me is that even though I talk about this and write about this and draw, doodle this for a living, I just need constant reminders.

So we drove by cemetery just yesterday and we're kind of reminiscing about the experience there and thinking about it. And all of this stuff I just think is we need consistent reminders because again, we're wired to adapt. So yeah, I've got a giant book of obituaries when I'm feeling particularly bored. I'll flip through it and just look at other people's lives and then think, how do I want to be described? And then it wakes me up. It wakes me up and reminds me to again, get up off my couch or to stop being scared to reach out to so-and-so or to just go for it because again, I've nothing to lose.

I'm like, I'm dying.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, have you been to the catacombs in Paris?

Jodi Wellman
No, and when you signed it, do I need to go? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I think so. Mm hmm. It was really, really, as far as like having a moment of, I mean, momenta mori for sure, because you go down there and it's just, I mean, it's what hundreds of thousands of bodies, like skeletons and skulls and you walk through and it's like, it's like, they have the skulls and like cool little designs and it's mind blowing and but it was crazy to be down there and be like, wow, these were all people at one point. Like, it's just so hard to grasp.

Yeah, momenta mori in time and yeah, it's hard to make it tangible. Yeah, it's so interesting. And then do you so the calculator that you have and friends, there's a calculation in the book where you can calculate how many Mondays you have left, which how does that number make you feel? Does it make you feel like there's more time or less time?

Jodi Wellman
I feel like the life one is still generous, I've got 1,752 Mondays left as of today. The life one seems like, yeah, okay, that's okay.

But then I do two things just to mess with myself. One is that I remind myself of the research around health span. So like a healthy life expectancy, which of course is different than just life expectancy because, you know, research is pretty clear, like the last, so I'm going to say 10 just for the ease of discussion, the last 10 years ain't so, you know, like marathon-y, glow-y, like we're going to slow down, there'll be pain, there'll be, you know. So I'm realizing, hmm, okay, so that my Mondays just got lopped off. The Monday calculator that I am more moved by actually is the one I talk about the years that I really want to be actively working. And I don't envision a full retirement because I just love what I do and I just don't remember I'm going to like stop. But I do have an age that I say that I want to be able to just like really slow it down and just choose special projects, right? When I do the math of that and I calculate 600 and something Mondays, like that feels like no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, like a bus is taking off and I'm running after it. So, so, yeah, like, does the Monday math, what does it make you feel?

Melanie Avalon
it makes me feel, well, given that I've had this fear of aging since I was 12, it makes me feel, yeah, not good. Because it makes me feel like time is ticking. I think I've been so consciously aware of time ticking for so long. And there's nothing you can do about it, except live life more.

You know, so it does make me more, it makes me more grateful for the present moment for sure. Yeah, it is very haunting to me.

Jodi Wellman
Haunting yeah, yeah, but again, you're the haunted house lover. So for you, that's just like it's your sweet spot

Melanie Avalon
It works, wow, yeah, this is so amazing. Were there any other topics you wanted to touch on? I know we touched on a lot. You're just so awesome, I just love what you do.

Jodi Wellman
I know I just want to keep talking with you we should just do like a marathon all-nighter like we just yeah wait so no you covered so much. I say we do the evening wine and chat scenario at some point cuz this we could take this just so many different directions.

Melanie Avalon
So for listeners, True Story, I was spazzily emailing Jodie with an excitement anticipation about this show. And then she offered that we could make it like a wine session as well. And I was like, well, now you know me and my planning this. So I was like, well, I don't normally do video and I don't really day drink.

So we've decided that we're going to do like a night one, evening one with some wine. And maybe we can do some listener Q&A. And yeah, that'd be so fun.

Jodi Wellman
I can't wait. I can't wait.

We'll see where that one goes. Yeah, I like it. I like it. And in the future, we could just grow it and we could start like hosting them live from graveyards. I mean, this could go anywhere. But anyway,

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, okay. So I have to ask were you okay, cuz now you know me and my my fascination since childhood with a little bit morbid Thanks, were you ever like the go to the graveyard type person or you know, I wasn't no you were you used to go Oh, yes, like ghost hunting adventures.

Oh

Jodi Wellman
Oh, so that's that's that's a cool adventure look at you. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, you you're pretty much born cool

Melanie Avalon
Not at all, I just am allured by these things. Apparently, have you seen the viral video of the Tesla in graveyards?

Jodi Wellman
Oh, yes, that they show that. Yeah, that I mean, that can't be real, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. Reading the comments is really interesting, people sharing their experience.

Jodi Wellman
We just wanna be entertained, really, is what I'm sensing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but that adds to our fatality. So

Jodi Wellman
It does. It does. That's right. And it's better than checking email.

Melanie Avalon
So although I get happiness from checking email as well.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, you know what, who am I kidding? That's like my, that's my highlight. It's my dopamine, like little dopamine drips. Dopamine. I know.

Melanie Avalon
know. They say like, it's funny, they say once you wake up, don't, like, don't check your email, you need to like, but I'm like, but that wakes me up. Like, I'm not a morning person.

And I love checking my email. So I love waking up and then checking my email because then I'm awake.

Jodi Wellman
and happy. You know what, I do too. And then sometimes I do the thing where I alarmingly question my happiness, which is like, am I sure this is making me happy? Or am I just, have I brainwashed myself as a workaholic that this actually is joy inducing? And then I just check another email and I'm happy. So it all wins.

But yeah, but I'll just, I'll leave you with that. Again, speaking of haunting, that haunting thought.

Melanie Avalon
I have just something to make you feel a little bit better. I interviewed Dr. Anna Limpke. She wrote a book called Dopamine Nation. And it's all about, I don't know if you've read her book.

Jodi Wellman
I haven't read it, but I know exactly who she is and what the book is, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
she's amazing. And we talked about this very topic, because I was saying, I was like, I just get so much, because she makes the case that, you know, people get on these dopamine treadmills, and it's not good, you know, it's like not a good place to be at.

But I get so much dopamine from like my work, and everything. And she said, you know, it is possible that people could be on these dopamine trips. And it's just, it's just a productive thing. And their life just works. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go with that. Yeah, that is us.

Jodi Wellman
We are the lucky ones and we're going to roll with it.

Melanie Avalon
But yes, how can people get your book, follow your work? I mean, because you've talked about, you know, I know you have your company and you've talked about working with corporate situations.

What's all the deal with you?

Jodi Wellman
the scoop. Thank you for asking. I'm over at 4000Mondays.com, so my stuff's there.

And there is a Monday morning calculator, so no one has to do math themselves. And then I do keynotes and workshops with groups and teams and associations. And so it's really at the, it's really about, you know, getting up there and getting people motivated to take action now. And then we can go deeper in workshops and groups. And that's the fun that I get to have now. So.

Melanie Avalon
that calculator that you gave for yourself about the amount of time where you'll be doing this as much. I'm going to have to adopt that number for me because now I have a goal of having a big company and having you come talk at it.

Done.

Jodi Wellman
Done. Yep. I've already I'm fine. I've already got I've already got it ready. He's customized for you

Melanie Avalon
Done the last question I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day How important our mindset is so what is something that you're grateful for which we didn't even talk about gratitude But that's in the book as well

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, that one's a biggie, yeah. This is of course gonna sound so kind of cliche for me, but it's totally on theme.

I am so grateful that I get to have a healthy relationship with the Grim Reaper. That I get to say, be very leery, but also respectful, because it is the most effective way I've found to live, like I mean it, is to know that he's lurking. I'm grateful for that, ironically.

Melanie Avalon
No, I love that, that's amazing. Well, Jodi, thank you so much. This was everything I was hoping for and more. Are you gonna write another book?

Jodi Wellman
Oh, I don't know yet. The calling hasn't come.

I have a couple of ideas, but it's sort of one of those, you know, you gotta, you gotta feel that divine inspiration. So yeah, I've added, I need to find any, or I need like a near-death experience to like wake me up into a different level or something.

Melanie Avalon
Do you know Raymond Moody? Do you know, oh, personally? Have you met him? No, not personally.

He is one of my favorite humans on the planet, on the planet. Yeah, so for listeners, he popularized, he came up with the idea of near-death experiences, like studying it and everything. You would love him because he's just like the most, oh, it'll give you so much inspiration because I think he's like 86 or seven or nine. He's up there. And you feel like you're talking to like a little kid, like he has so much energy and so tangents. I will send a near-death experience your way. I hope it's not.

Jodi Wellman
Yeah, I mean, be careful with it. I mean, don't go crazy.

Yeah, like an approachable one. Right, like a cool one also. Make it like a good illness or like a good, I don't know, like make me like hot air.

Melanie Avalon
ballooning. You don't even know what happened, like you're just going to wake up in the near-death experience and they'll be done and then you're fine. That's what I wish for you.

Jodi Wellman
Yes, with like clearer skin.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly, yeah. And then when you're out, they do some amazing, I don't know, they make even better. I mean, you're amazing.

Jodi Wellman
Well, they could like, you know, freshen up some of my organs so they, you know, live longer. I could probably.

Melanie Avalon
We should have a, like it should be known, like if there's something you want like plastic surgery wise, like, hey, if I'm ever knocked out, you have permission to do this.

Jodi Wellman
I'm out. Oh my god. This is like the new and improved organ donor card. So it says if I'm not dead yet, while I'm under and you're like helping me not die yet, can you fix my nose? Because I yeah, just do this thing.

Yeah. Oh, yes, we need a plastic surgery card on to something. Yes, might be on to something here. You are. You're amazing. You the plastic surgery association of America right now is like holding you up on the crowd like whoo. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
We should brainstorm, okay.

Jodi Wellman
This is amazing. We'll talk about that at the wine night.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, we will. Well, thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. And I just can't wait to talk again soon. This is amazing. Meet

Jodi Wellman
to. I love this opportunity. You've made this time well spent. Thank you, Blake.

Melanie Avalon
Guys, have a good rest of your day. Bye.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit melanieavalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at melanieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.