The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #329 - Kelsey Packwood

TRANSCRIPT

Kelsey Packwood
It isn't one thing. It's a lot of different things and it's based off of a lot of different traumas and experiences in certain people's lives, but that like there is hope and that you can be treated.

It's an emotional dysregulation disorder. It's a trauma-based disorder. It's a disorder that is caused by extreme invalidation in your life. Everybody who is directly impacted by BPD has at least five to ten other people in their life that are indirectly affected.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this.

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast friends. It was such an honor to have today's conversation with Kelsey Packwood. Borderline personality disorder is so stigmatized and so misunderstood and affects so many people. It affects the people who have it, as well as their friends and family who may not understand their actions. It's affected my own life as well. And I am so grateful to Kelsey for what she's doing. She personally has BPD and has created a hysterical, moving, inspirational TV pilot called Borderline. And it premieres next week on Thanksgiving.

Definitely, definitely watch it. It's going to be on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, all the places. The handle to follow is Borderline TV series. So definitely follow it now and definitely watch it. I've watched it so many times. And like we talk about in today's episode, I was honestly shocked at how eerily similar some of the things that happened and things that she says are to what I've experienced from people with BPD. And it truly is just so supportive and eye opening and entertaining. I cannot recommend it enough.

And in today's conversation, we dive deep into all the things. We talk about the actual criteria for BPD, because like I said, it is massively misunderstood. It's actually nine very specific criteria. And you only have to have five of them to qualify. That means there are over 200 different potential combinations for how it can manifest. We talk about what's at the root of BPD, including the fear of abandonment and how people with BPD can push others away. We talk about what to do with red flags, as in should you tolerate red flags? Should you run away? If you sense red flags, what should you do? We talk about how to support those with BPD and to heal yourself emotionally. In particular, we talk about the need for validation and the role of trauma and so much more. Again, friends, go watch Borderline now, or if it's not out yet next week, share it with your friends and family.

It is not only entertaining, but so-so eye opening. The show notes for today's episode will be at melonyavalon.com slash Borderline. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about.

So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group. I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love.

Melanie Avalon
And then check out my Instagram. Find the Friday announcement post. And again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things.

As a brief reminder, follow Borderline TV series on all the socials and go watch the pilot when it comes out on Thanksgiving. Not only will you be truly entertained, but it can truly have a profoundly eye opening effect on your life. And now without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with my dear friend, Kelsey Packwood. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. So here's the backstory on today's conversation. A few months ago, earlier this year, I think it was this year, I aired an incredible episode with Blaise Agie. He came on the show for his book, I Hate Myself, which was actually all about the concept of self-hatred, which he thinks should be a potential diagnosis for mental health. In any case, I had him on the show for that book. He is a wonder of a human being. He's really a really profound figure in the world of mental health and wellness, especially when it comes to things like DBT therapy, as well as BPD, Borderline Personality Disorder, and so many other things. And he's at Harvard. And after having him on the show, we became actually really good friends. So shout out to Blaise. He's amazing. And he introduced me to his friend, the incredible woman I'm here with today, Kelsey Packwood, because the reason he introduced her to me was when I read his book, and I know this is a very meandering intro, but when I read his book, like I said, the book was about self-hatred, but it had a section on it that was a smaller section, but it was talking about Borderline Personality Disorder, and he was talking about whether or not it overlaps with characteristics of self-hatred. But friends, that was actually the first time that I had read the criteria for BPD, and what's really interesting is the idea of BPD in my head to me was a very vague and scary diagnosis, and I think I just made a lot of assumptions about it. Basically, I thought if you have BPD, it was manifested as one certain type of personality that I was envisioning in my head, and that it was a very scary diagnosis. When I read his book and actually read the criteria, I had a complete paradigm shift because I was like, oh, okay, it's not exactly what I thought. It actually requires having five of nine criteria, which means it can actually manifest in 256 different combinations, which can look like 256 different things, essentially. We'll talk about the criteria in the show, but this long meandering intro is for me to say I had a huge paradigm shift in epiphany about BPD. I realized I was able to look at my life and people that I knew, and it provided a really nice clarity for, I think, what I've experienced with some people. And so bringing this all back to Kelsey, Valais was insistent that I meet Kelsey because she's an actress and a writer, and she was producing her self-written, self-directed, self-produced, and she stars in it, pilot called Borderline, all about bringing awareness to BPD,

Melanie Avalon
what it looks like. And it's a dramedy, it's funny, but it's also a drama and it's sad and it's motivational and it's inspirational. And it really brings, I think, a sense of humanity to this mental condition that a lot of people have and just is really, really inspiring and hopeful for so many people, and it's funny. So it better become a full-time TV series because I'm going to be the first person watching it all the time.

And since then, I also met Kelsey and we've gotten to know each other and she's absolutely incredible. She actually was diagnosed with BPD herself. So the pilot is based around her own journey and how she's navigated that and how she's come through it and how she is today. So Kelsey, that was a long intro, but thank you so, so much for being here.

Kelsey Packwood
you for having me and that is a very nice intro and I feel like you explained BPD very well for the way that some people see it versus the way that you see it once you get a little more information about it. So thank you for that.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just so excited to talk about this because I know how blind I was when it comes to this criteria and there was like a few things in my head where I had seen instances made pretty public about people with BPD and I just assumed that's what it was. I remember when they were saying like Amber Heard from the Johnny Depp trial had it and then my mom actually, she doesn't have it, but her therapist apparently at one point, he told her that if she did have it, he wouldn't treat her because it was untreatable as a condition, which is not a good message to put out there to anybody and obviously not true.

I told Blaze about that. So after my mom told me that, I told Blaze and I was like, can you talk my mom off the ledge because she's been told this by somebody in the past and like hasn't forgotten it.

Kelsey Packwood
Oh, yeah. That's very common, honestly, in the world of BPD. We're still a really long ways away from getting this disorder de-stigmatized.

There's a lot of therapists who are very scared of Borderline. When you call it a scary diagnosis, it is a scary diagnosis. Whether you are one of the combinations that is more quiet BPD versus full-blown BPD, it is scary. It was scary when I got diagnosed. So that's part of the work that I'm doing, and that's part of the hope, and that's part of the mission, you know, is to get people to realize that it isn't one thing. It's a lot of different things, and it's based off of a lot of different traumas and experiences in certain people's lives, but that, like, there is hope and that you can be treated. You can't take medication for it, but you can be treated.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and like I said, and we'll talk about this, you're an excellent, incredible case study of that because you basically self-treated yourself.

Kelsey Packwood
I mean, well, I'm still working on myself every day and just started going to therapy again. And right now I'm going to a trauma therapist, which I think best suits what I've gone through.

But yeah, like this movie was in a way, like very therapeutic for me. This pilot film that I made was my version of therapy when I couldn't afford it myself. I did all the research I possibly could so that I could portray it on screen in a way that made sense to me and could maybe help me make sense to a lot of other people.

Melanie Avalon
people. So I have so many questions and I'm so excited to dive into it.

I'm just going to start it off to start with the actual information. So listeners, I'm going to tell you the nine criteria. And so again, in order to be officially diagnosed, according to the DSM with Borderline, you need five of these. So I think hearing this, you'll realize how this could just manifest in so many different presentations depending on which combination you have. So, and I'm actually reading from Belize's book because this is where I read it the first time. So the first criteria is people with BPD are terrified that they will be abandoned by the people most important to them. And this fear exists whether the threat of abandonment is real or not. Number, and then there's more information about it, but number two, people with BPD experience intense and unstable relationships that swing between idolizing other people. So for example, you know, believing that the person is perfect on some occasions, and then on the other occasion devaluing them and not seeing any good in them at all. And this concept is actually explained by something known as splitting, which comes from psychodynamic theory, which is the type of theory that was made famous by Freud. And then number three is people with BPD can experience a marked, unstable, persistently fluctuating sense of self or even a lack of any solid sense of self at all. They may recognize that their goals, employment dreams, religious beliefs, academic aspirations, gender identity, or sexual preferences, and so on are in a state of constant flux. And then number four, people with BPD can experience episodes of impulsive and potentially risky behaviors. So this could include gambling, spending sprees, reckless driving, unprotected or dangerous sex with multiple partners, binge eating and purging, drug misuses. And then number five, suicidal behavior and self-injuring behavior, such as cutting are both a hallmark of BPD. Number six, people with BPD can often feel as if they are on an emotional roller coaster and experience frequent and intense mood episodes. And these can be triggered by interactions with other people. And then number seven, people with BPD can describe feeling empty or disconnected or lonely much of the time. Number eight, people with BPD can often experience excessive and intense anger. They can appear to rapidly lose their temper as in extreme situations, which can lead to destructions of property and even physical fights or verbal attacks. And number nine, so the last one, people with BPD, particularly if they have experienced the trauma of physical, sexual or emotional abuse, often experience disassociation, which is the sense of not feeling real or feeling that the rest of the world is not real. And so to like triple quadruple emphasize, I just read nine different things. You need five to have the official criteria, and it could be any five. So again, this could manifest a lot of different ways.

Melanie Avalon
And I can see how, I mean, I can really see with that sort of criteria, how the stigma has come about, because you probably see, you know, the worst case scenarios of it. And it's just kind of vague and broad.

But in any case, so so many questions for you. One, with your personal journey, and your moment of being diagnosed, because in the pilot, which is based off of your real life, the way it opens is you're talking with your therapist on the day that she's essentially diagnosing you with borderline personality disorder. And is that how it happened in real life? Or how did you have this epiphany for yourself?

Kelsey Packwood
So that is semi fictionalized. I actually found out that I had BPD because someone in my life had told me, I had been telling them like, something is wrong, something is wrong. And I had gone to all these different therapists my whole life. And like, I was in my late 20s, and my mental health was just declining. And I was so fearful all the time. And I didn't think I had anything else. Like I didn't think I had bipolar, I didn't think I had none of the other criterias had ever matched with what I was going through. And so I thought I was talking to this person and they said, I think I know what's wrong with you. You have borderline personality disorder. And so, you know, like some people would say like, Oh, somebody else diagnosing you could be like, not a great thing. For me, I was so grateful.

Maybe like in that moment, they weren't diagnosing three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. And so I was like, Oh my God, this is me. And it was such a clear moment of clarity. And I also then was like, Okay, now I have to actually seek out a formal diagnosis.

So the way that I portrayed it in the pilot is interesting, because yeah, you can kind of think that maybe in that moment, she's getting diagnosed for the first time. But in my personal life, I already had a feeling. So I was firming. So you can look at it both ways if you want to as an audience member.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I really wonder how common the response that you had is for people who might be told this.

Kelsey Packwood
A lot of people are so scared of the diagnosis. They don't want to say that they want it. So I mean, I felt a sense of relief.

And BPD is a part of cluster B personality disorders. So there's other personality disorders. Some other personality disorders people don't want to go and get help. They're less likely to come in to seek therapy. With BPD, you're more likely to come in and seek therapy because you're in so much emotional pain that you just can't handle it anymore. So I don't know. I think it's a mix at this point because of the stigma.

But my goal is to break the stigma. If we break the stigma and people realize that it isn't that one thing that everybody thinks it is, this big monstrous, scary, scary word, like borderline, you know, when they realize that it's actually, like the people in the hospitals that they're treating, they're the ones who are, you know, self-injuring and really, really suffering in ways where they need psychiatric treatment. But there's a lot of people who are kind of coasting in their own personal lives, dealing with BPD, but don't have the means to go in. Maybe they're not injuring themselves. So they're just kind of like out there and they may or may not be diagnosed. If you're going to present it in a way that's very negative, they're not going to want to accept that diagnosis. But if you can kind of show it for what it really is, which is it's an emotional dysregulation disorder. It's a trauma-based disorder. It's a disorder that is caused by extreme invalidation in your life. Then all of those things start making sense.

And then the people in your life, if they do their research, can kind of meet you where you're at because I think that that's what's missing right now is people with BPD aren't really getting treated in the ways that help them. They're getting, they push people away. And, you know, I push people away. I have, like I know people who have pushed people away. And instead of kind of getting to a better like baseline, you kind of have now isolated yourself. But I think that if we can just work towards more education, then maybe people will hear it and then own it. And then, okay, let me do my research and go get some help.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so many things here. I'm actually really curious.

I'm really interested in like language and words and names. I wonder how much like the naming of it, like borderline, how much of that actually feeds into the stigma of it. I don't know because I actually don't know the history of when, like, I don't know when it became so stigmatized. I don't know if you know.

Kelsey Packwood
I think that, and forgive me if I get anything wrong, but I've been doing my research, I think that before it was borderline, you know, back in the day, like when many different illnesses like didn't quite exist in the DSM yet, you know, whether that's physical illnesses or mental illnesses in the DSM, I feel like people called it hysteria or this or that, you know, were kind of labeled as you're just a crazy person and I hate to use that word, but I know that that word is used. And so I think that the more that they did research and, you know, John Venderson introduced borderline personality disorder into the DSM in the 80s, then that it was, you know, finally identified as being on the border of reality and psychosis, which again, now that we've done more research, I actually don't think that that's quite accurate anymore. I think that people with BPD don't quite go, it's not exactly the correct way to describe it as being on the border of reality and psychosis, but they've also wanted to change the name, I believe, to emotional dysregulation disorder. That is a controversial thing.

It's also in the UK, I believe it is called EDD and they're trying to get that to change, but like, I don't think that that's going to happen. And so correct me if I'm wrong, but the name, yes, the name has been something that kind of makes it seem scarier than it sometimes is. Not saying that it isn't a scary thing that people have to go through, whether you have it or whether you're dealing with somebody who is in crisis, I know that they've kind of questioned whether or not they should change the name of it.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wow. Okay.

I did not know that. Yeah. Because like the word borderline, at least to me, it evokes, like kind of like dark, scary images of like on the edge, like you were saying, like on the edge of psychosis and just like an extreme feeling to it compared to something like emotional dysregulation disorder, which we all struggle with emotion.

Kelsey Packwood
And that's why it's kind of hard to pick one word because what encompasses it, you know, do you want it to sound scary or do you want it to sound more like academic and factual? But again, the problem with the emotional dysregulation disorder is that it's not the full picture of what borderline is. So I don't know, I think the name is probably going to stay.

You know, regardless, I think that the main thing is really just educating the public about more specifics about BPD and introducing people to the public that have borderline that are not like everybody else that you've seen, you know, like, I mean, there's just going to be so many different kinds of people who have it. And, you know, the other interesting thing about BPD is that class doesn't exempt you from borderline. So if you're in a higher class or a lower class, there's people who are suffering of all financial situations, whether they have all the money in the world or whether they have nothing to their name, your mental health, it's all in us, it's our minds. Nobody is exempt from this disorder.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And is it something that, I mean, because you're mentioning the role of trauma, which you know, could happen at any point in a person's life.

So do you think most people have it, like, since they're born, or can it develop later? Like, could you get like late onset?

Kelsey Packwood
I know that I have had it since I can speak for myself at least and say that I have had this since I was maybe five, six, seven years old. And the interesting thing about that piece of information is that in my movie and my pilot, I intertwine videos of me as five at five years old. And so you actually do see me real me at five, you know, I put like certain clips in there that like, you know, I have much more footage than what I put in the movie, but I wanted to show like the difference between like a young girl and a young adult woman and just showing that journey because like I am that little girl who like in the videos, I seem very happy and, and full of life. But I was exhibiting signs of BPD very early on.

And I do know that like, you know, there's a role of that genetics play into borderline personality disorder diagnoses, there's a role of environmental factors, you know, blaze had written a book, BPD and adolescents that explored, you could potentially diagnose borderline personality disorder at a younger age and catch the problem sooner so that it didn't develop into something much more harmful later. And I believe that 100% if I had gotten the treatment that I had needed when I was in my teens, I think that I would, I would probably have, you know, suffered less. It also is if BPD runs in the family, because it plays a role in genetics, then, you know, you're going to be born a hyper, hypersensitive person. So if you're already a hypersensitive person, you go through trauma, the thing that's really going to cause the BPD is if you're going through that trauma, and then you are being invalidated in your environment. So invalidation is key here, like the people who are going through this trauma, but aren't allowed to put in this flux of like, Oh, my gosh, like, I'm so sad, but I'm not allowed to feel that, okay, so I feel guilty for feeling sad, but wait, but I do feel sad, and I should be able to, why do other people like, are they allowed to feel their feelings, but I'm not is it because my feelings are hard and, and scary and like, emotional, whereas other people's feelings are very neutral. So like, they're validated, but I'm not and that doesn't seem quite fair.

And so, you know, I can go off on this like tangent of, of like, why being invalidated in a moment is so like, scary and hard, because it just makes you think about all these things. Like, why can't I feel if this is how I'm feeling, how are you telling me I can't feel that thing. And so like, a person can go through so much and like be validated and end up like, you know, without BPD, and then a person can go through so much and be valid, invalidated. And that's when you're going to find something like borderline personality to sort of developing. And then because they don't want to diagnose people too early, they think that teens who are angsty will grow out of their behaviors.

Kelsey Packwood
And so they don't want to diagnose people with BPD until they're in their, you know, late 20s, early 20s. And that's when you find a bunch of adults who are, you know, just, you know, getting on their feet, getting out of the house, getting out of college, and they're drowning in their life.

They're having a really hard time finding a job, keeping a job, like living with roommates, you know, they're no contact with their family or whatnot. And how do you sustain a life when you're on your own, when you're so young, and in this economy, I mean, how are you going to survive and thrive if you don't know how to regulate your emotions. So then you sit at home and do the things that make you comforted, like scrolling on your phone, which maybe actually causes more pain. And, you know, it's just kind of this dilemma that could have been, you know, handled a little earlier in life, so that these people could have been given the tools to be set up for success in this adult, in their adult life.

Melanie Avalon
If I haven't done any episodes really on BPD with the exception of I had Grace Valentine on the show, a model and they will at the time thought they had BPD and so we talked a little bit about their journey. I've done a lot of episodes on trauma and I do remember from one of them learning about how whether or not trauma became PTSD, for example, really dependent on how much support you experienced right after the event, which goes hand in hand with validation.

So you know, like when it happens, how, how are people responding to that happening and how are they treating you with it seems to be like very key, basically what you just said with them, whether or not it becomes permanent, you know, or semi permanent as far as like PTSD or, you know, BPD or something.

Kelsey Packwood
or CPTSD complex post-traumatic stress. You know, that's a different version of it too.

Melanie Avalon
That's really tricky too about the about, you know, not wanting to diagnose emotional teens. That's a catch-22.

What do you think a solution is there? Just providing like general mental help and wellness therapy to teens?

Kelsey Packwood
Well, it's interesting because if you look on TikTok, there's a BPD talk where like basically it has an insane amount of hashtags, like more than anxiety and depression by a lot. I'm talking in the billions, I think. This is what I've been told is that people are self-diagnosing on TikTok because because people aren't able to go and get treatment the way that they need it. But they're going to social media to search these things and people are making videos explaining what it is, teaching people about what it is, educating people about what it is. And it's hard because you have to be careful to make sure that accurate information is being spread because you don't want to spread misinformation.

But yeah, I think that we're kind of in this moment right now because everybody's going through so much with everything that's changing in our world, our country, with technology. I feel like this is kind of like a pivotal moment for mental health because we have access to YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. And these are things that now, okay, well, you can go and find research. You can go and find these things like for yourself, whereas before you had to find a book or you had to go see a therapist or you had to go through the system of getting diagnosed and stuff. So I think that the more that people know what borderline personality disorder is, because I can't tell you how many times I tell somebody that I have BPD and they're like, oh, you have bipolar. And then I go, no, I have I have borderline. And then they go, oh, yeah, so your bipolar disorder. And I said, no, it's borderline personality disorder. And I have to correct them. And they still just goes right over their head. So I feel like when we get the words out there more, when people actually hear borderline personality disorder and go, oh, okay, I have a better understanding of what that is, then maybe just maybe that will be like the beginning of when people realize that, like, this isn't just something that magically appears when you graduate from high school, like, OK, I'm an adult now, like I want borderline personality disorder. No, like this has been building in your life. I know it's controversial. I know a lot of therapists and doctors do not like the researchers and clinicians, they don't agree that these things should be treated earlier. But I have to as a person who has BPD, I have to say, I know for a fact that I had it early. And if I could have gotten that help, like it would have it would have changed my life. You know, that being said, would I have changed anything up until now? I guess I wouldn't have because now I'm here. You know, I have made my my pilot. You know, I I've I've really, really dug deep into my own research and understanding, which I'm very grateful for. So, you know, everything happens for a reason, but doesn't mean that countless people have to suffer. And not just the people who have it, but the families, the parents, the the loved ones, the sisters, the friends, the the partners, the fiancees, the husbands, the wives, like they're suffering, too.

Kelsey Packwood
So, you know, this is this is important. I mean, everybody who is directly impacted by BPD has at least five to 10 other people in their life that are indirectly affected.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm so so excited and we've talked a lot about this like you and I but it's actually pretty shocking to me that this topic hasn't become I know you're talking about how it's like the hashtags on TikTok and social media and such but like hasn't really manifested in something like what you're doing so I think the timing is perfect and will help so many people and I just know for me watching your pilot which by the way friends so it will be premiering 11 27 on Thanksgiving so we'll put links to all of that in the show notes and the social media handle for it is Borderline TV series but I will just say it's well first of all I mentioned that it's comedic and drama and emotions and all the things but for me watching it it was really it was honestly really eerie because some of the things you say and things you do in the pilot could be exact phrases from somebody a loved one of mine that is experiencing this as well and it was really interesting to see you know because like I said this manifests in so many different ways and uniquely in different people and still these commonalities are kind of it was just really actually really shocking to me

Kelsey Packwood
You know what's funny is that I've been told that by so many people who have watched that I've gotten that exact text message that you sent to your parents. My mom has sent that exact text message to me.

I've said those exact words. It's so interesting that you say that because I've gotten that before. And that's why it's like, wow, this is a universal thing. This is such an important thing.

Melanie Avalon
I cannot even express how eerie it was. I was like, whoa, like that's like word for word what I've experienced.

So yeah, and so the, and I'm not going to give away any of the plot because people can check it out. But the general overview is you on the day that you're essentially diagnosed with your therapist and you're in a fight with your parents about money issues. And then you go on a date with somebody on a dating app. And it's, I mean, it's really funny, but then it goes into more of your personal journey and your emotional health and you know, what you experience at the end with your loneliness and such. So the entirety of it, how much of it is based on real life events that happen with you? Like how close to your life is it?

Kelsey Packwood
It's pretty dang close. I mean, you know, I took some liberties and, you know, the date feels like kind of like an amalgamation of all the different guys I did, like, you know, but it's pretty close because I really wanted to be honest.

I really wanted to tell a story that I don't think that has been told in a way like this, where I could watch it so that I could feel some sort of validation of what I was going through. I really, I don't meet a lot of people who understand what I'm going through. I don't meet a lot of people who have BPD. I don't meet a lot of people who have had the childhood that I had where I went back and forth between my mom and my dad's house in a custody battle for 10 and a half years and they broke up before I was born. So I never had that nuclear family. Yeah, it's really a, it's a true story. And obviously like there's some things that didn't actually happen exactly like that, but for the most part when it comes to the relationship with my parents and with a therapist and just my own alone moments where I'm just overcome with emotion by myself. So scared, so hopeless, and then pulling myself out of that to keep going, that's, it's a real depiction of what I've been going through.

Melanie Avalon
I think one of my favorite parts or one of my favorite aspects of it is we see your internal struggle and what you're going through. We read your texts and everything, but then we also see how you're presenting to this date guide that you're meeting for the first time.

And so we get to see both your perspective and what he's saying, which you're not vocally telling him all of your drama. And you're acting mostly normal except going back and forth to the bathroom a lot, but then everything that happens after that. So it's a really good picture of how I think people who don't have BPD interact with people who do and can have a misunderstanding, slightly jarring experience where nobody wins, really. And it is because of this lack of awareness and inability to talk about things. At least that's my take on it, my read on it.

Kelsey Packwood
Totally, I really like the way you put that. I mean, nobody wins. And you know, when I wrote it, I really wanted that perspective of, you know, this is what I'm going through, but this is also another person who's experiencing this. And what is that like for that person who doesn't have it and doesn't know what I'm going through? You know, I've been told like, you know, like maybe the date seems too long. And I'm like, well, it's purposeful. I really want you to see like what it's like from both sides. And then also, you know, if you really pay attention to the story and to the characters that come in and out, I mean, it also, what I've been trying to show is, it's nobody's fault, not Kelsey's fault. It's not the date's fault. It's not her mom and her dad's fault. And it's not the therapist's fault. It just is, is what it is.

So like, what do you do when you go from there? And then not only that, what would you do if you were in Kelsey's shoes? That's the question I really want to ask for the audience to think of is what would you do if you don't have BPD and haven't had to struggle, but you went through a really, really hard day, but things just never seemed to get easier. And then you went through another hard day. Then you went through another hard day. And then 30 years later, you're just at your limit and you're really struggling to function because you can't seem to catch a break and you don't know how to regulate yourself. So what would you do if you got to that point?

Because everybody could, there's no guarantee that everyone's life, even if somebody has like, their life is just, they've had a really good life. Not a lot of things have happened that have caused them a lot of suffering or pain. There's no guarantee that that person isn't then gonna go through something the next day. Anything can happen to anybody at any point, which is why you really need to have empathy for everyone.

So what would you do if you had to go through that? Because a lot of people don't even know what I'm going through, but then like, okay, well, here's a visual representation of what I'm going through. What would you do? Could you put yourself in my shoes? Would you have handled it any better, any worse? You can't say what you would do. And so therefore you have to give grace to people who are suffering with their mental health because it's just, it's their reality.

They can't change what has happened in the past. And the only thing that they can change is how they take care of themselves going forward. But sometimes you run out of steam and you really don't believe that you have any more to give. Yeah, it's a very interesting dynamic. I mean, she's going through the whole episode trying to get people not to leave her. She doesn't want to be alone, but she can't seem to find anybody who can spend time with her. I mean, I guess her mom tries, but her parents aren't there physically. So there's a lot of fear in being alone. What would you do if you just were just chronically alone? I mean, it takes a toll on someone.

Melanie Avalon
on the flip side, if there's a person like your character with BPD and then family, friends, people who have been there for a long time, what are your thoughts on what they would do compared to like this guy you're going on a date with who you haven't met before? This is just a first date.

A person who's never met you and gets a clue that something is going on here. Do people fault or guilt them for seeing quote red flags right at the beginning and wanting to leave compared to like family who's known you? I don't know if I'm like setting this up correctly. It's kind of a tricky question because like should the people leave at the red flags if they don't know you yet and you're still working on yourself and it might just lead to a lot of pain for them at this point.

Kelsey Packwood
And as they should do whatever they should do for themselves, that would make them happy, right? Like the person who doesn't know the person with BPD who's kind of just coming in versus like a person who's been there for a very long time, everybody should do, the family member, the loved one, or the new person should do whatever makes them like happiest and safest and feel the best. And in a moment of deep emotion, you're gonna feel like, well, I wish that people would just stay and pick me and whatever. But like at the same time, they have to do what they have to do.

Like, you know, what I've noticed is that I've actually found and this is also manifested in the pilot, that strangers have been nicer to me than the people that have known me my whole life. You know, so even though like a new person might see a red flag and be like, I don't wanna deal with this, you know, at a certain point, family members do the same, you know, or friends or coworkers or love interests, like they do the same, you know, it's much more of a question of when you are interacting with these people and they're invalidating you, like instead of like really needing that person to stick around, like at the first sense of invalidation or of them not understanding you or if they're judging you, like, are you willing to walk away? You know, are you willing to have a better gauge of who is good for you? Because that's something with BPD where we lose our sense of self. So we don't think that we are worth anything or we kind of just start liking what everybody else likes because we don't want them to abandon us. So we just try to be easy and like what they like and fit in when we're betraying ourselves constantly. So I think the question that like, like once that person does decide to leave or like whether they're close to you or new in your life, like then the question after that is, okay, so when you interact with the next person, what are you gonna look out for so that you aren't putting all of your eggs in a basket that might not even be good for you. It might not be what you need or want. And how can you start deciphering who is right for you when you're bringing new people into your life or not? Because when you bring new people into your life who are not judgmental, who are educated on this topic, who don't have that 10 year baggage of history with you and the straw that broke the camel's back has them out the door. When you meet the right kinds of people, then they finally see you for who you really are. And that's what you should be looking out for. So like, sure, like if a person sees a red flag and doesn't wanna deal with it, okay, okay. What are you gonna do then so that you don't betray yourself? So that the next time you meet somebody who just really doesn't wanna deal with you because you're being vulnerable and honest and true about who you are, you're sharing, you're not holding back, you're not masking, you don't wanna pretend anymore, you can't do that to yourself. You just gotta look for the right kinds of people. And that's a gut thing, that's an intuition thing.

Melanie Avalon
I love that. I love that.

So basically, you know, the red flags can be there, they can exist. And at the same time, certain, even with strangers, certain people, it just might not be beneficial for them to engage at that time at all, like they might need to just walk away compared to others who

Kelsey Packwood
they don't they don't speak the same language as you know knows why and and you know if if you're a red flag to them then okay like you don't like you're not the same kind of person i guess but you know like maybe that's a red flag to you that you're not being accepted as you are and you don't need to pretend to be something else it actually causes you more pain and and makes this whole thing like drag out this this trauma drag out when you actually could just kind of surround yourself with the people who aren't looking for red flags they're looking for human beings who they can connect with you know and you know not and you know maybe that person who saw a red flag maybe they come back later because they realize you know like i didn't know at the time that i processed and like i do appreciate you i do want to be around you you know nothing is set in stone but in the current moment when it's happening because when we're suffering in our current moment like when we're really going through it with bpd it's so real and so like in those moments like you got to learn how to handle those moments like they can feel like an eternity even if it's just like a couple hours a couple minutes a couple days you just got to focus how to handle that moment which is if that person leaves and abandons okay i mean then you can't change that and you're going to be going through all this pain so how are you going to pick yourself up out of that pain and how are you going to stop losing faith that every person is going to see you that way you need to still have some faith that you're going to meet good people you know because you're going to meet people who do understand you you just need to have a better gauge of of your own instincts your own gut feeling of is this person making do i feel like i need to mold myself into something else to fit in so that they stick around or can i just be myself and if that means that they don't want to be around anymore that's okay let's go find the people who i don't have to mold myself so that i can go and have fun and that they're having fun

Melanie Avalon
too. I love this.

Yeah, so I feel like a lot of the issues, at least for the social relationships, are in the masks and the facades and the, you know, not presenting your authentic self. The thing, so something I've been struggling with a lot, you've mentioned the word abandonment a lot throughout this interview. And for a person in my life with BPD who has a very, very severe fear of abandonment, they will, and this is interesting because at the very beginning of this interview, you were talking about you pushing people, how you like historically would push people away. So this person will, because of their fear of abandonment, preemptively, and I'm not putting, I'm not like just diagnosing this, like this person has told me they do this. They will preemptively push people away if they sense any sort of abandonment, which may or may not even be real, but they interpret it as a sign of abandonment or a sign of that person maybe leaving. So before that person can, quote, leave them, they will push them away. And experiencing that has been, it's, I don't, I just don't know what to do because you want to respect boundaries and you want to respect people, you know, not wanting to engage with certain people. But when it's based on an abandonment that's not actually happening, like you're not trying to abandon them, but things get interpreted that way and then you get pushed out, it's hard.

Like I don't, it's like, I don't know, I don't know what to do here. It's like, how do I best support? So when you have had those situations, when you mentioned earlier, pushing people away and out of your life and the sphere of abandonment, what advice would you give for people going through that and also for people on the other side being pushed away?

Kelsey Packwood
Right. And, you know, again, I can speak for myself, and, you know, I hope to one day get my master's in psychology, and then I'll have more knowledge in this. So, like, any advice I give is purely just, like, from my own perspective, and, like, I can't, like, you know, give any, like, medical advice. But I think it really stems from yourself, you know?

And so, like, I know it's hard, because if you're the person who's wanting to be there for somebody going through it, but they're pushing you away because they're afraid of being abandoned, like, I don't know what you could do besides, like, just reach out to them in the normal way that you do. I mean, if you just don't change anything, and, like, you still, like, reach out to them and let them know you're thinking of them, like, on a, as often as you normally would, I think that, like, the work that needs to be done with myself, like, the work that I did on myself, was that I really just worked through that fear of, like, well, what is going to actually happen if that person does leave my life? Like, what is actually going to happen if I am alone? It was so scary, the thought of it. And this is a huge thing with BPD is abandonment. But then I did, like, lose relationships. I did lose friends. I did lose family members who, you know, like, we want no contact, whether it was their choice or my choice, you know? Once I finally really had the time to really kind of sit with myself, I could really finally, like, understand, like, that fear of abandonment and kind of transform it into something that instead of it creating this very deep pain, that it actually pushed me to get to know myself better and pushed me to, to want to be alone, to like being alone. I think I've gotten to the point now where I'm shocked. I really like my alone time.

And I didn't know that I needed it as much as I did because I've learned how to become so independent and, like, on my own schedule. And, like, you know, I do things the way I want to do things. So it's like, you know, I go to bed when I want to go to bed. I eat what I want to eat. I don't have to deal with everybody anymore, you know? So when I was, like, really learning, because, you know, a lot of people who don't have having the feelings of abandonment. So I was like, okay, what would it be like to get to that point where I don't freak out when these relationships, like, when maybe I don't hear from somebody for a really long time, or when I go through a breakup, or I just, I really paid attention to what made me happy. And then it didn't matter. I prioritized my, my thoughts, my feelings, my hobbies, my, what I liked, my comfort. And once I started prioritizing myself and, like, you know, like, for example, like, if somebody invites me out to birthday dinner, and I just can't make it, like, and I'm not going to push myself to do it, and I'm not going to spend the extra money to do it.

Kelsey Packwood
I just let go of that idea that, like, okay, if I don't show up to every birthday dinner, or if I don't show up to every little thing that I'm invited to, I might not get invited anymore. And you know what, that's okay, because I need that time to myself.

And, you know, when I've invited people to certain things, and they didn't show up, it's like, okay, well, they didn't have to, I don't have to. But I do want to enjoy my life, and I do want to enjoy my time. So, abandonment for me shifted when I really started loving myself, focusing on what made me happy, and getting into my own routine, doing things every day that were, like, that I could notice that made me feel comfort. And then I didn't feel so scared anymore of being alone. Then I craved it, and that was a huge shift for me. And that happened a couple years ago, maybe in the last, like, two years, year and a half. And I'm, like, in my 30s now, I mean, it took me a really long time to get there. I know I'm still young, but it took me a really long time to finally feel that sense of independence. And now when I don't have it, I'm like, wait a second. Wait, I'm around all these people all the time. I want to, I want to lay in my bed, or I want to go on a walk, or I want to go to the movies. I want to take myself out to dinner. And instead of being afraid of people watching me out by myself, like, all alone, I was like, oh, like, it's not that big of a deal. And I'm happy. Nobody's watching me. Like, nobody cares that I'm out here alone. And I'm having a blast.

Melanie Avalon
So, I actually love this topic and I'm fascinated by it because it is really, it's really mind-blowing and eye-opening to think about the concept that, it's what you just said. So, for example, like, fear of being alone. I, like, I love being alone. Like you're saying, like, I just, I love it.

And, like, even if I don't think I'm ever going to get married, but never say never, I think even if I would, like, I would want, like, separate houses, like, I need my space to an extreme amount. But what I'm so fascinated by is how different experiences in life, whatever it may be. So, maybe it's being alone. Maybe it's traffic. Maybe it's any sort of thing that a person could either strongly dislike or not be bothered by fears, things that people hate or love, seasons, everything. There are people who hate it and people who love it and people who are terrified of it and people who would never be terrified of it. So, that means, in theory, we could be not scared of anything because there's probably somebody who loves that thing. Like, roller coasters. Like, some people are terrified of it and some people love it. Or, like, summer. I don't like summer anymore because I don't like the heat, but people love summer. And it's, like, so, my point is it's really, really interesting to think for whatever it may be that is distressing our soul and our emotional health and wellness, we may be terrified of it or hate it. There are people who love it. So, in theory, it doesn't have to bother us.

In theory. I just, like, love this topic, this concept.

Kelsey Packwood
Yeah. And with BPD, I mean, the sense of self thing is, I think, the part where it's just so hard to know who you are and what you like, because you've been told that you're not allowed to feel your feelings for so long, that you're too much for people. And so it's like you kind of lose this identity and like you don't want to be alone all the time. So you like just kind of like play along and just kind of like wear the clothes, like buy the trendy clothes that you fit in or like, you know, go to the concert that everybody's going to and spending all this money to go to like the music festival because you don't want to be left behind by the friend group or something. And so it's just it's that sense of self.

If you can start really like asking yourself questions of what do I like? And some people get defensive and they're like, I don't know, I don't like anything. Or, you know, like they'll kind of shut down. But if you can kind of get somebody to a point where like they kind of their guard goes down and like they really start thinking about what do they like, then I think that it's not so hard to piece the puzzles together to understand, okay, what do I like? What do I not like? Okay, what I don't like this, and I don't like this. And being around these other people is going to mean that I have to do this and this that I don't like. Okay, well, you know what, I'm going to give up doing the things I don't like because I have a sense of self and I care about my happiness. And if that means I lose those people, it's not because anybody's a bad person. It's not because anything is needs no fight needs to happen. We just are interested in different things. And therefore, I shouldn't be thinking of this as abandonment, where like that person doesn't like me doesn't want to be around me. And I make it into this thing about like me, it's like, no, they like what they like, and they're going to do that. And if you don't want to do the thing that they're doing, okay, like do the thing that you want to do that you like, and then maybe you'll meet people who like that thing. And so instead of hanging out with people who have different interests than you, and like freaking out all the time, like, Oh, my God, like, I'm gonna lose these friends. Why don't you just like kind of take a step back and really like don't betray yourself. Don't betray the things that you know, make you happy. And don't do the things that don't make you happy. If you have that in your control, then you can really reshape your sense of self.

And then you can kind of take away that like fear of abandonment, and then kind of feel excited for the solitude.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love these ideas so much. I am a huge fan of, and it sounds selfish, but only doing what you want to do. Like don't feel like you have to do things you don't want to do. And then also, like if I'm having an event and inviting people, I only want people to come if they want to come. Like I don't want people to do what they don't want to do either. So I just want everybody to do what they want to do.

And then from there, we can all be doing what we want to do. And we will, like you said, we'll align with people who, you know, want to do the same things. And we don't even, and you don't even have to necessarily like, it's not like there's some check mark box where you have to do X number of things with a person for them to, you know, still quote, be your friend. So like, it's okay if, if interests don't necessarily align, even if you still like, like them as a person.

So yeah, I'm team, everybody do what they want to do. I will never be upset if somebody doesn't want to, you know, come to something that I invite them to.

Kelsey Packwood
And, you know, common in like human culture, like we're just so we want to kind of fit in and do what other people do. So it's really hard to separate yourself from the crowd sometimes, but it's it's also OK to do that.

And I like it. I like doing.

Melanie Avalon
I like it. I'm a fan.

So did you have a... Because you've talked a lot about the different things, like the different moments in your past and how you worked on yourself and evolved. Did you have, like, a rock bottom moment? Or was it, you know, lots of different moments throughout your life?

Kelsey Packwood
I feel like I've had so many rock bottom moments, you know, like, there's just moments that are hard and painful. And you know, I mean, I think that the hardest one for me was when my dad and I stopped talking, which was really like, that was, you know, right when I was getting diagnosed four years ago. And that wasn't the person that I had talked to every day my entire life. He raised me, you know, it was me and him. And he just did not understand BPDU, like, and I couldn't get through to him. And we've talked about it since and, and he actually really admitted to the fact that he really wasn't hearing what I was saying. He actually said, like, like, you used to tell me that I don't listen to you. And I'd be like, what are you talking about? You've talked to me for the last 10 hours. I've listened to everything you've said. And he was like, but then I realized, no, I wasn't listening to anything you're saying. Yeah, you did talk to me. Yeah, I was there. But was I listening? I wasn't. I never really heard you. And now I hear you. And he didn't really know that BPDU was like real. He didn't know that, like, my emotions were real. He didn't know why it was happening. And so he kind of ran from it. And the greatest heartbreak of my life was when we stopped talking for many, many years.

And I mean, that's, that's where the pilot was born.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And to that point with the pilot, so when you had the idea for it, how much did it evolve and change? So like the finished product, is there anything that is exactly what you're envisioning from the beginning? Is there anything that was different and did you expect it to come out differently? What was the evolution of the project like?

Kelsey Packwood
I started writing the concept when I was in the writer's room for a TV show a couple years ago. Miracle Workers on TVS stars Daniel Radcliffe and Steve Buscemi.

I was the showrunner's assistant and I was writer's assistant and it was my first look into a writer's room and I was like, wow, this is how they write TV? I had watched so much TV and so when I saw how they wrote it, I was like, wait a second, I can do this.

Melanie Avalon
What was different? What was the most shocking thing, that experience?

Kelsey Packwood
It was the fact that everything was on like cardboard, like an index cards, and so like, like, or sorry, not cork board, that you just like put little index cards with like little sentences, and then like, you put enough index cards on a board, and you, you have an episode, you write those sentences, but like flesh them out, detail them a little more. And then all of a sudden, okay, you did the doing the work, like the the skeleton of the story, that to me was like, oh, like, because it always felt so overwhelming to write a script. But then when I realized like, you just have to, like, outline it. And then but you can do it in a way where like, it really can happen kind of fast.

And like, you can workshop it and you can tell jokes and like, you know, you focus on the story, but then you focus on the jokes. And I was like, okay, like, I want to, I want to try to write something like I think I can do this. And so I was like, let me write about what I'm going through. And I was getting diagnosed at the time. And so I was like, Okay, let me like Google like BPD television series, and I couldn't find anything. And I was like, Oh, my God.

Oh, this is it. Oh, no. Because like, I'm somebody who wants things to happen fast. And I was like, Oh, my God, this doesn't exist yet. Okay, well, this is probably going to take me so long than probably like a decade to complete.

And so, you know, for the last four years, I, I really I wrote and wrote and wrote and I rewrote and I rewrote and I got notes and I got feedback. And the version that we landed on was, it was like over the fourth version, I think, the third or fourth version. And the reason why I wrote the it again, for this version was because I needed to write it in a way that I could actually afford to shoot it. So versions were too expensive. So I was like, Okay, let me write this as like an almost one woman show, because I know that like, I won't have to pay myself, like I can get the scenes done pretty quick, like so we can shoot in two days, like a full 28 minute pilot, we shot it in my apartment, I wrote it like in an apartment in a restaurant and on the street.

So like, we still shots on the street, we shot in my apartment, but then I like found the perfect restaurant and my friends, they rented me the location for four hours. And so I, I wrote this version because I knew that like, I didn't have a lot of money to shoot this thing. But if I had any shot at getting it done, like I had a story that I thought I could do. And I also knew that I had that footage of me as a little girl. And so I was some footage already shot, I want some of it to be like a zoom therapy session. So I can shoot some of that on zoom. So that's, that's free. The rest of it like, Okay, how, what can I get done that I can afford to do? And everybody was shocked at how it ended up looking. I mean, like we raised $6,000 to shoot the pilot, and it looks way, way more than that.

And so once I had like, like the new script done, everything that happened from shooting, like pre-production shooting, and then post-production kind of was exactly what I envisioned, which was so incredible.

Kelsey Packwood
You know, it's interesting when you're watching footage, and it was about five hours and 45 minutes of footage that we shot. And I watched it all.

And I was like, Okay, I have a cut. And then, you know, we got together with my friend, Chris, who edited it with me. And we edited it in two weeks. Yeah, I mean, post-production cost more than shooting, but so like total budget ended up being like 20 grand. But for what I could shoot for the amount of money that I was able to raise, it was pretty much exactly what I hoped it would be. And I love it so much.

Melanie Avalon
This is so incredible. I love hearing the behind the scenes and it's actually really eerie timing because so this week that we're recording the episode that I'm airing is with one of my best friends from film school and he just released his first feature film and it went to Sundance and it's in theaters nationwide like right now but yeah I'm like so proud of him he's amazing it's called Playing Clothes so shout out for that but I was pulling clips this week for my social media like what to focus on from the interview and one of the clips we're going to post is him talking very similar to things you just said about like getting together the original short film and then the proof of concept and like what it actually costs and like what you actually go through to do that and it's just I have so much awe and and gratitude and appreciation and and you completely completely nailed it like it looks amazing.

Kelsey Packwood
It was my first time directing, so I had no idea what to expect, but when you're in control as the director, it's so nice because if you have a vision, then it's yours. I was told once that I'll never have this much creative control over any project ever again if this has success because anything going forward would have studios and production companies involved. And that's so true. It's like I really this time had full creative say, so it was pretty awesome.

Melanie Avalon
It's also funny, I went to an indie film last week, and there was a Q&A after, and the writer, director, similar thing like writer, director, actor, producer, he was saying how freeing it was to be the lead actor and the director because when he was the actor, he didn't have to worry about getting it right for the director because he was the director. I was like, that's so true.

Kelsey Packwood
Yeah, there was times that I did some scenes where I was just like, okay, it is what it is.

Melanie Avalon
I approve. I'm signing off. Oh man, that's amazing. Were the other actors in it? Did you go through like any sort of casting method or were they friends that you knew?

Kelsey Packwood
Elle, my therapist, she is a friend. Dion, the Postmates driver, he's a friend. Andrew, the date, I auditioned him. I auditioned a bunch of people, or guys, for the role, and I knew that he was the one from the second he said my name, because his first line in the script was Kelsey, and he was like, Kelsey? Like, really, like, this made me laugh so hard that I was like, all right, I just knew.

And like, he really lifted the words off of screen, and we were able to like improv and stuff, and like, and, ugh, he just killed it. But you know, my favorite character is Billy, the trumpet player, like Coates. He's actually, he's a trumpet player that busks on Robertson in third in LA, where I used to live, and he is not an actor, and I just said, hi, I wrote this script, and I wrote you into it, because I need like some neighborhood vibes, and like, every time I would see you, I would just always think like, oh, like, you're exactly who I need. Would you be willing to do this? And he was like, uh, sure. And I was like, okay, like, you just gotta show up at this day, and like, rehearse with me a couple days, and then we shoot on this day, and he was like, okay. And he showed up every single time, and he was prepared, and we workshopped his scenes, and I like, rewrote them for him. Every time that we read everything, like, I would tweak the things. He was a little nervous, but he's such a standout. Like, we would shoot like his stuff, and like, I was like, okay, don't worry, you've never acted before, don't worry. All I need you to do is say the line, and make sure that you give me like, a nice room to breathe after the line, and we will piece this thing together. In the end, it was just so impactful. Like, he really, really brings out emotion in me whenever I watch the pilot. I really, I'm so proud of Billy.

Melanie Avalon
that story makes my life. I have to rewatch it now knowing that. That is so incredible. Oh man, it's like the real deal. That is so sweet.

Kelsey Packwood
like he's just he's such a cool guy and I don't think that the the show would not have been the same without him you know like I really think that he adds something to it and also he brings the humanity to it as well.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wow. Oh, that's amazing. I love that story.

You mentioned how the journey from writing to producing post-production. So then after that, how has it been trying to get it out there and getting it out there? I mean, you've premiered at some places and on Thanksgiving, it'll be online. But what has the reception been like and what has been most gratifying for you with that?

Kelsey Packwood
Yeah, I've been very lucky to do several screenings partnering with different organizations like the National Education Alliance for Borderline Personality Disorder, the New England Personality Disorder Association. I've been able to play the film for people who are loved ones of people who have BPD, for people who have BPD with lived experience, for therapists and clinicians.

It's been screened internationally at hospitals as a teaching tool for therapists. And I've been told that this is like, it's just such an accurate portrayal of BPD that I do a very good job of including like all of the criteria. So, you know, identify the criteria in any point in the pilot. Like, if you go through it, there's a point that covers every criteria. And also it's a way to help therapists see with the different therapies, like, you know, DBT, mentalization therapy, schema therapy, that it works as a teaching tool for all of them. It's kind of like universal in that way. And so I also, I've met some people who felt just really seen and heard in ways that like I, you know, I had no idea that like somebody would feel so connected to certain scenes or lines or, you know, like things I do. I'm very excited. I want to release it. I just, I'm ready for the world to see it because I feel like, again, there's just not a lot of accurate portrayals of BPD on screen.

I've been told that what works about this pilot is that normally when you see like depictions of BPD, whether they're like explicit about the fact that the character has it or not, normally you leave the film thinking like, oh, that's just like a really unhinged, unwell person where mine, you leave it and you think like that's a human being, you know, like that's somebody that we should have empathy towards. That's a full person who's going through a really hard time and you really like can see the humanity in it. So that's my hope is that when more people see it, because, you know, not a lot of people have. So when more people see it, and if I've based on the feedback I've already gotten, I feel like I've been told that people who've watched it, they've never felt empathy for people with BPD before.

And now that they've watched it, they have empathy for their parents or their partners who may have caused them harm, some like abuse or mistreatment, you know, like they realize like, oh, wow, that's what's going on on the other side. Like that's why they're feeling that way. So I, yeah, I'm really, really excited to share. I mean, it's time.

Melanie Avalon
That's exactly how I felt walking away after watching it. And I'll say just briefly, because you were mentioning earlier about you got feedback about the restaurant saying Binglong. Literally, that part flew by for me because it's so funny. I'm like so captured by it.

So I never had that experience personally. You've definitely, definitely accomplished that. And I'm really curious. So if it were to become or when it becomes like a TV show, do you have in your mind the arc of where it would go from there? Or how would you approach?

Kelsey Packwood
I think I thought I did because I was like, oh, like a person with BPD, like it's going to go through many different stages in their life. Like what would it be like, like for them to be like struggling in their like youth and then like motherhood and then like losing like someone or something. I like thought of these life events.

I thought of the story of life event in life events where now I'm kind of, I'm slowing down. I'm taking a lot more information in and the more I learn, it's just, there's so many possibilities here. So I'm not quite sure what the next step for this process and project will be because in the meantime, I really want to focus on sharing on social media so that there can be like short clips available to educate people about BPD.

But I think that like when the time comes, if it does get made into a full series, I think that when the time comes, that's when I'll start thinking again of where to go with the story. Because again, like I don't know, like maybe I won't act in it. Maybe I will have somebody else like as the main character. And you know, BPD presents so differently in women and in men. So it's another thing that's really important is that we have the representation for the different genders because I don't want to just like focus on one thing because I want to help all the different kinds of people.

I mean, there's all the different kinds of combinations. So there's so much there and so much to think about and I have so much to learn. So I'm just kind of absorbing at the moment and taking it in.

Melanie Avalon
I am so excited for you and I am so excited for everybody to watch this. So friends, listeners, get excited. It's coming out next week. If you're listening when this episode comes out, then it's coming out next week on Thanksgiving. If you're listening after Thanksgiving, you can go watch it now.

It's going to be on TikTok, on Instagram, on YouTube, all the places. The handle is BorderlineTVSeries on TikTok and Instagram. So go watch it. I am so, so excited for everybody to watch it and have their own experiences and epiphanies and emotional journey and laughs and just all the things. So Kelsey, thank you. Is there any other topics or things that you want to touch on that is really important to you to share about everything that you're doing with this work?

Kelsey Packwood
Well, I'm just so thankful that I got to talk to you. And I'm just really excited that there is a moment in time where we're ready for this information. I feel like people haven't known what it is, and that's the problem. And I feel like people are struggling to understand it in a way where they can explain it to others. And so I think what makes me feel very grateful is that I've created something where I know that it has accomplished that, where people are getting a better understanding of borderline personality disorder.

And I think that I'm the right person to do this. So I'm gonna fight every single day to continue to help people who are going through what I'm going through. And I just want those people to know that you are heard, you are cared for. I will not stop until we get better treatment in mental health care and life, it's very hard, but it also, it can get better. So yeah, I hope that we're getting to the point in the world where we're gonna make a difference here and we're gonna break the stigma.

Melanie Avalon
Well, you are literally doing that. And like I said at the beginning, and just to echo everything that you're saying now, I just feel like this affects so many people, whether or not you have BPD or a loved one does, a friend does, whoever it may be, or just somebody you know, meet in your life. Like it affects so many people. It's not being represented properly, in my opinion.

And I just can't thank you enough for putting it out there, spreading the awareness and doing it in such a, honestly, a fun, entertaining way. So yes, friends, listeners, check out Borderline next week. Kelsey, this was so, so amazing. The last question that I actually ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I am so, so obsessed with a healthy mindset. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Kelsey Packwood
I am grateful and I always talk about my dog, but my dog, my dog, Freddie Mercury. I just, I'm so grateful to have like such a loving, beautiful creature and soul that I get to share this life with.

And he loves me so well. It's such a healing thing to be around such unconditional love. So I'm very grateful for Freddie.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I love it. Well, I'm grateful for Freddie too for spreading the love. So thank you so much.

Congrats in advance. I can't wait to talk to you when it airs and all the things. So we will stay in touch. Hopefully have you back on in the future. And yeah, you're just the best. So thank you.

Kelsey Packwood
amazing thank you so much nani

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast.

For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, AvalonX. Please visit MelanieAvalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at MelanieAvalon.com. And always remember, you got this.