The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #314 - Dr. Caroline Leaf

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
No thought is bad, no emotion is bad, no perception is bad. It only becomes problematic if I get stuck in it.

So if you just take a positive statement and put it on top of the negative statement or try and replace it every time the negative comes up, you think, okay, well, I'll just think positive. You're basically putting a bandaid on the wound. Can't change your stories, but you can rewire to change how they play out into the future. Self-regulation is key to mental health.

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity, and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind, we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics lying herein. So friends, are you ready to join me? Let's do this!

Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Friends, I am so excited for you to hear today's episode. Dr. Caroline Leaf is an original on this show. As we talk about, this is her fourth appearance and it is such an honor to have her. I just realized we didn't tell much about her bio. She is a legend in the mental health sphere. She is a renowned clinical and research neuroscientist, communication pathologist, and audiologist specializing in psycho neurobiology. She has pioneered so many techniques that actually show how the mind can actively reshape the brain to overcome trauma, manage stress, eliminate negative thought patterns, all the things. She's a TEDx speaker. She's been featured in Forbes, Business Insider, Vogue, and so many other outlets. She has a massive, adoring audience for good reason.

And I absolutely loved her book Help in a Hurry, which we dive into in today's episode. We touch on so many topics. We talk about how, yes, you can do a lot of work to address long-term trauma. And at the same time, it can be super helpful to know how to act in the moment when you get stressed, worry, anxiety, or one of 15 different things that she found out plague so many people when she pulled her audience. We're talking things like people pleasing, regrets, a busy brain that won't shut up, and so much more. In this episode, we talk about the problem with positive thinking. Yes, the problem with it, the difference between overthinking versus deep thinking. That's something I think about a lot. No pun intended. The difference between the non-conscious versus the conscious mind, the super cool benefits of reading fiction, why you should actually validate your negative thoughts, and so much more. And we didn't even get to so many things in her book, things like thinker moments, the importance of daydreaming, how it's actually not normal to be happy all the time, why you should schedule worry time, and a myriad of other things. I love this conversation.

Definitely get her book ASAP. These show notes will be at Melanie Avalon.com slash help. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Definitely let me know in my Facebook group, IF biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to enter to win something that I love.

Melanie Avalon
And then check out my Instagram, find the Friday announcement post. And again, comments there to enter to win something that I love. All right. I think that's all the things.

Without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with Dr. Caroline Leaf. Hi friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I'm about to have. It is with a fantastic guest that listeners are probably very familiar with. And actually, so last night I was looking through to see just exactly when this guest had been on the show before and how many times. And it's kind of like a perfect pattern. So I'm here with Dr. Caroline Leaf. She was one of my first episodes back in 2019. We talked about her book, Switch on Your Brain. And then she came on two years later in 2021 for cleaning up your mental mess. Two years later in 2023 for how to help your child clean up their mental mess. And now two years later in 2025 for her newest book, which is called Help in a Hurry, Simple Tips for Finding Peace When You're Overwhelmed, Anxious, or Stressed. And I was just telling Dr. Leaf this before we started recording. This book, friends, is A, I think it can help so many people. And it is really, really unique to me in the mental health sphere because so many books in the mental health sphere are incredible. And they often focus on finding the root cause of deep trauma, fixing one issue, doing a lot of really deep long-term work on your past. And the purpose of this book, and you can totally correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Leaf. What I took away from this book is this is the tool that you need for, yes, you can be working on your long-term mental health and addressing these long, deep issues and things that you have going on in your life. And it's really helpful to have tools to just literally address all of the crazy thoughts that happen. And by crazy, I don't mean to be judgmental, but the bothersome thoughts that we have during the day that just happen. And how do you specifically address them? So what do you do when you are overwhelmed? What do you do when you're angry, when you don't feel happy, when you feel like you're not enough? And how do you just have something that you can concretely do right then to address that so that you don't let those thoughts become something that Dr. Leaf talks about a lot, which is a habit. So thank you again for all the times you've been on the show. Thank you for being here now. And congrats on the new

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
book. Thanks so much Melanie for that lovely introduction and it's so nice to be back with you again.

I can't believe it's like every, you're through it three times now. It's the fourth time. This is the fourth time from 2019. Wow, I didn't realize that.

Melanie Avalon
amazing.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
Yeah, like six years ago was the first time. I mean, that really is amazing how time flies. And thank you, thank you for your lovely introduction. I appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, of course. And congrats on all the books you've done, you know, during that time.

Yeah. So this new book, okay, I'm so curious about so many things. You mentioned later in the book that, and it was just a throwaway moment, but it really made me want to ask you something, which is you mentioned that when you were researching for the book, you were asking people what did they struggle with the most during the day? Well, hey, I'm curious. What made you decide to take this focus with the book, you know, to give people help in a hurry. And then two, when you were doing polling of people, were there, because you've decided on, you know, about a dozen or so in the book, so clearly there were themes. But were some themes like more present than others? Were there some that you left out that you wanted to include it? Like, how did you even come up with this concept? And how did you decide which different things to put in?

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
to include? So it's such a great question. So I feel this book is like the missing link. And when I was practicing clinically, which I did for 25 years, what I found was that I was helping people manage the moment, not be reactive in the moment and translate that into my work in ensuing years. People were always asking like at book tables and conferences and in comments and questions and so on, how do I handle, I know I need to work on the long-term stuff, but how do I handle the now moment? And so I feel that this book offers that missing link.

It's not a quick fix by no means. I'm not telling people, it's almost like a conundrum, the title, but I'm not telling people there's a quick fix. What I'm telling people is that there's a first step. And that first step is creating a gap, a bit like a traffic light has got red and orange before it goes green. That's what we need to create. We need to create that gap, that space, the pause. You often hear people talking about the gap, the pause. I use the idea of the traffic light, as I just mentioned. And this gap, this pause, this whatever you want to call it, is a missing link. And what I've found from the research, the clinical research, the clinical application and in the surveys we did is that if you don't get that moment right, if you don't manage and get into self-regulation in that moment, the next moments become more messy and it becomes very difficult to make long-term changes in your life. So it was almost like I thought to myself, why didn't I write this book years ago? Because it was really a key breakthrough with my patients where they were just, ah, there's so much to work on. I said, OK, well, let's start with a small little thing. Let's get this moment right. And that's what this book is all about.

It's all about the 63 seconds. It's all about the and there's a whole lot of science behind the 1663, which we can talk about. But essentially, if you can learn to self-regulate the 63 seconds or the next minute, you can then regulate the minute after that. And then you can regulate the next hour, the next day. You can then regulate the next rest of your life. So it literally opens the door for you being able to manage the biggest stuff in your life. For example, let's say someone really makes you angry or someone really says something to you that triggers you like you always do this or you never do that. You know, black and white type thinking and you feel yourself wanting to just bubble up and just say something really harsh back or you get really upset and withdraw or you maybe land up people pleasing or you maybe land up snapping or getting really angry or sending a snarky text or something. And that just makes the problem worse. You feel worse and the problem doesn't go away. It also we do it to ourselves. We can we can react to ourselves in the moment with critical self-talk, that kind of thing. And so if we can learn to not react in that moment, to stand back and regulate that moment, then we can in the 60 seconds, which is your key sort of little time frame, 60, 63 seconds, you can then move into the next moment.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
How we came up with all these specific chapters and chapter titles is from the research, the clinical application, the years of questions, the years of working with my patients. And then we also, in addition, did a survey to thousands of followers. And we came up with these and they were like 20 odd different titles that were main areas that came up. And of those, we narrowed it down because some of them were very, very similar to basically 15, 15 different areas. So things like help them under pressure, help my brain won't shut up, help I want to punch that person in the face, help the world seem so black and white, help I'm tired all the time, help my intrusive thoughts just won't quit, help I don't help, I don't feel happy all the time, help I'm angry all the time. And so on this, I won't read all of them. But even just a few of those, I'm sure people can relate, help my pastors haunting me, help people pleasing again, help I'm self-diagnosing, help my inner critic won't let up, help technologies everywhere, help everything's going wrong. I landed up reading them all anyway. But the point is those 15 came out as top of what people are really, really battling with.

It was so interesting. So then I just decided, okay, it aligned with the research I've done clinically, it aligned with my own life. I thought, yeah, these are really areas that I get asked so much about in podcast questions and book conferences and conferences and things, and then just my own life and my family. And so I decided to dive in, help people understand in very simple ways. The chapters are short, they're simple, they explain the concept, that it's all science based, but the science is not complicated. And then there are techniques that you can learn proactively in the moment. And I stress the proactive part, because let's say that you're in the midst of one of those, oh, they always say that. It always is a very triggering word because always is such a black and white word is before you react or say something negative is to create that moment. What can you do? What technique can you do in that moment besides just breathing, which everyone will tell you just breathe. There's so much more you can do in that moment to redirect the neuroplasticity. So that's what this book's about, long answer and based on really good research.

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much. Yeah, it's so interesting because if people just worked on the long-term things that they're dealing with, that doesn't mean that other stuff won't come up in the moment. So basically, if you just focus on the long-term, that doesn't necessarily make you capable for dealing with life on an ongoing basis, even if you, quote, solve all of your childhood trauma, compared to, I'm not saying to just focus on the short-term moment, but at the same time, if you can actually handle every moment as it comes your way, then you can keep sailing through life. Then you can really deal with life, regardless of whether or not you've resolved your long-term stuff, which obviously we want people to do.

When you narrowed down the categories and you had the different things, you mentioned that a lot of it is informed by your work. Did you create unique tools for any of these answers or were they things that you'd already been working with in your work? I'm just wondering how you approach that.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
It was a combination of what the foundational principles of why the 60 seconds, what happens in that 60 seconds was very a driving force behind the science of how you can create the pause. And then the techniques are a combination of ones that I found worked with patients and worked with clients. And there are general ones that people can be quite potentially quite familiar with. The overarching concept though is based on what the work I've done for years on the cycle, which is based on my theory. And that is really the process of how thoughts form into your mind, brain, body connection and how you can manage those and how you can manage those in the moment. So it's a combination of that foundational principle, which is built into all the techniques and then specific ones.

So the idea is for you to look through the book. You don't have to read it sequentially. It's more look through and see, okay, I battle with people pleasing or I battle with this inner critic. Or maybe you think, hey, all of these are problematic for me because pretty much all of them are, they're pretty universal issues. Most people will battle with these a lot of the time, increasingly so in our current environment that we live in and the current zeitgeist. But the way to use this in an effective way is to choose the area that you feel is most dominant in your life, currently the most disruptive. And then to go in and read that chapter and understand it and look through the techniques and choose something or try them out when you are not in that situation. So be proactive, understand them, try them out, play around with them. And then so when you're in that moment of anger or being stimulated or triggered by something or another, you already have a technique in your mind to practice. You have the overarching principle and then you have the, you know, something that you, that works for you. And then you'll change those. You know, the techniques are also, even though I put techniques per chapter, they're not mutually exclusive. You may find what works for people pleasing actually works really well for overthinking or, you know, dealing with being tired all the time or something like that. So you know, you can move the techniques around if it works for you.

Melanie Avalon
And for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to those prior episodes that we've done because we dive deep, deep, deep into the structure of thoughts in the mind and the mind versus the brain and the different states of consciousness. And it's really, really fascinating.

I think what I'll do is I'll ask you my, the random questions and thoughts that I had coming up from everything. Because like you said, it's kind of like a choose your own adventure. People can get the book and they can, you know, look at what they're dealing with and find tools and such to address it. So I was actually talking with a friend the other day and I was talking about your book, because she was saying that she was trying this new approach of thinking positive in life. So she was saying, you know, for everything she was doing, she was just going to focus on the positive. And I was like, that's great. And I was like, I'm reading this book coming out by Dr. Leaf. And she talks a lot about the role of the positive and at the same time, making sure you're not suppressing the negative. And so I saw that as a theme throughout the book, this idea of when these different thoughts come up, the role, I guess, of acknowledging them and not just ignoring them or avoiding them or replacing them with the positive.

So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. So how do we deal with these thoughts that are seemingly negative? Can we just ignore them?

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
No, that's such a great, insightful question. Quick, can I just divide that answer into two parts? So firstly, I'm really glad that you did hone in on this, as I said, very insightful, good question, because we do live in a kind of zeitgeist, if I can use that word, of just think of positive thought. Just create some positive affirmations.

I know you're in the world of biohacking, but literally, let's just biohack our way out of this. And Dave Asprey even asked me the other day, can't you just speed this up, this neuroplasticity, this healing thing? No, you can't. You have to go through the process because of the whole way that the mind-run body connection works. So these Help in a Hurry moments don't fix the problem. They give you a solution in the moment to teach you not to be reactive, and they then open the door to wisdom, which is in the non-conscious mind. And maybe in the next question, we can just quickly rerun through what those are, the different levels of mind, but it literally opens up your insight and your wisdom. When that part of your mind is opened up, then you can see, okay, well, why am I needing to feel positive all the time? Why am I using positivity as a solution for negativity? Where's this negativity coming from? And those are just big words that actually are showing us our signals, behavior patterns that are signals, because you get four types of signals, emotions, behaviors, bodily sensations, and perceptions, and they work together as a unit. So something like feeling negative and wanting to replace it with a positive is basically a signal, a behavioral signal that's got a reason behind it. So you're not negative. You are negative because of massive difference. So you're feeling negative because of. So if you just take a positive statement and put it on top of the negative statement or try and replace it every time a negative comes up, you think, okay, well, I'll just think positive. You're basically putting a band-aid on the wound. Silly analogy would be if you put your hand on the stove and you keep taking opioids to get rid of the pain, but you never remove your hand on the stove. Eventually, your hand will get burnt off and the pain won't go away. And such a silly analogy, but that's what we're doing with just using positive psychology concepts or just a CBT technique. Not that I'm anti any of those things. They all have their place. When they're in a balanced place, they all have value, everything, positive psychology, everything has got value, everything can contribute to our knowledge. But how you use things is so critically important. So I'm not saying don't think the positive thought, but that's not your solution. That's the end part of the game.

The first thing that you're going to have to do is because you can't just replace the first thing you're going to have to do is you're going to have to actually validate and honor the negative thought.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
And so by that, what I mean is that when you have that negative thought, that's a word, it's an umbrella word for what is that negative thought about? What is that negative thought? What's the who, what, when, where, why, and how of the negative thought? So there's a lot of data there that needs to be sort of deconstructed.

But to start deconstructing a negative thought straight away is too much work in the moment because you're going to feel it may trap you and you may just give up and suppress it or just take a positive affirmation and hope that works and then it doesn't, or think of positive thought. So what one has to do is as that desire to suppress the negative thought with a positive thought and think that that's going to fix things, as it comes up, the first thing that you need to do, say, no, I'm not going to suppress that negative thought because no thought is bad. No emotion is bad. No perception is bad. It only becomes problematic if I get stuck in it, like on hamster wheel. It's basically information. Signals give us information. It's data. So the first thing I need to do is validate and honor, not honor that you're going to carry on with it, but honor the fact that you had that experience. You feel negative. Okay. No judgment. You feel negative. You feel negative. What is that negativity? So first thing here that I'm saying is so important. Validate and honor that negative feeling. Translated into a statement, I feel negative because this was said to me or I feel, name it, validated, honor it. That's sort of the first thing.

The minute you do that, your psychoneurobiology changes. Psychoneurobiology is your mind-brain-body connection. Your mind is 99% of who you are. Your brain and body are only 1%. Your mind basically uses the brain and body as a host. So the brain and body become like a mediator to the mind. The mind's the boss. The mind's where everything's happening. The brain and body just do what the mind tells it to do.

So if I validate with my mind consciously and intentionally with my 99% part of who I am, if I validate and say, oh yeah, wow, I'm really negative at the moment and I'm immediately put my conscious mind, which is kind of messy if it needs to be. It's good. It's got a messy part and a kind of a tidy part, like a toddler needing to be guided by a parent. Your messy mind loves data, like a toddler loves excited, learning things up and down one minute down the next. So a parent comes and sort of guides the toddler. So think of your conscious mind as a toddler and a parent. And so if I validate my negative statement, then the toddler, the parent is validating the toddler. They're saying, yeah, you want to do that or you want to play with us. But if you do that, the dog will bite you. If you pull, stick your hand on the dog's throat, they're going to bite you or whatever the case may be.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
So the parent is guiding the toddler mind. So by validating, I step into that combination of the parent guiding the toddler mind. As soon as I do that, I open access or throw the door wide to wisdom, insight, intuition, creativity, imagination, all the things where our intelligence is firing up and we become amazing because we have our solutions and tools in that part of our mind, which we call the non-conscious. If I don't, if I'm negative and I think, oh, negative, bad, bad, I've got to push it down. I've got to suppress it with an opioid in inverted commas. I've got to grab this positive thought and think, no, I'm happy. I'm whatever. The minute I do that, I stay stuck in the toddler mind. There's no real logic to that. The problem still exists. Another problem has become a problem, whereas before it was more of a condition than a problem. And now my parent is nowhere in the room, which means I've closed the door to insight, wisdom, intuition, et cetera.

So now I'm going to get fumble around. Maybe in the moment it gets me through the moment, but then it comes up again and again. And because you are suppressing the source, you actually have a pattern that's growing bigger and bigger and bigger, and you're actually making something that's the because of is getting stronger and stronger and driving you more and more. And eventually you're just going to get into a very bad place because the positive statement won't work. However, if I take 60 seconds to validate and honor the fact that I am feeling negative in this moment, I change my psychoneurobiology, which means my mind shifts into this whole beautiful, balanced parent toddler wise mind thing, intuition, insight, et cetera, et cetera. I then send the right kind of energies through the brain and we'll pick that up with things like QEG. We see changes in blood flow on MRI, et cetera, et cetera, in places like the frontal lobe. So in other words, the brain is responding like it should. And then that sends messages through to the entire, all the systems of the body, every cell of the body that you're okay. And even your breathing changes, and we're going to talk about breath as the next sort of third step in what you do.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
But the validation part, this awareness and acknowledgement and honoring and validation has already shifted you into a position of control.

otherwise you're out of control and now what you do is you you start seeing that negative statement as data as I mentioned and that then is where you can start doing that you can do this in in either order so that that as you acknowledge that you may feel a little anxiety you may feel that you take a short little breath like you know short little breaths and you may feel your body tensing so you may want to do a little bit of physiological work and that could be something like a visualization visualizing that negative thing as being as small as an ant or you could visualize or do you could do something like sip breathing where you breathe in the i wouldn't actually sorry i wouldn't do that at this point but you could do something something a visualization or just like just rhythmic breathing just you know just to get yourself from stopping the shallow breathing then you do a mind shift and a mind shift is okay i honor this this data in here it's going to tell me something i can't fix this in this moment but i'm going to spend a bit of time seven days or five days preferably seven and i'm going to watch myself over the next few days to see how often the negative pattern emerges and i'm going to see the who what when we why and how of the pattern and then i'm going to dedicate a 63 day block 10 to 15 minutes a day where you go through my five step neurocycle process and you literally rewire that habit that's got you into the place of the negativity in other words you're going to have to rewire the because of but first of all you're going to have to find the because of so i know i've said a lot so in summary short quick summary the first thing you do is validate the second thing you do is you do a little bit if you need to calm down a little bit of a rhythmic breathing or a visualization and then the third thing is you're going to do a mind shift and a mind shift is where you self do a little bit of self-talk where you say okay this is data there's a big cause of i'm negative i'm going to do there's a pattern by emerging here and for this moment i'm going to maybe think of something positive because at this stage i don't mind if you put in a little positive statement but with the with the proviso that you say that okay i'm going to say that i'll get through this but i'm going to spend the time working on why i have this negative pattern okay so does that make sense and i'm going to talk about the breathing and the levels of mind separately i just didn't want to make this answer too long does that does that make sense what i've just described would you want me to explain it in a different way

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, it's incredible. I know you're going to explain the other stuff. Really quick question. This is so helpful, especially for me.

I think in my audience is there's so much content out there about how, you know, negative thoughts negatively affect our physiology and epigenetically affect us. And, you know, it's hard to heal with stress. And so I think there's almost a fear if these feelings happen that they just, you know, they can't happen. So we just don't engage with them. And it creates, you know, what you're talking about where we just ignore them and suppress them and they're still there doing damage rather than, you know, validating them and acknowledging them and then doing the techniques that you outlined. Is there a time limit? Because you said, you said like 60 seconds to validate and then, you know, make these shifts. You also mentioned other places in the book, like this idea of like controlled indulging and things like that. So is there like an actual amount of time where if we are in the negative state that it will become more sticky? Is it that 60 seconds or how long?

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
Your first 60 seconds is very critical, and that's because your stream of consciousness, when you've all heard of the concept of consciousness, is in little 10-second blocks, and we tend to pay attention to every six groups of 10. So that's where we kind of get a little aha moments. Now, this is just, this is a moral, this is sort of on average. So on average, because of the way the conscious mind works, it can only handle two to three words per second, one conversation at a time. Whereas your non-conscious mind, which is your most intelligent part, it's where wisdom resides, every memory you've ever had plastered into thoughts exists, it operates 24-7, it's our best friend, it finds the disruptive thoughts and lets us become aware of those. All this, it's really fast, operates at 400 billion actions per second. It is constantly trying to find the patterns that are disruptive and find the patterns, and by patterns, I mean habits, which drive you, that are good for you, because you also want to focus on the good stuff. And this relates to the sort of, what positive thing should you focus on? And you're not just any random statement, you need to find the stuff that's already in you, that will build your resilience. And you can't find that stuff if you're so stuck, just trying to slap a positive thought on or slap a negative thought on.

So coming back to the time thing, the non-conscious is very fast, 400 billion actions per second, and probably way, way faster than that. The conscious mind is operating, can only handle that one conversation at a time, two to three words, like you and I are having a conversation. But if someone came in the room, in your studio, in my studio, and started talking to us, we would have four conversations going on. And that would be three, and that would be very difficult for all of us to pay attention to anything. That's the conscious mind, it's designed for focus, but your non-conscious mind isn't limited. But so therefore, the way that the non-conscious communicates with the conscious mind, and I'm not saying un, I'm saying non, in or in, non-conscious. Unconscious is a brain state. Non-conscious is a mind level, two different things. So your non-conscious mind is driving everything about you, and it sends up bursts of information through the subconscious. Slow down because your conscious mind and your brain and body can't handle the speed of the non-conscious. It has to be slowed down. You literally would explode if all of the non-conscious, which is your sort of spirit level, if you want that kind of word, and source of wisdom, et cetera, et cetera. It's so big and brilliant and fast that it has to be narrowed down to the essentials and very slow, and that it does that by the subconscious. And then the subconscious sends up bursts of signals in these little groups of 10 seconds. And I'm getting quite technical, but just to make it easy for people, that's what I talk about, around about 60 to 63 seconds, because it takes around about 63 days to rewire a habit. Working daily takes around about 60 to 63 seconds for you to be aware of what is coming up from the non-conscious mind.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
And you train yourself to do this. This book will train you to be self-regulated. The minute you can self-regulate the 60 seconds, you can self-regulate anything. You can build on that and build on that, because self-regulation is key to mental health. Absolutely key too, because you're basically managing your mind through self-regulation.

And that is absolutely key, because everything that we need to function is in the depths of our non-conscious. But what happens is that we get so stuck in that 60 seconds in the reaction to the black and white thinking, to the critical thinking, the self-critical talk, the people pleasing, the person making you angry, the, I'm so tired, I can't function, whatever it is, I'm under so much pressure, I'm so stressed. We get so caught up in that that we get stuck very fast. And when you get stuck in that very fast moment, it doesn't mean you can incapacitate it for the rest of your life. It just means that the next moment is going to be difficult. And if that becomes your pattern, then every moment becomes a pattern. And until you have actually deconstructed the because of the reason why you're showing up like that, that because of still lives and gets stronger. Unfortunately, each time you triggered to react, that pattern that you're reacting from, that habit that is wired into your mind-brain-body connection is activated. The non-conscious mind says, yay, finally you're paying attention, but then you can veto that with your conscious mind. Oh, I don't like this. Let me pop on a positive thought. Let me pop on a positive affirmation. Well, unfortunately, it doesn't go away. It goes back into the non-conscious even more powerful than before. So 60 seconds is you can do multiple 60 seconds. I'm not saying that you're going to solve your life's problems in 60 seconds, but I know that if you can train yourself to manage that 60 seconds, you may need two or three sets because that person's really aggravating you. All that situation of people pleasing has become so bad that you just haven't quite got the courage in 60 seconds to say no, but maybe in three minutes of doing some stuff, you can go back and you can say, actually, I can't do this. This is something I've put too much on my plate and this is not acceptable what you've asked me to do or something like that. So it might take you a bit longer. The first time you may do the 60 seconds in your head and still people please, but at least you started the process. So it's all you learn. It's a skill that you develop. So yeah, that 60 seconds is insanely wonderful. It's so empowering to just experience that moment of you send the email, you get to the, someone sends an email, someone texts you, someone says something to you, and you immediately feel yourself rising to the beat and you've been, oh, no, hang on. I can do this. Validate, do a bit of a mind shift, try a little technique. breathing, whatever combination you want, but always the validation, always the mind shift. And some kind of neurophysiological calming down thing is always part of the parcel.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
In the book, there's tables and there's exercises that you can do which take it a little deeper. So once you've controlled the moment, you can then go and look for your patterns.

Once you found your patterns, and that's what all the tables and things that are in the book are for, is to help you find your patterns. Once you find your patterns, then I recommend you do the full neurocycle process over 63 days to rewire that thing that's driving you. You can't change your stories, but you can rewire to change how they play out into the future.

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much.

It's really helping to explain something I've been doing for one of the biggest changes I think that has helped me personally in my life is like if I get an email or if I ever get any sort of incoming information from another person that it upsets me, I'm pretty good about not like not answering.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
Right then. And that's really good. That's really good that you don't answer straight away.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I always like, I'm like, okay, pause step away, and then I wait until I'm not in that reactive state of receiving the information. And I used to wonder if that was like, avoiding or procrastinating.

But now I see that it can be a really helpful tool, because you're not allowing yourself to react while you're in that, in that moment, you're allowing that at least that 60 seconds. Does that mean when you talk with people, like when you're having interactions with people, that every 10 seconds that there is the opportunity or potential for the direction of the energy of the conversation to change? Like if you're if you're interacting with somebody and you don't like the way it's going every 10 seconds, is it like a new opportunity to shift a different direction?

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
It is. Now, it doesn't mean that you put your timer on because it almost sounds impossible. How am I going to do that? So, it's almost like the way to train yourself is to actually, you could set your timer on your phone and then practice like in 60, what 60 seconds feels like. And you'll be amazed at how much you can actually do.

So, you could just recall a situation, look in the chapters, find which areas, the area that you think is the most dominant as a disruptive pattern in your life at this stage. And let's say it is being under pressure or something. Like a big one that I battled with was something like I didn't get X done. Very, very good. So, in a safe space, recall that as opposed to being in that situation. So, recall that when you feel good and say, okay, this is what I used to do. I would do that. So, now, let me think of a most recent time when I did that. So, you recall that thought. And then you say, okay, well, as you recall it, you'll immediately feel the reaction in your body because you're pulling up something that's alive. It's got meaning. It's not computational like a computer. It's got meaning. It's got direction. It's got all kinds of things attached to it. So, you'll call it and by your bodily reaction, you can then recreate a scenario. And in that scenario, you can say, okay, let me validate. Let me do a mind shift. Let me do a little bit of a physiological thing. Let me do whatever combination of the technique that you want to do. And then, I can give an example in a moment. I just want to make sure I answer your question, is that as you practice that scenario and you time it, you can see how much you got through in that moment, then do it again and do it with another technique. And when you've done two or four, which will take you honestly maybe an hour to read through, find the chapter, read the technique, choose a technique, practice it, you would have trained yourself to be literally aware of the every 10 seconds without having to time yourself every 10 seconds. And then, once you start using those, it's instantaneous. You become very aware of every moment, not in a bad way, in a good way. You start noticing your tone of voice, how you're holding your body, how that person's reacting to what you're saying, how you're reacting to that email, how you're reacting to that text. And it's so freeing because you get the sense of control of, hey, I don't have to get upset about this. And yes, maybe they are valid in what they're saying to me and I can learn from that, but I don't have to embody that now.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
I can direct the, I can, it's still going to go in because everything that you process through your mind becomes part of your brain, mind-brain-body network, but you can direct what it looks like. And therefore, If you if someone's made you angry in a meeting or if you find yourself saying oh I didn't get x done If you don't if you just run with that that gets that toddler messy mind wrong energy brain and body all kinds of whatever but if you say okay I didn't get x done And I know that worries me and I know I wanted to get all those things done and that's I honor that I you you you hardworking well then carolina well then Melanie or It's great.

I see that but it's kind of and then you start a little bit of a mind shift But this is putting a lot of pressure on you. I mean filly your heart's beating fast You feeling like you know, maybe you feel a little bit depressed in that moment. So you kind of go through your signals What are my emotions? What am I feeling this in my body? How is it affecting my perspective? And you might say wow It's making me feel like the next the rest of the day is going to be a mess or you know Just like a really negative outlook suddenly and so you analyze this in this very you know validate and and the mind shift involves this analyzing this and the easiest way to do it is to Yes to validate. Yes, I did this or said that or whatever and then to go through those four signals and say yeah Where are you feeling this? That's valid feeling. I can understand that. Where is it in your body? Wow You said I'm saying what how's it affecting your perspective? How's it affecting? What would you normally have done? Normally, it's snap. So you're not judging you just simply Validating and and analyzing and saying well if this is the case, okay, how can I see this differently in this moment? Do I really want that energy in me? Do I really you know? Want all this negativity and yes, it's making me mad and okay. Let me calm myself down Let me do a little bit of breathing and let me mention quickly about the breathing We all talk about breathing everyone talks about breathing But do we realize that when you breathe in molecules of oxygen? You also take in the energy of your mindset and by that I mean If I oh, I didn't get x done if I stay in that mindset I'm still breathing but i'm taking in a lot of negative energy. I'm breathing in negative energy i'm breathing short breaths and now carrying in a molecule of oxygen lots of molecules of oxygen along with this energy pattern That's picked up as a brainwave in our body and ekg in our heart or blood flow etc And it's disruptive. It's chaotic. It's messy versus if I say oh, okay You are upset. You are negative. You are whatever it is. You are people pleasing. Let's look at your four signals Let's do a little bit of a mind shift Let's see how you know, there's maybe something here that can help me our conflicts is now But you know what i'm not going to take this in i'm going maybe that person's having a bad day Maybe there's something I can learn but this is okay.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
You're okay And then when I shift like that and then I breathe The next breath that I come that goes in takes in a healthy flow of energy attached to those oxygen molecules going to the Brain and the heart etc, etc So i'm still taking in the same content that same angry statement from that person or that self-critical thought all that I didn't get x done. It's still going in but instead of it I didn't get x done It's rather.

Oh, I didn't get x done Deep breath and as you take a deep breath in take another sip Oh And breathe it out and I feel peaceful peace is fuel. Okay still didn't get x done But now i'm in a place where I can say oh I did get x done. I did get y done So what did I do? I'm in a better place now because i've changed the energy I've got the problem mind working with the parent mind working with wisdom. I've changed the energy in the brain I've changed the energy in my heart. I've changed the energy flowing through my lungs Everything has shifted in my physiology in that few 10 seconds. It took me to 10 20 30 however long it takes you to that all of that i've done you can do In 60 seconds sometimes even less i've completely shifted my neurophysiology. I've changed the energy And thoughts are their thoughts become packets of energy That move in with oxygen into the brain and rewire the brain or add networks to existing networks and in the body So you're directing neuroplasticity in the moment and the more you practice that the more self-regulated you become You generate peace in the midst of chaos peace is fuel.

I can still be upset. I can still be crying I can still be as mad as hell But I'm No, i've changed my i've changed my mindset. I've done this shift I've honored that and i'm not in that mad as hell point where i'm going to be reactive I'm in a mad as hell place where I can actually process and decide what my next move is going to be with wisdom And my the anger is now shifting and changing into something that's positive and not disruptive So i've changed it from a hurricane to just a mild storm to eventually just some raindrops

Melanie Avalon
I love it so much. And one of the things I really liked about the book is for all the different things you provide, kind of like you're doing right now, very specific things to do in the moment. So like one of the things that really stuck with me, because you mentioned it again here was like fixing something. And I don't remember exactly which one it was about, but it was saying like, you ask yourself, you know, can I fix this now? And it's like, if you can, then fix it now. And if you can't, then schedule a time to fix it later. And then, you know, like that is that. And it's just like things like that, that are just so freeing.

And what's something else that was illuminating for me as I was the difference between overthinking versus deep thinking, especially when it comes to ruminating, because I think I struggle a lot with, like, I'll try to find solutions in my mind, and my mind will go over all these potential options. And I and I struggle knowing if that's productive, like, am I actually, you know, deep thinking and coming up with a solution? Or am I just ruminating? It's really hard for me to know the difference personally.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
I'm so glad that you brought that up because you know that is that's right. I think it was one of the second or third it's chapter four. So it was like the third thing because the first couple of chapters are intros. So this is something that people really battle with and that chapter I've titled help my brain won't shut up.

Now your brain is a media host. So whatever your mind tells it to do it does. So when you say my brain won't shut up well it can't because your mind won't get under control. So messy mind, messy brain, messy body, messy life. So that's just you know overthinking, overthinking versus deep thinking. So overthinking leads to spirals of chaos. You feel messy. So visualize if you don't have a toddler or if you don't know what a toddler does just go watch a video of a toddler and you can find a lot of those on YouTube and watch how they into everything all the time and then use that analogy. They without the parent they are all over the place and you know that's just maybe it's sort of a net. Think of it also you could think of a hamster on a wheel. Get some sort of visual in your head. Overthinking doesn't go anywhere. That hamster on a wheel is going nowhere. That toddler zooming all over the place without guidance is going nowhere. It's not progressive, it's destructive. It's not giving you any sense of peace. Peace whereas deep thinking leads to a solution and so it's in that moment in that 60 seconds it's once again always validating on it. Then shift into the mind shift and do whatever neurophysiological thing helps you with that concept of the breathing that I explained about. But if the big question to ask yourself about overthinking versus deep thinking is am I going somewhere with this? Is my anxiety increasing? Am I getting solutions? Am I feeling worse or better? That is overthinking. Deep thinking is okay this is not making me feel wonderful but I can see it because of I can see a potential solution. I could see where this could go. I've got a sense of peace even if I've got tears running down my eyes. The peace is the fuel. I feel like it's going somewhere and a great way to do that is to in that moment once you validate and whatever in your mind shift portion that middle part so you validate and honor the first part mind shift is that second part and then your mind hacks like a you know the breathing or visualization or something in that part where you do your mind shift is ask answer and discuss with yourself.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
You ask yourself you know is this going somewhere? Is this making me feel better?

Am I just going round in circles? And it sounds so obvious but when you stand back and ask yourself those you step into the parent mind you access wisdom and you find solutions versus oh my gosh this can happen then that's going to happen then this is going to happen then this will go there and this will go and you feel that stand back and say look what this is doing to you look what can you hear the change in my tone of my voice if you can you and not if anyone can train themselves to almost observe yourself overthinking and and evaluate the impact that it has on you even practice in a practice session recall a moment when you have done some overthinking and then from there it's easier to distinguish what the deep thinking is deep thinking will find a solution even if it's not in this moment or today or tomorrow there's the certainty I'll find a way to deal with this there's a way forward and it also doesn't you don't find yourself getting drawn back into regret cycles which is another chapter overthinking very often I mean they're very closely linked you'll see crossover in all the chapters when one over thinks you get to it often can be to regret which also keeps you stuck on that hamster wheel so to ask answer discuss ask answer discuss puts you into that control position where you can deconstruct and reconstruct and mind shift the other thing is and this is a simple way of doing it I'll just give you another technique is reading fiction reading stories reading that there's so many great series out there I mean we know that ekatar was like a big deal recently and whatever there's just so many amazing fiction find you all what you always own it always have a book around somewhere even if it's on kindle physical book and when you find yourself overthinking even if you read for five minutes diving into fiction immediately helps you access the non-conscious which is where your creative imagination is you're forced as you read about those characters and they describe the scenarios you activate imagination and creativity and that immediately opens the door to the non-conscious which is where your wisdom is and your solutions are and where your problems are highlighted in a very good structured and healthy way and where peace resides and kindness resides and compassion resides and so the fiction allows you to think deeply and but first of all it stimulates creativity creativity then takes you into deep thinking then you start identifying with the characters and you start going into this very relaxed place and that then can help you come back to that overthinking and and in that you're in a better state of mind and you now can evaluate in a more self-regulated way what you're overthinking to oh this is overthinking I'm overthinking this to this or that whatever let's unpack this and you may have to do you know maybe a 10 minute little block or maybe you need to do a 63 day block where you work just on the typical patterns that you tend to overthink what is the main thing that you tend to overthink what is the main category where is it coming from and you just spend 10 minutes a day going through the five step neurocycle process and over 63 days you would have rewired that yes 63 days sounds like a long time but that's what it takes to rewire proteins and chemicals and networks and energy patterns and practice and stabilize so that it doesn't become something that keeps coming back

Melanie Avalon
Well, this is beyond incredible. I think listeners can see now why this book is going to be such a helpful tool for so many people.

So friends get it now. It's called Help in a Hurry, Simple Tips for Finding Peace When You're Overwhelmed, Anxious, or Stressed. And actually, we didn't even barely touch on, you know, everything in the book, but one of the last things you talk about in the book is the role of gratitude as a tool that's appropriate and perfect because the last question that I ask the guests on the show every time, and it's because I'm so passionate about it as well, is what is something that you're grateful for.

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
I love that question too. Well, Gratitude, by the way, is one of those ones that taps into the non-conscious. It activates that wise mind that we have, the biggest, deepest level of our humanity. And so something that I'm very grateful for is that I work with all my family, all my kids and my husband are in the business, which is amazing. And so I get the chance to really work, because working with family, you can get irritated and you can get, you know, you can, there's all kinds of things. It's easier to experience those kinds of things with family. So I'm so grateful because I get to practice being a decent human and self-regulating and making the mistakes and being open and all of us helping each other. That's something I'm very grateful for.

And then I'm so grateful as well for the fact that I can do this work. It's working on the mind. The mind is an area that has been neglected in the general, the way that we approach mental health and humanity in general. We talk so much about, you know, the physical body, which we should, because the brain and body are what the mind use, but they won't present. The mind is 99%. So I'm really grateful that I can spend my entire career and all my books helping people understand the power of the mind that is, you know, our thoughts. It's who you are. It's your life force. And we just don't realize how much power there is in understanding the mind. It makes life so much easier to navigate. So I'm really grateful for that.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much. I'm also so grateful for your family a shout out to Dominique and your daughter.

I love her so much. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing. These books are incredible. I can't wait for listeners to get this book and we'll have to have you on again for your next book every every two years. I guess it looks like

Dr. Caroline Leaf:
Well thank you so much Melanie and I'm sorry we didn't get to all your wonderful questions, you sent me everything, I had them all up in front of me and but you know what we kind of covered a lot anyway with the general principle. We do research so thoroughly and ask such a lot of great questions so thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. This was absolutely wonderful, and I appreciate everything you're doing so much. So thank you, and we will talk again soon.

Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information and resources, you can check out my book, What Win Wine, as well as my supplement line, Avalon X. Please visit melanieavalon.com to learn more about today's guest. And always feel free to contact me at contact at melanieavalon.com. And always remember, you got this.