The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #357 - Jill Robin Payne

TRANSCRIPT

Jill Robin Payne
So there's positives and negatives to everything. We just need to understand that we are human and we're not gonna like everybody, not everybody's gonna like us. And just because I don't like someone doesn't mean I can't work with them. I can dislike my boss and I still need to know how to get along.

And that is what BMPATHY is about. We need to be dynamic in being watchful. So we need to be on high alert on what is going on and how this is affecting ourselves.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this!

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Oh my goodness, friends, what a fun, enlightening conversation we have today with Jill Robin-Paine. I am so fascinated by her concept of BMPATHY, which yes, is the title of her book that we talk about today, which is the concept of using banter and empathy to truly connect with people and address all of the conflict and division that we experience today.

Also, if after listening, you would like to work with Jill, she is giving my audience 10% off her sessions. For that, just go to her website, JillRobinPaine.com, or you can email her at about JillRobinPaine at Gmail.com, and then just tell her I sent you for 10% off. In today's episode, we talk about so many fascinating topics, things like the problems with quote boundaries and what you should have instead, the true power of language and why you should think more about what you're saying, why you should compliment people, how to better navigate virtual reality, the important concept of dynamic watchfulness, how to protect yourself from anxiety, how to combat cognitive bias, and so much more. The show notes for today's episode will be at melanieavalon.com slash BMPATHY, that is B-E-M-P-A-T-H-Y, so basically empathy with a B in front. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love, and then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post, and again, comment there to enter to win something that I love. Alright, I think that's all the things. As a brief reminder, you can get 10% off Jill's sessions. If you tell her that I sent you, I cannot recommend enough working with her. And now without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Jill Robin Payne. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is a very long time coming. And so the backstory on this conversation, when I first saw the concept of this book by this fabulous author, I was really, really intrigued. I was intrigued for reasons that are different than what we're actually going to talk about, which you will soon understand, which is the title of the book that we will be talking about today is Bempathy, Simplifying Communication by Looking at the Third Side of the Coin.

Melanie Avalon
And so seeing the title and seeing the basic concept of it, I was like, oh, this is about empathy. Like I love empathy. I love empathizing all the empathy all the time. But as you will soon learn or and as you will soon learn, maybe just straight up empathy is not what we should be going for.

So I'm here with Jill Robin Payne. She is a licensed professional counselor supervisor and a licensed chemical dependency counselor. She has a bachelor of science and recreational therapy from Longwood University and a master's degree in clinical counseling psychology with honors from Houston Christian University. She's a member of the American Counseling Association, the Houston alumni chapter of Zeta Tau Alpha and the Texas State Society and many other things as well. And she also has other books. So perhaps we can talk to her in the future about those. Another interesting thing about this book, this is probably the first time I'm thinking through my head. Yes, I think this is the first book I've had on this show that is written for both adults and children and has or I guess I guess maybe it's geared more towards adults actually, but either way uses like illustrations and characters. So kind of written like a kid's book, if that makes sense. So that was super fun. And then on top of that, this book touches on so many things. So why do we have all of this struggle and dissonance today with people and emotional confusion and what are the issues with how virtual reality plays a part in that? How should we actually interact with each other? And again, it's going to come down to this bempathy thing, which is a combination of bantering and empathy, but so many things it talks about. So why do we have all of this confirmation bias today? How should we actually map our world and all of the things in our world? I love what we're going to learn about boundaries and maybe why boundaries aren't actually the answer all the time. So many things here. I have so many questions. Jill, thank you so much for your work and thank you so much for being here.

Jill Robin Payne
Melanie, thank you so much for having me. And ditto on, I have been looking forward to this.

So I just commented to the audience, I'm going to tell you, I mean, tell the audience what I said, that Melanie is not only beautiful on the outside, she's beautiful on the inside. And so I just want everybody to know that I'm already on with you. So I'm not trying to butter you up.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much. You're so, so sweet and so kind.

And now it makes sense, you know, like, I'm like flipping through your book in front of me right now and like looking at the pictures and everything. And yeah, so like, this is a very unique book with like the cartoon characters and stuff. What made you decide to go, to go that route with creating your book?

Jill Robin Payne
I'm so glad. You know, I've been on so many news stations and podcasts. No one has ever asked me that.

Really? Oh, I thought everybody would have asked. I'm going to tell you, I had a dog who I love, my best friend. She is no longer with me. And she is really Bo in the book. Her name was Hershey. And I was walking along saying how I really want a book that people can relate to. And I said, you know, I'm going to age. I'm a pretty okay looking woman. I'm going to age. And so I want someone or the people out there to be able to relate with something, someone that won't age and that they can relate to really well. Well, in our society, humans relate with caricatures that have big eyes and small noses because they're so cute and they remind us of little babies. And so that's how come I created Beacon, Brighton and Bow. And I even told my graphic artist how to do it. He did it first draft. Melanie first draft. He did it. Yes. That's how it came to be because I wanted the world no matter what age you are, because adults and kids. So the book you are correct is for both all ages. And that's how come that's my answer. There you go.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay, so I was thinking maybe these were characters that you had been using like in your practice and stuff, but you made them for the book.

Jill Robin Payne
I made them for the books. Yes, I have two books that have the characters, and I thought about different books, such as Dick and Jane. I know you probably don't know that book, See Dick Run, Spot, Jump Over Fence. Okay, so I thought of that, and that part of the book is where you read the book and then at the back of Dick and Jane books was the explanation for the teachers. So my book does the same thing.

It explains what empathy is, different parts of the story, how come that is using communication, how come that is, what is showing connection there. So that was one of the books and then Muppets. And so I thought of them and he created the Muppets for adults if you look into it. And then he went on Sesame Streets. These are things that I thought of when I wrote my book. And I used all of that and then used, of course, me and put it together and I got Bempathy and told a story about different things that are happening in our world and how Bempathy can help and make it better and get us to connect more instead of disconnect.

Melanie Avalon
I was aware when I was asking the question or commenting that I already exhibited one of the things you talk about, I didn't mean to, but I did, which is that I said I assumed that everybody, I really did assume that that would be the first question that everybody would ask. And I think that just goes to show how we assume everybody holds our perspectives, but people actually have different perspectives.

Jill Robin Payne
And we're doing that a lot more than we need to be, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we think people at least think like us. Are people more likely to think like us or less likely to think like us objectively?

Jill Robin Payne
So that also is a great question because we are complex, yet we're not. So there are in my book, I even say identical twins have different retinas, which is the back of your eye, different fingerprints, different brains. So we are all different. Yet, most of us do not like pain.

You know, there are the SM and SM. What is it say this mass acoustic people? Thank you. Okay. And see, I don't work with them. All the acronyms. There you go. And there also is a small percentage of people that don't feel pain and they die young. There was even a movie done on that called note became. So most of us though, we'll come home from work, we go right to the refrigerator, we'll call a friend. If we're sitting there talking with someone, we're fidgeting because if you stand still, that creates uncomfortability. So we are always avoiding that. And so that's one thing that we do have in common. We want to fit in. We want to be accepted. We want to be heard. That's, that's an issue that we're having on social media because we all want to get those likes. So there's, there's a lot of things that we do have in common. And that's what Bempathy works with. And you build on that with the banter and the chitchat. And then you go into a deeper conversation on maybe some differences so that you can discuss and learn from someone else.

Melanie Avalon
And it's so interesting, like, because like I said, the word, empathy is banter and empathy. And you're mentioning right now, you know, this banter and chit chat. And I guess I never really thought about it with podcasting, but I always, like I just naturally have to at the very beginning. And I guess this is the way it is for a lot of people with conversations. Like you said, like I have to have, you know, meaningless chit chat, not meaningless, but talk about the weather or like something like small.

And it's interesting like how radically that different or how much that changes the interaction between you and the guests. Like if you were to just jump into like the, you know, really intense topics, there wouldn't be a connection there. And all it takes is like a few, you know, not long, like a few minutes of that. Why does that?

Jill Robin Payne
work. I'm going to tell you why it works and then I'm going to talk just real quick. You said meaningless and you're not the only one that says that. I talk to a lot of younger people and that's a waste of my time. I don't want to know that.

I want to get right to the nitty gritty. Well, the bad part of that or the negative, I like to not say bad or good. I like to say negative or positive. If something's adding to your life, do it more. If it's taking away, then do it less. What happens is that this is very important and people don't even know this. If you compliment someone, that is awesome. That is the same as if I gave you a hundred dollars or gave you a piece of chocolate. It's the same region of the brain. With this, what we're talking about this chitchat, Emily Fock, who's a neuroscientist at University of Pennsylvania, did a study just recently in the last year, which I already knew about, and validates that if you chitchat, even with people that don't like you, Melanie, their brain is going to synchronize with you and they're going to start connecting. What do you think of that?

Melanie Avalon
And I feel like I do that too. I don't know. I just naturally, it's rare. And occasionally, sometimes you meet somebody where they're just not having a good day. I'll get a sense that maybe they don't like me or something. I kind of make it my mission to change that.

And chit chat is definitely a way that I go about that. Something I'm aware of though and always wondering about is where is the line between knowing that chit chat and knowing that complimenting somebody is equivalent to giving them $100. Then where is the line? Where does that enter people pleasing or sucking up? When does that become too much?

Jill Robin Payne
That is interesting you said that because I was talking to some people, they said, well, that's manipulation. That's schmoozing. And think about life. In my book, Meeting People, it's not a game. It is not a game.

It is supply and demand. This is what life is about. I don't mean to sound real serious. It's just people need to understand that we as humans are going to judge. In psychology, Melanie says, don't judge. Well, what is analyzing? It's judging. You're making a judge and we label. So there's positives and negatives to everything. We just need to understand that we are human and we're not going to like everybody. Not everybody's going to like us. And just because I don't like someone doesn't mean I can't work with them. I still need to know how to get along. And that is what empathy is about. It's about showing you it's banter plus empathy with a win-win mindset. So you and I came on this segment today with we wanted this to win. We wanted both of us to get something out of this, correct? And so therefore it changes our attitude. It changes our behavior. And that in itself, I think will help people's mind open up a little bit and be a little bit more flexible.

Melanie Avalon
It reminds me, I don't know if you know, Dr. Loretta Bruning, she has a lot of really incredible books, and one of them is called Status Games. And it's all about how, you know, you're just talking about how we judge the word judgment, ironically enough, but it's really in a way just analyzing. And so she talks about how like status, like, we all seek status, like evolutionarily, and that's not a bad thing, like we just do. So her thesis is like, this is what we do. So just don't don't use it to like hurt people or put other people down, but it's okay to like, one want status.

So with okay, so if you take away the banter, and you just go for empathy, what does that look like? Can that work? And if it doesn't work, why not?

Jill Robin Payne
So empathy does work, and we were talking a little bit before the segment, I wanted to explain how come it's necessary to do a little bit of banter. And banter can even be in a text form. It can be banter, it doesn't need to be verbal. So when you empathize, if I'm empathizing with you, I'm going to see your point. I'm going to feel it. We're going to connect. And then we may have another group that thinks the total opposite of us. And so being with you, you are going to just by us agreeing, we're going to have some confirmation bias. You've just confirmed Jill Payne's right. And so is Melanie. So that's going to happen. And then we're going to get what is called all or nothing or black and white thinking. So this is a progression. So then we're going to be less flexible. I'm right, you're wrong. Gosh, Melanie, we're right. What is that? What is Joe and Chris over there talking about? They don't know what they're talking about. We're right. And then it will divide. And then we'll have an in-group and an out-group. It's going to be them against us. And so this doesn't happen all the time. If you do have empathy, and that's all you have, that can happen. And that's what's happening.

You're seeing it. Matter of fact, empathy is on the rise. It's cyclical. So it was going down during COVID. Now it's come back up. And so that's really not the issue. The issue is that we need to learn how to connect on a, I don't like to say superficial level. Just we just need to, like, you know what? I had some clients the other day and they were disconnected. So I'm having, and it's not just them, a couple of my clients, having them just lie in bed together, touching, not cuddling, not doing it, just touching one arm, touching another while they're doing whatever they're doing. That's connecting people. Do you see what I'm saying? But we can't touch everybody. So that's where banter comes in.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Is it kind of like in animals? Is it like when animals first meet and they kind of like sniff each other out and kind of have that like moment at the beginning?

Jill Robin Payne
And think about it, and the monkeys pick each other. They pick things off.

So yeah, so we've seen in the animal species, too. You've got to have some type of connection. If you're empathizing, you're going to be empathizing with the party that you're with at that time. And so it'll depend. Think about it. It'll depend what you're empathizing with them with, okay? And so that's what's happening with the Republicans and the Democrats and why people are wanting independence and then people will empathize with the independents when many years ago there was less of a divide if you look at history. But it wanes. It goes, you know, everything seems to be cyclical if you look at history.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I definitely I mean, you were mentioning I hadn't thought about how the empathy would go in cycles, but I'm just thinking now in my back my body and I feel it. I feel the I feel the lack of empathy that happened during the pandemic.

Oh my gosh. Oh, don't even go there. Oh, wow. Intense. So moment of gratitude that it's not that that bad anymore. That was yeah, that was crazy.

Jill Robin Payne
And you know what is funny? That no one talks about this. And it is out there. And maybe I'll be the first to really talk about it because they talked about it right after, right after COVID subsided. It's collective trauma. And think about it, collective trauma is trauma to a group of people. Okay, it's, it's shared trauma. That's all it is.

And World War Two, we have people that are still living from World War Two, Hurricane Katrina, 9-11. I just went up to New York. Oh, you've got to go to the memorial. Anybody out there that has not seen that memorial of 9-11 and NYC, I just highly recommend that.

I really do. It was, it was to me like going to Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. Anyway, and then we have COVID. It's something that's happened. We need to acknowledge it.

And we were going fast with technology. And I'm talking digital technology. I'm talking electronics. We were working to, we had cell phones, right? And, and we were starting to text and doing all these things. Well, it exacerbated that. It put us, it threw us like a into the virtual world because that's how we could connect. So it caused a disconnection, yet a connection, sort of a conundrum. What do you think of that?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and to that point, that's one of the things you talk about in the book is, you know, the issues with virtual reality and how we need to have this this concept of dynamic watchfulness. So what is what is that?

How do we implement that?

Jill Robin Payne
So let's first talk about mindfulness because I know therapists, oh, mindfulness, mindfulness. Well, you know what?

Everyone can look it up there and they're still, they're still doing research on what virtual reality is and what it does to the brain. And, you know, when I, I don't know if you had any of these people come to your, where are you located?

Melanie Avalon
in Atlanta. Oh yeah, I didn't even ask you that. That's normally the first question I banter and ask at the beginning. Where are you based?

Jill Robin Payne
Houston, Texas. So we had this was a couple of years ago, Melanie, I like to experience things that the younger people experience because I want to be empathetic. And when I say empathetic, I mean, cognitively, I want to really understand what they're going through, even if it's with my mindset. So there was some type of building that they had virtual reality and it was the space center, you would go in it and you paid money and you put these goggles on and you were in the space center up in the up in the sky. And it was real.

And the feeling you get is it was very sort of calming. And let me tell you how calm because you use less of your brain when you're in virtual reality. If I am picking up a pen in reality, my whole brain lights up. If I pick up a pen in virtual reality, it my mind thinks it's real, just as real as if it were in reality. Yet I'm only using one section of my brain. Oh, wow. I'm not a neuroscientist. So they neuroscientists will tell you exactly what is not being used as much. I think some is spatial. And cognitive. And so therefore, if you don't use it, you'll lose it. And so I'm going to do things that are fun and easy and virtual reality. It was fun and it was easy and it was it felt real. So we just need to be cognizant of what is virtual reality and what is not.

And so that's how I came up with dynamic watchfulness. Because mindfulness, I can be mindful of me. You know what mindful is, right? You know, just to be aware of my senses, aware of what I'm saying, what the other person is saying. And so dynamic watchfulness. And I have it. I have it in my book. And it's basically you want to be in a state of being active and present in multiple worlds.

And the only way you can really do that is by having someone else in your world to sort of validate. And so that's how come I came up with this. So it's a lot. But empathy pretty much is doing dynamic watchfulness because I have things that I have. I think a chapter about talking to yourself. You need to connect with yourself. Action creates reaction. You need to be cognizant of what's going around you and how much power you have over altering it.

Melanie Avalon
is this just in situations of like a completely virtual world or how does it apply to like social media where you have this? I think about this a lot like on Instagram for example.

I'm fascinated by the concept of it like if you really think about it like so again like Instagram like you have a profile that's static and pictures of you and words and it's a virtual avatar in a way of you so like when people see it they feel like they're interacting with you when it's actually like a static scrapbook memory post page with words and pictures but it functions it functions as an in-real-time avatar because people will go look at you know somebody's page and be like oh this is that person but it's it's not that person it's like a collection of that person is put out to represent them so does this apply to that as well like how do you have dynamic watchfulness in that situation?

Jill Robin Payne
So you're talking about anthropomorphic. We do things like that. For instance, we like to make sense of things. So the moon, of course, my brother told me this scared him. We usually say the man in the moon because it gets us to connect. We want to connect. That's something that we have in common.

So that is another reason why I developed this dynamic watchfulness, or came up with it, because we need to be dynamic in being watchful. So we need to be on high alert on what is going on and how this is affecting ourselves. As a matter of fact, in my book, I'm not even going to look at it. In my book, there's a page or two pages, I think, if you read it, saying questions that you need to ask yourself. And some of them were, okay, I'm on the internet. How is the internet feeling today? Would you know that there's emotional contagion from social media? And yes, it doesn't have a feeling. We get a feeling from what is going on on the internet. Well, how is that affecting us? Is that affecting us? How fast are we talking on the internet? What words are we using on the internet? Are we using that in the real world? Is that working for us? What speed are we going? So this is, and it's in my book, I think I have two pages, I'm not sure, about questions that we need to start asking ourselves.

So it's more than being mindful. It's being watchful and being on high alert on what's going on. For instance, I think Elon Musk just stopped two of his cars that he was making, and he's going to be making robots. Well, we need to be aware of that.

The robots, they're here, by the way. I was just talking to the person that I was on the podcast yesterday. She didn't know about this, but in 2015, you may know this, Sophia became a, she's a robot in Saudi Arabia, and she became a citizen. That was in 2015, people need to look her up. And then there's, I think it's Harmony. I'm pretty sure it's Harmony. And she's a sex robot. And so now, oh my gosh, she's beautiful. She has no cellulite. She's, I mean, and she has an accent. Oh my gosh, I was falling in love with her and I'm not gay. Really? And so, and so now the robot body is going to go with her that move. So these are things we need to think about.

And we need to think about, I'm being dynamically watchful right now. We need to think about, okay, well, our computers, we have a little viewer in our computer. My new computer has a little slide that you're supposed to slide over because quote unquote, you don't know who's looking at you. And I know that for a fact, because my computer that's brand new this year has a little slide to block it. So who's running the computers, who's running the robots, we just need to be mindful of it. And so that is dynamic watchful, being very watchful.

Melanie Avalon
I think I definitely, I'm like thinking of myself because there's a whole other layer to it because I have seen videos online of robots today and half the time or maybe all the time, I actually, at least at the beginning, don't know if it's actually a real video of robots or like a robot video of robots, you know, like it's ironic because it'll be a video about AI and like AI manifested physically and I don't know if it's an AI video or not.

Jill Robin Payne
Yeah, and it's true. It's getting harder because, like I said, I work with young kids, and you can still sort of tell, not just because it'll say AI, I think, like, if you have a cup that has writing on it, I think sometimes it doesn't grasp that. Other than that, it's very hard to tell if it's AI or not, because think about it.

I'm on TikTok, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on all the platforms, I think, except for Instagram. And people have filters, and they look so beautiful. You don't know if they're real. They are real, they just have filters. So that in itself makes it, is it you with a filter, or is it AI?

Melanie Avalon
I know. It's so true. And especially, how do you feel about talking? So do you use chat GPT or anything like that? Oh, of course, yes.

Jill Robin Payne
It's a tool we just need to understand that we are in control of it let's not let it control us.

Melanie Avalon
How do you feel about, so I found it actually, well, besides the fact that I get in arguments with it a lot cause I can't handle it, gaslighting me or hallucinating, although it's getting better about that. I do find it actually very helpful for navigating interpersonal relationship situations.

Like it, if nothing else, even though I think it does more than this, but if nothing else, it requires you to pause. Like I've noticed, so my mom will use it. Chat TPT. Yeah, well, cause like my mom, for example, like my mom, I know she uses it a lot to deal with some issues she's been having with a person in her life. And like in the past, I think she would have, cause she's told me that this has happened. That's why I can talk about it. So she's told in the past, I think she would have like reacted immediately to what the person was saying, but now she has to like copy it, tell it to chat TPT, chat TPT like walks her through it. And then she answers. So if nothing else, it puts the pause in between like the answer and response.

Jill Robin Payne
Yeah, I think that we need to use our electronics cautiously because we need to think about who and I'm pro all this just like I told you I use chat of course I tell chat what to do who are the parents of a generative now there's a difference everybody out there needs to understand the difference between AI and generative AI AI does a certain activity and that's what it does okay if it's supposed to answer the phone and say hi you need to go to A&M today or the University of Texas this route okay that is AI then you have generative AI that is constantly learning who is generative AI's parents well the internet we are their parent okay so it's not just us it's also the internet the internet is people from all over the world for has bias prejudices different socio-economic just many many different individuals that are in the history they they take history past history like World War Two Hitler blah blah blah and they put it all together and they do it with a bias believe it or not chat LGBT is gonna have a bias and so we just need to be cognizant of all this stuff it's very complex so we just need to use it as a tool and realize that's why I say we need to have an accomplice someone else that can give us a different view maybe even two accomplices it could be a lawyer or a doctor a mother a child a friend an enemy someone to give you a different view the third side of the coin

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I I agree so much and I think it's very subtle. I was thinking I was thinking just about that the other day though the bias because I asked it a question I think for I don't remember what it was I might have been for my other podcast but I was asking for like suggestions on how to it was something about recipes but it automatically made the assumption of using almond milk like it didn't even mention like normal milk and I was like that's just because it's like in the vibe today to use almond milk like why didn't it mention normal milk like it actually really bother me because like I was like it's like subtle little things like that where I can tell that that there's a bias there.

I'm also like personally pretty haunted by okay, I'm haunted by how do I know what I know? How do I not be biased because I I don't know. I don't know how it's even possible to be objective in anything like and you do give a list of tips in your book to how to prevent confirmation bias. So things like don't try to prove yourself don't try to prove that you're right so that that makes sense cognitively empathize discuss don't attack repeat in their words what the person said so you you're hearing it from their perspective but I'm just can we like can we even be objective ever? I don't know how that's even possible.

Jill Robin Payne
So, so we can be objective and we have, we're going to have a bias. And that was another thing that during COVID, oh, we need to get rid of our bias. Well, bias is a good thing. I'm going to eat a hot dog instead of a piece of caca. I'm biased towards a hot dog because it might not be very healthy. It's healthier than, than if I eat a feces and I don't mean to be gross. So we need to have the bias. People that say they don't have a bias. That is called blind spot bias because we need to acknowledge that we do have a bias. And that's okay.

I mean, my clients know that. And I, it's, it's helpful to know what your biases are. That's where you go. And then you can be objective. Do you see what I'm saying? You can say, well, gosh, I sway this way. And then you may want to get someone else that sways a different way. And then you go in the middle. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
I think what it relates to and the reason it bothers me so much is I was raised very religious and with this concept of analyzing the concept of absolute truth. And so I've always struggled with this issue of, but how do I know what's absolute truth because I have a bias?

So for me, it relates to what is the… and it relates to the virtual reality stuff. I'm like, how do I… I can never actually know what the actual state of reality is. I can't. I interviewed Riz Verk, he wrote The Simulation Hypothesis. I mean, you read that book and you're like, okay, maybe nothing's real.

Jill Robin Payne
Well, okay, there you go. I was going to validate that. So life is perception, perception is life, and I can look outside today, and it is beautiful and sunny. Somebody else's perception goes, oh my gosh, that sun is getting in my eyes, it's the worst day of my life. Who's right?

So that, if we're going to get philosophical, that's the way to look at things. To me, I like to look at what is working, what is not working, and I think Dr. Phil stole that from me. I always say to my friends or my clients, well, is it working for you? We all want to have a joyous life, not a happy life, because you can't be happy all the time, and that'd be boring, wouldn't it? So if you're going to get philosophical, I'm going to go with her. Perception is life, life is perception. There you go.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. And I actually I think about that all the time because like the weather example because it's been we've had recently this ice storm here and you know, it's been really cold and most people don't like the cold, I love the cold and and you mentioned the sun, I get really sad when like spring is coming.

I'm like, no. And so I'll think about how like, wow, you know, so in technically in theory, since with every experience, you'll find somebody who hates it and somebody who loves it. So in theory, you could technically love everything, if everything could be loved.

Jill Robin Payne
I don't know. I think it's wonderful that we all have different views because if everybody liked the heat then they'd all come live in Houston and then I wouldn't be able to get a house. I wouldn't be able to fit. So I'm content and joyous and happy that we all have different views.

What Bempathy really is about is to find some commonality and to work with it and to realize that I might not like that person. That person might drive me crazy. That person is a human. They bleed red. I just need to be respectful of the human race. That's pretty much it.

And I think we just need to do more of that. And it just takes a little bit of dynamic watchfulness and realizing I'm loving, I love everything that you're, I'm enjoying your talk. And I agree with the things that you say and I'm hoping people are listening today so that maybe they can be a little bit more flexible.

And the, you know, it's like, what is it? If I have something rigid, like a pencil versus a rubber band, a pencil is easier to break. I just break it in two. Where's a rubber band? I can, you know, move it and I'd have to pull real hard to break it.

Melanie Avalon
Are there any exceptions? I know you mentioned like the pain exceptions, but are there exceptions for like psychopath sociopath?

Jill Robin Payne
I haven't met one. I haven't met a psychopath.

I'm I'm not that I know of so I'm happy and that I haven't I think I think things like that are a few and far between and There's always I shouldn't you're not supposed to say in psychology always and never that's black-and-white thinking perfect example everybody out there I think that there are exceptions to rules and So like they had all over the internet. This was about two years ago Narcissistic my parents are narcissistic. My friends are narcissist.

I was like, whoa, not everybody is it's very rare and matter of fact the only reason we as a psychologist or Psychotherapist psychiatrist have the DSM-5 is so we can get a diagnoses so that we have it so we can treat someone and so when I see all these people diagnosing and Labeling people and I just think we just need to be aware aware of that. We're labeling and what it's going to cause It's gonna it's going to create a lot of division

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, on the one hand, I think the labels can be great because they help with treatment and helping people find solutions. And then on the other hand, I do think the overwhelm of labels makes, it creates concepts that people might create for themselves now that there's a language terminology for it where maybe it wasn't actually there to that extent before.

Jill Robin Payne
Exactly. I mean, I can give you an example. When you're in college, I would have people I said, well, how's that professor? Oh, they're a butt head. Well, that's labeling.

So I go in there right away. I've just been biased towards Oh, my gosh, they're a butt head. So I'm going to be looking for the butt headness. And of course, that's not a word. So you see, so labeling gets us to focus and it changes our attitude and behavior. It can be just as positive. There's the halo effect. Oh, that person is the best in the world. Therefore, I'm going to think that person is the best in the world, most likely. It's called the halo effect. So we just need to be aware of this and proceed. And now we need to be more aware because we're bombarded too much. Do you know the news never goes off? It's 24 seven.

Melanie Avalon
so true it's so true oh my goodness it's always on

Jill Robin Payne
It's always on, but we're not always on. And then you have FOMO, the three.

Melanie Avalon
They're missing out.

Jill Robin Payne
So that is not, okay, they're talking most likely personalities because my husband, and he's my second one and I'm so glad that I read my book and that's how I found him, and he is so opposite of me, our morals and values are very similar. So when we say opposites attract, they're more likely thinking of personalities. So therefore, that is true. So it's how you take it.

Usually, you want to have as much commonality as you can when you're with someone. But, no buts, because I say sit on buts, B-U-T-T. When I say but, I take away what I just said. If I say you're beautiful but, then I just took it away. I am so aware of the word but. Yeah. Anyway, so getting back to opposites attract, yeah, there's a lot of times where you have someone that has a lot of energy and you don't have a lot of energy or there's someone that is a type A personality and you're type B. So those things, type of situations work very well.

Melanie Avalon
It's so funny, when I first meet somebody new, inevitably, early in the conversation, I will, because like with the word butt, I really, really don't like using that word. And so I will be like writing a text message and spend so much time trying to figure out how to not use the word butt in the text message. And then sometimes it'll still be a little bit of an awkward text.

So then I'll get, I'll have to give a follow up and be like, by the way, I try to never use word butt. So if I ever awkwardly use the word and, it's because I'm trying not to use the word butt. So disclaimer.

Jill Robin Payne
And is great. Just keep using and or just make it end of a sentence.

Melanie Avalon
Mm, okay. Oh, that's gonna be helpful. Thank you.

Oh my goodness. That's so funny. Okay. We're talking about, you know, liking different things like, you know, the sunlight and not. So you have this exercise in bempathy called the map of reflection and you, you know, go through all the people, places, things in your life and you map them out. And something really interesting about it, which I really liked, which is contrary to what people will often say is you say, yes, you are the center of your world. So is that okay to be the center of our world? And how do we do this, this exercise?

Jill Robin Payne
Right. So and I and I think I italicize that you are the center of your world, not the center of the world. And when we it's the same as I want to be perfect. We cannot be perfect. No one is perfect. And if we put that pressure on us along with being the center of quote, the world, then we're not going to be very happy people.

And another thing about that is that when I was getting my master's Melanie, I was taught that we only have control over us. Well, I disagree. And that's where my bempathy comes in and the map of reflection comes in. If you know any of Newton's law. Well, matter of fact, Melanie, this is just too funny. I was sitting and talking to somebody about action creates reaction. And I said, so your action, this is what I'm going to talk about. Your action will control somebody else's reaction and say, Oh, that's Newton's law. And I was like, Oh, you're kidding me. I thought that was mine. So darn it. Newton thought of it before me. So that really has to do with you are the center of your world. And it's very important for you to know that so that when you look at your house and it's a mess, you need to step back and look at yourself. Isn't that that just was horrid to say that. So I don't want, I want everybody to, to appreciate what I said.

Melanie Avalon
So the map of reflection with you as a center of your world, what do you do with these people, places, things? And I'll go ahead and ask the second part because I was so fascinated by this because people love the word boundaries. They love, love, love it.

And you mentioned something during this about how just having these, and I'm paraphrasing, but from memory, it was something about how having these hard boundaries, that's rigid. That's not what we're going for here.

Jill Robin Payne
Right. So what I use, and boundaries are limits, right? And not in this book, but in my meeting people, it's not a game. I love to use cars, staying in the same lane, going certain speed limits, things like that. We all have limits.

And so I think it's better to focus on that than boundaries because it gets really... We'll still use the word boundaries. I don't do it really anymore. I use more, what are your limits? How fast is that person going? That's sort of the terminology that I use. I think people can relate with that more than, okay, what's his boundary? What? What? You know what I'm saying? You can't see it. If you can't see it, it sort of just doesn't make sense. Limits, people know, speed limits, right? They can relate with that. We have them every day when I get in my car, I want to go 100.

Melanie Avalon
I love the concept of what boundaries is trying to accomplish, and I do use them in my life in the way I think they're supposed to be used, which is, I think they're about you, not the other person. And what I mean by that is, what will you engage in or not engage in so that you can show up as your best version of yourself to other people?

And I think a lot of times people make them all about other people. So it's like they put boundaries on, they're trying to control other people with these boundaries rather than using them to just know what they energetically would like to engage in or not. So I feel like they often become, yeah, they become about other people. I've seen people cut other people out of their lives or do actions that can be very abrasive to other people, where I don't know that throwing abrasiveness on other people is the purpose of boundaries.

Jill Robin Payne
Right. Boundaries can be very complex, and so that's how come I refrain from using it. I haven't used boundaries.

Wow. I'm trying to think because I don't think I've used that word. I haven't used that word in years. Not just because of my map of reflection or because of my empathy. It's just not, I just haven't used it. I am more of giving analogies and stories, and I even say, because people can relate better with that. Even if you're going to go in the Bible, I think Jesus used analogies, and I'm not religious. I'm spiritual. I'm just saying that people relate more with that. If I tell people, well, that person has a non-permeable boundary, what? What that mean? Okay. If I describe you driving a car going 60 miles an hour versus going 200 miles an hour, looking out your window, which mileage an hour would get you to see clearer? Well, of course, slowing down. That gets you to slow down. If I'm slowing down, I'm not going to bump into people. Do you see what I'm saying? That goes also with the dynamic watchfulness. We need to be aware of us, and that's how come I think I have in the book about talking to yourself, which is not a new phenomenon. I don't know about you. I talk to myself all the time. We need to know ourselves and connect with ourselves first, and then we can connect more with our world and others. If I know and I realize, oh, wow, I want to be appreciated, well, the definition may be different towards me. I still am aware of appreciation, the word, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. And to that point about how you like to use... Was that sort of deep? No, I love this. I love this. I know. You're speaking my language. I love this. No pun intended.

So, you're mentioning how you like stories and analogies and things like that. So, I mean, it's ironic that we haven't talked about it really yet. And in the beginning, I mentioned that we talked about how there's these cartoon characters and you have Beacon the leader, Brighton, who's enlightened, the enlightened follower, and Bo, the compromising, compromise or dog. So, what is this? What are you trying to teach or communicate to people here with these three characters?

Jill Robin Payne
Can I tell you a story about that? Please do. OK, so people, when people see things, they think, oh, someone just came up with it like that. So I had bempathy. And like I said at the beginning of our conversation, I wanted to get it out there. And I felt people would relate better to characters. So when I thought of my characters, people like things to sort of rhyme or flow. When things flow, it just makes things easier.

Relationships flow. It doesn't mean that they don't have conflict. It just means that things flow. If you have conflict, you discuss, and it moves on, and you go to a higher level. So my characters, I wanted them to sort of rhyme. And so I said, well, empathy has B in front of it. And the reason it has B in front of it is because of banter. That's why I put B in front of empathy. It's banter plus empathy. So I said, what characters, what names would be good with a B and say what I want them to say? And so beacon is a beacon of light. And if you look at him, Melanie, he's shaped like a lighthouse. What does a lighthouse do? A lighthouse enlightens. It guides you. It sends you in the correct direction so that you can live and you don't crash. Speaking of boundaries, you see, no boundaries there. Just it's enlightening you, showing you another path, right? Okay, so that's beacon.

Then I said, okay, what could the other character be because I want someone that is a follower? Well, I'll put starry eyes on her and she'll be enlightened. And so she is enlightened, therefore a follower doesn't mean you just sort of, you know, like a dog just follows you. A dog is going to follow you. He's still going to think about, okay, is that a good, I sniffed that position. Is that really safe to go that way? So a follower doesn't follow blindly. They're enlightened and they can see the third side of the coin. See what I'm saying?

And then of course you have little bow. Little bow came up in my head probably six months later. I was just going to have beacon and brighten. And then I was walking my dog and everybody loved my dog. My dog knew everybody. Matter of fact, Hershey is no longer here. When Hershey was alive, my neighbors, Melanie, would come up to me because they didn't come up to me. They came up to my dog. And my dog, can I tell you one more story? Please, yes. Okay, okay. I hope I'm answering your question. So the day my dog died, she died of blood cancer. I didn't know that she had that. I knew she was sick. The day she died, I took her for a walk or she took me for a walk. And we're walking. And I go, Hershey, come on, she wouldn't move. I see this car coming up and it's circled and it parked in front of a house and she wouldn't move. The people get out. She walks over to the people. One of them was a jogger that jogs by us. I didn't know them, my dog did. My dog went to greet them. So that is what got me to write bow that helps tie everything together. Really is Hershey who loved everybody, saw beauty in everyone. And that's what a compromiser sees the good or the commonality might not be very good, the commonality to bring people together. So that's how I came up with that.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay. So when you were originally coming up with it with Beacon, the leader, Brighton, the enlightened follower, was that the paradigm you were seeing for humans and then you had the epiphany about humans with your dog, Hershey?

Jill Robin Payne
Yes, it was all about that. So I'm always, yeah, I have been working with relationships my whole life. I adore people, I really do. And it comes through, I really do like people. There's gonna be some people that drive me crazy. I drive some people crazy. I mean, that's just how it is. I still really like people.

So I'm always thinking about people. And I see things that way. I have a quote in one of my books, everything is relational. So I wanted to get figures, cartoon characters that could help people relate. So there are three characters which I thought, wow, they describe the three personalities of the world. Someone's gonna relate to either one of them or all of them. I mean, I myself am a leader, a follower and a compromiser. So that the whole aspect of those were so that people like you, people of all ages could relate with them. Therefore, if I relate with you, I'm gonna listen to you better. And so that's how they came to be and how come I did it.

Melanie Avalon
so that people can connect. The three types, because you just mentioned one, two, three, all of them.

So are most people all of them? Are most people primarily one? Because, yeah, where do most people fall?

Jill Robin Payne
I think we all are one of them at a time or another. I think that we might tend to be more of one. I'm more of a leader. I still compromise, and I will follow. If you have a really great idea, and I'm liking it, and I'm agreeing with it, I'm going to go with it. And then think of ourselves.

We all lead our own life, don't we? OK. I mean, no one's telling us to go to bed. We're adults. So you are a leader. And that brings me to even the word success. People, I'm not a success. Well, wow. You are living. You got up this morning. You brushed your teeth. You said hi to somebody. You were very successful at that. Therefore, you were a success. So it's how we look at things. And that's why I have these characters so you can relate with them. One of the stories, Brighton's upset, and feeling lost, and no one to talk to. And then Beacon is, he's a social person, and loves people, and just talks to everybody freely. And then there's Bo that just wagging his tail, and going different ways that might be a brighter way. And so people will relate to one of those characters. A lot of people like my Bo for some reason. They like little Bo.

Melanie Avalon
is the bow is that kind of like the go with the flow person

Jill Robin Payne
Yeah, Beau is the Compromiser, and so I have Beau with a pink bow, because I like pink, and if you think about it, it's helping tie everything together and help things make sense. And so we like to make sense of things, and that's how come we have FOMO.

We want to know what's going on, you know, why? What do little kids say when they're little? They're too, why? Oh, my lord, my 34-year-old, that's all he would say. He was two years old, he'd say why, I was like, oh, okay. He knew a lot after that year. Anyway, so yes, so that's how come I have those characters, and I think that it makes things easier, too, if you think about it. Not so serious. We make things too serious, and I mean, you know, I know death is serious, if we're serious all the time, it doesn't, it's very stressful.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Yes. And actually, actually to that point, so you have six C's in the book. Communication, commonality, connectedness, comfortability, control, and commitment.

And my question here, talking about things being serious, is energetically, so like when I read those words or say those words, five out of six of them feel very positive to me. One feels a little negative, and it's probably me because I tend to overdo this, and that's the control word, the word control. So my questions here were, is that my bias perspective, adding that negative layer to the word control? Like, what is healthy control?

Jill Robin Payne
May I ask, what do you think of when you hear that word?

Melanie Avalon
I think, ironically enough, I feel two completely different or opposing thoughts. One is that how much I really appreciate the concept of control. Like I like keeping things in order, I like having my schedule, I like being in control in my life. That's positive to me.

And then I think of what people, not now because I think I've evolved a lot, but when I was little and growing up, maybe people would negatively say I'm like a control freak. So I feel a negative perspective.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, someone called you a control freak? I mean, I don't have a memory of specific memory, but I have the word control freak floating around in my head. So I'm assuming, I'm assuming it was told to me at some point, but I probably my mom was like, don't be a control freak or something, you know, like,

Jill Robin Payne
Okay, so just FYI, there's something called reframing. We could go into that later on, and I could get you to reframe it. And that would also help how you perceive control. Now, think of this, too much of anything is not healthy. Too much food, even too much sex, too much lifting weights, too much of anything, too much water can kill you. So too much of anything is not healthy.

So that's my answer to the control. I'm going to go through just real quick of how to use the six C's. And then, of course, my books go more into detail. I'm going to just give you of how it goes. And you don't need, even in the book, it says to use all of them. If you use two, that's going to help you connect. Okay. And I do say that in the book. I myself only because that I created it, Melody. I like to use all of them. Communication, we're not going to go into that because I can do a whole book on communication. Communicate my clothes talk, my face talks, my body talks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So this is how it goes. You want to communicate commonality. So when you communicate commonality to the person or people you're talking with, that's going to create connectiveness. And once people feel connected, they feel more comfortable in the situation. And once people feel more comfortable, they feel more in control. And when they feel more in control, they feel more apt to commit to continuing the conversation or continuing the relationship and so forth. Doesn't mean that it's perfect because remember, nothing's perfect. So that's sort of how it flows. And then you go, we go into detail. We describe what commonality is connectedness and all that stuff. So does that make sense now?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yeah, definitely.

Jill Robin Payne
It's how we use, and you know what? I love that you even brought up that word because words are so important, and I talk about that.

You can use a word such as hate versus dislike, and they have such power, and we need to watch our words because they have different definitions yet the same. Hate is more powerful. I was always told in my family and my son, I was a single mom, we didn't use shut up or hate. Those were two words.

Melanie Avalon
of them. Yeah, we were not either. Hate was not allowed.

Jill Robin Payne
Yeah, it was not and my mom always taught me that I refrain from using those words because they are so powerful and so passionate and and they create a feeling and create a thought and create a behavior so we need to watch that.

Melanie Avalon
One of the other books I'm reading literally right now is all about, well, it's about different, she categorizes people into different brain states, but it's all about control. So that word is very much in my mind right now, thinking about what it means and everything.

So now I understand.

Jill Robin Payne
and what it means to you because remember that we take our belief system and our history of our life and that helps mold the definitions of our world and and words and so i even was in the car with my husband one day and i said i know there's a book out there five five love languages okay it's a you know it's not the only book i ever recommend besides mine is men are from ours women are from venus

Melanie Avalon
I've had John on the show a few times, strong gray.

Jill Robin Payne
Oh, well, you went to school with my hubby. Oh, my goodness. Yes, in Houston. Lamar, Lamar High School. Yes. Yes. Small world.

There you go. OK, so I love his book because it's real. It's truthful. I'll have clients get mad at me when I say, oh, well, he's a man. She's a woman. And then finally, generative A.I. They did a research with generative A.I. This is probably about a year ago, Melanie. And it finally said, OK, our brains are the same. They work differently. Like we didn't know that. So now how did I get off on that? Oh, we got on words. But how did I get off?

Melanie Avalon
I'll find that. John Gray, metaphor of words. Oh, well, we're talking about like hate and like what, oh, I had a question about it, but I don't know where you were going with it. Actually, not really a question, but it's more common.

I was just thinking about this right now about how the different words, you know, what they mean to you, it's actually, it is an accomplishment that with language we communicate at all, because I'm just thinking now about how when I use my words to somebody else, I'm using them from the perspective of what they mean to me and they might mean something else to that person. So it's a wonder that we, but again, maybe that's another reason that the banter part is so helpful because it's connecting on this more relatable level where it's not so much about the esoteric meaning of all these words as much as just like connecting in the moment on something.

Jill Robin Payne
And we do need to know the definition, and I'm going to tell you where I was going with that. That's why the word love. So I thought of my husband, then, okay, isn't that funny? You think of a word, then it gets you to think of someone else. So if I think of beautiful, I'll think of you. There you go.

So love, I asked him, I said, what is your definition of love? And he goes, wow, that's, and he's a therapist also, he says, why that's a good question, because everybody's definition of love is different. And that's a good question to ask to a friend or to a love, and see what you get, because it's not the five love languages, he just did that and made some money on it, and it was good. I mean, it's a good concept, and I'm not, it's good. It's just love is different to everyone.

Melanie Avalon
Honestly, were I to be asked what is the greatest travesty of the English language, I think I would say that we just have this one word for love compared to Greek where they have arrows and all the different types of love. This concept that is so important and so universal and affects so many things, we have one word for it.

Jill Robin Payne
I've got goosebumps with you saying that because it is so true. It's something to think about.

Melanie Avalon
English language fail right there. Oh man, that's so funny.

Speaking of, I thought about this because it's a bridge with the word control, but you have a very practical, actionable exercise in the book that I really liked. And it was about when people are experiencing anxiety and it was the protective bubble exercise. But basically part of it was you sit, you stop and you think about what you actually can control in the situation. What was this exercise about anxiety and then like imagining a protective bubble.

Jill Robin Payne
Well, let me ask you, I'm going to put it back at you because that's wonderful. What did you like about it?

Melanie Avalon
probably the control part. Because I think it's so true about like rumination and anxiety. You know, you're trying to like fix or solve something that you're worried about. And so just pausing and thinking, what can you actually do here? It actually massively limits what you should or what you could be even thinking about.

Because there's only like so many limited things you can actually do. So I think like the practicality, like bringing that nebulous feeling of anxiety into something very practical. And then the imagining the protective bubble part. Because I think when people or at least for me, like when I first read that, I was like, you know, what can that really do? And then I thought about it was like, oh, that actually, you can, you can feel that if you like imagine like a protective bubble around yourself. So that's what really resonated with me.

Jill Robin Payne
Well, you answered it, and I don't know if you remember this, and maybe because I know I'm older than you, but when I was little, if someone said something to us, we'd say, I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you. Oh, wow. That's a great phrase.

Melanie Avalon
I've never heard that.

Jill Robin Payne
I had a young client, and she saw me two times. That was it.

When I said that to her, that she just was so happy. That just helped her right there. And I think just that envisioning of, that's how come I tell you that my feel and thought on boundaries, it's like, what? It's just too ambiguous, just like your love, the word love. And so that's how come the bubble, the more, okay, in my book I say this, and I'm probably not the only one that came up with this, the more senses you use, the more things make sense. And I think that's what's missing in our world.

We're using less senses. Think about it. Things are just, oh, I'm going to tell you, I can't stand this, and I've got to get someone to tell me how to stop it. I started emailing people.

Do you know AI automatically? Well, when I'm getting the email back, it sends me a way to reply to them. I have to, I have to, I don't know how to get out of that. I'm going to.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so it's like stuck in like automatically doing it.

Jill Robin Payne
Yes! And it's not only annoying, AI is being pushed on us.

And in Newton's, one of Newton's law, and I tell people this, if you want to get your way, do not force it. If you force things, you are going to get, put your hands up together and push on it. You're going to get resistance, or you're going to push the person away. And they're just forcing all this AI on us. I'm not saying I don't like it. I just would like to choose when I use it. I think it's interesting.

Melanie Avalon
So I have a question about what you just said there. And again, this goes back to the idea of language.

So using words where something is being done to us, so like saying AI is being pushed on us, could we reframe that to make it more active where we're not a victim of it? So it's like we are experiencing more AI? Or is it helpful to... How do we know when it's appropriate? Oh, I got it.

Jill Robin Payne
it. Yes, I hear what you're saying because that just happened the other day when someone said something like that.

And see, look, there you were my accomplice. Here I'm a therapist. I'm a human. You were my accomplice because you just gave me another view. Do you understand? It's easier. And take me back here because I'm going to say one thing before I answer your question. So Melon, remember, remember where you are. Okay. So everybody out there, I want you to take your hand and face the palm towards your eyes. Everybody take your hand, face the palm towards your eyes, stretch your arm way far out so you can see all those lines in your palm. Now I want you to take that hand with the palm facing your eyes and bring it all the way up to your nose. What do you see? A bunch of blur. That's how we are in our world. And that's how come we need that accomplice to see some of those lines and help us go a different direction. Now take me back to where you want me to go.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. No, I love this.

So how do we know because I'm, and I'm not saying this is what you were doing. I just know like today there's a big, uh, or maybe it's always been this way, but I perceive right now a lot of victim mentality with things. So how do we know when it's appropriate to view something as being done to us compared to not having that perspective of it being done to us?

Jill Robin Payne
And it is how you phrase it. So, I gave AI the control by saying AI is doing. I need to say what Jill Payne is doing. So, in an action form, that's an easy way to do it, right? And that also, if you think about my dynamic watchfulness, it is taking action. Instead of being the victim, you are taking action and being dynamic and watching out or being observant of all the worlds that we live in, including AI.

So, that would be the best. And so, I would take it instead of saying AI is being pushed on me, I can say that I'm noticing that our society is using a lot more of AI and we just need to be aware, or I need to be aware of that. The fact is, that's the fact. Not that it's being pushed on me is not a fact. That it is more prevalent now is a fact, and that I need to be more aware of that and work accordingly of what I want. There you go. You see what I'm saying? So, it's take action.

Melanie Avalon
Like I feel challenged to take on the prevalence of AI.

Jill Robin Payne
Okay, there you go. That's fine.

You're telling the action of you. I like that. I just came up with that. That was great. Okay. Usually, if you come to my office, I don't tell you the way I do it. I just will give you an example. So, I was, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and let people find their way there.

Jill Robin Payne
Love it. Love it.

Oh, yeah. I love to give homework. I tell people, I am a therapist. I don't like to say that though. I work into trademark that I am a dream life motivator. Oh, I love that. You love it? Yeah. So, I have a lawyer who doesn't work into trademark because if you come to my office, you get your dreams. And that's how come I don't like to say therapist. Speaking of words, it has a negative connotation, mental illness. I don't use that word. If you come and you have mood issues, I say just that. I don't like to say that you're this. I have you go look it up in the DSM-5 with your characteristics. I give you some things and give you the power, yeah, or the control.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, oh my goodness. Actually would you like to know when I see my dream life maker, which I go every week?

What is this? When I go see my dream life maker, my therapist every week, would you like to know, and this actually relates to I guess perspectives, but what I, because I think it's so valuable and so important, there's only one thing that bothers me about going to therapy personally. And I know it's my own perspective. I get in my head and worry that this person listening to me for an hour or however long it may be, and she's never given me this inclination. She seems very riveted in what I'm talking about, and I though, from my perspective, it's not my calling to be a therapist. I would not want to sit in a room and listen to somebody talk for an hour. So I'm like, does she actually want to be here? I know she does, but that's historically what I've always worried about with therapists. I'm going to get in my head about, like, do they want to be there? Do we want to be there? Yeah, yeah. Or like, am I being selfish just talking about myself for an hour?

Jill Robin Payne
Can I tell you, I'll tell you my mindset. Do you want to know my mindset? I would love to, yes. Oh, okay. So I know that all my clients, I tell them this, I tell my husband if I can have pictures of them. All my clients are good looking. They're all wonderful. They're all brilliant. I'm just letting you know.

And so I don't know if I attract people like that or not. And I enjoy every conversation that I have with them. And that my goal is, and I will tell them that I'm a positive therapist, not saying everything is positive, a positive therapist and a solution focused so that you get some type of solution. MedFrog, I just came up with this about a week ago that I told my clients because all their dreams do come true, that what we'll do is at the beginning we talk about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at the end, we will focus in on what we want, what they want, not we, what they want. And I enjoy, you know what? I have my own practice. So people come to me if they like me. So they're not gonna come to me if they don't. So therefore they're wonderful people. That's my feel. So I'm sure you're...

Melanie Avalon
your therapist feels the same way. No, I'm sure she does. So it's funny because I narrate that in my head and then I tell myself that I'm aware that this is just my bias.

Jill Robin Payne
You know what? Just FYI, that would be something good for you to think about.

And I tell clients, is it working for you? And then if not, I say edit. I have people write down a bunch of stuff that's not working for them, and then you just edit it. Like, it's your book. It's your book. And you make it work for you. It's your life.

Melanie Avalon
Kind of like switching butt to and. Yeah.

Jill Robin Payne
That's it, you're the editor of your life. There you go.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Awesome.

Jill Robin Payne
Don't wait till my age to learn that.

Melanie Avalon
Right? Well, this has been so amazing.

Was there anything else you wanted to draw attention to for listeners? And again, listeners, so definitely get Bempathy and it's a very, very approachable book. You communicate so much and a short amount of... It's not overwhelming at all. It's very approachable. Relatively quick read and you will learn so much at the same time. And now I'm going to have to read your other book. Tell me the name of the other book again, the one about the relationships.

Jill Robin Payne
So meeting people, it's not a game, and it's your path to genuine connections through Bempathy.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Awesome. Are you writing another book now?

Jill Robin Payne
Well, no. And then I have another book that was the first Bempathy book, which was just what you talk about. It says, look at Bempathy, looking through children's eyes to simplify communication. And that's a real short one, just to get a little snippet about it.

And am I writing another one? I'm going to tell you what I'm doing. I'm really excited about it. My goal is to be in the Sundance Festival.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes.

Jill Robin Payne
And so, listen, I tell my clients, Melanie, I do, what is it? I walk the walk, talk the talk. They know that I'm not perfect. And if I tell them to get out of their comfort zone, I do it too.

So I am going to animate my own characters. So I'm going to be doing stop animation. And I am at HCCS, that's Houston Community College, at taking a photography course. And I just bought all this equipment. And I'm so excited that I'm going to be filming, I'm going on an African safari. And I'm going to be filming that. And I'm going to incorporate that with my animation. So I don't know what's going to happen. Yes, that's my goal. So I'm excited. Thank you for watching.

Melanie Avalon
asking. That is amazing. Yeah, I went for the first time. Have you been to the festival to Sundance?

Jill Robin Payne
I have not and it's being moved to, I'm so sad, it's moved to Colorado.

Melanie Avalon
I saw, I went last year, so actually my best friend from film school, he did his first feature film and it went to Sundance, nominated for best drama. It was the most like, talk about dreams coming true. It was so magical. It was the best thing ever.

Robert, were you there? I don't know. I literally just went, it's funny. I know it's like a whole festival and you know, there's all this happening. I literally just like flew there, went to his film and like, you know, went to the party after and then like went home. Traveling is not my fortune.

Jill Robin Payne
Can we touch base after because maybe you can even tell me the process so I don't get

Melanie Avalon
Sure. Yes, definitely.

Definitely. Definitely. Because yeah, he's actually been on this show as well. Carmen and me shout out to Carmen. Yeah, no, I can definitely would love to talk about it. And you guys and he would love to talk to you too. He's so sweet.

Jill Robin Payne
Can I tell you something? This is what I tell my clients. That's how come if you put out what you want, then it comes to you. Like I met my husband, well, God, I could go on and on. Let's just say manifestation.

Go look at self-fulfilling prophecy and the Pygmalion Effect. They've done studies with it and it really does work. And that's how come I tell people, please look at your life. And if you don't like it and need assistance, come see someone like me or talk to a friend. Remember an accomplice to help you get in the right direction for you. There you go.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I love it. Well, Jill, this has been absolutely wonderful. I cannot recommend your work enough to all listeners, so go get her books now.

We'll put links to them in the show notes. Are there any links you would like to put out there? How can listeners best follow your work? And do you take new clients?

Jill Robin Payne
sure. You know what? People call me up and they say, are you taking new clients? I said, well, my clients get better.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes, because that's where we got an open spot.

Jill Robin Payne
Right? And you know what I love is they'll text me or they'll call me and tell me about how their dreams are coming true, which I just cannot... So all my clients that are out there, I want you to know that I appreciate you filling me in on your wonderful life.

So anyway, tell people, look up the word, bempathy. I'm all over. There's two pages of me on bempathy. It's me. So if they look up the word, they'll find me. But I am on all... No buts. See, I just said it. I am on all the platforms except Instagram. I think that's it. And my website, jillrobinpane.com.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And also, you are being so kind. So listeners, if they say that they heard about you through this show, Jill will give you a 10% discount on working with her. So thank you.

That's absolutely amazing. And I, again, obviously cannot recommend that enough. So the last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day the importance of mindset with everything. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Jill Robin Payne
I am grateful for, wow, that's a big, I'm grateful for my family and my health and the higher power. That's what I'm grateful for.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jill. This was lovely. You were just such a sparkling, motivating personality, and it's been a joy. I literally just met you talking for the first time, and I feel like I know you so well. So it's so good to meet you.

Congrats in advance on all the future accomplishments to come with your Sundance film. I know it's going to happen, so it'll be absolutely amazing.

Jill Robin Payne
I just think, you know, I was telling my, oh, I could go on on, but anyway, I was saying to my, I'm older than you, and so my brother was saying, oh, so you're going to be doing this in your retirement? I said, I guess so.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I love it. It'll be amazing. Awesome. Well, thank you Jill. Cannot wait to stay connected in the future and you're the best. I really appreciate everything you're doing.

Jill Robin Payne
We're, you're amazing. So what I said at the very beginning, beautiful inside and out. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Well, thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, Why, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guests. And always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com. And always remember, you got this.