The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #340 - Abbie Maroño

TRANSCRIPT

Abbie Maroño
much easier to keep engaging in bad behaviors than it is to do the work and heal ourselves so we understand why we engage in bad behaviors. Shame is a signal that something you are doing is contradicting who you are or the way you perceive yourself or who you want to be.

When shame is not felt, people don't try and make amends because if I don't feel shame, then that's who I am, this is fine. So it is a signal to us that something needs to change.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics of lying here in. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this.

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Friends, it was such an honor to have Dr. Ivy Murano on the show today. She is such an incredible high achieving woman. She's a scientist and expert in the field of human behavior. She's been recognized by the United States Department of State. She's worked with the US Secret Service, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, local law enforcement agencies, and on top of all of that, she is such a kind human with a mind blowing personal story.

And her book work in progress is an incredible resource for how you can reframe what you're going through in your life and truly become quote, empowered. And yes, we will talk about what that actually means. In today's show, we touch on topics like the fear and concept of running out of time in life. The different social media perspectives and how you can actually use it to be motivated rather than fostering competition. Why we actually like punishing others, what to do if you have obsessive ambition and career fixation, why you should celebrate achievements, the power of kindness, and so much more.

The show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon.com slash work in progress. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, I have biohackers intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life comments, something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love. And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr.

Abby Morano. Hi friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly honored and excited about the conversation I am about to have. So the backstory on today's conversation, a while ago now, it probably aired, I think it probably aired in 2024. I had Chris Hadnaghi on the show for his book, Human Hacking, when friends influence people and leave them better off for having met you. He is absolutely fascinating. That conversation, it was all about engaging with people and learning how to interact with them to get what you want, but in a way that, you know, benefits everybody.

Melanie Avalon
It was a really incredible conversation. And then afterwards, he connected me to Dr. Abby Morono, as she goes by Dr. Abby, for her book at the time, at the time she had the one book, I think, or this book that we were talking about today, which is called Work in Progress, The Road to Empowerment, The Journey Through Shame. She also has another book out right now called The Upper Hand, Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. And I was telling Dr. Abby that I plan to read that one ASAP because I absolutely love Work in Progress. So I definitely want to read that one as well.

And so Dr. Abby, she has a PhD in psychology and she actually, this is wild audience friends, she became a professor of psychology by the age of 23. And she is now the director of education at Social Engineer LLC, and she specializes in behavior analysis. And her work has been featured all over the place. And her book, Work in Progress, is a really, really personal deep dive into her own story and what led her to what she is doing today because she's very successful doing all these incredible things. And her story, the path that she was on, people probably would not predict that it would lead to where she is now. The book dives really deep into something that we have not talked about on this show, I don't know ever, definitely not a deep dive into it, which is the role of shame in our story and our identity and how it affects us and how we should deal with and handle it and whether it's good, whether it's bad. And in particular, how it relates to a concept, a nebulous concept, which we will talk about, of empowerment and what does that even mean, how can you become empowered? Do you want to be empowered by the colloquial definition of the term? And then the book dives into just so many topics that relate to that. So things like self-compassion, self-care, boundaries, the role of kindness. It's really an amazing book.

I have so many questions. Dr. Abby, thank you so much for being here.

Abbie Maroño
Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
having me. So like I said, I really, really enjoyed your book. And to start things off, it's funny because my first question is usually, you know, tell me a little bit about your personal story. But so much of this is going to be about your personal story.

So with that in mind, I guess what I will ask to start is I would love to hear about your personal story. And I mentioned it just now that, you know, people looking in and even you reflecting on it while it was happening to you probably would not have predicted that you would be where you are today. I'm curious when you sat down to write this book. Did you go into the book with a set thesis about shame being a big part of this and you know, the role of being a work in progress and empowerment or were you writing your story and you kind of found it as you were writing? Because like I said, it's a topic. It's topics that have not really come up on this show. Definitely not in the way that you look at it. That's a great

Abbie Maroño
question. And when I sat down to write this book, I wasn't actually intending to write a book on shame at all. I was intending to write a book about efficiency. Because I was very young and achieving quite a lot for my age, a lot of people would ask me about, you know, how do I get to where I am in my career? How do they get to those places themselves? How do they become more productive? So I thought that it was the book that people wanted from me, and it was the one that made sense to write.

And anybody that knew me at that time of my life would know I was not a very open person. It's only in the last couple of years since the book was published that I have been open about my story. So when I sat down to write the book about efficiency, I remember Joe Navarro, he taught me let the words just come. Because him and I had started to work on a book together about trust. And I'd written a couple of chapters with him and he stopped it and he said, you can't write this with me, you have to do your own. Because he didn't want me to follow in his footsteps. And he didn't want to overshadow my name with his. And he's a big time author. So he said to me, if we did this together, it would always be Joe and Abby. And he said he wanted me to have Abby. And then when I was ready, we do a book together. And that was such a blessing. So I sat down to write the book about efficiency. And he said, just start with words. See what words come to you. Don't come with a structured plan at first. Just see what comes to you. So I started to write. And it just happened. I just started to write about what I felt in that moment. And a little bit about where I got to where I was. And I had so many things saved on my phone, on my notes pages. So I copy and pasted them into a Word document things just over the years I'd written. And when I put it all together, it started to form into a very different kind of book. So I had to take a step back and realize this isn't looking like what I intended it to look like. But it was feeling like this was where I needed to go. And I for a very long time had purposely halted my career. Because there were things I was very afraid of being found out and very ashamed of. So I didn't want to have a website. And when I did eventually make a website, anytime it said I had a visitor on the website, I would panic. I didn't want to do podcasts. And I was uncomfortable even sleeping and going to work. Just overwhelmed by shame and this fear of being found out as an imposter. And when I started to write that book, the key thing that kept coming out was that feeling. So it felt like the honest work of I didn't get to where I am because I'm efficient. I got to where I am because of the battles that I have fought and the way that I have carried myself through them and the lessons that I learned through them. And that felt like a much more honest book.

And it felt like the book that people needed because I then took another step back and thought, what would I have needed to hear at that point in my life before going to university and before really deciding what career route I wanted?

Abbie Maroño
What is it that I needed to hear? And this was the book that felt right.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. That is amazing. So how old were you when you wrote this book? When you started writing it? I must have been 23. Okay. I'm putting it in perspective. That's how old I was. Yeah, that's old.

I was 24 when I wrote my book. We have a similar trajectory there. Okay. That is so, so incredible. So when you have this realization about the role of shame in your life and how it was affecting you, I have a question about just like definitions to start things off, because when it comes to this idea of shame, what is the difference between shame versus guilt? Like I hear different things all the time and people are defining them differently. So what is like, what is shame to you?

Abbie Maroño
That's another great question. One that I got asked today because I posted a blog about shame and someone commented and said, well, actually, I think what you're describing is guilt. And they had just read the subtitle of the article and I pointed out that when you dig deeper, there is a large overlap and people are very confused by the difference.

Now, shame is about the self. Guilt is about behavior. So shame encompasses guilt, but guilt doesn't necessarily encompass shame. So if we define shame, it's about something I'm doing or something I have done and can be even felt goes against who I see myself to be or who I want to be. So say you are religious and you do something that goes against your religious teachings, you might feel shame because you see yourself one way or you want to be one way and you've done something that contradicts that. Now, guilt is about behavior. You have done something that makes you feel bad, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on your sense of self. So if I feel shame about something I have done, then it makes me feel like not just the behavior is flawed, but I am somehow flawed.

It's not just something I have done. It is a flaw of my character. It is a flaw of me. And with shame, there is this real sense of worthlessness and this feeling of I'm unlovable. Now let's take another example. Say you have just broken up with a partner and maybe you cheated on this partner and you see yourself as a loyal person. Now, when you break up, you might feel shame because you've done something that contradicts the way you see yourself or how you want to be. If you break up with a partner, but it still hurts, you maybe loved that person, but you know that it was the right thing to do, you feel guilt because you hurt them, but it doesn't mean that it reflects on your sense of worthiness.

Now, the thing with shame that people often get really confused by is there's two types of shame. There's healthy shame and there's toxic shame. And toxic shame is usually the shame that we think about because it's the most prevalent. Now, say I do something that I regret. What happens is we have this bad behavior and then we go, okay, well, I behaved bad, therefore I am bad or I am flawed. So what we've done is instead of directing the shame at behavior, we've moved it to now I'm flawed of character.

And when we say now I'm flawed of character, what do you think happens? Well, if I'm bad, what's the point in trying to change? So if we feel that feeling of I am flawed, I am unworthy, what's the point in trying to be better because I'm flawed to my core. Now, healthy shame is that feeling of worthlessness is still felt. It's something that's very hard not to feel. But what we can do is we can really think critically and we can move the dial from behavior to off self even to behavior. So I did a bad thing, but it doesn't mean I am bad. Those emotions might still be there. You might feel really horrible about the self, but that cognitive understanding of I am not bad because I behaved bad.

Abbie Maroño
I can change and everybody feels shame. That's healthy shame. It doesn't make it feel any nicer.

Shame is a horrible thing to feel because it reflects on the self. But when you have that critical thinking and the understanding that shame is a very, very normal human and actually essential, and we can get into that. It is an essential thing for our species to feel. And when you understand what shame is actually signaling to you and there is a normal thing to feel, we can then go, okay, this behavior that I have engaged in makes me feel shame, so I want to stop engaging in it. If we don't understand that that shame is an essential thing to feel, we then kind of run from it and we keep doing it so we don't have to face ourself.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha. Okay. That example about the breakup was really helpful for me for understanding the difference.

Do you think people naturally will gravitate towards healthier, toxic shame intuitively as humans, or does it depend on how we're raised, like what we're taught growing up, like what determines what direction a person falls in with it being healthy or toxic response?

Abbie Maroño
Well, there's a few different things. Some people naturally have a propensity towards shame where they do something bad and they naturally reflect on their sense of self. But a lot of it is taught when we're very, very young. So you have a kid who misbehaves and a parent might say, you're a bad kid. And we learn, okay, bad behavior means bad self. And we grow up believing that.

And then also there's a lack of education really on shame. And I've spoken to many therapists and counselors who have read my book and then come back to me and said, I never saw shame as a positive thing to be felt. And it's always recognized as the antithesis of empowerment. And that's just not true. It just doesn't work that way. It's, it's essential for empowerment, but it doesn't feel good.

So when things feel bad, because it, it's so deep to the core, when you are thinking, I don't feel like I have much worth, that is a horrible, horrible thing to feel. When we recognize that shame is an essential thing and we look at it in a healthy manner, that requires us to dive into it, because if we go, okay, shame is a signal and we can talk about what it signals in a minute. But if we recognize that shame is important and it's a signal, we need to then dive straight into, okay, why do I feel shame? Why did I do this thing that I did? And usually behind our bad behaviors are very painful things. And a lot of us don't really know what our emotions signal and we don't really know how to control or regulate our emotions. So we avoid doing that. And because it feels so bad, we have this tendency to avoid doing that hard work of where did this shame come from?

What is it in me that is making me engage in these things? The easiest thing to do is say, I'm a terrible person and I don't deserve healing. Even though that hurts, it is the easier option. It is much easier to keep engaging in bad behaviors than it is to do the work and heal ourselves so we understand why we engage in bad behaviors.

Melanie Avalon
It kind of reminds me of a perspective on things like triggers or feeling defensive. People see those feelings as problematic and negative or something to be avoided, but really they're like a flashlight to things that you need to work on personally.

So it kind of sounds like shame can be a similar flashlight situation there.

Abbie Maroño
Absolutely. And if we think about how energy hungry the brain is, it doesn't make sense for shame to have no function. So our brain weighs 2% of our body mass, but it takes up 20% of our energy. It is extremely energy hungry. In fact, if you look at the calorie expenditure and the energy expenditure of professional chess players whilst doing a professional match, it matches that of an athlete because it is burning and burning and burning. It is an extremely energy hungry organ. So it doesn't do things by accident. And emotions don't just happen by accident. And they wouldn't have survived evolution if they serve no function. All emotions are just signals. That's it.

They are just signals. When you feel anger, it means there is a perceived injustice. When you feel happiness, there is something that is bringing you joy, something that you like, something that should be repeated. So it is a signal to then encourage behaviour. Now, shame is a signal that something you are doing is contradicting who you are or the way you perceive yourself or who you want to be. That is a very, very important signal because we are a social species. And a lot of shame that is felt is social shame. So we do something that goes against a group norm and we feel shame for it, whatever that grouping may be. And when we look at the research on what happens when people engage in bad behaviours and they feel shame versus when they don't feel shame. If people engage in a bad behaviour and then feel shame, they are more likely to try and make amends with people that have been wronged or people that have been hurt. And they are more likely to try and engage in pro-social behaviour afterwards.

When shame is not felt, people don't try and make amends. Because if I don't feel shame, then that's who I am. This is fine. So it is a signal to us that something needs to change. And when that signal comes, it feels horrible. But it is your brain saying you are doing something you don't actually want to be doing. You're doing something that you know you shouldn't be doing. So we need to dig deep and figure out why are you doing this? But that feeling is so horrible. So when we feel shame, we then tend to push it down and deny it, suppress it and use things to escape it.

And when we do that, what do you think happens? more shame. So, say you're engaging in bad behaviors. Maybe you're drinking and it's not something you like to do. Maybe you're making very risky choices. Maybe you are making risky sexual practices, whatever it is that's making you feel shame. And you have that feeling and you don't want to face, why am I doing these things? So, the best way to not face it is to push shame down and keep doing it. Or maybe I want to numb that feeling so I drink more. Or I don't have any alone time so I don't have any time with my thoughts.

Abbie Maroño
Or I isolate completely from the rest of the world so nobody can try and engage in me. Or I bury myself in my work. All of these things can now create this loop where you have more shame. If you're escaping your shame via drinking, because that is a very effective way not to feel, you might then do more things that bring you shame. So, you then put that behind you and keep going and keep going and keep going.

And you get into these cycles. And I remember I was volunteering at a rehabilitation center and there was a man there who was previously an addict but had worked through his struggles and now supported the rehabilitation center and worked as staff. And he said to me that for such a long time, he felt so much shame for the things that he had done that his only option was to keep doing them. Because when you look back and you see it all piling up, it becomes so overwhelming. So, then it just keeps piling up. And the way that I teach it is, imagine there's a little hill, just a hill of shame. And you go, oh, I don't want to cross that yet. You keep moving forward. But every step away from facing it, it gets bigger. And then you look behind you and you're like, oh, that's pretty big now. So, I better keep going. And then maybe it'll get smaller. But it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And now it's not a hill anymore. Now it's a mountain. And you go, oh, I couldn't possibly make that climb. So, I'm going to keep heading in the direction that I'm going because that's too overwhelming. But it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And there's no way to make it smaller. Shame doesn't go away. It just accumulates. Because now the root of that shame is deeper. Because maybe you needed to dig through that hill. Now you need to dig through a mountain. So, you need to turn around and face it. And there is no other way through than you have to face your shame. There's no way to keep going and get into healing and get to empowerment other than facing shame. And that's where the link with empowerment comes from. So, empowerment is a very confused notion. And it's often used as a weapon. But to me, empowerment is about self-understanding and self-acceptance. It doesn't mean you think you're perfect, but it means I understand why I do the things that I do and I accept myself. And the way that I phrase it is, you can't use me against me. Meaning if you look at the things you've done, it doesn't make you right now feel less of a person. And someone can't use your behaviors against you to make you feel less of a person. Because you have faced it. And you understand that, okay, maybe I'm not perfect, but there is room to grow and I can grow. And you can't get to that space without going through shame. Because if you keep running away from it, how are you going to get across to the other side? And that's where empowerment is.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, so many things. So hearing you talk about shame, is it a synonym for or related to the idea of a person's conscience? Because that's what was hitting me, like hearing you talking about it.

And with my religious upbringing, it sounds kind of like how the conscience was posited to us.

Abbie Maroño
Yeah. So it's largely to do with morals. So conscience, absolutely. It's an accumulation of that sense of self. So your value system, your morals, and everybody's is different, which is why, say, I might engage in something that causes me shame, but you engaging in that wouldn't cause you shame. And you might engage in things that cause you shame that if I did, I wouldn't feel shame. Because it is about that deep sense of self. And our sense of self is, obviously, personality, but it's largely morals and values. So absolutely.

Melanie Avalon
Does a person's sense of self, it's interesting because you talk in the book about like with empowerment how, and I mentioned this earlier, but there's people have so many different definitions for it. And actually, I mentioned this conversation in the last podcast I recorded, completely different topic, but his book was called Empowered. It was about EMF exposure, so it wasn't a self-help book or anything. But I was asking him, you know, what is your definition of empowerment? Because, you know, I just read about it a lot in your book and how people have different definitions.

And then also with the sense of the self, you talk in the book about how people define that differently. So where do you think the sense of a person's self lies? And something I've wondered for years and years is, do you think we have a, like an established sense of self that doesn't change? And then parts of it change with behavior and circumstances? Or can it change completely? Or do some people not have a sense of self and it can, you know, change all around? I just feel like I've always, I feel like I've always had a pretty steady sense of self. But maybe I'm just retroactively making that narrative in my head. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on where the sense of self lies and what it is.

Abbie Maroño
So we all have a sense of self. All of us have something. If I say to you, who are you, you can define that for me. And it may be your career, it may be your family, it may be your morals, it may be religious or spiritual, but you have a sense of who you are to a degree. Now, even when people say, I don't know who I am, it doesn't mean that they don't have a sense of self. It means they're just in search.

So we have personality. We know we have some core aspects of personality that do appear very stable over time. So whether you are an introvert or an extrovert and things like that, they do appear quite stable over time. But personality does fluctuate to a degree. And we know that our brain morphology changes, meaning the shape and size of certain regions. It changes based on our experiences. Now we have in our DNA, obviously we are biological beings. So we have characteristics that we have inherited, but they give us propensities. So we may be more vulnerable to certain situations. Some people may be more vulnerable to feeling shame, and they may have a propensity towards being a more positive person, but then our environment also shapes that. So they're constantly interacting, this sense of personality. And then through our education, it can change. Say you define your sense of self as a political person, and you have one very, very strong view, but then you educate yourself more on the topic. And actually you change your view because you realize, oh, okay, it's not quite what I believed.

So that sense of self can change, which is why I called the book work in progress, because we have this idea of a very stable sense of self. Now that can be to a degree of, I'm someone that generally has these morals and values, because they generally are very stable. But then the way you interact with the world and your experiences can shape them to certain degrees. But we aren't constantly changing. We are getting educated or uneducated. We meet new people. We go into different cultures, different climates. We learn new things. We go through traumas. We meet the love of our life, or we meet a wonderful friend. And all of these things, they can change us in small or dramatic ways. And it can change our sense of self.

And even social movements, it's very easy to get wrapped in, say, identity politics. And everybody is moving one way, so you move that way, try and go against the grain. And all of these things shape our sense of self. That's why it can be very, very disarming for us as we go through different periods of our life. Because you might at one point say, okay, I know exactly who I am. And then maybe you lose your job. Or maybe for no reason, you just feel stuck. And you think, I was so happy. Or maybe you define yourself as an independent person and you don't need anyone. And then you meet someone that just shakes your world and your views on what matters completely changes. Or you move to a different state or a different country or around different cultures. All of these things, they can shape who we see ourself to be and really what we like as we learn more about ourselves and change.

Abbie Maroño
And it can be very, very disarming. So yes, we have a general innate sense of self, but it can change in big ways and small ways. For most people, changing is not as dramatic. So we change incrementally over time, which is usually the case.

Because people are very stubborn. Once we see ourself one way, we like to believe that that's the way that we are and we like to stick by it. But often, someone wants to be better, or someone wants to be different, and they actively make a choice to change and learn more. And that can absolutely happen. But it is uncommon for huge, dramatic changes in sense of self, unless after a major life event, or say a major trauma. And trauma is a big one for the sense of self, because say you are a very trusting, caring person, and then someone puts you through a horrific experience. And now, as much as you might want to be that version of yourself, your world has changed. You can never, ever go back to that version of yourself that saw the world as kind and something that could not hurt you, because it has just hurt you.

So now you have to change that sense of self and almost refine it. And the integration of what stays of my old self and what is new with this new self can be very disarming, because we can't shed our sense of self like a snake. You know, you're not shedding a skin, and then you can just move on as, you know, new year, new me doesn't work that way. We learn new things, and we can change and grow. But ultimately, we are still ourselves. So it's that integration of past and present and future self that can be very confusing.

And again, that's why I called it work in progress, because the work is never done. You may have that realization of I feel great with who I am, I love who I am. And then it can change in the blink of an eye.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and to that point, because we've hinted at it, but a large part of the book is your personal journey through all of this. And people looking at your accomplishments now, and I mentioned this earlier, but they might not have expected it from how you were growing up, which involved a lot of partying and drugs and not excelling in school, all the things.

So for you, it feels like a pretty big shift from who you were externally, like the way it looks externally, from who you were when you were younger versus now. For you, how long was that actual timeline of that shift for you when you were going through it? Did you have an epiphany one day and change? I know this is on the book, but just for listeners, what was that like for you?

Abbie Maroño
Well, there was some moments that were major moments of change. And then I still change in small ways regularly. Now I'm still learning. And for me, the biggest moment was like a lot of us when we have that moment of sink or swim.

I was a very lost kid. I was a very hurt kid. And I didn't know where to turn. I didn't have a safe space at home to turn to when I was struggling, because a lot of the things that I was trying to escape from came from the home. So I also didn't have a lot of friends. And when the inclusion criteria of a certain friend group was they did drugs. And when I did those drugs, everybody liked me. So okay, well, that's what I do now. But not everybody that does drugs becomes an addict. And not everybody that drinks becomes an addict. A lot of people can drink and do drugs regularly and don't need it. They don't feel that dependency. For me, I was escaping my life. So the second I stopped taking them, I had to feel myself again. I had to feel what it was like to live as myself. And I was so desperate not to be who I was that I didn't know how to function without them. And it got to a point. And of course, when you're taking drugs, especially drugs like ketamine and cocaine and methadone, methadrone, sorry, and all of these drugs that are very, very intense and dangerous, it changes your brain chemistry. So you're physically fighting for your life all the time. And there was a big change moment for me that I realized it was sink or swim. And I was away with a friend of mine. She actually was a friend before I had started taking drugs. And we'd lost contact. And we'd booked this holiday with her family a while back. And she reached out to me and had said, would you like to come with us? You're still invited. And it was very out of the blue. And I thought at the time, everything had just come crumbling down. My dad had kicked me out. I was living with my mom. I had just thrown a party at my dad and my mom's house. And I had lost a lot of people and was going through what I thought was a pretty bad breakup at the time. So it felt like a good move to get away. And when I was away, because I couldn't take any drugs, I started to get really serious withdrawals. And I hadn't pictured myself as an addict. It was just something that I did. And even though I was in dangerous situations all the time, I mean, staying out for days and nights at a time in the forest, it never really clicked how serious it was until I was away and I'm shaking and I'm sweating and I'm throwing up. And I see I'm 16 years old. And this is about to be the end of my life. And I have that moment of, if I don't change, I am going to die, or this is going to be me for the rest of my life. And that moment, I think for me, was a huge change.

But there was always something inside of me. My dad's always said that I was a fighter. And my dad's a fighter. There's nothing you can put that man through that he won't come out fighting. And he may get knocked down, but there's nothing you can do to keep him down.

Abbie Maroño
And I have that trait from him. If I want something, I will get it. Because I know that everything can be achieved with enough determination. If you work hard enough at anything, if you want something bad enough and you're willing to sacrifice, you can have it.

And I've always had that trait, even from very, very young. So in that moment when I saw myself and I realized I hate every aspect about who I am, for me, that was the fight that I needed to, OK, it ends today. I cannot wake up tomorrow and be this person again. So when I went back to my home, I made a change.

I was kicked out of college at the time, or what Americans call high school. So I begged them to let me stay. They let me redo the year, but they did want me to stay an extra year. So I did the two years at once. I asked my dad if I could come back home because living with my mom was traumatic in itself. So my dad let me come back home. And from that moment, I ditched every friend that I had. I carried on just working and working and working because I knew that I had to build a new person. And that's when I found psychology. So for me, psychology became that sense of self because I was lost. I didn't know who I was. And I didn't know really what to do with that. I was never taught how to deal with my emotions. My dad was a very angry person. My mom was a very bitter and manipulative person. So the regulation skills I had learned were quite harmful in themself, and it just wasn't working for me. So when I found psychology, I realized this could help me understand myself. And it became my lifeline.

And then it became who I am. And even today, there is no separating me from my career. I am my career. I have other aspects of who I am, but my career is so central to who I am because psychology taught me, as I was learning it and excelling in my career, everything I was learning, I was putting to work in my own self. So while I'm teaching emotional regulation, I'm learning to be regulated. When I'm teaching career progression and personal development and career development, I'm learning those things and putting them to work in my own career too. So I've had major moments like that. And of course, after you have, say, a big breakup or a traumatic life experience, you can have those moments again. But then every so often, you have moments where you realize, oh, I've changed a lot in the past couple of months. And maybe, again, you join a new friend group or you meet someone new. And you naturally start to become a little bit more like them. And that happens to all of us. We merge our personalities almost and behaviors with the people that we are in proximity most often. So as we go into different friend groups in different cities, and for me, I'm a Brit, and I live in America. And there are aspects of me that are very different now simply for making that change because I've adapted to this culture.

Abbie Maroño
And when I go back home now, there's things that feel unfamiliar to me and the ways people behave with each other that I used to be like that now feel a little bit unfamiliar. So we have these small changes that we don't realize are happening to us, but they happen.

And sometimes it's just, oh, okay, maybe I need to learn a little bit more about why I did this. And again, those small changes can happen. So it's a collection of those small incremental changes. And then you can have those big moments, maybe not to such a degree of, okay, I have been, let's take the relationship example again, or I have been single for a very long time and I keep repeating patterns. So this week, I need to sit with myself and do a deep dive into what are these patterns and why do they keep occurring? And that can lead to significant changes in the self, but it doesn't have to be quite as dramatic as that moment when you reflect in the mirror and realize something very serious has to change.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just super curious when you were on that trip with your friend and you were getting sick. Were you able to hide that from them or did they, like, how did they react?

Abbie Maroño
were wonderful. I think they felt very sorry for me. I was, I was so young. And I, you know, I have achieved a good amount now at my age, but I think because I grew up so quickly. And when I was that age, I didn't feel that age. I, but I was, I was still just a kid. And I think for my parents, when they saw me misbehaving, they saw it as a bad kid. And that's how they treated it, a bad kid. And a lot of the teachers in the school, it was, she's a bad kid. And because I was being treated that way, that's okay. Well, I'm bad. I'll keep doing it. But I think they saw me differently. They didn't see a bad kid. They saw someone who's hurt and lost and struggling and need someone to care for them. So they were really wonderful on that trip.

And I think it could have definitely have gone a different way if they had gotten mad that I was sick. And she, the friend, her name was Chloe, she knew that I had been struggling. And she looked at me differently. She didn't look at me like I was this horrible person, like I felt. I think she just looked at me as someone that needed help. Wow. Well.

Melanie Avalon
shout out to Chloe. That's amazing.

Speaking about what you were talking about with finding psychology and then your work becoming so important to you and your career being so important to you. So that was a part of the book that I really identify with as well. I love what I do. So many things that you said about your work, I was like, that's exactly how I feel. You couldn't pay me not to work. I love doing it. And you mentioned how the concept of work-life boundaries and how that's going to look different for different people because you love your work so much. So you're never going to be working just a nine-to-five job. You're always going to be doing more. So I'm curious your thoughts because something I struggle with, because like I said, I'm very, very similar. And I'm trying to think if it's guilt or shame because I love my work. I love doing it. And I feel sometimes, I guess it's guilty for working so much. I don't think it's shame because I like who I am as a workaholic. I almost feel like it's a negative thing. I'm trying to think if that would be guilt or shame. So would you call that guilt or shame? And what are your thoughts on that? Like feeling guilty or shameful about working a lot?

Abbie Maroño
I think it can be guilty to the self, so if you see yourself as a very successful career person and you take breaks, now you feel guilty because, okay, I should be being productive, but you know objectively I need rest. And I think a lot of people who are ambitious, and there's, again, there's hyperambitious, just like there's hyperindependence, and it's called obsessive ambition, and then ambitious. And I think this is where that feeling comes from. So ambition is that sense of I really want to make something of myself, and often it does come from career. I really want these achievements. Now, healthy ambition is I really, really want these achievements, but if I don't get them, I still have value, and I need to figure out why I haven't achieved them. Now, obsessive ambition is if I don't achieve these things, I don't have value. And when we define ourselves just by our career, often we lack a well-rounded sense of self because it is wholly made up by one aspect.

And our sense of self should accumulate so many different things. But often when we're running from certain things, we deep dive into one aspect, and that's what I've done. And I've deep dived into my career. And it's funny you say you couldn't pay me enough because I always say the same thing. I always say, if someone said I'm going to give you a billion dollars, but you can never do psychology again, I couldn't take it because I do not know a world where I could feel fulfilled without doing psychology. And that's what life is about. It's not about money and things. It's about how you feel in your life. And I would rather have less money and feel happy and fulfilled than be miserable surrounded by stuff. So because that's my sense of self, and I want to live in alignment with who I am. But that feeling of I should take a break is largely society says, this is what you should do. So we take in, okay, well, if I want to be this kind of person, then I need to do these things because society says that I should, or social media says that I should. And it can make us feel like something we're doing is wrong. But what I have found is that objective reality and the subjective reality really don't merge. When we go, okay, well, I know I should take breaks and breaks are healthy, but then when you take a break, you feel guilty and it's guilty because the work isn't being done. And I had this realization recently of just how much, you know, I know I've always defined myself by my career, but just how much if you took it from me, I wouldn't know what's left. And I remember it was earlier this year, I completed my first training, my first solo training for the Secret Service. I had trained them a few times before, but this really marked a different path of my career, a very different milestone. And I had trained them based on the framework of influence that I created. And after the training, they gave me an award for outstanding contribution to their forensic services.

Abbie Maroño
And then I went on to do other trainings for the NSA, FBI leadership, Secret Service. And I ended up training 29 federal agencies as well as Interpol leadership. And all of these things were things that I had said, if I ever get to these milestones, I know I'm going to be so happy and I know I'm going to be so fulfilled. And I put my awards on my wall and I put, you know, my PhDs on the wall, my degrees are on the wall, my awards from the Secret Service are on the wall. And I look at them and I'm in an apartment in Florida in a dream job and a dream world. And I look at them and I go, why don't I feel like I'm enough? Why don't I feel happy? Because I've achieved everything and more than I ever thought that I would. And when I was creating these goals, I had that once I do these, I'm going to love my life, I'm going to feel valued. And I didn't.

All I felt was honestly like a failure. And the reason that I felt like a failure is because you have these goals and when you have obsessive ambition, Like I would say that both of us have obsessive ambition. Once you achieve the goal, you instantly move the goal post. So you know you should be resting. But how can you rest when there is a new goal? And I have to achieve that goal to feel like I have value. I achieve that goal, but I've instantly moved the goal post. So how can I rest? Because if I rest, I can't have value because I haven't achieved the goal, and again, and again, and again. And it took that moment looking at my wall of all these things that I thought would make me happy. In an apartment, I thought would make me happy, realizing I'm not happy. And I don't feel like my life feels right. Something's missing. And that's that feeling of, OK, now I need to deep dive into the self. And it's a very uncomfortable feeling.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think for me, some things that have been really helpful and improved key along along this route is like, and you have this whole section on self care in the book, and it sounds like you came to a similar place, I had the realization of the utmost importance of self care, like if I'm going to do all these things, that has to be a non negotiable, basically. So it's literally I like that you say something about like, you know, literally scheduling in, you know, your personal time in your self care. And that's definitely what I do.

And a quote, a friend told me a quote once, and every now and then I hear something and it radically changes my perspective. And I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, really successful people get by on, you know, caffeine and not much sleep. But the most successful people like basically understand the importance of sleep. And I was like, Oh, that's very helpful. That's like a nice reframe for, you know, because I would feel guilty about like, you know, sleeping too much or something. And I think the other thing with the happiness is I'm very acutely aware that I'm always going to be setting another goalpost. So like, I'm not ever looking for a certain achievement to be like the be all in doll and like the happiness. I'm like very acutely aware that things will feel good. Like I will achieve things and they will feel good and I will enjoy them. And then there will be something else. And that's what makes me feel like okay about nothing being lasting because I know I can always do something more, which I guess could, on the one hand that could make it, you know, more obsessive and make it more not taking a break and a problem there. Or I think if you can like have that perspective and integrate self care and boundaries, personal boundaries and things like that, like that's, that's, that's the setup that works for me, like being super aware that things make me happy, but that they're temporary. And then going after the next one.

Abbie Maroño
Yeah, I think that that is a very healthy mindset because I remember speaking to a friend of mine, Judd Shaw. And it was after I'd come back from a big training. And he said, How do you feel you must feel on top of the world. And I said, Judd, I couldn't feel smaller. I couldn't feel less important. And I always get that I had just come back from a tour. And I did six different states and some amazing keynotes that I was so honored to do. And I got home and I felt so small, because I'd move that goalpost.

And it's the mentality. Because when you're that ambitious, you will always move the goalpost. And that the moving of the goalpost isn't the problem. It's the mentality. And it's the self talk is the way that we think of it. And I said to him, how do I make this feeling go away? And he laughed and he said, it's your superpower. You can't make it go away. And you shouldn't try. You need to rethink it. And I part of me didn't want to change because you think, well, look how much I've achieved by being this way. Look how much I've achieved by not sleeping by working out so much and pushing myself and every aspect of my life to try and be this ultimate person of everything I do is structured and intense. And you think, well, look how much I've achieved. And he said, yeah, absolutely, you have. But how do you feel within your life? And it was that, well, I feel small and unimportant, even though I'm doing these things that I thought would make me feel important.

And he said that it's not the goalpost. It's the way that you think about it. When those feelings come in, you let them consume you. And we have this habit of taking our feelings too personally. And I know that's a funny thing to say because there are feelings. But when we feel anger, we don't go okay, this anger is a signal, we go I'm an angry person. When we feel shame, we don't go, well, I did a bad thing and something needs to change. We go, ah, well, I'm bad. And we do this with all of our emotions. So when we feel small, and we feel those feelings of worthlessness, we go, I'm worthless. But if we really recognize that this is a natural thing for people that are very, very ambitious, and go, okay, well, even though it feels like it, actually, what this feeling is doing is it's trying to keep me pushing. So I should thank it, I should say thank you to it, but recognize that it lies to me.

Because our feelings make us feel like I'm going to feel this way forever or like I am this way. But again, they're just signals. And when you realize that they just feel it, it doesn't mean that they are, you might feel like a failure. Thank that feeling for keeping you pushing, but recognize it is a lie. You are not a failure. And we often have this thing as we feel like time is running out. And if I don't do this now, then I, I'm running out of time and maybe someone else is going to get it or if I don't get it by the end of the month or next week, then I somehow failed.

Abbie Maroño
And I've always felt like I'm running out of time. But who's time? There is no time of our life, it just happens. And when you realize that that is a really natural feeling, and you shouldn't hold yourself accountable for it, you can kind of change that mentality.

And the way we speak to ourselves, it changes our brain. So when we say, I'm a failure, I need to keep doing this, I need to keep doing this, it increases cortisol, cortisol, our stress hormone, so it keeps us pushing in survival mode. So we're doing the things we're doing, because we're almost neurologically fighting for our life. And when we change that self talk of, okay, these feelings are coming in, but I am worthy. And I do deserve happiness. And instead of I'm doing this, because if I don't do what I'm failing, I'm doing this because I deserve these opportunities, simple changes like that, just the way we talk to ourselves, it can lower our cortisol. And then we also have this habit of not celebrating achievements. I think it's so important to celebrate milestones and it doesn't have to be career. You can celebrate taking the weekend off because when you put positive emotions to things that are healthy for us, it kind of breaks that cycle of this is something that I need to do. It's something that needs to be done. I have to do it to, wow, this is something that I did. Good for me. You can kind of break that cycle a little bit. And when we talk to ourselves in positive ways and we go, I am worthy and we do this repeatedly, it actually engages the reward pathway of the brain, meaning we start to feel rewarded when we start to talk positively about ourselves. So we want to do it more. So that's why I say trying to make it a habit. And if you're something into my routine, it will not stick. So for me, I have to put it in my routine. For other people, they're a little bit more spontaneous. And if having a certain time of day to do it doesn't work for you, then fine. But find a way that works for you to fit these in and do them regularly, because it does start to change how rewarding it feels. Like at first, it might feel, oh, this is doing nothing. I don't feel any better. But then after a while, it does start to change the way you see yourself.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think for me, because I know there are different levels of introvert versus extrovert and how much actual time people need doing social things to feel socially and mentally and emotionally healthy. Like for me, that's going out once a week. And so I have to make sure that I go out, I mean, I like to go out once a week, but I'll go out twice if I have to. But during that time, because I'm so work focused the rest of the time, I just thought about this because you're talking about celebrating, that's the time where I don't do work and I literally just celebrate and have fun. And that's so helpful for me.

But something I've struggled with, I've struggled to let myself do that and really just enjoy it and feel like I shouldn't be working or all the other things. And I think a lot of it does go back to what you mentioned about running out of time. Oh my goodness, Abby, I can't even explain how. I literally have a podcast about longevity and it's because I have had a fear of running out of time and aging since I remember when. It was when I was 12, I think. I was watching Spy Kids, I don't know if you remember that movie.

Abbie Maroño
I absolutely remember that movie.

Melanie Avalon
So they were like, the main girl in that was, I don't know what age she was compared to me, a couple years older. I made in my mind, I was like, well, I think she was like 13 in that movie. I was like, okay, I have to make it. By the time I'm 13, I have to be in a movie. I literally made that goalpost.

And ever since then, it was like the time was ticking. That's just the way I see the world. And so I'm fascinated by people who don't have this experience. And it's why I often, okay, here's a question for you. Would you want to live forever? That's a great question.

Abbie Maroño
I mean, there's the famous Batman quote, right? Either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. After a certain amount of time, we go through so much and it changes us. So I don't know.

I don't think I would want to live forever because I love the fact that I have found meaning in my life now. And that's what brings me joy because time is precious. So when you think, okay, well, time is infinite, nothing really has value because I can do it tomorrow and because it can always get done. When you realize that time is a scarce resource, everything you do becomes so much more important of if I give time to this thing that doesn't bring me joy, then I'm taking away from something else. And you realize how important it is to love the people around you and be around people that are good for you. And I spent a lot of time around people that were very bad for me and in bad relationships.

And when I moved to America and I started to really love my life, I realized that changing my environment changed me so much because I had removed myself from a lot of people who were very negative. And I realized that it really doesn't matter what your life looks like. It's how it feels. And if you live an infinite amount of time, nothing really has any meaning anymore.

So nothing feels good because, well, what's the point? And with this, like you said about running out of time and where it comes from, I think such a huge part of it is social media. If you go on Instagram, say you're someone that you really want to be in real estate, you look at any real estate influencer and it's like you need to earn this amount of money at this age. Otherwise you have no value.

This is what it means to be successful. If you're a new mom, you look on Instagram and this is how you should be a mom. This is how you should parent. If you don't, you're a terrible parent. If you're a man, okay, what does it mean to be a man? Well, this is what it means to be masculine. And if you're not doing these things, then you're not masculine. You can't really be the man of the household. This is what it means to be feminine. This is what it means to be masculine. This is what it means to work out in the right way. This is the right kind of body you should have. This is how you should look. And if you don't look this way, then you're not good enough. It's everywhere. Every single aspect of our life, all you have to do is look on social media and somebody will tell you that you're failing at it. And somebody will tell you how it should look. This is what success looks like. This is what a real relationship looks like. As a woman, there's so many messages of this is the kind of person you should go for. And sticking with that example, if you ask a lot of people what they look for, most of it is, well, I look for someone that can provide me this kind of lifestyle. And a lot of it is artificial on both sides, men and women.

Abbie Maroño
And it's often because we feel like we have to perform in our lives. People buy ridiculously expensive designer clothes to show everybody around them that they have money that they don't actually have, but they want people to think that they do. Because if people think that they do, now they're somehow more important. Because this is what I should be doing. There was a real estate agent that I followed and he said the best way to be successful, buy a Lamborghini, because then people will ask you where you got your Lamborghini. And again, it's all this perception of success or perception of what your life looks like, instead of actually how does it feel.

And what happens here is, let's take the example of a man and being masculine. Saying, if you want to be a real man, this is how you should behave, this is what you should like, this is what you should do. If you don't align with those things, that's where shame can come in. Because I really want to be a real man, but for some reason, I can't do these things. Or when I do them, they don't feel like me, so then maybe I'm flawed. Or you have a new mom, and this is how you should parent, but it just doesn't feel right, and you can't seem to do these things, so you feel like you're failing at being a mom. So all of it, when you can't do these things, it makes you feel like you're flawed.

And usually it's these crazy goals, and now the age at which people aren't some so-called millionaires or seemingly look like it is so young. But what we forget too is social media is not real. You're looking at this idolized version of someone's life. You're looking at their body, which is probably photoshopped. You're looking at someone's face, which may have surgery or face tune. And you're looking at someone's life that is completely artificial and misleading in their career, which looks like they're the happiest person in the world, but they go home and they're miserable. Or they're on a yacht every weekend, living the high life, but deep down, they're miserable. You don't know what's behind the scenes. But when we're looking at this, these crazy notions that just cannot be achieved by most of us, almost any of us, and we can't achieve them. So now we feel like we're flawed, but of course we can't achieve them. They are completely out of reach, but we're flooded with them everywhere we look.

So it is no wonder that most of us feel like we're running out of time and we feel like we're not doing enough or whether this is what I should like. I should be a stay-at-home mom or I shouldn't work or I should work. All of these things, of course, we're all struggling with our sense of self because everywhere we look, someone is trying to tell us we are doing it.

Melanie Avalon
wrong. So a study I want to talk about related to that, but I'll quickly comment on the no pun intended, the timepiece, your view of it is how I feel. And yet I went in, I guess, a different direction, which is I saw because I was so or am so concerned about running out of time. I'm like, well, if I live forever, then I guess it gets rid of that fear I have of running out of time. So that's why I think I gravitate towards that so much.

I am super curious if I knew I was gonna live forever, if it would change my, like if I would become more lazy or like if it would seem not as precious. I'm really curious. I don't, because I would imagine, I would like to say that I wouldn't, but I mean, that might just be inevitable if you have unlimited time. I'm just fascinated by the whole concept. Quick question about the social media. So you talked about this study in the book about they looked, I think it was in, was it people looking at athletic social media accounts, I think, or bodybuilders or something? And yeah, and it depended on, like some of them saw it as motivating and some people saw it as, you know, negative and they saw it as competition. So what role does that play? Like, is it possible that a person could engage with social media and they actually are just motivated by it? Absolutely.

Abbie Maroño
And we say comparison is the thief of joy, but it's largely to do with mindset. So a lot of us, when we look at what someone else has, it makes us feel less than. And again, when we're flooded with these notions of this is what we should look like, it makes us feel like we have failed somehow. But if you have that mindset of what I'm seeing probably isn't real, and that mindset of, again, healthy shame of, okay, these emotions are natural. And I am not bad because I behave bad, or I'm not bad because I'm doing these things or haven't done certain things. I can change and grow. And it's called a fixed mindset versus a static mindset, or a growth mindset, sorry, a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. When we have a fixed mindset, it's that I am who I am. And I hate this notion of empowerment as take me as I am or not at all. Because although it's well-meaning, it's grounded in that fixed mindset of this is who I am, this is how I will always be, deal with it, or go away.

And all that means is we think everybody around us should change and we don't need to. I think it's a very immature mindset to take. And it doesn't lead to living a fulfilling life because we don't look inward. If we think, well, I'm perfect as I am, everything's fine. And people are telling you, well, maybe you could do more or less of this, or maybe this isn't healthy. We don't really take that into consideration. We think that we can't. And with this fixed mindset, say we say, okay, well, I'm not smart enough to do this thing. So we don't do it. But then we miss out on the opportunity to learn from it. So then next time we try and do something like it, we are less able to do it. And then we go see, and we use it as confirmation of that perception of I can't do it. But if you had just said, okay, well, maybe I can't do it right now, but maybe I could in the future. So let me give it a go. And that's a growth mindset of who I am now can change and I can be different. I can be better. And then you take opportunities that allow for that understanding and that education and that growth. And then you learn something. So next time you're a little bit more able or say you fail miserably at something. When you have a fixed mindset of this is who I am, you go, yep, yep. Okay, this is who I am. See, when you have a growth mindset, you go, what did this teach me? What am I doing wrong? What could I do better in the future? So when we're looking at social media, and we have this fixed mindset of, I'm not good enough, or this is what I should look like, and I don't, so I'm a failure, of course, comparison is going to steal our joy. When we go in with a growth mindset of, I may not like where I am now, I may be very unhappy, but I won't always be this way. And I have agency, I can change. And when we go with the mindset of what somebody else has does not take away from what I have. And someone else being one way doesn't mean that I can't be that way or I'm somehow less than. And there's a really cheesy quote, but I think it's nice. And it says that flowers are beautiful, but so are sunsets and they look nothing alike.

Abbie Maroño
And again, it's very cheesy, but it's that just because somebody else maybe has a body you want, or looks the way you want, or has a career you want, doesn't mean that what you have is any less amazing. and any less worthy.

But we think that it takes away from us. When we go with that growth mindset of, what can I learn from it? And also, what can I learn from my emotions about it? So when you do feel that feeling of, I feel less than, instead of giving into that feeling, ask yourself, hmm, that's interesting. Be curious about your own emotions and go, okay, well, I feel this way. I wonder why I feel this way. And do a deep dive into, what is it here that I'm comparing? And where do these feelings come from of me? And maybe I need to sit down with myself and look at patterns in my past. And maybe it's something that, for me, I learned that the way I would talk to myself was the way that my mom used to talk to me. And nothing I ever did was good enough. I was never skinny enough. I was never pretty enough. I was never, if I went out and I didn't drink, then I was a prude. If I studied, then I was a prude. If I didn't study, I was a failure. If I did eat a lot, then I was, it was shameful. If I didn't, then it was like, well, why aren't you eating? Have you got something wrong with you? So it didn't really matter what I did. I said, I wanted to go to university. And I remember she had said, when I told her I wanted to do a PhD, she laughed and said, you think you're so much better than us. And when I had years before that said, I was thinking maybe I don't want to go to university at all. She said, oh no, you will go. And made it as if I don't, I'm a failure. So I had all these conflicting notions of, no matter what I did, it was never good enough. And it took me a lot of time to realize that the way I talked to myself was the way that my mom would talk to me. And sometimes those realizations of, I feel really bad in this situation. I wonder why I feel bad. And sometimes we look at other people and we hate them or we really dislike them. And we try and, you know, we're, it's because of this, it's because of this, but often other people hold a mirror to ourself. So often when we're hating on someone else or you see these people making really negative comments on videos about people, anytime you try and bring someone else down, actually says a lot more about you because other people are a mirror to us. So if someone is looking a certain way or looking confident and we don't like that, we try and make it their problem. And actually it's an us problem.

It is an us problem. And we should sit with that and go, hmm, why do I feel negative here? What is going on with me?

Melanie Avalon
So we're actually related to that. How do we distinguish, because you talk in the book about, this was fascinating to me, I didn't know this, but altruistic punishment.

So basically this idea that we will, like we get joy from punishing people, even if we don't benefit from that punishment happening, and that there seems to be this evolutionary reward for punishing people. So how do we, well, first of all, just what are your thoughts on that? And then how do we distinguish between that negative energy that you just mentioned, that we put towards people, how do we distinguish between when it's coming from a place where it's like punishment that needs to happen versus not, like you just described.

Abbie Maroño
That is, again, such a great question. I don't think I've ever been asked that. But it's something I talk a lot about, about revenge. Because the way the brain works is, because we're a cooperative species, when we cooperate with other people, the reward pathway is activated. Now, the reward pathway goes away from the striatum, which is a very deep, deep region, to the prefrontal cortex, which is the newest region of the brain. Meaning that this has been with us for a very, very, very long time. It is deeply ingrained. It is part of our nature as a species. We are cooperative. When we think about someone cooperating with us, that pathway is activated. But when we perceive someone to be behaving unfair, that same network is activated when we think about punishing them. And this, if you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes a lot of sense. If we need to be a social species, one way to make sure that people do not become threats to the group is to punish people that do not engage in cooperative behaviors. So it has worked very well for us to maintain harmonious societies for a long time.

But we live in a modern society now. And now, when we perceive that someone has done us wrong, whether they have done us wrong, or it's just a perceived wrong, because maybe they didn't even mean to do anything, that if we perceive that they have been unjust, the brain will naturally feel pleasure out of punishing them. Think about every movie of someone does something bad to you. So now we're going to make you pay. Look at Taken. The whole premise is, obviously, he gets his daughter back, but it's revenge. It's that feeling of, OK, you hurt me, so let me hurt you back, either just as hard or harder. It is very, very natural. And it is not what we think that it will be when we engage in that behavior. So you see some of the cases that I've worked where you have a parent who has gone through a horrible, horrible experience. Their child has been harmed. And they make it their life's work now to make that other person pay. And when they do, when they say they kill that person or do something to that person, they think that it will make that hurt go away, and it doesn't. It feels great for a minute. And you might feel, yeah, I did the right thing because justice has served. But it doesn't make your pain, the original pain, go away. All it does is make you feel like, OK, there's some kind of justice now. But what does that really do for that feeling? And if you want to live a happy, peaceful life, an important understanding is you can't meet people where they met you. There is this saying of meet people where they meet you. Or matching energy is one that goes around. And I have a very different perspective. And one of the quotes that I live by is, never let anyone get you out of character. So you know who you are, and you decide how you want to treat people. And you decide you want to be kind. So when someone is throwing these horrible things at you, it takes so much willpower not to throw it back. Because the brain wants us to punish them. It wants you to match their energy.

Abbie Maroño
But once you have, you don't feel any better about yourself. Because now you've gone against that sense of self.

So one way that I have found to be really effective is to have things to go back on. Whether you get them from spiritual, religious, or just your own sense of self. And I'm big into philosophy. So I have got a lot of quotes that I live by, because I'm not a religious person. But I think that it's really important that we have some kind of very clear standard that we follow, that we hold ourselves to. Because if you don't know what you believe in, and you don't know exactly what your moral compass is, how do you know to give yourself that talk of, oh, we're kind of getting close to the edge. So I think that it's really important first to sit down with yourself and define your values to yourself. So for me, I have quotes that I live by, and any time you're in a situation that is causing really high negative emotions and emotional intensity, having something to reflect on, having that moment that can just pull you back, is really, really, really helpful.

And I think that's why the Mel, I can't remember her full name, but she wrote the let them theory. Mel Robbins. Yes, Mel Robbins. I think that's why her work has been so successful because it takes this really complicated concept and it gives you a trigger. It gives you a key that you can get back to because if in that moment when you're about to react, you just remind yourself of something, you have that let them, that one moment that gives you a second to pause and say, is this what I want to do? And for me, it's that don't let anyone get you off character. If I feel myself getting riled up, I take that second and I'm like, am I about to get out of character? Am I about to match them? And if I feel that I remove myself from it, but that it takes a lot of time. And there's definitely times, especially when it comes to romantic partners, because we are a species that craves love and bonding. So when these are threatened and when our hearts involved, it can be very difficult to think clearly and logically. So sometimes we act on emotion without thinking and we all have those moments where we slip.

But again, it's that realization of this doesn't mean this is who I am. I can get better. I can change and grow. So my advice on that would be first, how can you follow a standard that you don't know? So it might seem strange to sit down with yourself and say, what do I believe in? What kind of person do I want to be? For people who are highly religious, it's something that they already have. They have this standard of what is acceptable and what is not. And you need to sit down and say, this is what I identify with. And for people that are not religious, you need to sit down and say, okay, well, what are my moral standards? What are the things I want to hold myself to? And I think that that is a really important place to start.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, I love this so much. And it's funny, I haven't read that book, Mel Robbins' book, about the let them theory or let them theory, but I listened to a podcast about it. And like you said, it's shocking how much just that one idea can be so profound, even like for me, I was like, oh, this is amazing. And because of all the reasons that you talked about.

And you mentioned kindness, which I know we were emailing about this a little bit, but you near the end of the book, you have a chapter on kindness and its importance. So what led you, I love that you say in the book that you weren't historically, I think you said you were like neutral, like people wouldn't, people wouldn't like, you know, categorize you as like kind in the past, but you weren't unkind, you weren't neutral. So what led you to understanding the importance of kindness? How is being kind different from being nice? I think that was a big refrain for me was learning just in my life, like the difference between being kind versus being nice. And how can we both, how can it be abundant? And we can use it abundantly, like there's no limit to it. And yet, people might take advantage of us. So maybe we shouldn't be unlimited with it. Just kindness. What are your thoughts?

Abbie Maroño
Yeah. So when I grew up, because I grew up very angry and lost, like I had said, I was always a good kid. Like deep down, I was a good kid. I was just very lost. And I wanted more for myself, but I was in my own little world of suffering. And I didn't really see beyond that.

So I never ever intended to hurt anyone. I would never ever go and try and be mean or try and bring someone down. That's just never been in my nature. My dad is a wonderfully empathetic person. He is so wonderful. So I saw a lot of that. I mean, my mom was always the opposite. So I kind of had both in the home, but me, I was never hateful. I was never mean. I was actually quite shy and feeble. So I kept to myself and I was so focused on, okay, this is what I need to do for my career. Nothing else really mattered. And if people had excuses for why they couldn't do this or couldn't do that, my mindset was, get up, get over it. Nobody cares. I had learned in my life that if you're down, who cares? If you're sad, who cares? If you're struggling, nobody is coming for you. And I learned that all the people that were supposed to love me, when I needed them, they turned their back.

Nobody helped me. Nobody gave me a hand when I was struggling with drugs. My parents didn't help me. They abandoned me. Me and my dad had a lot of work to do on our relationship growing up because he really, he turned his back. My sisters, they wanted to help, but they didn't know what to do. They were young too. So I learned that you just get up and get on with it.

So that's how I saw the world. Oh, you're sad? Get up. That's it. Just get over it. So when people would make excuses for why I couldn't do this or this was hurting or whatever it was, it was like, okay, get up, get on. And I always said that you should never bring your personal life to the office. Whatever you are going through, you leave it at the door and you get on with your work. And then my dad had a stroke and I had buried a lot of trauma in my past, things that I just was not emotionally equipped to deal with. And when my dad had his stroke, it was like everything that I had avoided just came crashing up. It was like I had this box that I had locked shut with all of my traumas and all of the things that I just pretended had never happened to me. And I'd locked it away in the back of my mind. And my dad is my world. He is my absolute rock. And when I almost lost him, that box just came flying open and I could not leave my personal life at the door. For the first time ever, I wasn't able to take that feeling and just shove it in a box like I'd always learned, get up, get on. And people were interacting with me like everything was normal. And it was like, how can you tell me to do this assignment? How can you tell me to do this? Do you not see my life is shattering around me? And it hit me then because I was still engaging with everyone, like everything was fine, but inside it was like, don't you see I'm in pain?

Abbie Maroño
And why someone would make a little comment, my supervisor at the time would make a little snidey comment about my work or say something a little bit harsh. And I had that feeling of, don't you see, I'm barely clinging onto my life right now. And you're going to make this one little comment and it's going to push me over the edge. And it was that realization, we have no idea what people are carrying.

And for such a long time, avoidance and escape with my coping mechanisms, it's like I couldn't see beyond them. And when my world shattered like that, it was just this huge realization of we have all of us have so much that we're burying. It's the quote that what it means to be human is The human condition is suffering. We all suffer. We all struggle. We all have battles that we bury. And even if you understand someone's battle, you do not understand the depth of their suffering. We are all carrying things. And I have that realization of if someone is mean or someone is, say, rude, maybe they have had the worst morning. And maybe they don't know what to do with that emotion, so they're giving it to you. And if you throw it back at them, what does that mean for you? Does it make you feel any better? No, but you could be pushing someone over the edge. And that's why I think acts of kindness are so important, because you really don't know what anybody is dealing with.

And I think that there's this really common thing in relationships to kind of pick at each other and to make little snidey comments at each other. And when I see that, it really hurts to see because little snidey comments may feel harmless. But when someone is struggling internally, a little snidey comment can make them feel to their core so low and so small. And I think that it's something we often really need to remind ourselves, because if someone is really moody to us or mean to us, we naturally want to fight back. But again, it's that moment of I don't know what they're going through. So always giving people the benefit of the doubt is such a life-changing thing of we have a habit of assuming negative intent. Someone says something mean, we assume they meant to be mean. And maybe they did, but maybe it has nothing to do with us. When we assume that maybe people are just struggling, and maybe people are in their own world, and maybe they don't mean anything bad, but they don't know what to do with their feelings, so you're getting the brunt of it. And often when you meet negativity with kindness, it's really disarming. And I remember I had a student who had bought a course that I did. It was an online course. And usually our courses are very, very expensive because we're in the private sector, and they're very interactive. And I wanted something that was accessible to everyone. But obviously, we have to value our time a certain amount. And I couldn't do an interactive course at a cheaper price because I just don't have the time.

Abbie Maroño
And I have to abide by the rules of our company of what we charge, so I didn't have that freedom. But I wanted to do something, so I really pulled my heart to this audio course. And we made it the cheapest course we've ever done, so people could have it. And it was a short course, no interaction because it couldn't be for that price.

And I had a student who had taken the course, and they'd emailed me. They were very, very unhappy because they kept emailing questions. And we had to email back and say, this actually isn't an interactive course. And I paid this much money. I should be able to have this and this. And I explained to them that we charge our time at a certain amount, so we wanted something that was accessible. And they threw back, well, I could put this in chat GBT, and it could write us a better one and things like this. And for me, that hurt because I put so much heart into everything that I do, and I don't use AI for what I do. I think that it's important that as a scientist, we stick to critical thinking. So for me, that really, really hurt.

And what I could have done was hit back and got defensive. But what I did was I emailed him, and I emailed him privately because he was emailing a few of us at the team. I emailed him privately, and I said, I'm really impressed with your determination, and I'm really impressed with your curiosity. It's really clear that you're passionate about what you do. And I can understand for someone who you had this intention that you're going to take this course, and it would give you a certain outcome, and it didn't meet your expectations. So I'm very sorry it didn't meet your expectations. I can imagine that was really disappointing for you. We will give you a full refund.

I do pour my heart and soul into these courses. I explained that we don't use AI because you're paying for our expertise, so we want it to be coming from us, and we want it to be something unique. And I said, so just don't ever lose that curiosity that you have, and that's where your passion comes from. And he took a bit of time to email back and he emailed back and he apologized and thanked us for the refund and said, you know, a lot of people wouldn't, wouldn't fully refund and said, I'm going to take the money and I'm going to put it into buying your books. And a little while later, I have a technique in my book called pants yourself. And it's basically what we've talked about is emotionally panting yourself of sometimes just when someone is throwing negativity at you, instead of throwing it back, pantsing yourself, meaning being vulnerable, saying instead of, you know, let's stop this meeting because you can't behave, make yourself vulnerable. Please can we take a break in this meeting? Because right now I don't think I'm emotionally equipped to deal with this situation or right now I'm struggling to maintain my professionalism or I'm feeling very anxious right now. So could we just take a second, take a breath and then come back. So instead of embarrassing them and making them the problem, you've thrown up on yourself and you've pantsed yourself, you've shown a bit of vulnerability.

Abbie Maroño
And he read that technique and he emailed back after reading the book and said that a lot of the ways that he engages with people he didn't realize it's because he's so passionate and he saw it one way of well, if they don't meet this standard, they should be punished. But actually it's not quite the case and maybe being more cooperative and taking a more cooperative rather than a heavy hand is a better way to approach things.

So he thanked me for the lesson and he actually wrote a really wonderful book review and he is a very passionate student. He is clearly very intelligent and we email back and forth now and he's great. And all it took was he was someone that he may have been going through things he may not have, but it was driven by passion and disappointment, not an intention to hurt me. And if I had taken it as he had negative intent, he wanted to hurt me, then I would have reacted badly. But having that understanding of everybody is in their own worlds and giving them the benefit of the doubt and being kind instead of throwing it back at them, it's disarming. And it ended up a very positive relationship now. Like I said, he's a great student and he's clearly a very dedicated person. And when we do this in every relationship and people that we meet, you may meet someone that barges past you and you think, oh, how rude. You don't know what they're wife is in labor. You just don't know.

So just assuming that people don't have negative intent can be a really powerful tool.

Melanie Avalon
I love that story so much. And that's been my experience with a lot of, well, being in the public sphere and putting content out there, as I'm sure you know, you get a lot of feedback from people. The reframe that I do when I get negative or feedback from people or people who are upset, which thankfully doesn't happen that much, but it does happen. And when it does, I kind of see it as a challenge.

Like, how can I, you know, turn this ship around and extend kindness and see what happens? And I've been shocked actually sometimes with people who you would, like how quickly, and I think I'm having an in real time epiphany right now, because I've been really interested when I will respond a certain way. And sometimes people will just do a complete 180, like real fast. And I think hearing you, you know, explain all of this and tell that story, it's probably because they just had, it was a completely different intention that was there, like it wasn't even about me. And so once they're met with kindness instead, you know, they can, you see where they actually are and they can have that 180. And that's also why I, in my emails, I'm like overwhelming. I like use so many emojis and all the things and it's because kindness is so important to me. And I know people read, especially like texts, people read it in their perspective. So I have to, I feel like the closest I can get to like influencing how people read what I'm saying is I'm like, I just emojify it up with like all the hearts.

Abbie Maroño
It is so funny you say that because one of my main areas of expertise is nonverbal communication. And when we read text, we read it in our mood. So if someone is saying something with a positive intent, but I am in a really bad mood or maybe I'm annoyed at them, I may read it in my tone. But emojis are a form of nonverbal communication. So when you're in text, there's no body language. There's no expression of emotion to tell you what their intention is. When someone puts an emoji, it's a form of nonverbal. So it gives us a sense of what they actually intended. So it's much harder now to assimilate our mood into it. So it is an effective way.

If you're worried about things being misinterpreted, if you change the emoji, you change the entire tone. Of the conversation. And it's funny, when you and I were emailing back and forth, I've been traveling a lot at the minute. And I was just in New Mexico doing an expert witness case. So I was just testifying in court and very high stress. And then there's a lot of travel. And I'm traveling right now for another event. So I was very tired, very stressed. And I had a lot going on in my personal life. And your email was so kind. And it actually did brighten my day.

It has those moments of just small acts of kindness, someone saying something to just give you a little boost. We don't realize how much people carry that. I remember I was at the gym a few months back and there was a girl in there. And she just she had an incredible build where you could see that's a lot of hard work. And she was looking at herself in the mirror and I could see by her expression, she looked sad. And you know, you can tell when someone's looking at themself and judging themself. A lot of the time we think, oh, I can't approach other people. But just giving an act of kindness, as long as it's appropriate, it goes a long way.

And I remember I saw her looking at herself negatively and I went up to her and I said, hey, how long have you been training back? And she was like, oh, a few years. And I said, well, you've got one of the most impressive backs that I've ever seen. And for someone that is what we call a gym rat, someone that goes to the gym a lot and is really focused on, say, bodybuilding. That's a big compliment. And I said to her, you know, you have a really, really impressive back. You know, I'd love to be able to get that kind of build one day. She, you could see in her eyes, she was welling up and she just said, thank you. And I could tell that she needed that. She really was in a space where she wasn't feeling good. And a simple comment, it completely changed her. And I've had that where I have been feeling negative about myself and someone's come up to me and said something really nice. And it's like it just completely shifted everything. So small, simple acts of kindness can really change someone's whole mood and take them out of a negative space. And also one of the reasons why, like you said, when you reflect in a kind way instead of reflecting negatively, they can completely change.

Abbie Maroño
Because when we're in an emotional state, our emotions take over the brain. So emotions like fear and anger and a lot of negative emotions largely stem from the amygdala. And when we are in a heightened emotional state, it takes control.

So our cognitive function that is critical thinking happens in the prefrontal cortex. When we are in an emotional state, the functioning of the prefrontal cortex gets suppressed. So when we're acting out of emotion and then they hit you back with emotion, you stay in that negative emotional state. You stay not critically thinking. When someone hits you back with kindness, it gives you that second to pause and lets your prefrontal cortex come back into action. So you have that moment of, oh, I'm really, it's not about them. So often it gives them the space to breathe to then regulate their own emotions.

Melanie Avalon
I just am obsessed with this and I have so many memories of my own life because you mentioned the idea like the picture in the book of like, can you remember when something happened to you or when you were going through something and somebody just did a small act of kindness and you felt like you could cry, you know, and I've had I can remember like the times of my life that that happened and it's just really, really powerful and also to that point about the the sometimes what people need is that just that one comment or that compliment or that active kindness from somebody. I've been really shocked how, especially with like self image and body image and things like this, which this might tie into a I probably need to do more work with not needing external validation. But I know there have been times when some just a small comment from some terms from somebody has just completely changed my whole perspective and like outlook on the day. And it's wild that that, you know, people's words can have that effect.

And again, I wonder when that happens. I'm like, Oh, I probably should not be putting all this worth in external validation. But I guess I guess it's both and like, both of those can exist. Like kindness can be amazing and incredible and help people and a good thing. And we can also not need external validation or aim for not needing it as much. I'm Yeah, I'm just intrigued by it by how those two overlap.

Abbie Maroño
So there is, it's a line because it is a hard balance of this idea of, I don't care what anybody thinks about me. That is also given as a notion of empowerment, right? So to, I don't need anyone to care about me. I don't need anyone to like me because I like me. And, you know, other people's hate and comments don't affect me at all.

That's just not the case. That's not how we're built. We are a social species such that when we feel physical pain, the effective component of that, say I break a leg, the same brain regions are activated when we feel a social loss. So if I have been abandoned by my friend group or a breakup and there were studies done looking at people in physical pain and then people reflecting on a breakup that was unwanted and the same brain regions are activated, meaning it hurts. It hurts when people reject us. It hurts when we lose our social relationships. It is painful because we are a social species.

So this idea of, I don't care what anybody thinks about me and to be empowered, I need to be bulletproof is rubbish. I say you need to be bouncy, not bulletproof.

And it's because we can let those emotions and you can say, ow, that hurt me. But then you need to learn the emotional regulation skills of being able to get up and being able to reflect on was it said out of malice or was it said to actually help me? Because sometimes comments are said and they're hurtful, but the people are hurtful and they're hurtful and they're hurtful and they're hurtful and they're hurtful. So that's what you need to hear. So having that ability to sit with yourself and say, was this someone online that doesn't know me making this comment, then they didn't have good intentions. They're just as strange as screaming online. And I have never once in my life ever woken up and thought, hmm, I'm going to write a hate comment on someone's picture or under their video. That has never been something that has ever come to me to do. And that mentality of I'm going to purposefully bring someone else down, anybody that has that, anything they have to say, I don't need to hear it because that intention, just to be negative to a strange online, you don't want to help them. You just, you want to shout into the wind because you're angry. So anyone that makes those kinds of comments, I just say to myself, it doesn't matter because I would never want to listen to the opinion of someone that is just actively trying to make me feel negative. So it has nothing to do with me. That hate comment has, is none of my business. And when you take that mentality of who matters and what matters and being able to get back up, that's what's important.

And we are a species that wants to be liked. We do. We want to be liked. And when we say, I don't care what anybody thinks about us, again, it's this, you should be this way. You should be bulletproof. It just makes us feel like we're failing when we do care what people think, but it is not true to care what people think. The issue is when we care so much that when we don't get the validation, it makes us feel worthless.

Abbie Maroño
And then that is a signal to us of you are putting so much focus on your sense of self on other people's perception, which tells you that you don't really know who you are. Because if people are saying really horrible things about you and they're saying, you're like this, you're like this, and this is wrong. You look inwards to see how do I see myself? And if you have a really stable sense of self, you've really done the work to say, okay, what do I value? Am I living in alignment with that? If they're saying these negative things, you can look back on yourself and say, actually, no, I, again, you can't hurt me with me.

You might not like it, but this makes me feel like me. If you don't have that sense of self, if you haven't done the work to find who it is that you are and want to be, when someone tells you you're a horrible person, you're this, you're that, you don't have that barrier to then say, actually, no, that's not how I feel about myself. Actually, no, that's not who I want to be. That's why that inner work is so important. So that when you do have those comments, you can look inward and say, although yes, that hurt to hear, it doesn't make me any less of a person.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I just really appreciate the refreshing honesty that is clearly so important that you support with ourselves. Like just being completely transparent and honest about these things because I'm having flashbacks to growing up because I was always trying to do all the things and I guess it seemed like I didn't care what people thought about me. And my mom would always say to me, Melanie, you just marched to the beat of your own drummer. And it always really bothered me when my mom would say that because I was like, Mom, I don't. I was like, I really care what people think about me. And I had this awareness ever since I was little that even though it seemed like I didn't care what people thought about me and I was independent and strong willed and wanted to do all the things, I intensely cared what people thought about me. And I think it's really interesting. I think it's helpful, like you said, to be aware that just like as a species, we do care. So we can be aware of that and then have it not I guess negatively affect our sense of self and our self-identity and stuff. So yeah, I just I love that.

This has been so, so amazing. And I'm so happy that the emails were helpful for you. I'm just grateful that you're... I mean, literally, Abby, like I said before, before you started recording, traveling is not my skill set. So I'm in awe that you're doing all this and traveling and having this podcast still. So I'm, I'm really, really grateful for your time. And I'm really grateful for everything that you're doing and sharing your story, especially since like you talked about on this show and you talk about in the book how, you know, nervous and scared you were about with your shame and things in your past and you were, you know, terrified of them coming to light. So it's incredible that you've, you know, reached this place where you can literally openly share all of it and use it to inspire other people. Is there anything else you wanted to touch on before we wrap this up? I have one last question for you, but I want to make sure that we got to everything. Well, everything at this moment that you would like to share. Thank you so much.

Abbie Maroño
having me. This has been such a great conversation.

I think my main message is just that it's not about being bulletproof. It's about being bouncy. It is okay for things to hurt and it is okay to feel those negative emotions and it's okay to care what people think about you and still keep doing the thing. If people are being negative about something you're doing, but you feel that it is alignment with yourself, just because it feels bad them not liking it doesn't mean that you're in the wrong. It's about understanding what is it that you stand by and living according to those and learning to be bouncy.

Melanie Avalon
I love it so, so much. So how can people best follow you, you know, get your books, you mentioned courses, things like that. Where should people go?

And I will say, I would love to have you back. I mentioned your other book, The Upper Hand. The subtitle for that is Mastering Persuasion and Getting What You Want with the Science of Social Engineering. So that kind of harkens back to Chris's, is it similar concepts as Chris's Human Hacking book?

Abbie Maroño
It's not. So it is and it isn't. It's rooted in decision making rather than the action. So I created a framework that underpins human decision making because I didn't want to say to people, do X get Y, right? So do this thing and get this outcome because then it doesn't really teach people Y. So I wanted people to have an understanding of why tactics work, not just that they work because what about in a context where you're doing the thing and it's not getting the outcome you wanted it to. Because we often teach this really like basic level understanding. So when things don't work, we don't know why because we don't actually know why they work.

And I compare it to this idea of if we go to a mechanic and we say my engine's broken and we leave the car with them. When we get the car back and we say, you know, the check engine light was on and he go, yep, yep, all fixed. Check engine light is off. And you go, okay, great. What was the problem? And they go, I don't know, but the check engine light is off. And I just smacked around the engine for a bit. So you're all good because the check engine light's off. You wouldn't really feel safe driving that car, but we kind of do that with influence when they say do this and it works. And we go, okay, great. I'll do this and it works. But we don't know why it works. We don't really know the psychology of what's happening underneath. So I wanted to give everybody, and this isn't for scientists. This is for everyone. I wanted to take the root of why we make decisions and teach this framework that people can use to then build their own toolkit. And I give them lots of tools along the way, but I want them to now be able to take that understanding and build their own. So when people come along and try and sell them rubbish and go, no, no, do this and it'll work every time, you can look at that framework and go, actually, that's not in line with how people think. So you can sell that to somebody else and not to me.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I have to read this book. It's very, very excited. Well, thank you. Thank you so, so much. So, oh, how can people best get all of your all of your stuff?

Abbie Maroño
So all of my books on Amazon. So I also have two kids books that are new for kids ages three to six or younger, but up to six. And they are picture books that teach kids to recognize predatory behavior in a way that is a fun story. So it doesn't feel like an intense book, but I do a lot of volunteering with the Innocent Life Foundation and we catch child predators and we work with the Secret Service and FBI to get them put behind bars. And sadly, a lot of it is young kids, very, very young, and they don't understand that something malicious is happening. So I wanted to write books that taught them to recognize predatory behavior without saying, hey, this is a predator. So it's these fun stories of animals interact with each other and these other animals engage in certain ways. And Lily Lyon tells mommy and daddy Lyon, so kids model behavior. So it teaches them to report things back to their parents that the parents can then follow up with. And the proceedings for every sale of those books, 100% of the author profits go to the ILF, they are donated for life.

So all of the work goes into the mission of protecting children. And both my books and then both of these kids books that I wrote can all be found on Amazon. So if you type in Dr. Abby Morono, you'll get all four of my books come up. All of my work, all of my courses, all of my services and media can be found on abbymorono.com. And then on Instagram, I'm Dr. Abby Official.

Melanie Avalon
That is absolutely amazing. And thank you, thank you for sharing that and for that work, that's really powerful.

I'm having flashbacks again to like growing up and how my mom would go about trying to educate that in me. And I think it probably would have been very helpful to have a book like that, that's incredible. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I am so obsessed with the role of mindset. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Abbie Maroño
I am grateful for failure because without all my failings, I wouldn't have my successes.

Melanie Avalon
I love that. I don't think anybody's said that.

Well, thank you so, so much, Dr. Abby. This was so incredible. I am just so grateful for all of the work that you're doing. Can't wait to have you back on the show and just keep doing what you're doing. It's so, so appreciative. I just can't thank you enough.

Abbie Maroño
you so much for having me. And the same goes to you. I am a huge admirer of your work, so thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Well, thank you and safe travels to you for the rest of your trips. Bye.

Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What, When, Why, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guests. And always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com. And always remember, you got this.