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‚ÄčThe Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #8 - Scott Nelson

Scott Nelson is a cofounder of Joovv, the first company to develop a full-body light therapy device designed for convenient, in-home use. Prior to starting Joovv, he spent his entire professional career in leadership positions with some of the largest medical device companies in the world, including Medtronic, Covidien and Boston Scientific. In his spare time, Scott is also the host of Medsider Radio, a top-ranked medical device podcast.


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Joovv.com/melanieavalon
Social: @joovvsocial on IG and FB

SHOWNOTES

2:30 - JOOVV: Use The Link Joovv.com/Melanieavalon With The Code MelanieAvalon For A Free Gift From Joovv, And Also Forward Your Proof Of Purchase To Contact@MelanieAvalon.com, To Receive A Signed Copy Of What When Wine: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine!

3:20 - LISTEN ON HIMALAYA: Download the free Himalaya App (www.himalaya.fm) to FINALLY keep all your podcasts in one place, follow your favorites, make playlists, leave comments, and more! Follow The Melanie Avalon biohacking Podcast in Himalaya For Early Access 24 Hours In Advance!  You can also join Melanie's Exclusive Community for exclusive monthly content, episode discussion, and guest requests! use the code mELANIE to get your first month free!

04:35 - Paleo OMAD Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

04:50 - BUTCHER BOX:  Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, And More, All Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended! Butcher Box Provides Access To Nutrient Rich, Affordable Meat And Seafood Shipped Straight To Your Door! Go To Butcherbox.com/Melanieavalon And Use The Code Melanieavalon For $20 Off Your Order, And Free Grassfed Fed Ground Beef For Life!

‚ÄčMelanie's Blog Post With Scientific Studies: The Power Of Red Light: Burn Fat, Boost Energy, Revitalize Skin, Grow Muscle, Calm Pain, Sleep Deep, And More!

6:35 - Scott's Background To Develop Joovv 

10:35 - How Does Near Infrared/Red Light Therapy Work?

13:20 - How Red Light Charges Your Cells Mitochondria For Enhanced And Energy And Function 

16:45 - The Viscosity Of Metabolic Water

17:40 - Red vs NIR Therapy 

20:00 - Red Light And Circadian Rhythm: The Rising And Setting Sun

22:25 - Should You Choose NIR Or Red?

24:35 - Red Light Therapy For Detox And The Immune System

27:35 - How Does Red Light Compare To Dry And Infrared Saunas?

30:45 -Red Light Therapy For Weight Loss 

32:35 - DRY FARM WINES: Low Sugar, Low Alcohol, Toxin-Free, Mold- Free, Pesticide-Free , Hang-over Free Natural Wine! Use The Link DryFarmWines.com/melanieavalon To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

34:05 - BEAUTY COUNTER:  Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Go To Beautycounter.com/MelanieAvalon! To Receive A Free Beauty Counter Gift From Melanie, Exclusive Offers And Discounts, And More On The Science Of Skincare, Get On Melanie's Private Beauty Counter Email List At MelanieAvalon.com/BeautyCounter!

34:30 - Red Light Therapy And Targeted Fat Reduction And Keto Synergy 

37:00 - Red Light And Deuterium Depletion - Clearing Out Sludge!

44:10 - Red Light For Hypothyroidism 

46:55 - How Does Red Light Therapy Fix So Many Things?

49:55 - Red Light For Muscle Recovery, Pain, And Inflammation

53:10 - Red Light And The Microbiome

55:15 - Red Light Therapy And Appetite 

59:15 - Red Light Therapy And Longevity

1:00:35 - Where To Start With Joovv? How Long To Treat?

1:06:50 - JOOVV: Use The Link Joovv.com/Melanieavalon With The Code MelanieAvalon For A Free Gift From Joovv, And Also Forward Your Proof Of Purchase To Contact@MelanieAvalon.com, To Receive A Signed Copy Of What When Wine: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine!

1:07:25 - Can You Overdo Red Light Therapy?

1:09:00 - Joovv For Ambient Light, Mood, And Sleep

‚ÄčTRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends. I am thrilled about the guest I have today on the podcast. If any of you guys are listeners of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, you're going to know that I am super duper obsessed beyond belief with my Joovv device. Devices now, I have a few of them. I talk about it all the time. I know listeners write in and give us feedback and it's just something that I am really, really obsessed with. And we have the co-founder of Joovv, Scott Nelson on the podcast. By the way, Joovv is red light and near infrared therapy if you didn't figure that out from the title of this episode. But Scott, wonderful to speak with you again and to have you back and I'm super excited for today, so thank you for being here. 

Scott Nelson:
Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to the conversation and excited to chat about this again with you, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. So to start things off, would you like to give listeners a brief overview of your personal history and how you came to develop the Joovv devices, how you got into the whole red light, near infrared therapy, that whole world?

Scott Nelson:
Sure. I spent the majority of my professional career in the traditional medical device space and more specifically the peripheral vascular arena. So for those that kind of aren't or haven't ever spent time in that world, which I'm assuming most of the listeners here, I was dealing with products like arterial stents and venous thrombectomy catheters, much, much more traditional kind of products within the kind of Western healthcare space. That's actually why we are in Minneapolis as part of a job relocation with Covidien at the time. 

Scott Nelson:
So yeah, that was my wheelhouse. And so this was back in early 2015 when my wife and her sister purchased, I'm using air quotes here because we're not on video, but they purchased a red light therapy package at a local spa in Minneapolis. Saw really good results after going consistently to the spa for four to five times a week over the course of about two to three months. And the benefits that they noticed most was reduction in eczema, reduction in stretch marks due to multiple pregnancies, et cetera.

Scott Nelson:
So they were really excited about the therapy but weren't overly excited about having to go to a spa that often on such a consistent basis. And it wasn't overly budget friendly as you can imagine either. And so my wife's sister, Melissa, convinced her husband, Justin, who's an engineer to build her some sort of prototype that they could use at home. Because nothing really existed on the market at the time when it comes to full body red light therapy and she just didn't want to go to a spa. 

Scott Nelson:
So Justin began to kind of build out some prototypes and they looped in me because of my med tech background and I was super skeptical at first. I thought it was complete woo woo science. Here I was kind of doing the real medical stuff and then they were super stoked about this red light therapy thing. And so I was naturally skeptical, but I started digging into the research, starting with PubMed and was quickly blown away at the sheer amounts of published peer reviewed literature demonstrating the wide variety of benefits when it comes to light therapy. 

Scott Nelson:
In the world of academia it's referred to as photo biomodulation. And so I was quickly blown away and then like I mentioned before, there wasn't really any other products on the market that were full body in nature and delivered the type of power that's needed in order to receive a clinically relevant dose of energy when you're using clinical studies as a baseline reference point. And so we didn't really intend to start a company at that time. It was just kind of one of those things where the science is really, really compelling and there weren't really any other products on the market that sort of met the specifications that we were looking for. 

Scott Nelson:
And so that's kind of what started us on our journey with Joovv. That was back in 2015 and then we ended up launching our first product in February of 2016, it's kind of been a wild ride ever since. 

Melanie Avalon:
That's definitely a crazy ride. I remember when I first learned about red light therapy, it was a few years ago. And same with you, I was like, "It can't be." It seemed very woo woo. What can red light do? And then when I first found out about it, I went old school kind of similar to making your own version of order these bulbs online and try to set up my own thing. And I wasn't really sure what I was doing but since then I've, like you, done research and just realized how scientific and amazing and the scientific benefits of red light therapy have really been clinically studied and it's almost shocking what it can do. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I think it's really important for listeners to understand how the red light therapy and near infrared therapy works, what's actually going on. And then it makes more sense why it can have so many therapeutic health benefits as well as the skin benefits and things like that. So would you like to jump into that a little bit? What exactly is "red light therapy"? There's also near infrared therapy. Your devices are capable often of doing both. So for listeners, what's going on here? 

Scott Nelson:
Sure. And just to circle back around on your comment about the clinical data that you noticed, the compelling clinical data. One of the last products that I launched at Medtronic, it was a class three device that was aimed at closing down a vein for the purposes of treating chronic venous insufficiency. And that particular product, although it was a class three device, was only supported by three distinct studies, one of which only had a decently sized patient population.

Scott Nelson:
And for comparison purposes, light therapy, especially continuous wave light therapy, which is what our devices deliver is supported by over 200 double blind placebo controlled randomized trials. So the science is really, really legit. In fact, it's really the only therapy of its kind that I know of that's supported by this much peer reviewed science. So although it sounds super woo woo, there's no doubt if you give it a chance and really kind of just start to peel back the layers. I'm pretty convinced you'll find it equally as compelling as me and as Melanie. 

Scott Nelson:
But back to your original question about the mechanism of action. This field is still relatively new, so we're continuing to learn more about the different mechanisms at play all the time. But the core thing that's going on is really at the cellular level. And so these wavelengths of light red and then near infrared, and I'm sure we'll get into kind of the differences here in a bit, but these specific wavelengths have a unique ability to resonate with certain enzymes during cellular respiration. And what that allows your cells to do is produce more ATP energy. 

Scott Nelson:
And because of that core mechanism of action, which is probably the most well understood within the space, that leads to a whole host of clinically proven benefits. Everything from faster muscle recovery to better skin health through increased collagen production to enhanced cognitive function, to better sleep, to faster weight loss or fat loss, to enhanced peak athletic performance. I mean, it literally sounds like a late night QVC commercial but the big difference here is that all of those benefits that I just mentioned are supported by peer reviewed published medical science. 

Melanie Avalon:
So in a way it's like charging the battery of yourselves, would that be an appropriate comparison? 

Scott Nelson:
Exactly. Another guy from our team likes to use the analogy of a solar panel, right? So the overwhelming majority of the listeners here understand that or have seen a solar panel on a house especially in warmer climates. Well, that solar panel is collecting energy from the sun and reusing it elsewhere. Our bodies are sort of similar in that we have the ability to sort of capture energy from the sun and repurpose it for other things. And at a very high level, that's what light therapy is in essence doing. 

Melanie Avalon:
So I have a weird question, but this is something I've been thinking about. So how are the mitochondria both creating energy but not being drained by creating more energy? 

Scott Nelson:
That's an interesting question. And when we say enhanced energy production, at the end of the day, these wavelengths of light actually help restore normal cellular function. And so as an example, I think that's probably the better way to think about it. And what I mean by that is there's four phases of cellular respiration. And we're talking about just one mechanism at play. There's other mechanisms that probably are less understood, but this core mechanism of action is, sort of the magic happens during the fourth phase of cellular respiration.

Scott Nelson:
And when our cells are under stress, the process that happens during cellular respiration is disrupted. And one example would be excess nitric oxide, which can be a good thing, but excess nitric oxide has a tendency to bind with oxygen during cellular respiration. That actually halts ADP which is a precursor to ATP. And so your cellular respiration is disrupted when our cells are under stress and these wavelengths of light actually help break the bond between nitric oxide and oxygen restoring normal cellular function. 

Scott Nelson:
So I think instead of thinking about how your cells are producing more energy, but they're also consuming more energy, I think the better way to think about is it's restoring actually a more normal cellular function. 

Melanie Avalon:
So in a way it might be like the difference between, maybe people can stick with me here, like an old broken car that's not really running well, so it doesn't have energy, it's not moving, it's just kind of sitting there versus a nice, expensive, brand new car that you're really having to take care of. You're having to give really nice fuel to, and it's going to be performing. It's going to be creating more energy, generating more energy, doing more, performing more, which in a way seems like it takes more energy, but in the end it's performing way better and longevity wise is probably going to last longer even though it's requiring more energy in a way. 

Scott Nelson:
You got it. In essence, your cells are operating with more efficiency. I think that example is a good one. And I mentioned different mechanisms of action and I don't want to get too sidetracked here, but there are certainly other mechanisms at play. It's pretty well understood that you do get better cell signaling right through these wavelengths of light red and near infrared light. You get enhanced gene transcription, which actually creates different signaling pathways, which is why these wavelengths of light have been shown to enhance cognitive function. 

Scott Nelson:
I mean, those are some other mechanisms. There's another actually researcher that we work with here in Southern California, Dr. Laszlo Boros. Although the science isn't as robust, his theory is that these wavelengths of light actually change the viscosity of metabolic water which basically allows for more efficiency along the electron transport chain during solely respiration. I mean, there's some different theories at play and there's even one more, which I think we'll get to maybe when we talk a little bit about a weight loss with red and near infrared light. But there's certainly different mechanisms that play. But I think the important point is to think about these types of wavelengths and their ability to sort of induce a more efficient cellular energy production. 

Melanie Avalon:
Got it. That makes sense. I think I too often am pondering the nature of longevity and expending energy versus using energy and aging. And so that's where that's all coming from. I guess we should probably tackle some of the basics so listeners have even a better idea of what's going on. So what is difference between red light versus near infrared? Because those are the two different types of light offered on the Joovv devices. 

Scott Nelson:
Sure. And that's probably one of the most common questions that comes up and from a macro perspective, they both have very similar mechanisms of action. But the major difference is in regards to depth of penetration in your body. So most of the energy from red light is absorbed in the dermis and epidermis of your skin. So that's why it tends to be really good for skin related benefits. And really, any sort of superficial tissue treatment or as near infrared light actually has the ability to penetrate further into your body. 

Scott Nelson:
In fact, near infrared can penetrate through bone. The energy does dissipate through bone as it travels through it, but that's why it near infrared light is often studied for deeper tissue treatments like muscle recovery and joint pain relief and cognitive function. So that's the biggest difference between the two. But if we even take a step further back, one of the core concepts that I'd love to leave your audience with is just a basic understanding of the fact that our bodies respond and metabolize based on exposure to different wavelengths of light. 

Scott Nelson:
In fact, the entire light spectrum is very, very broad and similar to how our bodies respond and metabolize different macronutrients, right? From proteins to carbs to fats, and at different times of the day, right? So most of us know that if we eat a high glycemic carbohydrate at night, that's not great because our insulin spikes as a result of that where if you kind of understand that, our bodies do respond in a similar fashion to these different wavelengths of light and red and near infrared light fall within a very narrow window that photo medicine researchers refer to as the optical window or the therapeutic window. 

Scott Nelson:
And these wavelengths of light have a unique ability to enhance the efficient productive energy at the cellular level, which we just discussed. So, not all light is created, our bodies respond differently to various wavelengths of light. But red and near infrared light are supported by the most scientific literature for the wide variety of benefits that we kind of chatted about just recently here. 

Melanie Avalon:
So the red hue color that we see, for example, with the rising and setting sun, is that related to this red light? Is that similar wavelengths? 

Scott Nelson:
Yeah, definitely, definitely. In fact, if you kind of harken back to our ancestors 150, 200 years ago, they didn't use artificial lighting to illuminate their houses or their workplaces, right? They, for the most part, relied on the rising and setting of the sun or maybe even candle light, whereas you compare that to the lives that most of us live now, it's drastically different. There's a well known stat that Americans now spend 93% of our time indoors under artificial light and that's just such a drastic change in a relatively short amount of time. 

Scott Nelson:
And so we're asking our biological systems to adapt very quickly to a drastic change in light exposure. When you look at the natural sunrise and sunset, there's an overabundance of red and near infrared light on a percentage basis and when the sun rises and then again when it sets, if you're really looking to optimize the use of light therapy, that's when we generally recommend using it either in the morning or in the evening to mimic the natural sunrise and sunset because that's when you find a red and near infrared light most concentrated. 

Melanie Avalon:
With my own Joovv devices, I cannot tell you how much I love turning it on when I wake up in the morning and then having it on at night. I thought it was just me kind of in my head that really put me into a zen state. But I found it to be so therapeutic and then I've seen the studies on the relationship to the circadian rhythms and then also to mood. So it's definitely scientifically supported as well. It's all in my head because it's my feelings, but it's not all in my head I don't think. 

Scott Nelson:
I don't think so either. And when you sort of understand that most of us over time, our grandparents, our great grandparents, et cetera, they adapted to the sunrise and sunset and our lives are drastically different. So it would make sense just like it makes sense to probably eat a whole food centric diet, it makes sense that we would be using wavelengths that are kind of found in the natural sunrise and sunset of the day. 

Melanie Avalon:
Another question about the wavelengths before we move on from that. So since near infrared penetrates deeper into the tissues beyond the red light, does it on the way through create the same benefits of the red light since it's passing through anyway? Or is it more specifically targeting deeper within? So for people who are really wanting to address skin issues, for example, would they benefit equally from near infrared and red light or would they actually want to get the red light because that's going to focus more on the outer layer? 

Scott Nelson:
I mean, I would tend to think you're going to get more bang for your buck with red light, because again, most of that energy is going to be absorbed by cells in the dermis and epidermis of your skin. So that's not to say that some of that energy from near infrared light is absorbed by those same layers of skin, but you're probably going to get faster and better results with red light alone. But most of the customers that use our devices use both wavelengths and that's why we give people option of choosing red and near infrared or both. But most of the time people are using both because you do kind of get sort of the superficial tissue benefits but also you kind of reap the benefits in your deeper tissues as well by using near infrared light. 

Melanie Avalon:
That makes sense. Because with my device, I typically use both wavelengths at the same time. But then when you guys released the Go, the Joovv Go, which is the miniature Joovv that you can bring with you, it's available in red or near infrared. And so I was receiving questions about, which one should I get? And then there's a lot of conversations that's being stimulated and some people were saying that while you should get near infrared because it's going to do the same thing as red plus more. 

Melanie Avalon:
But that makes more sense hearing it from you now, it's like where is the bulk of that energy ultimately penetrating? And I can see how the red light, you would get more bang for your buck with the skin layer versus the deeper with the near infrared. So that's good. I mean, like I said, with my Mini, I keep them both on. So I love it. Love it, love it. One other reason I am really, really interested in red light therapy personally is for detox, which also a lot of people are often thinking that that's a woo woo thing detox. 

Melanie Avalon:
But I think more and more we're realizing how important it is to support our body's natural detoxification systems, drives me crazy because they'll say things like, "Your body naturally detoxes so you don't need to do anything beyond that." And I'm like, "Well." We're on the struggle bus today, I think, with our modern environments. And I think we could definitely support all of our natural detox that we can. So do you have studies or any information about how red light therapy, infrared therapy can support our natural detoxification? 

Scott Nelson:
Yeah. And I think you bring up a really good point in the sense that people use the word detox in a wide variety of ways. So it kind of depends on sort of your understanding of what detox truly means and I guess specifics are within the context of red and near infrared light therapy. It's been pretty well demonstrated that these wavelengths of light help your immune system shift from what's called an M1 phenotype to an M2 phenotype meaning it shifts from a pro inflammatory state to an anti-inflammatory state. 

Scott Nelson:
And at the end of the day, what that means is these red and near infrared wavelengths of light actually help boost your immune system into something that's anti-inflammatory. And so you do get a little bit of a natural sort of, I'm using air quotes again, detox-like effect by simply strengthening your immune system to fight toxins, to fight bacteria, et cetera. So it is a little bit more of a natural way to detox. So it's not like a sauna where you feel like you're sweating out certain toxins. It's not like that because these wavelengths of light actually don't produce much heat at all. But they do help your immune system become stronger to naturally fight some of the unwanted things that are kind of circulating throughout our systems. 

Melanie Avalon:
That's something I've been really fascinated with, especially recently, is just the concept of the immune system and how basically with any invader or any toxin or anything that our immune system is dealing with, it can respond to that and it can do so in an inflammatory way or in a more anti-inflammatory way. I've been researching a lot the work of cold exposure and Wim Hof and things like that. And there's been fascinating studies about how with any given toxin or bacteria or virus that the immune system can respond, like I said and like you said, in a more anti-inflammatory or inflammatory way.

Melanie Avalon:
So by using red light therapy to modulate the immune system, that's just the best of both worlds with everything because then you're just priming yourself for being able to deal better with the daily things that we're hit with all the time as far as environmental toxins, bacteria, viruses, all the things. And then you brought up something else, I'm glad you brought this up. You were comparing it to saunas and I think that's another thing that a lot of people wonder what is the difference exactly between red light therapy, near infrared therapy far and far infrared therapy, which is often used in a lot of saunas compared to saunas because then there's infrared saunas but then there's also dry saunas, I think people get a little bit confused about everything. 

Scott Nelson:
You got it. There actually are a wide variety of different saunas. I think most of us here in the US are probably more familiar with dry or infrared saunas as they're often referred to as. But if you would go to Europe, you might see a much more wide variety of saunas, especially wet or steam based saunas. At the end of the day, the goal with the sauna is to induce heat stress, right? That's why you're supposed to get hot in this sauna. The intention is to induce heat stress on your body, which is drastically different than light therapy or photo biomodulation. 

Scott Nelson:
I would like to compare it to the equivalent of cardiovascular exercise and weight training. They're very different, both can be very good, but they're just different. You don't find someone going out for a jog but also doing weight lifting at the same time, you know what I mean? So that's probably the best way to kind of think about saunas and light therapy is they're both good, but they're both very different. And a good dry sauna that's using infrared light to induce heat stress, most of that infrared light actually falls or should fall in the mid to far infrared range. 

Scott Nelson:
And just to kind of take a step back, the window of infrared wavelengths is actually very broad. It stretches anywhere from about 800 nanometers to 20000 nanometers. So it's actually very broad. And the wavelengths within that infrared spectrum that generate the most heat are mid and far infrared wavelengths. And the infrared that we're talking about when it comes to light therapy is actually near infrared. So near infrared light can still penetrate pretty deep into your body but does not produce heat. That's not the goal with light therapy. 

Scott Nelson:
And so some people have this kind of misconception of using a near infrared sauna and that's sort of a contradiction in terms because near infrared wavelengths of light just don't produce heat. So it's just good and healthy to kind of understand that both sauna based therapy and then light therapy or photo biomodulation are just two distinctly separate things. 

Melanie Avalon:
So they all have their place.

Scott Nelson:
They do. I would argue that light therapy or photo PBM or photo biomodulation is supported by way, way more science than sauna based therapy. But saunas are good too. There's a lot of compelling evidence that people should be using saunas on a consistent basis. So both are good, just different. 

Melanie Avalon:
I did the sauna today and I've had my Joovv today, so it's all good. I would probably have my Joovv on right now if the fan weren't a little bit noisy for recording. Another big topic that a lot of people wonder about weight loss and targeted fat reduction in red light therapy or near infrared help with that. 

Scott Nelson:
In fact, there's some of the more well-structured studies actually that you'll find in kind of the light therapy space are specific to weight loss or fat reduction and it might be a little bit easier to think about it in the context of body contouring, but this is yet another different sort of mechanism of action as to how this actually works. Most researchers that have studied this to any great degree have reported that these wavelengths of light actually help create a more porous membrane within your adipose cells, your fat cells.

Scott Nelson:
And by creating a more porous membrane, those cells actually shrink, right? Almost like a sponge. They just simply shrink because they're more porous in nature. And so you get this reduction in fat cells, which is why you get kind of this contouring effect with the use of red and near infrared light. And so there's some really, really compelling data you wouldn't normally think about weight loss and experiencing weight loss or fat reduction with these wavelengths of light. But the science is certainly compelling. 

Scott Nelson:
In addition to what I just mentioned, there's also this up regulation in your metabolism as well when using these wavelengths of light. Because as we discussed earlier, your cells become more efficient at what they do with exposure to red and near infrared light. So a couple of different mechanisms at play, but without a doubt the science is pretty compelling. It's sort of a nice added benefit to using light therapy or red light therapy on a consistent basis. Because I think everyone wouldn't mind dropping a few pounds. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I think we're always told that you can't spot reduce fat. That basically you got to just go on a fat loss diet or a fat loss lifestyle and it's going to leave from where it wants to leave, when it wants to leave based on hormones or genetics or whatever. But it seems like in theory, just because I'm always thinking about hacking fat burning and things like that, that with red light you could in theory, like you said, it's more like contouring but you could target very specific fat cells or deposits on your body and in a way free them up to be used as energy. Because when I was reading through the different studies it was interesting because there was a lot of proposed mechanisms for how the red light affects fat cells. 

Melanie Avalon:
But like one thing I was reading that it makes the cells basically, I think like you said, more porous and then the fatty acids can enter the bloodstream and then you can, in theory, burn them off. So that would be a way that you could almost spot reduce fat. And I was thinking in my head, if you paired it with something like a dietary approach, like intermittent fasting for example, or a ketogenic diet or something like that where you're really in a fat burning mode, that may be pairing that with light therapy could be a way to really target fat stores. Do you know if there are any emerging studies on the ketogenic diet and pairing it with red light therapy or intermittent fasting and red light therapy? Have you heard of anything like that? 

Scott Nelson:
I haven't seen anything specific to intermittent fasting and red light therapy. I can say that we're actually enrolling participants in a study right now with a group in Minneapolis, Bristlecone Medical, studying actually the synergy between full body red light therapy and people on the ketogenic diet. So our controlled group is actually people on a normal healthy diet and then our experimental group is keto plus press red light. We'll likely work in another segment of just the ketogenic diet to compare and contrast those results. 

Scott Nelson:
But I think this topic is really interesting as a whole. One of the researchers I mentioned earlier in our conversation, Dr. Laszlo Boros, he's part of a group here in Southern California called the Center for Deuterium Depletion. He works with other doctors that are part of that group, Dr. Anne Cooper, Dr. Que Collins. But Dr. Boros, he's an MD and tenured professor at UCLA. He actually believes that, and I think I mentioned this earlier, red and near infrared light actually helped change the viscosity of metabolic water, which by changing the viscosity of metabolic water, you're able to naturally lower deuterium levels.

Scott Nelson:
And if you have too much deuterium in your body, those heavy hydrogen isotopes, I should probably describe them as, can actually break the nano motors in your mitochondria. And when those nano motors break, that halts cellular respiration. And by changing the viscosity of metabolic water, you're actually able to prevent those nano motors from breaking. At the end of the day, you're actually naturally lowering your deuterium levels. 

Melanie Avalon:
So can we define deuterium? 

Scott Nelson:
Yeah. And I probably should have started there, but deuterium is sometimes referred as heavy hydrogen. It's a hydrogen isotope and hydrogen is the most common sort of element found in the universe, especially in our bodies. And when you have too much of it basically that heavy hydrogen isotope gets stuck in those nano motors within your mitochondria. And think of nano motors almost like cylinders in a car engine, right? They're spinning fast, and when this heavy hydrogen or deuterium, when your cells are trying to process this, they get stuck in those nano motors.

Scott Nelson:
And as a result, those nano motors break. And so that's why when you look at a ketogenic diet or even when you intermittently fast, you're naturally lowering your deuterium levels in your body. So there's less sort of nano motor breaking going on, for lack of a better description. And red light acts in a very synergistic way because you're able to change the viscosity of metabolic water, you're able to naturally lower those same deuterium levels, helping to restore a more normal, more efficient cellular energy production. And so there's a lot of synergy. 

Scott Nelson:
I mean, a lot of what I'm just going through is fairly theoretical and I'm certainly not an expert in this field by no means. It's only through working with some of those researchers that I mentioned earlier, that we're learning a little bit more about these fields. But we hope to prove out this theory in that clinical study that we've kicked off recently with Bristlecone Medical in Minneapolis. So it's certainly an interesting topic and I think these theories will showcase to be true through some of this clinical work 

Melanie Avalon:
That is so fascinating. So by regulating the deuterium levels, I mean, it sounds like it's really keeping things clean in a way, keeping things from building up throughout the cells. 

Scott Nelson:
You got it. When you have a lot of deuterium in your body, it's almost like kind of sludge, if you will, right?

Melanie Avalon:
That's what I was thinking. I think about that all the time. 

Scott Nelson:
And the sludge kind of gets caught up in your cells. And the mitochondria, if you harken back to your high school biology days, they're like the powerhouses of the cell, the engines of the cell. And when your engines are kind of full of sludge, they don't work as well. And so for people that are sort of new to kind of understanding deuterium and what that means for our health, that's kind of the best way to think about it, it's sludge that gets caught up in the engines of our cells. And intermittent fasting, eating a ketogenic diet, being exposed to red and near infrared light on a consistent basis, all those types of modalities or lifestyles help to lower and then balance out your deuterium levels which lead to just a more fit, more efficient cellular energy production. 

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly. I was going to say it reminds me of something with intermittent fasting, like autophagy, keeping things kind of cleared out or with a ketogenic diet just running cleaner so you're not creating all that sludge, that oxidative stress and all those byproducts that your body has to do. 

Scott Nelson:
We should just rename this episode, how red light can reduce your sludge. You know?

Melanie Avalon:
I might do that. Perfect. And I'm also really, really fascinated by that study you're doing. That's really exciting. I don't know how much you can actually talk about it, so will it be people on a keto diet doing red light and people on a normal diet also doing red light? 

Scott Nelson:
Yes. So it's part of a series of studies that we've actually recently kicked off, some of which are with this group in Minneapolis that I mentioned Bristlecone medical, but we'll be kicking off a few studies in the month of May and June with another group in San Paulo, Brazil studying full body light therapy for muscle recovery and peak athletic performance. But yeah, these two particular studies. We're really going to look at hormonal health as kind of the core in point, specifically in men testosterone to estrogen ratios and then in women estrogen to progesterone ratios and how ketogenic diet plus red light therapy can help balance those out. And so right now, the two sort of cohorts that we're enrolling are people on a normal diet and then people on a ketogenic diet plus red and near infrared light therapy. 

Melanie Avalon:
Will the normal diet people be doing red light therapy?

Scott Nelson:
Yes, they will be. Yes, you got it. 

Melanie Avalon:
I just wanted to clarify. 

Scott Nelson:
So eventually we want to have another cohort that's just on the ketogenic diet as well. So you'll have a ketogenetic with and without red light, but eventually we'll get to that point. But one of our core sort of theories as a company is that full body light therapy is optimal. And so in all of these studies, participants will be using full body light therapy. And so, we're pretty excited about that as well as kind of really showcasing the overall health benefits of full body light therapy versus just a targeted approach 

Melanie Avalon:
For the people that for any studies that you do when it would be with or without red light therapy, would you want to construct it so that it's with red light therapy or completely without or with red light therapy and then with a sham red light so they would still think that they were doing red light?

Scott Nelson:
Eventually, these particular studies that we're not using now won't involve a sham like you mentioned. It's hard to do a sham with red light. We'd probably have to do it with near infrared light since it's invisible to the naked eye. It's a little bit easier to conduct a trial like that. But nonetheless, yeah, we do eventually hope to... The overall topic of using our full body devices in clinical studies is something that we'll continue to do more of in the future. We're super passionate about that, really proving out some of these things that we've been talking about. We want to prove them out in clinical studies. 

Melanie Avalon:
I love that and I love that you brought up the hormonal aspect as well. That's fantastic. I know also when I first got into red light therapy a few years ago, I was initially intrigued by it for two things, for hair growth because my hair has always been very right then. But also for hypothyroidism because I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism and I saw things here and there about how red light therapy could benefit that. 

Melanie Avalon:
And it's really fascinating, some of the studies I've read since then where they have had people undergo red light therapy who had hypothyroidism and some people have been able, in the studies, to go off of their thyroid medication, which I'm not saying that go off your thyroid medication with your Joovv device. But I'm saying there's definitely a lot of clinically studied information out there about how these wavelengths can affect hormones, thyroid, everything. 

Scott Nelson:
And there's certain buckets of published clinical science in this arena that are really, really robust. And what I mean by that is when you look at the skin health benefits that come from using red light therapy, the reduction in joint pain and inflammation, the faster muscle recovery, athletic performance with near infrared light therapy as an example, there's endless and endless amounts of studies that demonstrate positive benefits in those categories. And then there's others that are sort of emerging, one of which is this concept of hormonal health.

Scott Nelson:
And I would say in comparison, the research is still very early. But yeah, it's pretty compelling nonetheless, especially with thyroid health and some of those patients being able to completely come off. In fact, I think it was over 50% in one of the trials that I'm thinking of. It was over 50% of the participants actually completely came off their thyroid medication. And then the other segments of those participants actually saw a significantly reduced amount of thyroid medications that they had to consume by simply exposing the thyroid gland to red and near infrared light.

Scott Nelson:
So I would say it's early, but it's really, really promising. And so that's a category that we as a company want to study more. It's one of the reasons some of our first studies are involving hormonal health because we've received so much anecdotal feedback from thousands of customers around how... Some have gotten their blood work done, others haven't. It's more anecdotal but across the board, this concept of better or more balanced hormonal health from using red and near infrared light therapy is really consistent feedback that we get. And so that's one of the reasons we wanted to again, kind of prove this out in a clinical study for ourselves. 

Melanie Avalon:
And that really speaks to the foundational mechanisms going on here with the therapy. Because I mean clearly red light is not giving you thyroid hormone. There's no thyroid hormone in light. But by changing the way the body functions and actually healing it on a cellular level and upgrading that, that makes sense. It makes sense why it can help so many things. Because it can seem like too good to be true. Like red light can help you burn fat. It can help your thyroid, it can help your hair growth, it can help your muscle recovery, it can help your sleep, your mood. 

Melanie Avalon:
And it's like, "Really? How can one thing do all of that?" But when you see it from the foundational level of, well it just makes sense because it's helping your whole body perform better. It's addressing energy production and how your body's actually functioning so that that, I mean in a way "explains" how it can have so many benefits. Kind of like with intermittent fasting, which another passion of mine or a healthy dietary approach, why those can have such broad ranging therapeutic and health benefits. 

Scott Nelson:
You got it. That's a question that often comes up especially with people that are new to this type of therapy and you start mentioning all of the benefits, it sounds too good to be true and that's when the cynicism starts to set in. But it is one of the really cool things about operating in this arena is that there's so much science that supports it that it's easy to understand why someone might be cynical. 

Scott Nelson:
But once you begin to look at the science, most people think even if they just give it a little bit of the time of day, so to speak, they walk away feeling really compelled to try it. And then the reason that there's such a laundry list of benefits is because some of the core mechanism of action at play is really inducing more normal cellular function especially with the lifestyles we live, we're exposed to a lot of different stressors all the time. And so by helping our cells function in a normal capacity, they're able to do kind of what our bodies were intended to do, right? 

Scott Nelson:
Grow hair, stay relatively lean, recover faster from movement, et cetera, et cetera. So it begins to sort of make sense when you take a step back and kind of connect the dots but certainly understand why someone might be a little bit cynical when first kind of learning about light therapy. 

Melanie Avalon:
It's like the gift that keeps on giving. So you may want it for one thing, but it's really amazing because then it can help so many other things.

Scott Nelson:
You got it.

Melanie Avalon:
So if you're on the fence about trying out red light therapy, just saying for listeners, don't be on the fence even if you're skeptical about it helping, probably there's something that you want to target with it. Even if you're skeptical, there are so many other potentials beyond that of things it can help that you really can't go wrong. 

Scott Nelson:
You got it. 

Melanie Avalon:
Something you did touch on that we probably should touch on as well, is muscle recovery and also pain and inflammation. So people who are doing sports exercise or for people who have injuries and pain, what do you see with red light therapy and near infrared therapy benefiting that? And is that more for the near infrared that you would want to focus on with pain and inflammation or what would be the best route to go about addressing that? 

Scott Nelson:
Probably near infrared light. It has definitely been studied more often with these certain categories. And these areas, muscle recovery, joint pain and inflammation reduction, there's so much science that supports benefits in these areas. In fact, our customers that buy our devices whether they want faster muscle recovery, relief from joint pain, they tend to notice results that much faster. And as an example, we have a lot of professional and performance athletes that are using our devices. And they're typically so in tune with how their body responds to a certain workout. 

Scott Nelson:
Well, within a few treatments of using red and near infrared light, they're just recovering faster, right? They feel a lot differently the next day. So there's a lot of anecdotal feedback, but when you look at the science, the science is very, very clear that these wavelengths of light help your muscles recover faster. And the cool thing about joint pain and really recovery in general is that, red and near infrared light has been shown to actually help both with acute and chronic inflammation. 

Scott Nelson:
So it helps your body heal faster from an acute injury, but also because of that shift from an M1 to an M2 phenotype in regards to your immune system that we kind of chatted about earlier, you get benefits when it comes to chronic inflammation as well. So to your point, Melanie, I think you summed it up well. It is the gift that kind of keeps on giving because it has profound benefits in both the acute and kind of chronic phases of injury.

Melanie Avalon:
That was one of the more recent things that I started using it for. It's interesting. So I personally have a lot of IBS type problems and food reactions and things like that and I always have this sort of weird feeling in my abdomen, which I'd always associate it with food and I was thinking it was a microbiome type thing. But I experimented and started using my Joovv device on that area and I was shocked.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because I've been such a fan of Joovv and red light and I've talked about it all the time and I've experienced the benefits, but I was like, "It won't actually do anything for this feeling that I get in my abdomen." But I started using it and it went away. I was like, "It actually does do that." And I keep preaching it. But the more and more I try it, the more and more it really lives up to what is supposed to do. 

Scott Nelson:
That's cool. 

Melanie Avalon:
I remember we were talking on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, which that was a while ago. I forgot how long ago that was, but you had mentioned briefly that there were some emerging studies about how red light therapy affected the microbiome. Do you know if there's anymore data for that? 

Scott Nelson:
There hasn't been much additional data published and I think it's been probably nine months ago maybe that we last recorded a podcast. But unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of advancements in that arena. That's actually another category that we hope to explore further with our devices. But for those that haven't listened to that particular episode or are kind of new to this concept of using red and near infrared light to help establish a more healthy microbiome. 

Scott Nelson:
It's very early, but a group of research researchers and in Sydney clearly showcase this kind of concept with the use of near infrared light, which is completely counterintuitive because you wouldn't expect near infrared light to penetrate that deep or at least the energy would be significantly dissipated, penetrating that deep into the body. But they proposed kind of a very metabolic mechanism of action for these wavelengths of light and their ability to help establish a healthy gut microbiome, which is a little bit of a different mechanism. 

Scott Nelson:
But that kind of ties into our theory as a company in that when irradiating your entire body with these healthy wavelengths of light, you'll get those systemic benefits that are advantageous across a wide variety of areas, more so than you would with just targeted treatments. I mean, there's certainly some advantage to targeted treatments, whether it's weight loss or reducing joint pain and inflammation in a certain area. But ultimately full body light therapy is optimal for overall health. And I think what those researchers from Australia demonstrated was that's clearly the case, the more systemic the dose of energy is that it's probably better for overall health. 

Melanie Avalon:
Well, going off of that, so if red light therapy is up regulating metabolism and energy generation, have you heard of any studies or any feedback about red light therapy and appetite? I noticed this very definitively the other day. This was like an epiphany I had two days ago actually. Because I am recently in the middle of a move and my stuff got locked up in the moving company. They say it'll be there in five days, that didn't happen. 

Scott Nelson:
Right. 

Melanie Avalon:
So I didn't have my stuff for over two weeks and I had my Joovv Go, but I didn't have my bigger device and I was dying by the way. And my stuff finally came, I got my Joovv device back. But I've been noticing that, this could be completely anecdotal, but without having my daily Joovv in my life and everything. I mean, it could be a lot of things, but I was struggling a lot with cravings and appetite and things like that. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I just got my Joovv back again and was feeling a little bit hungry because I do intermittent fasting every day, but I was feeling this weird craving food felt like things were struggling. I turned on my Joovv and I promise you my appetite just died. It killed my craving. I was shocked. That could be completely placebo, it's very possible. It could be completely anecdotal, but I'm just wondering if you've heard that from anybody else. 

Scott Nelson:
I haven't personally. And I was just looking at kind of this database of research that we've curated, I think it's over 3000 studies or something like that. I just did a quick simple search. I didn't see anything in that database either, but that's certainly interesting. And I don't want to diminish the fact that it could have very well been a result of using red and near infrared light. But I'm not aware of any clinical studies that kind of showcase that.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, to do list then.

Scott Nelson:
Add that to the list, right? 

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, I guess it just makes sense so that anything that would boost metabolism and help with energy regulation, I mean, it would make sense to me that it could help with appetite. Kind of like people think that they'll be really starving, for example, when they're fasting or if they're on a calorie restricted ketogenic diet that they would be really hungry. But because those different approaches can up regulate your metabolism and make you better at generating energy, oftentimes appetite diminishes compared to the situation where you're ironically eating all the food all the time, yet you're always starving because you're not effectively using that energy, just storing it 

Scott Nelson:
Seems like the theory would hold up when studying that out for sure because of what you just mentioned. I mean, anytime you sort of get a boost in your metabolism, whether it's through some sort of stimulant, coffee, some workout supplement, something along those lines, usually appetite is suppressed. So that definitely could have been going on for sure. It would be interesting to prove that and definitely maybe that should be added to the list for sure. 

Melanie Avalon:
Some more really quick questions. Do you notice red light therapy burn calories on its own? I know a lot of people love the idea of passive weight loss. 

Scott Nelson:
I'd have to look at some of the data with respect to weight and fat loss and whether that was a diagnostic metric that was evaluated. But again, based on theory, your cells are producing more energy so they're also consuming more energy at the same time. They're becoming more efficient at what they do. So by consuming more energy and producing more energy as a byproduct, you would naturally think there would be some caloric burning that was going on. But without digging into the clinical data, I'm unaware of whether or not that was an actual metric that's been studied out. 

Melanie Avalon:
And do you think red light therapy holds potential for longevity? I mean, I don't know even know what type of study that would be, but as far as how red light therapy and near infrared therapy can affect lifespan, I don't even know what that would look like. 

Scott Nelson:
I mean, longevity is kind of a broad category, if you will. I mean, there's no doubt that there's a laundry list of different studies that have showcased the ability of red and near infrared light to sort of act as an anti-ager, so to speak, across a wide range of ages. Not just for vanity purposes but also through the prevention of other chronic diseases. So I guess it kind of depends on your definition of longevity. But a lot of sort of longevity related subjects that sort of filter up under that bucket are definitely impacted in a positive way by red and near infrared light. 

Melanie Avalon:
It sounds like definitely, especially what we were talking about with the sludge earlier, just keeping things clean, not creating all that oxidative stress and just improving immunity and inflammation and everything, I mean, it seems pretty primed for improving all the longevity factors or the anti-aging factors. So specifics for users looking to purchase their own red light therapy device, what should they look for? Because I know with Joovv specifically you can get on their website, you guys have a lot of different versions, so you have your Joovv Go, which is red light or near infrared and it's chargeable. 

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, when I didn't have my Joovv device for two weeks, I had my Go and I would use it until it drained and then I'd charge it and then I'd use it until drained in the night. It was just like a cycle. So I'm excited now that I have my Mini again, which plugs and that one you can sit on your desk and I'm about to order a Solo, which I'm really excited about. But you also do have the larger full body units and the cool thing is you can buy them and you can add on so you can slowly build up. 

Melanie Avalon:
I'm talking to you, you obviously know this, but for listeners, you can buy the devices and slowly build a larger system as you go. But where should somebody start if they're new to this whole thing, they want to get a device? Should they start small? Where do you recommend that they start? What should they look for? And also if we could also just answer some brief technicalities, like how long should they use it for when they get their device? 

Scott Nelson:
I would even say if you're new to this topic of using light to enhance overall health, the first step I would say is just try to get a little bit more natural sunlight, even if it's just 10 to 15 minutes a day. All of us don't get enough of it. And what I mean by that is, I'm not talking about going into the beach once every couple of weeks and getting fried. That's not what I'm talking about. But just being more cognizant of getting more natural light exposure is a healthy thing that's completely free. 

Scott Nelson:
But if you have the type of lifestyle that doesn't afford that, whether it's kind of work related or you live in a climate that just doesn't get enough natural light on a consistent basis, supplementing with a high quality red light therapy device is a great next step. And to your point, Melanie, that yeah, there are some key things to look for. I'll mention a few that probably stand out or that are more critical than others. One would be making sure the device delivers the right wavelengths of light. 

Scott Nelson:
So making sure it does in fact deliver red and near infrared wavelengths, the wavelengths that have been proven time and time again throughout all of these clinical studies that we've been talking about. So that's probably step one. Another key component is evaluating the power output of a device. You want a device that delivers clinical grade or medical grade power because that equates to shorter treatment times. It's one of the key things that we designed our devices for simply because most people just don't have the time to use a device for 30, 45 minutes, an hour a day, that's not sticky enough. 

Scott Nelson:
Most people will give up over time. So we wanted to produce a device that you really only need to use it for about 10 minutes a day to receive a clinically relevant dose of energy. And the cool thing about our devices is that all of the power specs have been independently tested and verified by one of the most renowned photo diagnostic labs in the country. And so making sure the device delivers a fair amount of power and has been tested and confirmed by a third party is pretty important. And then the other thing that I'd probably call out is kind of the modular nature.

Scott Nelson:
There's a fair amount of light therapy devices that are sort of one and done meaning that you can buy it once and it's small and you can't really add to it over time. And really quite honestly, the Joovv Go kind of fits into that category. It's a super cool device. It's completely wireless and rechargeable, delivers the same power as our larger devices, but it's not modular in nature. So you're kind of limited to targeting just relatively small areas on your body where the rest of our devices are modular in nature.

Scott Nelson:
And when I say modular, it's kind of like Lego blocks. You can start with one device and then they connect together, both physically and electronically. So you can build out that full body system over time. And because they connect together electronically, one device then controls the whole system, which is kind of a cool feature. So it's not one and done. You can start small and kind of go big over time if you want to. So that's kind of the unique nature of our devices. And we designed them that way because like I said earlier, we believe fundamentally that full body light therapy is optimal. That's the best way to do it if you can. And so we designed our devices to make that relatively accessible for most people. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I will say for listeners, one of the things that sold me was you guys do have a wonderful guarantee, a money back guarantee. So if listeners are not seeing the benefits from their device, they are not out a pretty penny, they are returnable. But I know when I got mine, I just became more and more obsessed and now I just want all of them, all of the units. 

Scott Nelson:
You're right. We were the first company to sort of offer that 60 day money back guarantee and it's funny when I think about when we first launch our devices, we were a little bit afraid about that. This is a new category and are people just going to return their devices? Made us a little bit nervous, but to this day it's a very, very small percentage of people that take advantage of that which is kind of cool to see. 

Scott Nelson:
And I think that really speaks to the fact that this stuff works. We don't see very many people returning their purchase within that first 60 days. So I think that's kind of cool. But it's there if needed. If you buy it and it just doesn't work for you or doesn't fit into your lifestyle, you can simply return it for a full refund. But we feel pretty confident that you'll get some benefits if you use it consistently. 

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, definitely saw that. We do have a special offer for listeners. So if you go to joovv.com/melanieavalon and use the code, Melanie Avalon at checkout, you will receive a free gift from Joovv. So thank you so much for that offer. That's really wonderful. So make sure you use that link if you do want to get your own device, like I did. So obsessed. It's kind of crazy. I will just ask you personally. So you said that one of the benefits is that it's so therapeutic that you can use it for a shorter session. Can you use it too much? I kind of always have mine on. 

Scott Nelson:
It probably depends on how you're using it. I would say, first and foremost, it's really hard to overdo it. And really when I say overdo it, I mean there is probably a more of a law of diminishing returns. After a certain amount of time, you're not probably reaping a whole lot of benefits. But like I said, it kind of depends on how you're using it. So if you're using the device based on our sort of recommendations meaning that you're either sitting or standing from the device at a distance of about three to six inches for 10 minutes, you're going to receive a clinically relevant dose of energy. But if the device is three feet away, the actual amount of energy that's reaching your body is very low. 

Scott Nelson:
So in that scenario, you could use it to illuminate a room at night just for healthier, so you're sort of using healthier wavelengths of light instead of bright blue light and not disrupting your circadian rhythm at night. In that sense, no, there's no sort of dangers at all of overdoing it. But it kind of depends on how you're using it but it's really, really hard to overdo it and there's really no downstream negative ramifications. It's really just more of a law of diminishing returns. 

Melanie Avalon:
I will say guys, when you have the device, if it's one of the larger ones that you can really add light to a room, having it on in the evening is so wonderful. It's so wonderful. It just illuminates the room with this warm, comforting glow. It's the best way to just wind down your evening. I'm obsessed. I can't wait till I get the larger Solo device and I can really integrate it into the light hacking of my apartment. I'm so excited 

Scott Nelson:
A lot of customers, when they first hear about that, they're like, "Wait a second, I'm going to start doing that." Because it's pretty profound how using that type of light at night that sort of mimics the sunset, it's so much more calming. And there's already published evidence that showcases these wavelengths of light help your body shift from a sympathetic state to more of a parasympathetic state, helping your body just to relax and prepare for bedtime. So just one of the many benefits of using these wavelengths on consistent basis. Who doesn't want better sleep? 

Melanie Avalon:
I know. And I really feel it instantly. There's so many different practices that people can do to try to switch from your sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system and really enter that rested mode. And I think a lot of times it requires some winding down and some time. But for me, I'm always shocked. If I come in and it's been a long day and I'm hurried and frantic or whatever, I turn on the light and I change the lighting in the apartment with the Joovv and I feel this instant... it's like a click. 

Melanie Avalon:
And I don't know if that's just because I've conditioned myself to do that, but it's amazing. Cannot recommend it enough. I do have one last question, not related. Well, it might be related. I guess we'll see. So I'm becoming more and more obsessed with how healing and wonderful for life gratitude is. So my question for you is what are you most grateful for at this moment? 

Scott Nelson:
That's a really good point. I'm a big believer that focusing on what you're grateful for leads to a lot of ancillary benefits. It helps to reset kind of your framework. So that's cool to hear that you're into that as well. But I am most grateful probably for my family. My wife who I've been married to for almost 20 years now. And then we've got four really healthy kids. We were both gone actually for almost a week for the Paleo f(x) conference. And getting back home reminds me how much I am grateful for all of us that we're healthy, we're in the same home. It could be a lot worse, so I'm super grateful for that. 

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. It makes me smile. When I first decided to start this podcast, I was like, "I need a question to always end with," because there's so many questions that you could ask, but I was like, "What question would really just reframe things and end on a really positive note with a smile?" So... 

Scott Nelson:
And I say that and I'm not trying to sound cliche, but that's such a good practice. It seems like I go through periods where I'll practice it more consistently, but the times in my life where I don't want to say journaling, it's not necessarily journaling. It's just like taking time to pause and I like the idea of writing that kind of stuff out. It's so much better to serve as a mental reset or refresh. There's so many things that you are so easy to gloss over, but when you take some time to actually think about certain things in your life, it just leads to so many other emotional benefits. 

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's amazing. I recommend everybody integrate it into their lives, especially when I learned that at the exact same moment, you can't be in a state of gratitude and also be in a state of fear at the same time.

Scott Nelson:
Such a good point.

Melanie Avalon:
So you can really turn off negative emotions and fear and everything by just having that moment. So, speaking of, I'm super grateful that you came on this podcast. Thank you for all that you're doing, thank you for creating these devices. I am so grateful for my journaling device, so I'm grateful for the work you're doing, the studies that you have upcoming, and I really appreciate the time that you took to talk with us today. 

Scott Nelson:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me on again, Melanie. It's always a pleasure chatting with you. I can tell that you go deep with your research, so that's really cool to see. So thanks again for having me on. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. And I'll talk to you next time. 

Scott Nelson:
Sounds good.

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